I had the age advice twitter account link me to the errata that doesn't mention it, and they confirmed the current errata covers the 6th printing - so this wording change has been left off the errata. Nothing From Jeremy yet (or Mike Mearls who I also looped in).
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
New Wording
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.
I think the reason this hasn't made it to an errata or anything is because the rule has been clarified, not changed. Since everything occurs after the semi-colon it seems reasonable that the two hour limitation applies to all of the light activities, reading, etc. Meaning that even with the old reading, you still must sleep for 6 hours as you can only perform light activity for 2 hours, regardless of what that light activity is.
Hence I still maintain Crawford was wrong in his original Sage Advice Column and the change in wording reinforces that.
I am intruiged by the old vs. new wording. As it stands under the old wording, only standing guard had a 2 hour limit as defined by the commas. Under the new wording, it implies anything "not sleep" falls under the 2 hour limit.
The new RAW completely remove any functionality of Elven Trance, even as flavor, since the amount of time they can spend awake is now the same as any other creature.
Related note: I assume whatever ruling is determined here will also apply to Warforged?
For more info on why the comma is important in defining the old definition, google "Maine comma lawsuit".
Careful guys, specific still beats general- if trance says that the elf who spends 4 hours trancing gets the benefit of "8 hours of sleep" than that means that they A. Gain the benefits of 6 hours of sleep (because 8 hours of sleep includes 6 hours of sleep) for four hours of trancing. and B. (what we need to check) would actually finish a long rest after four hours of trancing (because sleeping by 8 hours by RAW would be no less than six hours sleeping and no more than 2 hours of light activity) which means they do get an advantage in finishing long rests in four hours.
Combined with the sage advice however, this seems like one of those situations where "benefit" isn't a rules term, and it refers to the benefit of sleeping in the fiction (rather than the game's actual resting mechanics.) but then, that leaves nothing other than "more trancing" for the remaining two hours of the rest for it to be valid... which technically works, but is a little convoluted when they could have changed the trance feature to call out a 6 hour trance, or mention that they can light activity for the rest of the 8 hours.
The real issue here, is that they linked sleeping and long rests in a way they weren't before- in that long rests are now a benefit of sleeping, rather than 8 hours of whatever.
I don't think they changed anything. Sleep was previously still required as light activities could only be two hours. The change only clarified that.
It makes no sense one light activity has a limit and the others don't. Since watch was part of the light activity set (indicated by the colon) it is most reasonable to believe the indication was for all light activity to be two hours not just watch.
The new wording would support this. It's more likely they would make a clarification rather than a change in rules at this point.
I don't think they changed anything. Sleep was previously still required as light activities could only be two hours. The change only clarified that.
Old Wording: A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
In order for light activities as a whole being no more than two hours there needs to be an extra comma - or standing watch (COMMA) for no more than 2 hours. The way it reads is as a list:
Reading
Talking
Eating
Standing Watch (this option can be for no more than 2 hours).
The new wording changes it to what you infer, hence it's a big change and does not appear in the errata (which is what annoys me the most).
It makes no sense one light activity has a limit and the others don't.
It actually makes sense to me. It is saying "this activity counts as light activity, unless you do too much of it." which completely makes sense to me; I can play a few songs on my guitar in a row and that's no big deal (it is light activity), but if I play longer and harder such as if I were performing a set for a crowd, it's not a light activity anymore.
If anything, the thing that makes no sense about the resting rules is that the other activities which are light activity are not each given their own time limits at which they are no longer "light activity" - having worked jobs that are basically just talking for an 8 hour shift, I can say that even talking can be draining if you do it too long.
Of course, I think it is actually fine that only standing watch - the only activity on the list that the player/character has any incentive for doing as long as they possibly can - has a limit presented, because it's the only activity on the list that a player would ever care how much they are doing it beyond assuming a sufficient amount of it can happen during a rest.
I don't think they changed anything. Sleep was previously still required as light activities could only be two hours. The change only clarified that.
Old Wording: A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
In order for light activities as a whole being no more than two hours there needs to be an extra comma - or standing watch (COMMA) for no more than 2 hours. The way it reads is as a list:
Reading
Talking
Eating
Standing Watch (this option can be for no more than 2 hours).
The new wording changes it to what you infer, hence it's a big change and does not appear in the errata (which is what annoys me the most).
Unless I'm right :) then it wasn't a change but a clarification and hence no need was given to include it in the errata. Basically the only reason it needs to be in the errata is if it was a change. If it wasn't a change then there was no need.
Granted there probably was a need since Sage Advice takes a different approach. If I had to guess what happend was the person in charge currently (mearls?) approved a clarification and was unaware what Crowford had written in Sage Advice.
Or maybe that's why the wording was thought to need to be changed. I highly doubt this is something they would bother to change, unless it was being misunderstood and causing issues. Hence, it is most likely a clarification. I'm not sure if clarifications tend to make it to the errata.
I don't think they changed anything. Sleep was previously still required as light activities could only be two hours. The change only clarified that.
Old Wording: A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
In order for light activities as a whole being no more than two hours there needs to be an extra comma - or standing watch (COMMA) for no more than 2 hours. The way it reads is as a list:
Reading
Talking
Eating
Standing Watch (this option can be for no more than 2 hours).
The new wording changes it to what you infer, hence it's a big change and does not appear in the errata (which is what annoys me the most).
Unless I'm right :) then it wasn't a change but a clarification and hence no need was given to include it in the errata. Basically the only reason it needs to be in the errata is if it was a change. If it wasn't a change then there was no need.
Granted there probably was a need since Sage Advice takes a different approach. If I had to guess what happend was the person in charge currently (mearls?) approved a clarification and was unaware what Crowford had written in Sage Advice.
Or maybe that's why the wording was thought to need to be changed. I highly doubt this is something they would bother to change, unless it was being misunderstood and causing issues. Hence, it is most likely a clarification. I'm not sure if clarifications tend to make it to the errata.
The problem is that it is a change - the way commas work (especially in the previous sentence structure) is that there is a very different meaning to how the text reads. That sort of change should absolutely have errata as it has roll on effects (like the Elf trance ability).
Also, Jeremy Crawford is the Lead Rules Developer - no rule in the book is there without him being across it. I don't see how any wording change can have gone in (that would change it to such an extent), and Sage Advice is always the first level of clarification to the rules.
If it was meant to always have the intention, fine - but there needs to be errata to state this. Going by the previous 5 printings plus the SRD, light activity has no time limit except for standing watch. The 6th printing states that any light activity can be performed for a maximum of 2 hours - That's a HUGE change.
I'm not home with my book but the first sentence now reads
"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."
I'm not home with my book but the first sentence now reads
"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."
Right, but Aaron is asking to verify that it exists with a pic from the rulebook.
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
New version:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity such as reading, talking, eating, or standing.
Conclusions:
1) In the old version the sleep was not imperative and the 2 hours limitation was intended only for the watch.
2) In the newer version the sleep is imperative and the 2 hours limitation is intended for all the light activities.
3) To me, the limitation of the 2 hours is intended to limit not the light activities but to give a minimum to the sleep. Since the elves can get a full sleep in 4 hours, the remaining 4 hours of the long rest can be spent in light activities.
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
New version:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity such as reading, talking, eating, or standing.
Conclusions:
1) In the old version the sleep was not imperative and the 2 hours limitation was intended only for the watch.
2) In the newer version the sleep is imperative and the 2 hours limitation is intended for all the light activities.
3) To me, the limitation of the 2 hours is intended to limit not the light activities but to give a minimum to the sleep. Since the elves can get a full sleep in 4 hours, the remaining 4 hours of the long rest can be spent in light activities.
Without clarification a side effect of this new wording is that 8 hours of sleep fulfills the conditions for a long rest, which means that a four hour trance that gives the "same benefit" as 8 hours of sleep would also confer the "benefit" of a long rest because sleep is now the defining trait of a long rest, I do agree that this probably isn't intentional given the previous Sage Advice- but it's definetly RAW for the moment (not that the RAW is particularly important when we know the RAI and Sage Advice is practically rules.)
I'm not home with my book but the first sentence now reads
"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."
Right, but Aaron is asking to verify that it exists with a pic from the rulebook.
Which I can't do without having the book in front of me.
I'm now confused as to how this change made it into the book, since it contradicts all the clarifications we've received about the rules of a long rest and how the elven trance feature is meant to work.
I theorize that someone was tasked with making sleep a mandatory part of a long rest, and did so with a wording that caused unintended additional changes. I guess we'll have to wait and see if this change and all its implications was an intentional change of mind or not.
Editing to add some thoughts: This new wording of long rest means one of two things;
1) Elves can complete a long rest in 4 hours thanks to their trance feature, despite that previous developer statements specifically said otherwise.
2) Elves can't complete a long rest at all, unless they ignore their trance feature and choose to sleep, because if they trance for 4 hours they can then do light activity for 2 hours, and fall 2 hours short of the minimum 8 needed for a long rest - at least, unless the new printing that included this stealth errata to the long rest rules also includes stealth errata to the trance feature that overrides the new limitation on light activity.
Either way, feels a lot more to me like someone made a mistake than like a deliberate and considered change.
So I've had some tweet responses from Jeremy (I'm sure he hates me now with my million questions about this topic).
Jeremy: The substance of the rule hasn't changed. The wording has changed for the sake of clarity.
Sorce: The original read as only 2 hour time limit was on standing watch, not the rest. How does this work for elves now? Plus sleep is now a requirement. To make it the same there would have needed to be a comma (in the original) after standing watch. Now the meaning has changed and without any errata.
Jeremy: That is, indeed, how some people read the ambiguity in the original sentence, which could also be read the intended way, hence the change. Even without the comma, the original sentence can be interpreted the same way as the new wording. We don't normally put non-substantive changes in the errata document, but we'll add this one, since enough people have been confused about it.
So, it appears that the Intention was that a Long Rest was always meant to be 6+ hours of sleep, and no more than 2 hours of light activity (which includes watch, reading, etc.).
Jeremy: A long rest is 8 hours for an elf, but the elf can spend much of it on watch and doing light activity, while others sleep.
Since the original intention with the rules is what the latest printing is, I would then take it as Elves can trance for 4 hours and light activity for 4 hours. (I've asked for thoughts on this - hopefully he doesn't hate me enough to respond).
I feel like there needs to be a clarification that Elves still need 8 hours for a long rest as the six hour sleep requirement for a long rest and the Elves Trance ability replacing 8 hours of sleep.
I know my interpretation makes no difference whatsoever, but here it is anyway.
A long rest takes 8 hours.
Most races, such as humans, want to spend all 8 of those hours asleep, but can spend up to 2 of those hours awake and standing watch, if they have to.
Elves only have to spend 4 hours unconscious (in trance) but still have to rest for 8 hours and can still only spend 2 hours standing watch.
Therefore; whenever possible, elves will spend 4 hours in trance and 4 hours reading/whittling/composing/whatever, but everything else (within reason) will spend 8 hours asleep. If setting a watch appears necessary, no one can watch for more than 2 hours, and elves take that time out of their 4 hours of light activity.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I had the age advice twitter account link me to the errata that doesn't mention it, and they confirmed the current errata covers the 6th printing - so this wording change has been left off the errata. Nothing From Jeremy yet (or Mike Mearls who I also looped in).
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
Careful guys, specific still beats general- if trance says that the elf who spends 4 hours trancing gets the benefit of "8 hours of sleep" than that means that they A. Gain the benefits of 6 hours of sleep (because 8 hours of sleep includes 6 hours of sleep) for four hours of trancing. and B. (what we need to check) would actually finish a long rest after four hours of trancing (because sleeping by 8 hours by RAW would be no less than six hours sleeping and no more than 2 hours of light activity) which means they do get an advantage in finishing long rests in four hours.
Combined with the sage advice however, this seems like one of those situations where "benefit" isn't a rules term, and it refers to the benefit of sleeping in the fiction (rather than the game's actual resting mechanics.) but then, that leaves nothing other than "more trancing" for the remaining two hours of the rest for it to be valid... which technically works, but is a little convoluted when they could have changed the trance feature to call out a 6 hour trance, or mention that they can light activity for the rest of the 8 hours.
The real issue here, is that they linked sleeping and long rests in a way they weren't before- in that long rests are now a benefit of sleeping, rather than 8 hours of whatever.
I don't think they changed anything. Sleep was previously still required as light activities could only be two hours. The change only clarified that.
It makes no sense one light activity has a limit and the others don't. Since watch was part of the light activity set (indicated by the colon) it is most reasonable to believe the indication was for all light activity to be two hours not just watch.
The new wording would support this. It's more likely they would make a clarification rather than a change in rules at this point.
The new wording changes it to what you infer, hence it's a big change and does not appear in the errata (which is what annoys me the most).
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
It actually makes sense to me. It is saying "this activity counts as light activity, unless you do too much of it." which completely makes sense to me; I can play a few songs on my guitar in a row and that's no big deal (it is light activity), but if I play longer and harder such as if I were performing a set for a crowd, it's not a light activity anymore.
If anything, the thing that makes no sense about the resting rules is that the other activities which are light activity are not each given their own time limits at which they are no longer "light activity" - having worked jobs that are basically just talking for an 8 hour shift, I can say that even talking can be draining if you do it too long.
Of course, I think it is actually fine that only standing watch - the only activity on the list that the player/character has any incentive for doing as long as they possibly can - has a limit presented, because it's the only activity on the list that a player would ever care how much they are doing it beyond assuming a sufficient amount of it can happen during a rest.
Well I mean I don't think the two hours applies to each individual activity but them as a collective whole.
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
Is anyone going to get around to snapping that picture of the differing text?
I'm not home with my book but the first sentence now reads
"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."
here
Old version:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
New version:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity such as reading, talking, eating, or standing.
Conclusions:
1) In the old version the sleep was not imperative and the 2 hours limitation was intended only for the watch.
2) In the newer version the sleep is imperative and the 2 hours limitation is intended for all the light activities.
3) To me, the limitation of the 2 hours is intended to limit not the light activities but to give a minimum to the sleep. Since the elves can get a full sleep in 4 hours, the remaining 4 hours of the long rest can be spent in light activities.
Thanks for the image, Filcat.
I'm now confused as to how this change made it into the book, since it contradicts all the clarifications we've received about the rules of a long rest and how the elven trance feature is meant to work.
I theorize that someone was tasked with making sleep a mandatory part of a long rest, and did so with a wording that caused unintended additional changes. I guess we'll have to wait and see if this change and all its implications was an intentional change of mind or not.
Editing to add some thoughts: This new wording of long rest means one of two things;
1) Elves can complete a long rest in 4 hours thanks to their trance feature, despite that previous developer statements specifically said otherwise.
2) Elves can't complete a long rest at all, unless they ignore their trance feature and choose to sleep, because if they trance for 4 hours they can then do light activity for 2 hours, and fall 2 hours short of the minimum 8 needed for a long rest - at least, unless the new printing that included this stealth errata to the long rest rules also includes stealth errata to the trance feature that overrides the new limitation on light activity.
Either way, feels a lot more to me like someone made a mistake than like a deliberate and considered change.
So I've had some tweet responses from Jeremy (I'm sure he hates me now with my million questions about this topic).
So, it appears that the Intention was that a Long Rest was always meant to be 6+ hours of sleep, and no more than 2 hours of light activity (which includes watch, reading, etc.).
For Elves - Jeremy said this back in 2014 (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/08/28/elf-trance/)
Since the original intention with the rules is what the latest printing is, I would then take it as Elves can trance for 4 hours and light activity for 4 hours. (I've asked for thoughts on this - hopefully he doesn't hate me enough to respond).
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
I feel like there needs to be a clarification that Elves still need 8 hours for a long rest as the six hour sleep requirement for a long rest and the Elves Trance ability replacing 8 hours of sleep.
I know my interpretation makes no difference whatsoever, but here it is anyway.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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