The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.
Wait. The sleep during a long rest is mandatory. It is stated clearly in the PHB. The SRD does mention the sleep, but not the minimum amount of time for the sleep.
So sleeping is necessary. The PHB says 6 hours minimum. For elves is 4 hours of trance and trance does not mean whatchful.
I see you have the same copy of the PHB as I do. We have stumbled upon a change in printings. One edition of the printings states the same thing that the SRD does, another edition (the most recent I think) actually does list requirements of sleep. Technically the Elf's Trance ability should be reflected to six hours now, and clarification that an Elf can still only engage in a watch for two hours (or 4 whatever the intent is).
Indeed. Ok we can debate on the watch time, but the sleep is mandatory during a long rest.
This depends on which copy of the PHB you have, as apparently in older printings sleep isn't required for a long rest. Probably just assumed that is when most characters would sleep though. Unfortunately I think this is really important in the discussion about the Elf's Trance.
This depends on which copy of the PHB you have, as apparently in older printings sleep isn't required for a long rest. Probably just assumed that is when most characters would sleep though. Unfortunately I think this is really important in the discussion about the Elf's Trance.
Seems really weird that a previous printing does not mention the sleep during a long rest.
This depends on which copy of the PHB you have, as apparently in older printings sleep isn't required for a long rest. Probably just assumed that is when most characters would sleep though. Unfortunately I think this is really important in the discussion about the Elf's Trance.
Seems really weird that a previous printing does not mention the sleep during a long rest.
Regardless, last printing and SRD do.
The current Compendium does not mention sleep as part of the requirement for a long rest either, as well as the Player Basic rules I downloaded previously. They indicate sleep can be done during that time, but do not state it as a requirement.
This depends on which copy of the PHB you have, as apparently in older printings sleep isn't required for a long rest. Probably just assumed that is when most characters would sleep though. Unfortunately I think this is really important in the discussion about the Elf's Trance.
Seems really weird that a previous printing does not mention the sleep during a long rest.
Regardless, last printing and SRD do.
It's only the last (6th run) printing that has it - the previous 5 and the SRD do not. Which leads me to believe that new Errata doc is going to be hitting shortly.
A Long Rest is at least eight hours of 'downtime', at least six of which must be sleep OR light activity - this includes reading, or talking. It then says that you can spend two hours on watch, but no more than two.
Sage Advice clears the matter up entirely. It is a completely legitimate source, from WotC, that opens with this:
'Official rulings on how to interpret unclear rules are made in Sage Advice. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice.'
Sage Advice then goes on to specifically state that ' you can take a long rest and not sleep' and 'standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours' and 'The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.'
In short, any character, elf or otherwise, must spend eight hours in a long rest (that may or may not include sleeping) and can only stay on watch, properly vigilant, for two hours of it.
The benefits of Trance are almost purely RP flavour.
A Long Rest is at least eight hours of 'downtime', at least six of which must be sleep OR light activity - this includes reading, or talking. It then says that you can spend two hours on watch, but no more than two.
Sage Advice clears the matter up entirely. It is a completely legitimate source, from WotC, that opens with this:
'Official rulings on how to interpret unclear rules are made in Sage Advice. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice.'
Sage Advice then goes on to specifically state that ' you can take a long rest and not sleep' and 'standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours' and 'The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.'
In short, any character, elf or otherwise, must spend eight hours in a long rest (that may or may not include sleeping) and can only stay on watch, properly vigilant, for two hours of it.
The benefits of Trance are almost purely RP flavour.
Hope this helps!
Sleep is now a mandatory part of a Long Rest as of apparently the 6th printing of the PHB, before that it wasn't. This would also make Sage Advice not entirely accurate now, whether or not that has any baring on Trance is a different matter, but I think the new wording of a long rest including sleep does complicate Trance.
I feel like all that work and effort to change the text and no one thought to clarify the elf's Trance and its relationship to long rests. Especially considering the new wording to the PHB, which I think will only confuse the whole situation. The next question is what can an Elf do after Trance? lol.
I feel like all that work and effort to change the text and no one thought to clarify the elf's Trance and its relationship to long rests. Especially considering the new wording to the PHB, which I think will only confuse the whole situation. The next question is what can an Elf do after Trance? lol.
I guess cooking elven stuff and reading elven poems....and watch no more than 2 hours.
I feel like all that work and effort to change the text and no one thought to clarify the elf's Trance and its relationship to long rests. Especially considering the new wording to the PHB, which I think will only confuse the whole situation. The next question is what can an Elf do after Trance? lol.
I guess cooking elven stuff and reading elven poems....and watch no more than 2 hours.
The problem is that the new wording literally includes cooking/reading poems & watch in the same two hour period. Thus elves could not read or cook or watch after two hours.
I feel like all that work and effort to change the text and no one thought to clarify the elf's Trance and its relationship to long rests. Especially considering the new wording to the PHB, which I think will only confuse the whole situation. The next question is what can an Elf do after Trance? lol.
I guess cooking elven stuff and reading elven poems....and watch no more than 2 hours.
The problem is that the new wording literally includes cooking/reading poems & watch in the same two hour period. Thus elves could not read or cook or watch after two hours.
I believe the new wording intends to set a limitation only for tha watch, not for reading/cooking.
It is clearly stated in the sage advice compendium:
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful.
In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep.
Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game. That all said, if you’re the DM and you decide to let Trance shorten an elf’s long rest, you’re not going to break the game. You are making a world-building choice if you do so. You’re deciding that elves, on a global scale, are ready to reenter a fight before anyone else, that they heal faster than most humanoids, and that they regain their magical energy faster. Such a choice would make sense in a world where elves are the dominant race, where they not only live longer than others, but also recover faster.
The problem is that Sage Advice is now wrong because Sleep is in fact part of a long rest and watch is included with the other light activities.
Ill have to recheck tomorrow and see if there is a comma or semicolon after watch to indicate the two hours only applying to watch and not the rest, but from memory it is included.
I've tweeted Jeremy Crawford for clarification and to ask if there is new errata coming out - no response so far, but hoping that we get something soon. The fact that wording has been changed in the latest printing means that a whole heap of Sage Advice is incorrect as it now contradicts each other.
I've tweeted Jeremy Crawford for clarification and to ask if there is new errata coming out - no response so far, but hoping that we get something soon. The fact that wording has been changed in the latest printing means that a whole heap of Sage Advice is incorrect as it now contradicts each other.
You are right guys.
Dont know maybe we are thinking too much about it. Maybe it is just 6 sleep 2 light activity, 4 - 4 for elves....
I've tweeted Jeremy Crawford for clarification and to ask if there is new errata coming out - no response so far, but hoping that we get something soon. The fact that wording has been changed in the latest printing means that a whole heap of Sage Advice is incorrect as it now contradicts each other.
Awesome, here's hoping for a reply. The new phrasing feels more like an oversight, and I hope it is, resting without sleep has been part of many sessions for me. Normally a long rest is the best time to sleep but it's not always feasible, or wanted. Every other source remains saying that sleep is optional, even the new, fancy compendium here, SRD or not. If there was a global change in the rules then I feel like it would have been made clear.
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
New Wording
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.
I think the reason this hasn't made it to an errata or anything is because the rule has been clarified, not changed. Since everything occurs after the semi-colon it seems reasonable that the two hour limitation applies to all of the light activities, reading, etc. Meaning that even with the old reading, you still must sleep for 6 hours as you can only perform light activity for 2 hours, regardless of what that light activity is.
Hence I still maintain Crawford was wrong in his original Sage Advice Column and the change in wording reinforces that.
It is definitely a change - the old wording doesn't mandate sleep at all, just mentions it as being a valid choice of what to do, while the new wording mandates that a specific quantity of sleep is needed.
Secondly, the old wording specifies the 2 hour limit to apply only to standing watch, so there is no conflict with an elf character doing something besides trance or watch for 2 hours or any other character taking longer than 8 hours during a long rest which should be possible given the "at least 8 hours long" line present in both wordings. While the new wording creates issues in both those places.
Also, can someone perhaps snap a photo of this new wording and upload it? I'm having trouble being convinced that it actually exists in a print book but hasn't been mentioned in an updated errata document, SRD, or online rules source.
It is definitely a change - the old wording doesn't mandate sleep at all, just mentions it as being a valid choice of what to do, while the new wording mandates that a specific quantity of sleep is needed.
Secondly, the old wording specifies the 2 hour limit to apply only to standing watch, so there is no conflict with an elf character doing something besides trance or watch for 2 hours or any other character taking longer than 8 hours during a long rest which should be possible given the "at least 8 hours long" line present in both wordings. While the new wording creates issues in both those places.
Also, can someone perhaps snap a photo of this new wording and upload it? I'm having trouble being convinced that it actually exists in a print book but hasn't been mentioned in an updated errata document, SRD, or online rules source.
Well after the colon comes reading, etc., watch for no more than two hours. Essentially the at least two hours should apply to the entire list, at least I don't see any indication it wouldn't. If it only applied to the watch part, then it should be its own sentence. Essentially the colon makes it seem as though the entire list should be treated at two hours, not just the watch part. This would infer the sleep part has to be six hours. Basically the sentence lumps watch into the category of light activities, so it makes no sense only one light activity has a time limit and the others don't. If watch was something other than a light activity, then it would be different.
Hence I think it hasn't been mentioned in any errata its just rewarding the original sentence to convey that it should be all the light activities can't be more than two hours, not just one of them.
IF someone lets me know that posting a pic of the PHB paragraph isn't in violation of the forum rules, I'll gladly post it.
IF someone lets me know that posting a pic of the PHB paragraph isn't in violation of the forum rules, I'll gladly post it.
As long as the image only has the paragraph for the discussion in this thread, then it will be allowed - please note that should we ever get requested to take it down, we will remove.
Reading it now, it is a very specific change. One unaware editor merely rephrasing? Or a stealth-change? I can't find anything through the powers of Google.
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Hey guys.
A Long Rest is at least eight hours of 'downtime', at least six of which must be sleep OR light activity - this includes reading, or talking. It then says that you can spend two hours on watch, but no more than two.
Sage Advice clears the matter up entirely. It is a completely legitimate source, from WotC, that opens with this:
'Official rulings on how to interpret unclear rules are made in Sage Advice. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice.'
Sage Advice then goes on to specifically state that ' you can take a long rest and not sleep' and 'standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours' and 'The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.'
In short, any character, elf or otherwise, must spend eight hours in a long rest (that may or may not include sleeping) and can only stay on watch, properly vigilant, for two hours of it.
The benefits of Trance are almost purely RP flavour.
Hope this helps!
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Never thought that the long rest rule would have brought such a long discussion.
I feel like all that work and effort to change the text and no one thought to clarify the elf's Trance and its relationship to long rests. Especially considering the new wording to the PHB, which I think will only confuse the whole situation. The next question is what can an Elf do after Trance? lol.
The problem is that Sage Advice is now wrong because Sleep is in fact part of a long rest and watch is included with the other light activities.
Ill have to recheck tomorrow and see if there is a comma or semicolon after watch to indicate the two hours only applying to watch and not the rest, but from memory it is included.
I've tweeted Jeremy Crawford for clarification and to ask if there is new errata coming out - no response so far, but hoping that we get something soon. The fact that wording has been changed in the latest printing means that a whole heap of Sage Advice is incorrect as it now contradicts each other.
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Old Wording
New Wording
I think the reason this hasn't made it to an errata or anything is because the rule has been clarified, not changed. Since everything occurs after the semi-colon it seems reasonable that the two hour limitation applies to all of the light activities, reading, etc. Meaning that even with the old reading, you still must sleep for 6 hours as you can only perform light activity for 2 hours, regardless of what that light activity is.
Hence I still maintain Crawford was wrong in his original Sage Advice Column and the change in wording reinforces that.
It is definitely a change - the old wording doesn't mandate sleep at all, just mentions it as being a valid choice of what to do, while the new wording mandates that a specific quantity of sleep is needed.
Secondly, the old wording specifies the 2 hour limit to apply only to standing watch, so there is no conflict with an elf character doing something besides trance or watch for 2 hours or any other character taking longer than 8 hours during a long rest which should be possible given the "at least 8 hours long" line present in both wordings. While the new wording creates issues in both those places.
Also, can someone perhaps snap a photo of this new wording and upload it? I'm having trouble being convinced that it actually exists in a print book but hasn't been mentioned in an updated errata document, SRD, or online rules source.
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
Reading it now, it is a very specific change. One unaware editor merely rephrasing? Or a stealth-change? I can't find anything through the powers of Google.
Any reply to your tweet, Sorce?
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