Also I believe the rule as now written includes standing watch with everything else, effectively allowing an elf to stand watch for 4 hours. At least I see no reason that they can't.
Also I believe the rule as now written includes standing watch with everything else, effectively allowing an elf to stand watch for 4 hours. At least I see no reason that they can't.
There's generally considered to be a difference between sleep and unconsciousness, too, but I couldn't come up with a better word.
The reason they can't is the Sage Advice column:
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep. Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game. That all said, if you’re the DM and you decide to let Trance shorten an elf’s long rest, you’re not going to break the game. You are making a world-building choice if you do so. You’re deciding that elves, on a global scale, are ready to reenter a fight before anyone else, that they heal faster than most humanoids, and that they regain their magical energy faster. Such a choice would make sense in a world where elves are the dominant race, where they not only live longer than others, but also recover faster.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Also I believe the rule as now written includes standing watch with everything else, effectively allowing an elf to stand watch for 4 hours. At least I see no reason that they can't.
There's generally considered to be a difference between sleep and unconsciousness, too, but I couldn't come up with a better word.
The reason they can't is the Sage Advice column:
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
Problem is that Sage Advice is now in error with the recent printing of the Players Handbook. A long rest requires sleep and Sleep is required to be six hours, two hours is left for a light activities.
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.
New Wording
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.
Basically if a long rest must be 8 hours (which is questionable for elves because everything says at least before it) elves gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep in 4 (the fact it says 8 hours rather than six would imply elves only need 4 hours for a short rest, since that is the closest correlation). If a Long rest must be 8 hours, and an elf only needs to meditate for four hours, then an elf can stand watch for 4 hours because all light activity is included in the two hour period.
Also I believe the rule as now written includes standing watch with everything else, effectively allowing an elf to stand watch for 4 hours. At least I see no reason that they can't.
There's generally considered to be a difference between sleep and unconsciousness, too, but I couldn't come up with a better word.
The reason they can't is the Sage Advice column:
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
Problem is that Sage Advice is now in error with the recent printing of the Players Handbook. A long rest requires sleep and Sleep is required to be six hours, two hours is left for a light activities.
1. I knew this would happen.
2. 1, above, is why I said, "my interpretation makes no difference whatsoever".
3. I can't think of anything that would make any difference whatsoever to someone with the mindset you seem to me to be displaying.
4. Please do not respond unless I'm wrong about your mindset, as mentioned in 3, above.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Also I believe the rule as now written includes standing watch with everything else, effectively allowing an elf to stand watch for 4 hours. At least I see no reason that they can't.
There's generally considered to be a difference between sleep and unconsciousness, too, but I couldn't come up with a better word.
The reason they can't is the Sage Advice column:
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
Problem is that Sage Advice is now in error with the recent printing of the Players Handbook. A long rest requires sleep and Sleep is required to be six hours, two hours is left for a light activities.
1. I knew this would happen.
2. 1, above, is why I said, "my interpretation makes no difference whatsoever".
3. I can't think of anything that would make any difference whatsoever to someone with the mindset you seem to me to be displaying.
4. Please do not respond unless I'm wrong about your mindset, as mentioned in 3, above.
You mean going by the rules as printed in the latest Players Handbook rather than an article written prior to that book being printed? I'm confused as to why sage advice from like a year ago trumps the players handbook printing that was printed less than six months ago. And why going by the players handbook is a bad mindset.
I am filled with an overwhelming urge to bang my head against a wall.
I was getting a bit of a fanatic vibe from you. The people who don't want me to incur the wrath of the Moderators assure me it was just my imagination.
It is my choice to believe the official clarification from one of the main developers of the game. It is your choice to believe the official edit, source unknown. Obviously, as DMs, we are both able to pick and choose which rules we want to use, and which we want to discard. It is now my choice to attempt to end this conversation, and I hope it will be yours as well.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Please keep the discussion here civil to all Beyond members. I know not everyone agrees on every point; I don't want to have to close this thread if it gets out of hand.
As an aside about this disagreement - you'll see on the 4th page of this thread where I had a response from Jeremy Crawford on twitter. The latest PHB printing has changed the wording of a long rest (it is currently NOT listed in the errata, they are aware of this). The Sage advice from Jeremy was from 2014/2015 - it was to clarify the original wording from the 1st printing. WoTC wanted to make the Long Rest rules clearer to understand, hence the change with the most recent printing (personally, i think it's added extra confusion, hence this now 5 page thread on it).
With the current printing and the existing Sage advice, there isn't a defined ruling about Elves and their trance. As always, each DM is free to interpret the rules and apply them to their games as they see fit. Sharing the outcome and how it works for your groups helps everyone here.
I'm confused as to why sage advice from like a year ago trumps the players handbook printing that was printed less than six months ago.
For me, it comes down to which makes more sense when applied to my actual game-play and leaves the least number of unanswered questions remaining.
So the sage advice ruling gets used because it works for my group and doesn't leave me wondering what exactly the elf trance feature is supposed to do, and the newest PHB ruling gets ignored because it would change my current 3-PC campaign from their being a 2-hour period during each long rest that every PC can be awake but not actively on watch, to there being a 2-hour period during each long rest that every PC is asleep - and as a result of that circumstance, would incentivize the players to game the system by taking their long rests individually on a staggered schedule or keep an NPC around at all times (both of which are obnoxious).
I'm confused as to why sage advice from like a year ago trumps the players handbook printing that was printed less than six months ago.
For me, it comes down to which makes more sense when applied to my actual game-play and leaves the least number of unanswered questions remaining.
So the sage advice ruling gets used because it works for my group and doesn't leave me wondering what exactly the elf trance feature is supposed to do, and the newest PHB ruling gets ignored because it would change my current 3-PC campaign from their being a 2-hour period during each long rest that every PC can be awake but not actively on watch, to there being a 2-hour period during each long rest that every PC is asleep - and as a result of that circumstance, would incentivize the players to game the system by taking their long rests individually on a staggered schedule or keep an NPC around at all times (both of which are obnoxious).
Exactly what I was trying--unsuccessfully--to say!
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
It doesn't say the six hours of sleep has to be consecutive.
...no one said it did?
It doesn't matter how you split up 6+ hours of sleep and maximum 2 hours on watch, a 3-person party cannot possibly take a long rest without a 2 hour period during which no one is on watch - and that means every non-elf (and there are no elves in my 3-man party) is asleep during that watchless period, unless obnoxious shenanigans are afoot.
It doesn't say the six hours of sleep has to be consecutive.
...no one said it did?
It doesn't matter how you split up 6+ hours of sleep and maximum 2 hours on watch, a 3-person party cannot possibly take a long rest without a 2 hour period during which no one is on watch - and that means every non-elf (and there are no elves in my 3-man party) is asleep during that watchless period, unless obnoxious shenanigans are afoot.
But you still have to sleep once every 24 hours in order to avoid exhaustion. So not sleeping during a long rest doesn't solve anything because you would gain exhaustion. Basically with a 3 man group, some one has to start sleeping two hours before everyone else in order to spend 4 hours on watch. Otherwise the party would have to spend 16+ hours a day on a long rest and sleeping or facing increasing exhaustion for not sleeping. Not sleeping during a long rest doesn't solve anything rules wise because of exhaustion.
I am filled with an overwhelming urge to bang my head against a wall.
I was getting a bit of a fanatic vibe from you. The people who don't want me to incur the wrath of the Moderators assure me it was just my imagination.
It is my choice to believe the official clarification from one of the main developers of the game. It is your choice to believe the official edit, source unknown. Obviously, as DMs, we are both able to pick and choose which rules we want to use, and which we want to discard. It is now my choice to attempt to end this conversation, and I hope it will be yours as well.
You don't have to believe one over the other. The exchange between Sorce and Jeremy in the previous page makes it clear the new wording just reflects what Jeremy always intended. Sage Advice even says an elf has 4 hours of light activity available during their long rest, which is exactly what standing watch is.
It doesn't matter how you split up 6+ hours of sleep and maximum 2 hours on watch, a 3-person party cannot possibly take a long rest without a 2 hour period during which no one is on watch - and that means every non-elf (and there are no elves in my 3-man party) is asleep during that watchless period, unless obnoxious shenanigans are afoot.
What do you call "obnoxious shenanigans"? It's perfectly possible to do this, it just takes 10 hours instead of 8 and everyone will have to be on watch twice. Yes, they're staggering their sleep a little, but I don't see how that complicates anything for the DM.
I do feel like Crawford has no memory of what he wrote in sage advice since he thinks the PHB change isn't substantial yet contradicts him. One of the many reasons I don't really pay attention to sage advice.
But you still have to sleep once every 24 hours in order to avoid exhaustion.
Is your new PHB that the errata hasn't caught up with specific about exactly when someone has to sleep and how many hours in order to avoid exhaustion? Because my first printing plus errata and sage advice isn't specific.
What do you call "obnoxious shenanigans"? It's perfectly possible to do this, it just takes 10 hours instead of 8 and everyone will have to be on watch twice. Yes, they're staggering their sleep a little, but I don't see how that complicates anything for the DM.
What I call obnoxious shenanigans is exactly that sort of chart which you've linked. How it complicates things isn't huge, no, but it is there - I've got to basically ignore that what is going on is a 10 hour long rest in which every character is actually taking twice the allowed length of watch, plus there are 4 hours of the watch wherein an encounter occurring has different impact upon different characters (i.e. whether or not it matters how long the encounter lasts, and whether or not the character has finished their long rest before the encounter or not).
To be fair, according to Crawford the errata will never contain the "change in wording" to long rests because it was an unsubstantial change. (I think because of posters above he was suppose to pass on adding it to the errata, but that doesn't seem to be a call he gets to make) I'll have to check and see (that may have been a house rule that you gain exhaustion if you don't sleep every 24 hours) and therefore not actually contained within the phb.
So I'm assuming you never made your players actually sleep? So they could stay awake for a week and it would be perfectly fine?
I mean I have never personally played in a game where not sleeping was an option. So all this talk about not having to sleep during a long rest seems odd to me, because when else would you sleep?
What I call obnoxious shenanigans is exactly that sort of chart which you've linked. How it complicates things isn't huge, no, but it is there - I've got to basically ignore that what is going on is a 10 hour long rest in which every character is actually taking twice the allowed length of watch, plus there are 4 hours of the watch wherein an encounter occurring has different impact upon different characters (i.e. whether or not it matters how long the encounter lasts, and whether or not the character has finished their long rest before the encounter or not).
I can understand not liking that an interruption in the middle of the rest has different consequences than an interruption at the start or end. But I don't get why you'd care that they spent 4 hours on watch if 2 of those hours happen before or after the long rest; they literally don't count. If it's OK for them to finish a long rest and immediately go fight a dragon, it's OK for them to finish their long rest and stand watch.
To be fair, according to Crawford the errata will never contain the "change in wording" to long rests because it was an unsubstantial change. (I think because of posters above he was suppose to pass on adding it to the errata, but that doesn't seem to be a call he gets to make) I'll have to check and see (that may have been a house rule that you gain exhaustion if you don't sleep every 24 hours) and therefore not actually contained within the phb.
You're probably thinking of the section Using Each Ability within Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores
The DM might call for a Constitution check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:
Hold your breath
March or labor for hours without rest
Go without sleep
Survive without food or water
Quaff an entire stein of ale in one go
The section on resting in Chapter 8 also mentions:
Heroic though they might be, adventurers can’t spend every hour of the day in the thick of exploration, social interaction, and combat. They need rest—time to sleep and eat, tend their wounds, refresh their minds and spirits for spellcasting, and brace themselves for further adventure.
So the consequences are up to the DM, but it's clear the rules expect creatures to sleep. They even bothered to give monsters that don't need sleep a trait that say so. Exhaustion makes the most sense to me and I'd imagine most people would handle it the same way.
But I don't get why you'd care that they spent 4 hours on watch if 2 of those hours happen before or after the long rest; they literally don't count. If it's OK for them to finish a long rest and immediately go fight a dragon, it's OK for them to finish their long rest and stand watch.
It comes down to this; If it is possible to functionally ignore the 2-hour limitation, then there is no point in there even being a 2-hour limitation in the rules.
So, for me, there is a difference between finishing a long rest and going to fight a dragon (not a typical part of resting) and finishing a long rest and standing watch (still resting, but saying that you aren't).
They didn't ignore the 2 hour limitation. They still had to sleep 6 hours in an 8 hour window of time, and the other party members still had to cover those 6 hours they were asleep.
If they had spent those extra 2 hours sleeping (so they get a full 8 hours, like normal people) they'd also be "still resting, but saying that you aren't" since they finished the long rest after the first 6 hours of sleep.
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Technically elves aren't unconscious.
Also I believe the rule as now written includes standing watch with everything else, effectively allowing an elf to stand watch for 4 hours. At least I see no reason that they can't.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Old Wording
New Wording
Basically if a long rest must be 8 hours (which is questionable for elves because everything says at least before it) elves gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep in 4 (the fact it says 8 hours rather than six would imply elves only need 4 hours for a short rest, since that is the closest correlation). If a Long rest must be 8 hours, and an elf only needs to meditate for four hours, then an elf can stand watch for 4 hours because all light activity is included in the two hour period.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I am filled with an overwhelming urge to bang my head against a wall.
I was getting a bit of a fanatic vibe from you. The people who don't want me to incur the wrath of the Moderators assure me it was just my imagination.
It is my choice to believe the official clarification from one of the main developers of the game. It is your choice to believe the official edit, source unknown. Obviously, as DMs, we are both able to pick and choose which rules we want to use, and which we want to discard. It is now my choice to attempt to end this conversation, and I hope it will be yours as well.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Please keep the discussion here civil to all Beyond members. I know not everyone agrees on every point; I don't want to have to close this thread if it gets out of hand.
As an aside about this disagreement - you'll see on the 4th page of this thread where I had a response from Jeremy Crawford on twitter. The latest PHB printing has changed the wording of a long rest (it is currently NOT listed in the errata, they are aware of this). The Sage advice from Jeremy was from 2014/2015 - it was to clarify the original wording from the 1st printing. WoTC wanted to make the Long Rest rules clearer to understand, hence the change with the most recent printing (personally, i think it's added extra confusion, hence this now 5 page thread on it).
With the current printing and the existing Sage advice, there isn't a defined ruling about Elves and their trance. As always, each DM is free to interpret the rules and apply them to their games as they see fit. Sharing the outcome and how it works for your groups helps everyone here.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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It doesn't say the six hours of sleep has to be consecutive.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I do feel like Crawford has no memory of what he wrote in sage advice since he thinks the PHB change isn't substantial yet contradicts him. One of the many reasons I don't really pay attention to sage advice.
To be fair, according to Crawford the errata will never contain the "change in wording" to long rests because it was an unsubstantial change. (I think because of posters above he was suppose to pass on adding it to the errata, but that doesn't seem to be a call he gets to make) I'll have to check and see (that may have been a house rule that you gain exhaustion if you don't sleep every 24 hours) and therefore not actually contained within the phb.
So I'm assuming you never made your players actually sleep? So they could stay awake for a week and it would be perfectly fine?
I mean I have never personally played in a game where not sleeping was an option. So all this talk about not having to sleep during a long rest seems odd to me, because when else would you sleep?
The section on resting in Chapter 8 also mentions:
So the consequences are up to the DM, but it's clear the rules expect creatures to sleep. They even bothered to give monsters that don't need sleep a trait that say so. Exhaustion makes the most sense to me and I'd imagine most people would handle it the same way.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
It comes down to this; If it is possible to functionally ignore the 2-hour limitation, then there is no point in there even being a 2-hour limitation in the rules.
So, for me, there is a difference between finishing a long rest and going to fight a dragon (not a typical part of resting) and finishing a long rest and standing watch (still resting, but saying that you aren't).
They didn't ignore the 2 hour limitation. They still had to sleep 6 hours in an 8 hour window of time, and the other party members still had to cover those 6 hours they were asleep.
If they had spent those extra 2 hours sleeping (so they get a full 8 hours, like normal people) they'd also be "still resting, but saying that you aren't" since they finished the long rest after the first 6 hours of sleep.
The Forum Infestation (TM)