Any of you get into any discussion with your players regarding elves only needing 4 hours of meditation and not sleep. Player argued that he is semi conscious so aware of surroundings so would be aware of any threat. We argued extended rest says max 2 hours of guard per player and being aware just gves you a chance not to be fully surprised and have disadvantage.
I have an unusually high number of players with Elf characters in my campaign, and I typically handle it by saying that yes they are able to keep watch, just like any other player, usually I drop this to a quarter of their reduced rest time as an Elf, but when they are 'trancing' they are unaware of their surroundings, which is indicated by the flavour text given by the Players handbook. So they are able to be surprised, as would anyone else while resting.
Although typically my players stagger their rest so that at least 1 elf is fully awake for each part of the night.
The elves do not need to sleep. But they need a long rest to regain spells and/or abilities like everyone else. During a long rest, they must spend 4 hours for the "Trance" feature. What remains of the long rest can be used for any kind of light activity, including watch.
I disagree, the sage advice makes pretty clear that the elf only needs to trance for 4 hours, and can spend the other 4 hours on watch. I would rule that an elf is unaware of his surroundings while in a trance, and thus subject to surprise and ambush just like any other sleeping character, but they are perfectly capable of taking half the watch.
In general, a character can't be on watch for more than 2 hours, because they need 6 hours of sleep. The specific case of elves, is that they only need 4 hours of trancing. They'd have 4 hours left to be on watch, if need be.
Yes, but remember that specific beats general. The general rule is that a character cannot stand watch for more than 2 hours, but the elf trance ability is more specific, and states that 4 hours in a trance state is equivalent to 8 hours of sleep. A long rest still has to last 8 hours, so, as seen in one of those sage advice links above, this means that in practice the only real benefit of trance is that an elf can always be assigned second watch (the second half of the night)
I would have to say Crawford is wrong, even if he is a designer of the game. The paragraph says that an Elf gains the same benefits from 4 hours of Trance that a human does from 8 hours of sleep (though I suppose this is assuming that spells return while sleeping and you mentally prepare before sleep; this is actually probably where the D&D spell system just makes no sense whatsoever from a logical standpoint). A long rest is only required to be 8 hours, 6 of which must be sleep and two hours as light activity. At the very least it seems reasonable to say that an elf requires 4 hours of trance replacing the 6 hours of sleep required by humans and still needs at least two hours of light activity, but it seems inaccurate to say that an Elf gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep, when only 6 hours of sleep is required, meaning the paragraph about Trance seems to be including the light rest period with the sleep part of the night which totals to 8 hours and therefore Trance would replace the entire 6 hour period of sleep and 2 hour period of light activity. Basically a human gains no benefit for sleep greater than 6 hours, so the text doesn't make sense if the Elf still needs the period of light activity and on top of that an additional two hours.
Either way, the Elf can watch for four hours instead of the regular two. An elf is semi-conscience, so I would say in 5th edition terms, a sleeping character doesn't have a chance to observe a silent event occurring (loud noise can still wake you up), while an elf would likely have disadvantage to notice while in a trance as they are specifically stated to not be asleep and are semi-conscience.
Long Rest is at least 8 hours, sleep for at least 6, no more than 2 hours of light activity.
So if Trance replaces 8 hours of sleep, which isn't required to begin with, then strictly reading the definition of a long rest, an Elf would have to Trance for 6 hours because they can't perform no more than two hours of light activity. But if you are going to remove the "at least 6 hour sleep requirement, remove the no more than 2 hours of light activity requirement, then why do you keep the first part of the sentence at 8 hours when you have changed everything else about the definition?
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting Spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Please note it states: sleeps or performs light activity - at no point does it state how long one must be asleep for to have a long rest. Just like in the real world, you can survive and continue normally on a couple of hours sleep, everyone is different. Usually people would sleep for majority of the short rest, however there is nothing stopping you from sleeping for 5 hours, waking up, reading a book for an hour then taking the last watch (for 2).
Usually most people would sleep for roughly 8 hours a day (or trance for 4 if you're an elf). That would usually take place around the time of a long rest, but can be taken at a different time as well.
Also, Jeremy Crawford is the rules designer - if he says something works as X, you are always welcome to say otherwise in your game, however as a general term, he can't be wrong.
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting Spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Please note it states: sleeps or performs light activity - at no point does it state how long one must be asleep for to have a long rest. Just like in the real world, you can survive and continue normally on a couple of hours sleep, everyone is different. Usually people would sleep for majority of the short rest, however there is nothing stopping you from sleeping for 5 hours, waking up, reading a book for an hour then taking the last watch (for 2).
Usually most people would sleep for roughly 8 hours a day (or trance for 4 if you're an elf). That would usually take place around the time of a long rest, but can be taken at a different time as well.
Also, Jeremy Crawford is the rules designer - if he says something works as X, you are always welcome to say otherwise in your game, however as a general term, he can't be wrong.
The actual players handbook does in fact state that "Long Rest is at least 8 hours, sleep for at least 6, no more than 2 hours of light activity." What you quoted is from the Compendium above, and is not what the Players Handbook states.
Even the truncated Compendium version states that you can't take a light activity for longer than two hours thus strictly reading it would require an elf to Trance for 6 hours as they can't do anything else but Trance to reach 8 hours. But why alter the Light activity part only?
According to the Players handbook you must in fact sleep at least 6 hours. So they may have intended that an extended rest is required to be 8 hours, but at no point do they say that in the Players Handbook. I would be included to agree if the Elf Trance feature did not say that you gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in four since 8 hours of sleep is not required to begin with but 6, so to gain the full benefits would indeed seem to imply that it halves the long rest period to 4.
I disagree, the sage advice makes pretty clear that the elf only needs to trance for 4 hours, and can spend the other 4 hours on watch. I would rule that an elf is unaware of his surroundings while in a trance, and thus subject to surprise and ambush just like any other sleeping character, but they are perfectly capable of taking half the watch.
Elves aren't asleep while in Trance. They are semi-conscience.
According to the Players handbook you must in fact sleep at least 6 hours.
That is not true. There is no mention of the number 6 in the rules text for long rest, nor any statement that requires all of your time not spent on watch to be spent sleeping.
What it is certain, is that an elf requires 8 hours of long rest like anyone else. 4 out of the 8 hours the elf is in TRance and therefore cannot be on watch. The other 4 hours is up to you, but has to be light activity.
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting Spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Please note it states: sleeps or performs light activity - at no point does it state how long one must be asleep for to have a long rest. Just like in the real world, you can survive and continue normally on a couple of hours sleep, everyone is different. Usually people would sleep for majority of the short rest, however there is nothing stopping you from sleeping for 5 hours, waking up, reading a book for an hour then taking the last watch (for 2).
Usually most people would sleep for roughly 8 hours a day (or trance for 4 if you're an elf). That would usually take place around the time of a long rest, but can be taken at a different time as well.
Also, Jeremy Crawford is the rules designer - if he says something works as X, you are always welcome to say otherwise in your game, however as a general term, he can't be wrong.
The actual players handbook does in fact state that "Long Rest is at least 8 hours, sleep for at least 6, no more than 2 hours of light activity." What you quoted is from the Compendium above, and is not what the Players Handbook states.
Even the truncated Compendium version states that you can't take a light activity for longer than two hours thus strictly reading it would require an elf to Trance for 6 hours as they can't do anything else but Trance to reach 8 hours. But why alter the Light activity part only?
According to the Players handbook you must in fact sleep at least 6 hours. So they may have intended that an extended rest is required to be 8 hours, but at no point do they say that in the Players Handbook. I would be included to agree if the Elf Trance feature did not say that you gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in four since 8 hours of sleep is not required to begin with but 6, so to gain the full benefits would indeed seem to imply that it halves the long rest period to 4.
Please advise the exact spot that it says that - I'm looking at the PHB now - zero mention of 6 hours in the section on Long Rests. The PHB has the exact same text I quoted above.
Page 186 under long rest (second column under main heading of resting sub heading of long test.) it says "a long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"
Page 186 under long rest (second column under main heading of resting sub heading of long test.) it says "a long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"
He is right, I got that sentence too. Regardless, the long rest time for elves doesn't change. It is still 8 hours.
Hi
Any of you get into any discussion with your players regarding elves only needing 4 hours of meditation and not sleep. Player argued that he is semi conscious so aware of surroundings so would be aware of any threat. We argued extended rest says max 2 hours of guard per player and being aware just gves you a chance not to be fully surprised and have disadvantage.
How do you guys handle this?
I have an unusually high number of players with Elf characters in my campaign, and I typically handle it by saying that yes they are able to keep watch, just like any other player, usually I drop this to a quarter of their reduced rest time as an Elf, but when they are 'trancing' they are unaware of their surroundings, which is indicated by the flavour text given by the Players handbook. So they are able to be surprised, as would anyone else while resting.
Although typically my players stagger their rest so that at least 1 elf is fully awake for each part of the night.
I think these might help:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/08/28/elf-trance/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/12/elf-trance-human-sleep/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/11/elves-trance/
The elves do not need to sleep. But they need a long rest to regain spells and/or abilities like everyone else. During a long rest, they must spend 4 hours for the "Trance" feature. What remains of the long rest can be used for any kind of light activity, including watch.
But they cant watch for more than 2 hours in order to benefit from a Long Rest.
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I disagree, the sage advice makes pretty clear that the elf only needs to trance for 4 hours, and can spend the other 4 hours on watch. I would rule that an elf is unaware of his surroundings while in a trance, and thus subject to surprise and ambush just like any other sleeping character, but they are perfectly capable of taking half the watch.
The rule of the long rest clearly states the anyone (elf or other race) cannot be on watch more than 2 hours.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/adventuring/resting
As the sage advice says, "Trance" replaces the sleep not the long rest.
I agree that an elf in trance cannot be on watch.
In general, a character can't be on watch for more than 2 hours, because they need 6 hours of sleep. The specific case of elves, is that they only need 4 hours of trancing. They'd have 4 hours left to be on watch, if need be.
Yes, but remember that specific beats general. The general rule is that a character cannot stand watch for more than 2 hours, but the elf trance ability is more specific, and states that 4 hours in a trance state is equivalent to 8 hours of sleep. A long rest still has to last 8 hours, so, as seen in one of those sage advice links above, this means that in practice the only real benefit of trance is that an elf can always be assigned second watch (the second half of the night)
You are right guys, I've found it:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/10/what-advantages-does-the-elven-trance-bestow-vs-normal-sleep/
I would have to say Crawford is wrong, even if he is a designer of the game. The paragraph says that an Elf gains the same benefits from 4 hours of Trance that a human does from 8 hours of sleep (though I suppose this is assuming that spells return while sleeping and you mentally prepare before sleep; this is actually probably where the D&D spell system just makes no sense whatsoever from a logical standpoint). A long rest is only required to be 8 hours, 6 of which must be sleep and two hours as light activity. At the very least it seems reasonable to say that an elf requires 4 hours of trance replacing the 6 hours of sleep required by humans and still needs at least two hours of light activity, but it seems inaccurate to say that an Elf gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep, when only 6 hours of sleep is required, meaning the paragraph about Trance seems to be including the light rest period with the sleep part of the night which totals to 8 hours and therefore Trance would replace the entire 6 hour period of sleep and 2 hour period of light activity. Basically a human gains no benefit for sleep greater than 6 hours, so the text doesn't make sense if the Elf still needs the period of light activity and on top of that an additional two hours.
Either way, the Elf can watch for four hours instead of the regular two. An elf is semi-conscience, so I would say in 5th edition terms, a sleeping character doesn't have a chance to observe a silent event occurring (loud noise can still wake you up), while an elf would likely have disadvantage to notice while in a trance as they are specifically stated to not be asleep and are semi-conscience.
So if Trance replaces 8 hours of sleep, which isn't required to begin with, then strictly reading the definition of a long rest, an Elf would have to Trance for 6 hours because they can't perform no more than two hours of light activity. But if you are going to remove the "at least 6 hour sleep requirement, remove the no more than 2 hours of light activity requirement, then why do you keep the first part of the sentence at 8 hours when you have changed everything else about the definition?
Long Rest:
Please note it states: sleeps or performs light activity - at no point does it state how long one must be asleep for to have a long rest. Just like in the real world, you can survive and continue normally on a couple of hours sleep, everyone is different. Usually people would sleep for majority of the short rest, however there is nothing stopping you from sleeping for 5 hours, waking up, reading a book for an hour then taking the last watch (for 2).
Usually most people would sleep for roughly 8 hours a day (or trance for 4 if you're an elf). That would usually take place around the time of a long rest, but can be taken at a different time as well.
Also, Jeremy Crawford is the rules designer - if he says something works as X, you are always welcome to say otherwise in your game, however as a general term, he can't be wrong.
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What it is certain, is that an elf requires 8 hours of long rest like anyone else. 4 out of the 8 hours the elf is in TRance and therefore cannot be on watch. The other 4 hours is up to you, but has to be light activity.
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Page 186 under long rest (second column under main heading of resting sub heading of long test.) it says "a long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"
Which version - because I'm pretty sure the errata got rid of the 6 hour part - my book on 186 doesnt have it.
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I have the last printing I believe.
The errata does mention this about the long rest:
Long Rest (p. 186). You regain at least 1 Hit Die when you finish a long rest.
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf
Nothing about what you can do during the long rest.