Plaguescarred ( et Al) first keep in mind that some folks read the rules as anything not explicitly allowed is forbidden, others read the same rules as anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed. That leads to a bunch of arguments here. I tend to be part of the second group so hear goes. nick does not make an explicit statement about where in the order of the two light attacks it happens - so it could be the first or the second. So, whether first or second the Nick attack is moved into the attack action freeing the bonus action for use by other things. Next, dual weapon fighting does require an prior attack by a a light weapon, BUT it doesn’t require this to be the light action two weapon fighting, nor does it explicitly replace the light weapon TWF, so L1-4: 1) before initiative: at least one light weapon is drawn ( pretty normal for most situations) 2) initiative, draw second light weapon, attack action( shortsword (vex)/scimitar(nick) or reverse - 2 attacks either way) 3) bonus action: dual wielding- stow one light weapon & draw long sword ( the 2 allowed by the feat) and attack with the long sword. 3 attacks in one round - your decision is whether to give the scimitar or the longsword the advantage on the attack levels 5+ with extra attack feature: attacks action: short sword (vex) then scimitar (nick) then short sword (vex) bonus action: attack with long sword total of 4 attacks in one round.
a couple of caveats: 1) this assumes that you are using the bonus action for a melee attack. This might not be true as a number of classes (like ranger) have spells they may need that bonus action for. In those cases the bonus action might come first to get things like hunter’s mark damage. 2) I’m sure someone will want to argue about the orders of the attacks - please refer back to my opening remarks in this post, and forego that discussion (again).
I really think the sentence below should have been part of the Light property rather than Nick Mastery to prevent any confusion once and for all.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Plaguescarred ( et Al) first keep in mind that some folks read the rules as anything not explicitly allowed is forbidden, others read the same rules as anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed. That leads to a bunch of arguments here. I tend to be part of the second group so hear goes. nick does not make an explicit statement about where in the order of the two light attacks it happens - so it could be the first or the second. So, whether first or second the Nick attack is moved into the attack action freeing the bonus action for use by other things. Next, dual weapon fighting does require an prior attack by a a light weapon, BUT it doesn’t require this to be the light action two weapon fighting, nor does it explicitly replace the light weapon TWF, so L1-4: 1) before initiative: at least one light weapon is drawn ( pretty normal for most situations) 2) initiative, draw second light weapon, attack action( shortsword (vex)/scimitar(nick) or reverse - 2 attacks either way) 3) bonus action: dual wielding- stow one light weapon & draw long sword ( the 2 allowed by the feat) and attack with the long sword. 3 attacks in one round - your decision is whether to give the scimitar or the longsword the advantage on the attack levels 5+ with extra attack feature: attacks action: short sword (vex) then scimitar (nick) then short sword (vex) bonus action: attack with long sword total of 4 attacks in one round.
a couple of caveats: 1) this assumes that you are using the bonus action for a melee attack. This might not be true as a number of classes (like ranger) have spells they may need that bonus action for. In those cases the bonus action might come first to get things like hunter’s mark damage. 2) I’m sure someone will want to argue about the orders of the attacks - please refer back to my opening remarks in this post, and forego that discussion (again).
You technically can't draw or stow weapons with the bonus action attack unless another feature lets you do so like the thrown property. The attack action is what grants drawing or stowing weapons when you make attacks as a part of that action. You could still do your sequence but the last attack in the attack action would have to stow a light weapon and draw the longsword. There's also dispute about whether the draw or stow 2 weapons in the dual wielder feat means "draw 2 weapons or stow 2 weapons" or "draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat. Even with the former interpretation you can use your time limited interaction to draw the longsword.
I really think the sentence below should have been part of the Light property rather than Nick Mastery to prevent any confusion once and for all.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
This would definitely have been a better way to write it. I think it ran afoul of their new obsession with removing redundant language from everything. (If the Nick mastery didn't exist, you wouldn't need that sentence at all, because you only ever have one bonus action per turn anyway.)
Until official ruling come say otherwise, personally i do require the extra attack to be made with the Nick weapon if you want to not use a Bonus Action.
I really think the sentence below should have been part of the Light property rather than Nick Mastery to prevent any confusion once and for all.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
For sure, they included it in Nick because that's the only time it matters, but it just makes things more confusing even if it functions the same.
[...] There's also dispute about whether the draw or stow 2 weapons in the dual wielder feat means "draw 2 weapons or stow 2 weapons" or "draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat. Even with the former interpretation you can use your time limited interaction to draw the longsword.
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property. All Heavy weapons in the Player’s Handbook have the Two-Handed property, so they don’t benefit from this feat. (However, if we were to create a Heavy weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property in the future, that weapon could be used with this feat!)
[...] There's also dispute about whether the draw or stow 2 weapons in the dual wielder feat means "draw 2 weapons or stow 2 weapons" or "draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat. Even with the former interpretation you can use your time limited interaction to draw the longsword.
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property. All Heavy weapons in the Player’s Handbook have the Two-Handed property, so they don’t benefit from this feat. (However, if we were to create a Heavy weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property in the future, that weapon could be used with this feat!)
Quoting sage advice that doesn't pertain to the dispute in question but instead about heavy weapons does not indicate intent. Even if you infer intent from that unrelated sage advice it does not contradict the plain reading of the text "draw or stow 2 weapons" in any way.
[...] There's also dispute about whether the draw or stow 2 weapons in the dual wielder feat means "draw 2 weapons or stow 2 weapons" or "draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat. Even with the former interpretation you can use your time limited interaction to draw the longsword.
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property. All Heavy weapons in the Player’s Handbook have the Two-Handed property, so they don’t benefit from this feat. (However, if we were to create a Heavy weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property in the future, that weapon could be used with this feat!)
Quoting sage advice that doesn't pertain to the dispute in question but instead about heavy weapons does not indicate intent. Even if you infer intent for an unrelated issue from that it does not contradict the text of "draw or stow 2 weapons" in any way.
I was responding to your claim about" draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat, and the SAC is saying "the Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property", which contradicts your proposal.
Heavy weapons are mentioned because the SAC needs to connect Two-Handed and Heavy weapons in the explanation, but it starts by explaining the feat's Quick Draw benefit.
My apologies if my response bothered you or if you don't find it helpful.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
If nick is supposed to be on the weapon used in the nick attack it would be simple to chance the starting clause to "When you make the extra attack of the Light property with this weapon".
Edit: Part of the confusion also seems to be that Paradox is using the light weapon attack more than once on a turn and the Nick mastery specifically limits it to once per turn.
If you use a light weapon when you take the Attack Action you can make an extra attack as a bonus action and THE bonus action attack is made with a different light weapon later in the turn and the extra attack as a bonus action does not get mod damage unless negative. So, thus far we get two attacks one as the attack action and as a bonus action but it has to be a completely different weapon right? So if you don’t use a Nick weapon in the Attack Action then you only have 2 attacks. ( if you only have one attack ever, and a second attack is only available if you are holding two different weapons and the first has to be a light weapon then that second attack is your bonus action.)
Now, here comes Nick and it says: You make the extra attack of the light property, at this point you would think that means it only applies when making that bonus action right?, but no the rest of the statement changes that: you make that/or the extra attack as part of the Attack Action instead of( this very wording “instead of” is the part that changes the whole context of the nick mastery) as a bonus action.
[ at this point it is telling you you don’t have to take the bonus action extra attack as a bonus action later, you get to take it after using a weapon with the Nick mastery ( later in sequence if you want, but you have to use Nick weapon before you get to move the additional attack.) you can use nick to get This attack once per turn.]
So far all you did was attack once with a light property weapon that has nick, you moved an attack that could have been made as a bonus action to the Attack Action instead, and you still have the ability to take a bonus action.
[ remember instead of as a bonus action you used nick to make that attack as part of the primary Attack Action. so did you burn that Bonus Action or do you still have it? ]( you still have that Bonus Action don’t you, why? because you never used it yet. It, the bonus action itself, was never used. Nick was. Nick is an extra attack granted when you wield two different weapons one is required to be a light property weapon.)
No confusion or other bs, just straight RAW.
I’ve made my case, have a nice day to all who disagree, and by all means continue to claim I am incorrect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
[...] There's also dispute about whether the draw or stow 2 weapons in the dual wielder feat means "draw 2 weapons or stow 2 weapons" or "draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat. Even with the former interpretation you can use your time limited interaction to draw the longsword.
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property. All Heavy weapons in the Player’s Handbook have the Two-Handed property, so they don’t benefit from this feat. (However, if we were to create a Heavy weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property in the future, that weapon could be used with this feat!)
Quoting sage advice that doesn't pertain to the dispute in question but instead about heavy weapons does not indicate intent. Even if you infer intent for an unrelated issue from that it does not contradict the text of "draw or stow 2 weapons" in any way.
I was responding to your claim about" draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat, and the SAC is saying "the Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property", which contradicts your claim.
Heavy weapons are mentioned because the SAC needs to connect Two-Handed and Heavy weapons in the explanation, but it starts by explaining the feat's Quick Draw benefit.
My apologies if my response bothered you or if you don't find it helpful.
You didn't bother me, but your response isn't helpful because it doesn't pertain to the discussion and doesn't contradict my claim. As you say it shows an example of how quick draw works, but it doesn't say that it is the only way it can be used. Does that example imply you can't stow 2 weapons with quick draw? The example in the light weapon feature doesn't say you can only use it with a light weapon in each hand just as this example does not exclude another usage of the feature. Just because you assert that it contradicts my claim doesn't make it so.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
If nick is supposed to be on the weapon used in the nick attack it would be simple to chance the starting clause to "When you make the extra attack of the Light property with this weapon".
Edit: Part of the confusion also seems to be that Paradox is using the light weapon attack more than once on a turn and the Nick mastery specifically limits it to once per turn.
If you use a light weapon when you take the Attack Action you can make an extra attack as a bonus action and THE bonus action attack is made with a different light weapon later in the turn and the extra attack as a bonus action does not get mod damage unless negative. So, thus far we get two attacks one as the attack action and as a bonus action but it has to be a completely different weapon right? So if you don’t use a Nick weapon in the Attack Action then you only have 2 attacks. ( if you only have one attack ever, and a second attack is only available if you are holding two different weapons and the first has to be a light weapon then that second attack is your bonus action.)
Now, here comes Nick and it says: You make the extra attack of the light property, at this point you would think that means it only applies when making that bonus action right?, but no the rest of the statement changes that: you make that/or the extra attack as part of the Attack Action instead of( this very wording “instead of” is the part that changes the whole context of the nick mastery) as a bonus action.
[ at this point it is telling you you don’t have to take the bonus action extra attack as a bonus action later, you get to take it after using a weapon with the Nick mastery ( later in sequence if you want, but you have to use Nick weapon before you get to move the additional attack.) you can use nick to get This attack once per turn.]
So far all you did was attack once with a light property weapon that has nick, you moved an attack that could have been made as a bonus action to the Attack Action instead, and you still have the ability to take a bonus action.
[ remember instead of as a bonus action you used nick to make that attack as part of the primary Attack Action. so did you burn that Bonus Action or do you still have it? ]( you still have that Bonus Action don’t you, why? because you never used it yet. It, the bonus action itself, was never used. Nick was. Nick is an extra attack granted when you wield two different weapons one is required to be a light property weapon.)
No confusion or other bs, just straight RAW.
I’ve made my case, have a nice day to all who disagree, and by all means continue to claim I am incorrect.
You're forgetting the last sentence in the Nick property. Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." The adjective "this" in the last sentence only has one possible reference "the extra attack of the light property". If you use nick you have a bonus action free, but you can't take the Light property's extra attack with that bonus action because nick explicitly says you can't.
I really think the sentence below should have been part of the Light property rather than Nick Mastery to prevent any confusion once and for all.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Unfortunately it doesn’t address the fact that your using Nick weapon Mastery to burn your bonus Action.
While your at it be sure to Errata out the one bonus action per turn general rule, as your willing to give extra bonus actions out for every time something says you can do (x) as a bonus action and your free rolling Nick to run infinitely.
“You really do like hitting yourself with that shield don’t ya,” will crop up and off we go again with the same “why can’t they just clean up an clarify the rules, where’s the SAC on the Nick mastery?”
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I really think the sentence below should have been part of the Light property rather than Nick Mastery to prevent any confusion once and for all.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Unfortunately it doesn’t address the fact that your using Nick weapon Mastery to burn your bonus Action.
While your at it be sure to Errata out the one bonus action per turn general rule, as your willing to give extra bonus actions out for every time something says you can do (x) as a bonus action and your free rolling Nick to run infinitely.
“You really do like hitting yourself with that shield don’t ya,” will crop up and off we go again with the same “why can’t they just clean up an clarify the rules, where’s the SAC on the Nick mastery?”
How many times have you been told that nobody says that?
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
If nick is supposed to be on the weapon used in the nick attack it would be simple to chance the starting clause to "When you make the extra attack of the Light property with this weapon".
Edit: Part of the confusion also seems to be that Paradox is using the light weapon attack more than once on a turn and the Nick mastery specifically limits it to once per turn.
If you use a light weapon when you take the Attack Action you can make an extra attack as a bonus action and THE bonus action attack is made with a different light weapon later in the turn and the extra attack as a bonus action does not get mod damage unless negative. So, thus far we get two attacks one as the attack action and as a bonus action but it has to be a completely different weapon right? So if you don’t use a Nick weapon in the Attack Action then you only have 2 attacks. ( if you only have one attack ever, and a second attack is only available if you are holding two different weapons and the first has to be a light weapon then that second attack is your bonus action.)
Now, here comes Nick and it says: You make the extra attack of the light property, at this point you would think that means it only applies when making that bonus action right?, but no the rest of the statement changes that: you make that/or the extra attack as part of the Attack Action instead of( this very wording “instead of” is the part that changes the whole context of the nick mastery) as a bonus action.
[ at this point it is telling you you don’t have to take the bonus action extra attack as a bonus action later, you get to take it after using a weapon with the Nick mastery ( later in sequence if you want, but you have to use Nick weapon before you get to move the additional attack.) you can use nick to get This attack once per turn.]
So far all you did was attack once with a light property weapon that has nick, you moved an attack that could have been made as a bonus action to the Attack Action instead, and you still have the ability to take a bonus action.
[ remember instead of as a bonus action you used nick to make that attack as part of the primary Attack Action. so did you burn that Bonus Action or do you still have it? ]( you still have that Bonus Action don’t you, why? because you never used it yet. It, the bonus action itself, was never used. Nick was. Nick is an extra attack granted when you wield two different weapons one is required to be a light property weapon.)
No confusion or other bs, just straight RAW.
I’ve made my case, have a nice day to all who disagree, and by all means continue to claim I am incorrect.
You're forgetting the last sentence in the Nick property. Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." The adjective "this" in the last sentence only has one possible reference "the extra attack of the light property". If you use nick you have a bonus action free, but you can't take the Light property's extra attack with that bonus action because nick explicitly says you can't.
“This” refers to Nick, not the bonus action extra attack. Thats the catch, because “instead of” changes the “When you do ( this ) to you can do (that) and ( all This) can be done once.” The “this” at the end refers to the entire mastery of Nick, if it doesn’t then anytime you can attack as a bonus action and use a light weapon you could use nick at any time. Some are already giving themselves an extra bonus action with just the Dual Wielder Feat and god knows how many other features say you can take an action as a bonus action and people are going to milk that with Nick if the last bit where to be removed.
But, as I said before and elsewhere, to each their own I guess. We agree to disagree.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You're forgetting the last sentence in the Nick property. Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." The adjective "this" in the last sentence only has one possible reference "the extra attack of the light property". If you use nick you have a bonus action free, but you can't take the Light property's extra attack with that bonus action because nick explicitly says you can't.
“This” refers to Nick, not the bonus action extra attack. Thats the catch, because “instead of” changes the “When you do ( this ) to you can do (that) and ( all This) can be done once.” The “this” at the end refers to the entire mastery of Nick, if it doesn’t then anytime you can attack as a bonus action and use a light weapon you could use nick at any time. Some are already giving themselves an extra bonus action with just the Dual Wielder Feat and god knows how many other features say you can take an action as a bonus action and people are going to milk that with Nick if the last bit where to be removed.
But, as I said before and elsewhere, to each their own I guess. We agree to disagree.
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This argument makes no sense. Nowhere does it say that there is a separate attack called the Nick attack, nor does it make sense for this in "this extra attack" to mean using the weapon mastery to move a bonus action to an action. It's impossible for this to mean "the entire mastery of Nick" as you say because it has to be an "extra attack" that was mentioned previously. The only extra attack mentioned at all in the Nick mastery is "the extra attack of the Light property". "This extra attack" can only mean "the extra attack of the Light property". You can only use Nick if you qualify for the extra attack of the light property because Nick only affects that attack.
You're forgetting the last sentence in the Nick property. Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." The adjective "this" in the last sentence only has one possible reference "the extra attack of the light property". If you use nick you have a bonus action free, but you can't take the Light property's extra attack with that bonus action because nick explicitly says you can't.
“This” refers to Nick, not the bonus action extra attack. Thats the catch, because “instead of” changes the “When you do ( this ) to you can do (that) and ( all This) can be done once.” The “this” at the end refers to the entire mastery of Nick, if it doesn’t then anytime you can attack as a bonus action and use a light weapon you could use nick at any time. Some are already giving themselves an extra bonus action with just the Dual Wielder Feat and god knows how many other features say you can take an action as a bonus action and people are going to milk that with Nick if the last bit where to be removed.
But, as I said before and elsewhere, to each their own I guess. We agree to disagree.
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This argument makes no sense. Nowhere does it say that there is a separate attack called the Nick attack, nor does it make sense for this in "this extra attack" to mean using the weapon mastery. The only extra attack mentioned at all in the Nick mastery is "the extra attack of the Light property". "This extra attack" can only mean "the extra attack of the Light property". You can only use Nick if you qualify for the extra attack of the light property because Nick only affects that attack.
And as stated before, “this” only refers to the Nick weapon Mastery as a whole, “You can make this Nick extra attack only once per turn.” “This” is talking about the mastery and the attack that is made as an Attack Action and not as a bonus action.
“This” is talking about you using two weapons, one actually having “this” mastery so “this” = “you can make the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.” which can only be done Once Per Turn.
“This” does not use your bonus action, “this” means your bonus action can still be used to make the extra attack of the Light property, meaning “this” nick mastery is giving “you” an extra attack for using the mastery.
Did you get “that”, or does “this” continue?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You're forgetting the last sentence in the Nick property. Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." The adjective "this" in the last sentence only has one possible reference "the extra attack of the light property". If you use nick you have a bonus action free, but you can't take the Light property's extra attack with that bonus action because nick explicitly says you can't.
“This” refers to Nick, not the bonus action extra attack. Thats the catch, because “instead of” changes the “When you do ( this ) to you can do (that) and ( all This) can be done once.” The “this” at the end refers to the entire mastery of Nick, if it doesn’t then anytime you can attack as a bonus action and use a light weapon you could use nick at any time. Some are already giving themselves an extra bonus action with just the Dual Wielder Feat and god knows how many other features say you can take an action as a bonus action and people are going to milk that with Nick if the last bit where to be removed.
But, as I said before and elsewhere, to each their own I guess. We agree to disagree.
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This argument makes no sense. Nowhere does it say that there is a separate attack called the Nick attack, nor does it make sense for this in "this extra attack" to mean using the weapon mastery. The only extra attack mentioned at all in the Nick mastery is "the extra attack of the Light property". "This extra attack" can only mean "the extra attack of the Light property". You can only use Nick if you qualify for the extra attack of the light property because Nick only affects that attack.
And as stated before, “this” only refers to the Nick weapon Mastery as a whole, “You can make this Nick extra attack only once per turn.” “This” is talking about the mastery and the attack that is made as an Attack Action and not as a bonus action.
“This” is talking about you using two weapons, one actually having “this” mastery so “this” = “you can make the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.” which can only be done Once Per Turn.
“This” does not use your bonus action, “this” means your bonus action can still be used to make the extra attack of the Light property, meaning “this” nick mastery is giving “you” an extra attack for using the mastery.
Did you get “that”, or does “this” continue?
"This extra attack" has to refer to an attack not an ability moving a bonus action to part of a separate action. Shouting nonsense over and over again doesn't make it correct.
FWIW, it's not just the "this", it's the "it" in the second clause of the first sentence. "It" refers to the "extra attack of the Light property". Nick, in no way, gives you an additional attack ON TOP of the extra attack of the Light property.
On a side note, I can't believe we are reduced to parsing "it" and "this"...
Plaguescarred ( et Al)
first keep in mind that some folks read the rules as anything not explicitly allowed is forbidden, others read the same rules as anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed. That leads to a bunch of arguments here. I tend to be part of the second group so hear goes.
nick does not make an explicit statement about where in the order of the two light attacks it happens - so it could be the first or the second.
So, whether first or second the Nick attack is moved into the attack action freeing the bonus action for use by other things.
Next, dual weapon fighting does require an prior attack by a a light weapon, BUT it doesn’t require this to be the light action two weapon fighting, nor does it explicitly replace the light weapon TWF, so L1-4:
1) before initiative: at least one light weapon is drawn ( pretty normal for most situations)
2) initiative, draw second light weapon, attack action( shortsword (vex)/scimitar(nick) or reverse - 2 attacks either way)
3) bonus action: dual wielding- stow one light weapon & draw long sword ( the 2 allowed by the feat) and attack with the long sword. 3 attacks in one round - your decision is whether to give the scimitar or the longsword the advantage on the attack
levels 5+ with extra attack feature:
attacks action: short sword (vex) then scimitar (nick) then short sword (vex)
bonus action: attack with long sword
total of 4 attacks in one round.
a couple of caveats:
1) this assumes that you are using the bonus action for a melee attack. This might not be true as a number of classes (like ranger) have spells they may need that bonus action for. In those cases the bonus action might come first to get things like hunter’s mark damage.
2) I’m sure someone will want to argue about the orders of the attacks - please refer back to my opening remarks in this post, and forego that discussion (again).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I really think the sentence below should have been part of the Light property rather than Nick Mastery to prevent any confusion once and for all.
I’ll go along with that Plaguescarred.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You technically can't draw or stow weapons with the bonus action attack unless another feature lets you do so like the thrown property. The attack action is what grants drawing or stowing weapons when you make attacks as a part of that action. You could still do your sequence but the last attack in the attack action would have to stow a light weapon and draw the longsword. There's also dispute about whether the draw or stow 2 weapons in the dual wielder feat means "draw 2 weapons or stow 2 weapons" or "draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat. Even with the former interpretation you can use your time limited interaction to draw the longsword.
This would definitely have been a better way to write it. I think it ran afoul of their new obsession with removing redundant language from everything. (If the Nick mastery didn't exist, you wouldn't need that sentence at all, because you only ever have one bonus action per turn anyway.)
pronouns: he/she/they
Until official ruling come say otherwise, personally i do require the extra attack to be made with the Nick weapon if you want to not use a Bonus Action.
For sure, they included it in Nick because that's the only time it matters, but it just makes things more confusing even if it functions the same.
We have the intent here:
Quoting sage advice that doesn't pertain to the dispute in question but instead about heavy weapons does not indicate intent. Even if you infer intent from that unrelated sage advice it does not contradict the plain reading of the text "draw or stow 2 weapons" in any way.
I was responding to your claim about" draw or stow 2 weapons" with the latter being the actual text of the feat, and the SAC is saying "the Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property", which contradicts your proposal.
Heavy weapons are mentioned because the SAC needs to connect Two-Handed and Heavy weapons in the explanation, but it starts by explaining the feat's Quick Draw benefit.
My apologies if my response bothered you or if you don't find it helpful.
If you use a light weapon when you take the Attack Action you can make an extra attack as a bonus action and THE bonus action attack is made with a different light weapon later in the turn and the extra attack as a bonus action does not get mod damage unless negative. So, thus far we get two attacks one as the attack action and as a bonus action but it has to be a completely different weapon right?
So if you don’t use a Nick weapon in the Attack Action then you only have 2 attacks. ( if you only have one attack ever, and a second attack is only available if you are holding two different weapons and the first has to be a light weapon then that second attack is your bonus action.)
Now, here comes Nick and it says: You make the extra attack of the light property, at this point you would think that means it only applies when making that bonus action right?, but no the rest of the statement changes that: you make that/or the extra attack as part of the Attack Action instead of( this very wording “instead of” is the part that changes the whole context of the nick mastery) as a bonus action.
[ at this point it is telling you you don’t have to take the bonus action extra attack as a bonus action later, you get to take it after using a weapon with the Nick mastery ( later in sequence if you want, but you have to use Nick weapon before you get to move the additional attack.) you can use nick to get This attack once per turn.]
So far all you did was attack once with a light property weapon that has nick, you moved an attack that could have been made as a bonus action to the Attack Action instead, and you still have the ability to take a bonus action.
[ remember instead of as a bonus action you used nick to make that attack as part of the primary Attack Action. so did you burn that Bonus Action or do you still have it? ]( you still have that Bonus Action don’t you, why? because you never used it yet. It, the bonus action itself, was never used. Nick was. Nick is an extra attack granted when you wield two different weapons one is required to be a light property weapon.)
No confusion or other bs, just straight RAW.
I’ve made my case, have a nice day to all who disagree, and by all means continue to claim I am incorrect.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You didn't bother me, but your response isn't helpful because it doesn't pertain to the discussion and doesn't contradict my claim. As you say it shows an example of how quick draw works, but it doesn't say that it is the only way it can be used. Does that example imply you can't stow 2 weapons with quick draw? The example in the light weapon feature doesn't say you can only use it with a light weapon in each hand just as this example does not exclude another usage of the feature. Just because you assert that it contradicts my claim doesn't make it so.
You're forgetting the last sentence in the Nick property. Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." The adjective "this" in the last sentence only has one possible reference "the extra attack of the light property". If you use nick you have a bonus action free, but you can't take the Light property's extra attack with that bonus action because nick explicitly says you can't.
Unfortunately it doesn’t address the fact that your using Nick weapon Mastery to burn your bonus Action.
While your at it be sure to Errata out the one bonus action per turn general rule, as your willing to give extra bonus actions out for every time something says you can do (x) as a bonus action and your free rolling Nick to run infinitely.
“You really do like hitting yourself with that shield don’t ya,” will crop up and off we go again with the same “why can’t they just clean up an clarify the rules, where’s the SAC on the Nick mastery?”
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
How many times have you been told that nobody says that?
“This” refers to Nick, not the bonus action extra attack. Thats the catch, because “instead of” changes the “When you do ( this ) to you can do (that) and ( all This) can be done once.”
The “this” at the end refers to the entire mastery of Nick, if it doesn’t then anytime you can attack as a bonus action and use a light weapon you could use nick at any time.
Some are already giving themselves an extra bonus action with just the Dual Wielder Feat and god knows how many other features say you can take an action as a bonus action and people are going to milk that with Nick if the last bit where to be removed.
But, as I said before and elsewhere, to each their own I guess. We agree to disagree.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This argument makes no sense. Nowhere does it say that there is a separate attack called the Nick attack, nor does it make sense for this in "this extra attack" to mean using the weapon mastery to move a bonus action to an action. It's impossible for this to mean "the entire mastery of Nick" as you say because it has to be an "extra attack" that was mentioned previously. The only extra attack mentioned at all in the Nick mastery is "the extra attack of the Light property". "This extra attack" can only mean "the extra attack of the Light property". You can only use Nick if you qualify for the extra attack of the light property because Nick only affects that attack.
And as stated before, “this” only refers to the Nick weapon Mastery as a whole, “You can make this Nick extra attack only once per turn.”
“This” is talking about the mastery and the attack that is made as an Attack Action and not as a bonus action.
“This” is talking about you using two weapons, one actually having “this” mastery so “this” = “you can make the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.” which can only be done Once Per Turn.
“This” does not use your bonus action, “this” means your bonus action can still be used to make the extra attack of the Light property, meaning “this” nick mastery is giving “you” an extra attack for using the mastery.
Did you get “that”, or does “this” continue?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
"This extra attack" has to refer to an attack not an ability moving a bonus action to part of a separate action. Shouting nonsense over and over again doesn't make it correct.
FWIW, it's not just the "this", it's the "it" in the second clause of the first sentence. "It" refers to the "extra attack of the Light property". Nick, in no way, gives you an additional attack ON TOP of the extra attack of the Light property.
On a side note, I can't believe we are reduced to parsing "it" and "this"...