People posting a lot of incorrect info here about Nick and the DW feat. DW enhances how dual wielding works. Let's you use any non-twohander instead of just a Light weapon for the BA. You can of course move that attack to part of the Attack action with nick, just like you can add your ability mod to it if you have the fighting style. This doesn't need to be overcomplicated.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
As other people already mentioned, if you choose to use the Nick property, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn. If not, you are limited by the Bonus Action rules.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
PS. We're getting into the same discussion we had in other threads.
And if those statements were true, then you would not have a bonus action to use metamagic feature to cast as a bonus action a spell of level 1+.
And nick does not use your bonus action. It states that instead of using your bonus action to make the extra attack you make ( this is the key, watch the lock open now…) THaT attack ( the bonus extra attack) as part of of the Attack Action. You can make ( second click of the lock…) ThIS attack once per turn.
If nick burns a bonus action attack no matter what, then WTF is the point of the Nick Weapon Mastery?
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
4Th down: NOW Dual Wielding Feat is online and that means the Shortsword weapon can be switched to a versatile d8 and relative association of mastery. 2nd level tactics still apply and with the weapon switching from DWF you can change weapons right when you surge remembering one light weapon in one hand one other weapon in the other hand.( but swapping is pain in rear, so just stay with one pair and swap between turns)
FiFTH Level [ Extra Attack Fighter Feature ]: Fun part, how to squeeze this in and keep the damage mods? ( hint stick the feature attacks in front and just use one of the two light weapons with those attacks ( 1-3 unsurged, 2-6 surging) then the scimitar[ allowing nick] + [ extra attack**]. **note: this is split the same way as in 2nd level Surge. Pre surge the light[nicking] + (Shortsword)[ extra nick attack], surge ( extra attacks[ feature ] + light weapon + bonus action( attack ).
At lv5: thats six attacks, two with a light weapon for addition of the nick and bonus action attacks + 2 from said light weapon added attacks + 2 from 5th level Extra attack Features.
Every fighter level that adds an extra attack via feature adds one attack unsurged and two if you surge. The fighting style adds the mod damage to the extra attacks from using a light weapon, and only two attacks benefits from that style: the nick moved attack and the light property bonus action attack. The Extra Attack Feature, can be made with ether weapon as long as that same weapon is used for all THOSE attacks.( the non Nick weapon is best used here.)
Your trying to pull an extra bonus action level one with DWF, but you don’t need too. Nick doesn’t use you bonus action, and if it did you by RAW only can use ONE Bonus Action per turn.
Anytime you burn that Bonus Action you DO NOT gain another Bonus Action whatsoever. Choose Wisely as to the timing of WHEN you are going to use that BA, as it will prevent other BA actions from being used.
You can not gain extra uses of you bonus action for different things, you only get 1 bonus action choice.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
[cut the quotes because this would be way to long otherwise] When you use Action Surge, you change the dynamic of how Nick functions, you can’t use nick if you already used your Bonus action before, and if you Action Surge the timing of your attacks do matter. Without surge you only get 3 attacks pre 5th level and above extra attacks, and surge at level 5 normally only means you would get with a single weapon 4 attacks, but a light nick weapon adds two more attacks to that( the nick moved attack and the light bonus action attack.) that makes 6 attacks just with the light property, Action Surge, and the 5th level extra attack feature and Dual Wielding feat only changes one of the two weapons that can be used in that entire series.
They changed light property to give nick mastery a place, changed the two-weapon fighting style because they moved two-weapon fighting from the general section into the light property and changed the Dual Wielding Feat to include the light weapon property so nick can be use with it.
It’s all now interconnected, a complete cluster(blank) and clear demonstration of how piss poor editing can cause such drastic problems in changing the two weapons fighting rules and how it now all interacts.
And as said elsewhere and before, you do you.
You make a lot of statements, but you have not disproved any of my explanations. I have provided many quotes, while you have provided none.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
As other people already mentioned, if you choose to use the Nick property, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn. If not, you are limited by the Bonus Action rules.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
PS. We're getting into the same discussion we had in other threads.
And if those statements were true, then you would not have a bonus action to use metamagic feature to cast as a bonus action a spell of level 1+.
And nick does not use your bonus action. It states that instead of using your bonus action to make the extra attack you make ( this is the key, watch the lock open now…) THaT attack ( the bonus extra attack) as part of of the Attack Action. You can make ( second click of the lock…) ThIS attack once per turn.
If nick burns a bonus action attack no matter what, then WTF is the point of the Nick Weapon Mastery?
Did you read the post?? It is literally agreeing that nick does not use up your bonus action.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Two weapon fighting goes deeper than most like to admit, and with only being able to use only one bonus action per turn, people think anytime something says you can bonus action this or that it means you get multiple uses of your bonus action.
If you have to use your bonus action to use nick, then even with the Dual Weilder Feat using nick is pointless, You would gain nothing and burn a bonus action to do so that has zero benefit because you don’t get an additional bonus action from the Dual Wielding Feat.
I’d rather burn nick per turn and get an extra attack then burn nick and get boned on bouns action economy. Which do you prefer?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
As other people already mentioned, if you choose to use the Nick property, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn. If not, you are limited by the Bonus Action rules.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
PS. We're getting into the same discussion we had in other threads.
And if those statements were true, then you would not have a bonus action to use metamagic feature to cast as a bonus action a spell of level 1+.
And nick does not use your bonus action. It states that instead of using your bonus action to make the extra attack you make ( this is the key, watch the lock open now…) THaT attack ( the bonus extra attack) as part of of the Attack Action. You can make ( second click of the lock…) ThIS attack once per turn.
If nick burns a bonus action attack no matter what, then WTF is the point of the Nick Weapon Mastery?
Did you read the post?? It is literally agreeing that nick does not use up your bonus action.
quoted: Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
You get one extra attack as a bonus action, nick doesn’t use your bonus action and still gives you the bonus action( so that means you could still use your BA to attack and Nick mastery is done.)
The above quote tries to say otherwise, but is incorrect. And because it’s from D&DBeyond staff, like SAC it’s advice.
The way two weapon fighting was changed, the addition of nick gives fighters that wield two weapons a bonus attack at the expense of the mastery once per turn, and leaves the bonus action free to use as needed.
If I use that BA to hit you in the face with your own shield, then all I can say is: “Quit hitting yourself.”
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Because this is going off, yet again, here's the breakdown of how it all works. I do not expect this to convince anyone, but anybody reading this thread for information will likely find it informative. I have no intention of debating it with the usual suspects.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative
Everything starts with the Light weapon. It's simple enough: you attack with a Light weapon, you get the ability to make a second attack as a bonus action. The only requirement it places on the second attack is that it be made with a different Light weapon. Any other requirement is house rules.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Here's where it starts getting complicated. Nick itself doesn't give you an extra attack, even though it feels like it does.
Instead, if you use the Nick mastery*, you get to use the Light property's bonus action attack as part of the attack action, instead of as a bonus action. However, by using it, you limit the Light property's extra attack to once per turn. ("You can make this extra attack only once per turn." Which attack is "this extra attack"? It must be the extra attack of the Light property, as that is the only extra attack mentioned.)
If you already used the Light property for a bonus action attack, you can't make it with Nick. If you make it with Nick first, you can't use it as a bonus action. **
Dual Wielder
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Lightproperty, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
This is where things get rather fussy, rules-wise.
Note that DW does not say "when you make the extra attack of the Light property". Instead, it keys off attacking with a weapon that has the light property. In other words, it has the same activation condition as the Light property does. So, when you make an attack with a Light weapon, you enable both the Light property's extra attack, and the DW Feat's extra attack.
Under normal circumstances, you cannot use both, because you only have one Bonus Action, and both abilities require you to use it.
However, if you have the Nick mastery, the Light property's extra attack no longer requires a BA. Therefore, there's nothing stopping you from making the DW feat's extra attack. Nick doesn't stop you, because it only restricts usage of the extra attack of the Light property, and this is the extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat.
Finally, there's this, which isn't directly relevant to the question of how many attack you get:
When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.
This particular bit of tortured wording lets you add your ability modifier to your extra attacks. But which extra attacks?
Any ones where you enable them as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property. It doesn't just apply to extra attacks of the Light property, but to any extra attack that is enabled by using a weapon with the property.
Most relevantly, that's the extra attack of Dual Wielder.
However, it technically applies to any extra attack you get from using a Light weapon. For instance, a Scimitar of Speed. However, all the extra attacks you get from other sources I can think of don't remove the stat bonus to damage, so it's irrelevant.
Anyway, that's the Light weapon rules explained. Are they fussy? They are, but they make sense on a close reading. Is the organization less than ideal? It is.
* You may notice that it never says when you must use the weapon with Nick. You are correct. It's ambiguous, but that is a separate question not discussed here.
** There is no requirement that you have a bonus action available to make a Nick-enabled attack. It does not require a bonus action, therefore you don't need one available. Again, different argument.
You get one extra attack as a bonus action, nick doesn’t use your bonus action and still gives you the bonus action( so that means you could still use your BA to attack and Nick mastery is done.)
I'm not sure to understand what you mean. If you use a Bonus Action for anything other than extra attack of the Light property, you can still make this extra attack when you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon thanks to Nick Mastery.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
As other people already mentioned, if you choose to use the Nick property, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn. If not, you are limited by the Bonus Action rules.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
PS. We're getting into the same discussion we had in other threads.
And if those statements were true, then you would not have a bonus action to use metamagic feature to cast as a bonus action a spell of level 1+.
And nick does not use your bonus action. It states that instead of using your bonus action to make the extra attack you make ( this is the key, watch the lock open now…) THaT attack ( the bonus extra attack) as part of of the Attack Action. You can make ( second click of the lock…) ThIS attack once per turn.
If nick burns a bonus action attack no matter what, then WTF is the point of the Nick Weapon Mastery?
Did you read the post?? It is literally agreeing that nick does not use up your bonus action.
quoted: Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
You get one extra attack as a bonus action, nick doesn’t use your bonus action and still gives you the bonus action( so that means you could still use your BA to attack and Nick mastery is done.)
The above quote tries to say otherwise, but is incorrect. And because it’s from D&DBeyond staff, like SAC it’s advice.
The way two weapon fighting was changed, the addition of nick gives fighters that wield two weapons a bonus attack at the expense of the mastery once per turn, and leaves the bonus action free to use as needed.
If I use that BA to hit you in the face with your own shield, then all I can say is: “Quit hitting yourself.”
You cannot use your bonus action to attack using the light property because nick limits the light property to once per turn.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
If nick is supposed to be on the weapon used in the nick attack it would be simple to chance the starting clause to "When you make the extra attack of the Light property with this weapon".
Edit: Part of the confusion also seems to be that Paradox is using the light weapon attack more than once on a turn and the Nick mastery specifically limits it to once per turn.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
There is no reason to give PT that big the benefit of the doubt. There is no interpretation of the Nick rules, reasonable or otherwise, that permits the number of attacks they claim
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Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack.
Once you make it, you no longer can make the extra attack of the Light property because you can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Because this is going off, yet again, here's the breakdown of how it all works. I do not expect this to convince anyone, but anybody reading this thread for information will likely find it informative. I have no intention of debating it with the usual suspects.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative
Everything starts with the Light weapon. It's simple enough: you attack with a Light weapon, you get the ability to make a second attack as a bonus action. The only requirement it places on the second attack is that it be made with a different Light weapon. Any other requirement is house rules.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Here's where it starts getting complicated. Nick itself doesn't give you an extra attack, even though it feels like it does.
Instead, if you use the Nick mastery*, you get to use the Light property's bonus action attack as part of the attack action, instead of as a bonus action. However, by using it, you limit the Light property's extra attack to once per turn. ("You can make this extra attack only once per turn." Which attack is "this extra attack"? It must be the extra attack of the Light property, as that is the only extra attack mentioned.)
If you already used the Light property for a bonus action attack, you can't make it with Nick. If you make it with Nick first, you can't use it as a bonus action. **
Dual Wielder
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Lightproperty, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
This is where things get rather fussy, rules-wise.
Note that DW does not say "when you make the extra attack of the Light property". Instead, it keys off attacking with a weapon that has the light property. In other words, it has the same activation condition as the Light property does. So, when you make an attack with a Light weapon, you enable both the Light property's extra attack, and the DW Feat's extra attack.
Under normal circumstances, you cannot use both, because you only have one Bonus Action, and both abilities require you to use it.
However, if you have the Nick mastery, the Light property's extra attack no longer requires a BA. Therefore, there's nothing stopping you from making the DW feat's extra attack. Nick doesn't stop you, because it only restricts usage of the extra attack of the Light property, and this is the extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat.
Finally, there's this, which isn't directly relevant to the question of how many attack you get:
When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.
This particular bit of tortured wording lets you add your ability modifier to your extra attacks. But which extra attacks?
Any ones where you enable them as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property. It doesn't just apply to extra attacks of the Light property, but to any extra attack that is enabled by using a weapon with the property.
Most relevantly, that's the extra attack of Dual Wielder.
However, it technically applies to any extra attack you get from using a Light weapon. For instance, a Scimitar of Speed. However, all the extra attacks you get from other sources I can think of don't remove the stat bonus to damage, so it's irrelevant.
Anyway, that's the Light weapon rules explained. Are they fussy? They are, but they make sense on a close reading. Is the organization less than ideal? It is.
* You may notice that it never says when you must use the weapon with Nick. You are correct. It's ambiguous, but that is a separate question not discussed here.
** There is no requirement that you have a bonus action available to make a Nick-enabled attack. It does not require a bonus action, therefore you don't need one available. Again, different argument.
In the Nick Mastery the attack it is talking about is the one your going to make as an attack action and not as a bonus action, thats why at the end it says you make This attack once. ( this refers to the nick moved attack.) It basically gives you an extra attack for dual wielding two light weapons, meaning it would give you two attacks for the attack action and your bonus action can be used however.
Again if I use that action to attack you because that attack is still an option that can be used as a bonus action, then when that attack is smacking your shield into your face “ Quit hitting yourself” becomes natural.
And the fighting style does add the damage to the extra attack as a bonus action and the attack that is moved by nick. DWF does the same as the light weapon property, and all the feature does is change the light property extra attack weapon from being light to any one handed weapon just like 2014 Dual Wielder Feat allowed the light weapons from two-weapon fighting to be one handed versatile weapons( no two-handed weapons are possible.)
Yes the way Nick is phrased, you think it has to be taken as a bonus action, but you don’t make that attack as a bonus action you make it as part of the Attack Action instead. You burn Nick to get an additional attack with a different weapon and keep your bonus action for other use as long as you are wielding/fighting with two different weapons.
And when do you use the nick mastery weapon? You have to make an attack with it in order to envoke it’s mastery, you just can not use any weapons mastery anytime you want to otherwise what ever was the point of assigning mastery’s to specific weapon types in the first place?
So you can house-rule all you care, RAW says the weapon with the mastery has to be used in the attack in order for that mastery to be enabled and you can not use a different weapon with a different weapon's mastery unless a feature says so.( I know there is a feature that allows sap, slow and a third, and that’s a whole other can of worms. )
you do you, and we shall agree to disagree.
RAW must stand on it’s own without designer intent.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
There is no reason to give PT that big the benefit of the doubt. There is no interpretation of the Nick rules, reasonable or otherwise, that permits the number of attacks they claim
I guess I did fail to also include that he seems to think that you can take the light weapon attack twice in a turn where nick specifically limits it. Editing to add that.
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People posting a lot of incorrect info here about Nick and the DW feat. DW enhances how dual wielding works. Let's you use any non-twohander instead of just a Light weapon for the BA. You can of course move that attack to part of the Attack action with nick, just like you can add your ability mod to it if you have the fighting style. This doesn't need to be overcomplicated.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
And if those statements were true, then you would not have a bonus action to use metamagic feature to cast as a bonus action a spell of level 1+.
And nick does not use your bonus action. It states that instead of using your bonus action to make the extra attack you make ( this is the key, watch the lock open now…) THaT attack ( the bonus extra attack) as part of of the Attack Action. You can make ( second click of the lock…) ThIS attack once per turn.
If nick burns a bonus action attack no matter what, then WTF is the point of the Nick Weapon Mastery?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
A Fighter wielding Shortsword/Scimitar with Nick Mastery and Dual Wielder could make for example;
1st Level: 1 Shortsword [Attack Action] + 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery]
2nd Level: 1 Shortsword [Attack Action] + 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [Attack Action]
4th Level: 1 Shortsword [Attack Action] + 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [Dual Wielder] + 1 Shortsword [Attack Action]
5th Level: 1 Shortsword [Attack Action] + 1 Shortsword [Extra Attack] + 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [Dual Wielder] + 1 Shortsword [Attack Action] + 1 Shortsword [Extra Attack
YMMV This is the most popular modus operandi i observed from game experience and forum discussions.
Fighter with just the light property with both said weapons looks like this:
1st Level: 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword [ Bonus Action ] ( note at level 1 you don’t have the 4th level DWF for that bonus action your trying to squeeze.
2nd Level: ( now action surge plays): 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery] + 1 Shortsword[ Scimitar Nick Mastery attack ] , Action Surge( note BA remains) +1 Shortsword[ doesn’t matter at this point, nick used BA remains and sequence can be ether light weapon ] + 1 Scimitar [ the different light weapon to satisfy the light weapon property Bonus Action extra attack.] (Again remember we don’t have that 4th level DWF yet! )
4Th down: NOW Dual Wielding Feat is online and that means the Shortsword weapon can be switched to a versatile d8 and relative association of mastery. 2nd level tactics still apply and with the weapon switching from DWF you can change weapons right when you surge remembering one light weapon in one hand one other weapon in the other hand.( but swapping is pain in rear, so just stay with one pair and swap between turns)
FiFTH Level [ Extra Attack Fighter Feature ]: Fun part, how to squeeze this in and keep the damage mods? ( hint stick the feature attacks in front and just use one of the two light weapons with those attacks ( 1-3 unsurged, 2-6 surging) then the scimitar[ allowing nick] + [ extra attack**].
**note: this is split the same way as in 2nd level Surge. Pre surge the light[nicking] + (Shortsword)[ extra nick attack], surge ( extra attacks[ feature ] + light weapon + bonus action( attack ).
At lv5: thats six attacks, two with a light weapon for addition of the nick and bonus action attacks + 2 from said light weapon added attacks + 2 from 5th level Extra attack Features.
Every fighter level that adds an extra attack via feature adds one attack unsurged and two if you surge.
The fighting style adds the mod damage to the extra attacks from using a light weapon, and only two attacks benefits from that style: the nick moved attack and the light property bonus action attack. The Extra Attack Feature, can be made with ether weapon as long as that same weapon is used for all THOSE attacks.( the non Nick weapon is best used here.)
Your trying to pull an extra bonus action level one with DWF, but you don’t need too. Nick doesn’t use you bonus action, and if it did you by RAW only can use ONE Bonus Action per turn.
Anytime you burn that Bonus Action you DO NOT gain another Bonus Action whatsoever. Choose Wisely as to the timing of WHEN you are going to use that BA, as it will prevent other BA actions from being used.
You can not gain extra uses of you bonus action for different things, you only get 1 bonus action choice.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You make a lot of statements, but you have not disproved any of my explanations. I have provided many quotes, while you have provided none.
Did you read the post?? It is literally agreeing that nick does not use up your bonus action.
1st Level: You can't make 3 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd Level: You can't make 4 attacks; When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack action instead. You can make this extra attack only once per turn. Then upon using Action Surge, you may take the Attack action on your turn and attack one more time.
One way or another, the extra attack of the Light property can't ever be done more than once per turn.
When you can make the extra attack of Dual Wielder with your Bonus Action at 4th Level, only then will you be able to make 4 attacks.
And as said before, you can do you.
Two weapon fighting goes deeper than most like to admit, and with only being able to use only one bonus action per turn, people think anytime something says you can bonus action this or that it means you get multiple uses of your bonus action.
If you have to use your bonus action to use nick, then even with the Dual Weilder Feat using nick is pointless, You would gain nothing and burn a bonus action to do so that has zero benefit because you don’t get an additional bonus action from the Dual Wielding Feat.
I’d rather burn nick per turn and get an extra attack then burn nick and get boned on bouns action economy. Which do you prefer?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
No one is saying this.
pronouns: he/she/they
quoted: Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
You get one extra attack as a bonus action, nick doesn’t use your bonus action and still gives you the bonus action( so that means you could still use your BA to attack and Nick mastery is done.)
The above quote tries to say otherwise, but is incorrect. And because it’s from D&DBeyond staff, like SAC it’s advice.
The way two weapon fighting was changed, the addition of nick gives fighters that wield two weapons a bonus attack at the expense of the mastery once per turn, and leaves the bonus action free to use as needed.
If I use that BA to hit you in the face with your own shield, then all I can say is: “Quit hitting yourself.”
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Because this is going off, yet again, here's the breakdown of how it all works. I do not expect this to convince anyone, but anybody reading this thread for information will likely find it informative. I have no intention of debating it with the usual suspects.
Everything starts with the Light weapon. It's simple enough: you attack with a Light weapon, you get the ability to make a second attack as a bonus action. The only requirement it places on the second attack is that it be made with a different Light weapon. Any other requirement is house rules.
Here's where it starts getting complicated. Nick itself doesn't give you an extra attack, even though it feels like it does.
Instead, if you use the Nick mastery*, you get to use the Light property's bonus action attack as part of the attack action, instead of as a bonus action. However, by using it, you limit the Light property's extra attack to once per turn. ("You can make this extra attack only once per turn." Which attack is "this extra attack"? It must be the extra attack of the Light property, as that is the only extra attack mentioned.)
If you already used the Light property for a bonus action attack, you can't make it with Nick. If you make it with Nick first, you can't use it as a bonus action. **
This is where things get rather fussy, rules-wise.
Note that DW does not say "when you make the extra attack of the Light property". Instead, it keys off attacking with a weapon that has the light property. In other words, it has the same activation condition as the Light property does. So, when you make an attack with a Light weapon, you enable both the Light property's extra attack, and the DW Feat's extra attack.
Under normal circumstances, you cannot use both, because you only have one Bonus Action, and both abilities require you to use it.
However, if you have the Nick mastery, the Light property's extra attack no longer requires a BA. Therefore, there's nothing stopping you from making the DW feat's extra attack. Nick doesn't stop you, because it only restricts usage of the extra attack of the Light property, and this is the extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat.
Finally, there's this, which isn't directly relevant to the question of how many attack you get:
This particular bit of tortured wording lets you add your ability modifier to your extra attacks. But which extra attacks?
Any ones where you enable them as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property. It doesn't just apply to extra attacks of the Light property, but to any extra attack that is enabled by using a weapon with the property.
Most relevantly, that's the extra attack of Dual Wielder.
However, it technically applies to any extra attack you get from using a Light weapon. For instance, a Scimitar of Speed. However, all the extra attacks you get from other sources I can think of don't remove the stat bonus to damage, so it's irrelevant.
Anyway, that's the Light weapon rules explained. Are they fussy? They are, but they make sense on a close reading. Is the organization less than ideal? It is.
* You may notice that it never says when you must use the weapon with Nick. You are correct. It's ambiguous, but that is a separate question not discussed here.
** There is no requirement that you have a bonus action available to make a Nick-enabled attack. It does not require a bonus action, therefore you don't need one available. Again, different argument.
I'm not sure to understand what you mean. If you use a Bonus Action for anything other than extra attack of the Light property, you can still make this extra attack when you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon thanks to Nick Mastery.
Then what’s the point of this attack sequence if the nick weapon is second?:
1st Level: 1 Shortsword [Attack Action] + 1 Scimitar [Nick Mastery]
That scimitar as the second attack is what your bonus action? You certainly could have used it first and since it has the Nick mastery that shortsword could be used twice. Not only do you miss an attack but you also burned your BA for nothing.
Nice job, and for what so you can try and squeeze advantage and not even use it.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You cannot use your bonus action to attack using the light property because nick limits the light property to once per turn.
It seems the confusion here is that Paradox assumes that the attack with the nick weapon mastery triggers the shift of the light weapon attack with light weapon other than the original nick weapon. That is probably something that needs to be addressed because it is unclear if the nick mastery has to be on the weapon used with the nick attack or if it has to be on triggering attack. I don't think Paradox's view makes the most sense but that seems to be the cause of the latest confusion.
If nick is supposed to be on the weapon used in the nick attack it would be simple to chance the starting clause to "When you make the extra attack of the Light property with this weapon".
Edit: Part of the confusion also seems to be that Paradox is using the light weapon attack more than once on a turn and the Nick mastery specifically limits it to once per turn.
There is no reason to give PT that big the benefit of the doubt. There is no interpretation of the Nick rules, reasonable or otherwise, that permits the number of attacks they claim
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When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack.
Once you make it, you no longer can make the extra attack of the Light property because you can make this extra attack only once per turn.
This is how it's intended to work.
In the Nick Mastery the attack it is talking about is the one your going to make as an attack action and not as a bonus action, thats why at the end it says you make This attack once. ( this refers to the nick moved attack.)
It basically gives you an extra attack for dual wielding two light weapons, meaning it would give you two attacks for the attack action and your bonus action can be used however.
Again if I use that action to attack you because that attack is still an option that can be used as a bonus action, then when that attack is smacking your shield into your face “ Quit hitting yourself” becomes natural.
And the fighting style does add the damage to the extra attack as a bonus action and the attack that is moved by nick. DWF does the same as the light weapon property, and all the feature does is change the light property extra attack weapon from being light to any one handed weapon just like 2014 Dual Wielder Feat allowed the light weapons from two-weapon fighting to be one handed versatile weapons( no two-handed weapons are possible.)
Yes the way Nick is phrased, you think it has to be taken as a bonus action, but you don’t make that attack as a bonus action you make it as part of the Attack Action instead. You burn Nick to get an additional attack with a different weapon and keep your bonus action for other use as long as you are wielding/fighting with two different weapons.
And when do you use the nick mastery weapon? You have to make an attack with it in order to envoke it’s mastery, you just can not use any weapons mastery anytime you want to otherwise what ever was the point of assigning mastery’s to specific weapon types in the first place?
So you can house-rule all you care, RAW says the weapon with the mastery has to be used in the attack in order for that mastery to be enabled and you can not use a different weapon with a different weapon's mastery unless a feature says so.( I know there is a feature that allows sap, slow and a third, and that’s a whole other can of worms. )
you do you, and we shall agree to disagree.
RAW must stand on it’s own without designer intent.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I guess I did fail to also include that he seems to think that you can take the light weapon attack twice in a turn where nick specifically limits it. Editing to add that.