I personally think it would have been sensible for the new Sage Advice to include a thorough discussion of how Light weapons, the Nick property, Two-Weapon Fighting, the Two-Weapon Fighting style, and dual wielding all combine. It is one area I find horrendously confusing. The 2014 version was much cleaner and clearer, and that seemed to have caused much confusion in many itself.
I do find this strange. If I had to rank all the various questions Sage Advice needs to address, the #1 question would be two-weapon fighting interactions - by a large margin.
I get a vague impression that if something which pretty obviously needs to be addressed was not addressed by this Sage Advice it's because they are at least thinking about changing something via errata "soon (TM)".
I get a vague impression that if something which pretty obviously needs to be addressed was not addressed by this Sage Advice it's because they are at least thinking about changing something via errata "soon (TM)".
I get a vague impression that if something which pretty obviously needs to be addressed was not addressed by this Sage Advice it's because they are at least thinking about changing something via errata "soon (TM)".
There is no indication of anything of the sort.
Well too bad it’s advice and not Official Rules. The very feature tells you the additional attack is made with a different weapon that is in the other hand. That would mean you would have to ether drop the shield or juggle it so the additional attack is made with the other hand.
The question never asked if the same hand that made the first light weapon attack could be used to swap weapons and still gain the light property bonus action extra attack did it?
They answered the question of do you have to use your other hand and a different weapon to gain the bonus attack. The question literally had the other hand mentioned in it, so it implied the extra bonus attack would have to be made by the other hand wielding a different light weapon.
That means you ether have to take a shield into account when juggling, swapping hands, or you can’t just use the same hand to make the additional attack by simply switching weapons.
The phrasing of the question frames how it would be answered, and the question was do you need to use your other hand with a different weapon to gain the bonus extra attack.
( if the actual mention of the other hand had been included in the answer, instead of the typical partly correct way, people would catch the fact that the light additional attack is made with a different hand not the same one that made the first light weapon attack.)
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
So, weapon juggling just got the shield tossed into the mix. Interesting.
I did notice that it says in the question: “With the other hand”, meaning the drawing of the second weapon has to be done with the other hand.
No, it does not. The question is about a specific scenario, but the answer is explicit that the only restriction is that the weapon is different:
The only requirement for the Light property’s extra attack is that it’s made with a different Light weapon.
Well too bad it’s advice and not Official Rules.
Sage advice is literally the official rules clarifications.
It's certainly possible for them to make an error, but this ruling is entirely consistent with the actual text of the rules, so there is no reason to believe they did.
The very feature tells you the additional attack is made with a different weapon that is in the other hand. That would mean you would have to ether drop the shield or juggle it so the additional attack is made with the other hand.
The very feature says nothing of the sort:
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
It does then follow this with "For example", and describe a two-handed weapon situation, but that is an example. It is not part of the rule, much less the entirety of the rule.
The question never asked if the same hand that made the first light weapon attack could be used to swap weapons and still gain the light property bonus action extra attack did it?
It didn't, but the answer said "The only requirement for the Light property’s extra attack is that it’s made with a different Light weapon."
The requirement that it be in a different hand would be a requirement other than it being made with a different Light weapon.
Nobody says you have to like the ruling. Nobody says you have to play it that way at your table. But it says what it says.
So, weapon juggling just got the shield tossed into the mix. Interesting.
I did notice that it says in the question: “With the other hand”, meaning the drawing of the second weapon has to be done with the other hand.
No, it does not. The question is about a specific scenario, but the answer is explicit that the only restriction is that the weapon is different:
The only requirement for the Light property’s extra attack is that it’s made with a different Light weapon.
Well too bad it’s advice and not Official Rules.
Sage advice is literally the official rules clarifications.
It's certainly possible for them to make an error, but this ruling is entirely consistent with the actual text of the rules, so there is no reason to believe they did.
The very feature tells you the additional attack is made with a different weapon that is in the other hand. That would mean you would have to ether drop the shield or juggle it so the additional attack is made with the other hand.
The very feature says nothing of the sort:
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
It does then follow this with "For example", and describe a two-handed weapon situation, but that is an example. It is not part of the rule, much less the entirety of the rule.
The question never asked if the same hand that made the first light weapon attack could be used to swap weapons and still gain the light property bonus action extra attack did it?
It didn't, but the answer said "The only requirement for the Light property’s extra attack is that it’s made with a different Light weapon."
The requirement that it be in a different hand would be a requirement other than it being made with a different Light weapon.
Nobody says you have to like the ruling. Nobody says you have to play it that way at your table. But it says what it says.
And the question asked stated using the other hand. If the question that had been asked was “if the same hand that made the first attack can be the same hand that makes the extra bonus action attack of the light weapon property, or does it require you to hold two different light weapons one in each hand?” Then, with a far better answer, we could have enough clarity to know what the true intent is. Currently as it is, the Sage question just leaves the question asked stated using it currently is, what was the actual intent.
A half answered question does not a clarification make.
It’s still a toss up on what is the actual intent.
We can both agree to disagree, but the intent I believe was to cram the 2014 version of Two Weapon Dual Wielding into the Light weapon Property so Nick Weapon Mastery has a standard weapon property for use.
ever noticed how both the light property and Nick say nothing about the weapon with the nick mastery having to hit or miss, just that you get to make an extra attack for using the light property and gaining the bonus action of an attack.
If you have to juggle weapons to swap out different weapons one handed, then wouldn’t that mean the nicking weapon has to be used first? You know the weapon in hand is the weapon that has the particular mastery that is being used at the moment?
If the intent was to give anyone with a light weapon an extra attack whenever, then why add the provision the additional attack does not benefit from proficiency and ability mod unless negative?
And the example given is to demonstrate what the intent possibly is, so disregarding it is just as bad as never having put it in there in the first place.
As it stands, SAC is still only advice, and still requires clarification.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
If the intent was to give anyone with a light weapon an extra attack whenever, then why add the provision the additional attack does not benefit from proficiency and ability mod unless negative?
Because it would be overpowered otherwise. It's not that hard to understand.
Ether you give up using a Shield to gain an extra bonus action attack, or you can’t use nick weapon mastery one handed and gain an additional attack.
Juggling one weapon to make additional attacks is far too much in the things that have to occur in a short period of time to ever justify the where the heck is a person getting all the required actions to even achieve this.
And no, you only get to draw OR stow a weapon as part of the attack action, and you would have to use your free weapon and Utilize Action to get 3/4 of the way to a full weapon rotation.( unless initial weapon is already in hand.)
Your fighting for something, not playing golf and picking your weapons at the moment your about to attack, bad enough one has to lug a golf bag of weapon holding to be prepared for anything, now we have to wait for club selection?
I don’t think the intent was for players to hold up play because not everyone runs it the same way.
And the question asked about the light property was if you gain the extra attack if you use the other hand to attack, answer was yes the weapon has to be a different light weapon. So, how much juggling is too much?
Ether give up the shield and gain additional actions, or keep the shield and excessive juggling and run out of actions, one or the other.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I get a vague impression that if something which pretty obviously needs to be addressed was not addressed by this Sage Advice it's because they are at least thinking about changing something via errata "soon (TM)".
There is no indication of anything of the sort.
Sure there is. It's in the vague impression that I got. Don't you see it?
The Dual Wielder feat allows you to simultaneously draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property. All Heavy weapons in the Player’s Handbook have the Two-Handed property, so they don’t benefit from this feat. (However, if we were to create a Heavy weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property in the future, that weapon could be used with this feat!)
Say for example, you have the two-weapon fighting style and the Duel Wielder feat and you're going to use a short sword and long sword (since it's not a two handed weapon) and you make your first attack with a short sword with the VEX mastery and then make your extra attack with the long sword and the SAP mastery, which weapon would you use to make your bonus action attack, or can you choose either of those two weapons? If you can choose the long sword, you can give them disadvantage with SAP, if they survive and are able to attack you.
I'm a level 5 Battle Master and I am toying with the idea of trying to do the above, I'm just not sure that I understand it properly and would the damage output these three attacks exceed just two attacks with a long sword and the Dueling fighting style, which grants a plus 2 to damage and also considers my +4 from my Strength ability modifier. I also have Battle Axe and Warhammer weapons and masteries.
I'm still fairly new to this, so I am not sure of the average DPR for each scenario.
Say for example, you have the two-weapon fighting style and the Duel Wielder feat and you're going to use a short sword and long sword (since it's not a two handed weapon) and you make your first attack with a short sword with the VEX mastery and then make your extra attack with the long sword and the SAP mastery, which weapon would you use to make your bonus action attack, or can you choose either of those two weapons? If you can choose the long sword, you can give them disadvantage with SAP, if they survive and are able to attack you.
The Light property requires you to make an attack with a Light weapon, in your case that would be the Short Sword, to then be allowed to make a BA attack with a different weapon, which thus would be the Long Sword. If you can make more attacks during your attack action then those can be made with either weapon without affecting the "Light weapon -> BA attack" mechanics.
Thezzaruz already answered you, LeoDillon, but if I may, I had the same doubt in the past with an specific example and some folks helped me with the following answers:
Let's first look at our options without weapon juggling:
Option 1: Simply stick to Light weapons:
Hold a Shortsword and a Scimitar
Attack with Shortsword (Vex)
Attack with Shortsword again (Vex)
Nick Attack with Scimitar
Bonus Action Attack with Shortsword (Vex)
[...]
Reading this example again, I now have a doubt.
Shouldn't the last step (Bonus Action Attack) be done with the Scimitar? I'm asking because of the snippets that mention "... extra attack must be made with a different weapon."
The DW attack is triggered by every attack with a light weapon, including the nick attack.
Shouldn't the last step (Bonus Action Attack) be done with the Scimitar? I'm asking because of the snippets that mention "... extra attack must be made with a different weapon."
Not necessarily if you consider the Scimitar attack made as part of the Attack action to be the one trigerring the Bonus Action attack from Dual Wielder feat .
Always try to keep in mind the following pieces: 1) the light weapon two weapon fighting requires that BOTH weapons be light. So you can’t dotwo weapon fighting with a short sword and a long sword. 2) Nick moves the bonus action attack to become part of the attack action. This frees the bonus action for other things. There seems to be some controversy over whether the Nick attack has to be the second attack or not, my personal take is that it doesn’t. 3) the two weapon fighting STYLE grants you your stat bonuses to the additional attacks which don’t get it under the light weapon two weapon fighting. 4) the dual weapon fighting feat is not the light weapon two weapon fighting, it is a separate thing granting you a bonus action attack with a non two handed weapon. This could be a light weapon or it could be something like a long sword or battleaxe. Further, it grants you the ability to draw ( or stow) 2 weapons instead of one in that round. (my personal reading of of this is that you can do one of three things - A: draw two weapons, b: stow two weapons, c: stow one weapon and draw one (different) weapon). Assuming you are carrying 2 light weapons an a regular weapon and have both the two weapon fighting style and the dual weapon fighting feat you would get (before level 5) 2 attacks with the light weapons (one from a Nick weapon) during the attack action and a bonus action attack with the normal weapon (stowing one light weapon and drawing the normal weapon) all of which would get your appropriate stat bonuses on to hit and damage. After L5 you would get 4 attacks - 3 in the attack action and one in the bonus action.
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits. Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20. Enhanced Dual Wielding. **** When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property,
Remember this?
you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property.
And see above Fighting Style: Two Weapons,
You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative. Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one. PHB(2024)
And for comparison :
Light
*** When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon,
Sound familiar,
you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon,
*** Actually with Dual Wielding Feat that weapon can be any weapon that does not require two-hands to wield, so Fighting Style is good to use for additional damage,
and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative. ( declarative inference of intent perhaps?)
Which means by using a light weapon say scimitar for nick, and two weapon fighting style and the enhanced dual wielding feature of the feat, both the attack made from nick and the bonus action attack - which is made by a different weapon - gain the bonus of the fighting style.
The different weapon by way of dual wielding feat allows that weapon to override the light property requirement of the extra attack with a different light weapon.
With a scimitar as the light weapon in one hand, and the wide number of various non two-handed( Versatile) weapons with varying mastery’s, the math get’s ugly.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The above is incorrect. DW, while it keys off an attack with the Light property, is not the attack of the Light property. It is a separate ability. The only thing preventing you from using them both normally is the lack of a second bonus action. If you have Nick, which lets you use the Light property's attack without a bonus action, your BA is free for use with the extra attack of the DW feat.
People tend to assume that the two abilities are the same, because they both trigger off attacking with a light weapon, but if they'd wanted DW to modify the Light property's attack, they could've made it more like Nick, and said something like "when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can use any weapon that is not blah blah blah". They didn't.
Also, if it doesn't give you the extra attack, Dual Wielder is a really crap feat.
The above is incorrect. DW, while it keys off an attack with the Light property, is not the attack of the Light property. It is a separate ability. The only thing preventing you from using them both normally is the lack of a second bonus action. If you have Nick, which lets you use the Light property's attack without a bonus action, your BA is free for use with the extra attack of the DW feat.
People tend to assume that the two abilities are the same, because they both trigger off attacking with a light weapon, but if they'd wanted DW to modify the Light property's attack, they could've made it more like Nick, and said something like "when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can use any weapon that is not blah blah blah". They didn't.
Also, if it doesn't give you the extra attack, Dual Wielder is a really crap feat.
No my post is correct, your comment is however in error.
Both the nick moved attack and the bonus action attack benefit from the Two Weapon fighting style when you are wielding two weapons.
The Dual Wielder Feat of 2024 still works as it did in 2014, the enhanced wielding section allows one weapon to be a non two-handed weapon that can be used as the additional weapon attack that nick moves and be the extra weapon attack that is the bonus action granted by the light property.
Since both of those two attacks are from using the light weapon property the fighting style of two weapon fighting grants the bonus damage to both those attacks.
Using a Nick weapon to move the extra attack from ether the light property or the dual wielding feat DOES NOT use the bonus action attack granted by those features.
You do not have to take the dual wielding feat to make 4 attacks at level 5 because just the light property with one weapon having nick and the other weapon ( the one moved by nick or that is a bonus action attack has to be a different weapon.)
A great number of people tend to forget the fighters second level feature of Action Surge and that makes a difference.
While you believe like others that you can use nick when taking a bonus action attack or not even need to use the weapon that has the nick mastery at all to gain the additional attacks, that understanding is incorrect.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
When you hit a level that grants an extra attack as pat of the Attack Action, that attack is best made before using the nicking weapon as if you were just using a one handed weapon and no other weapon in the other hand.( in reality the other weapon is acting as a shield and is there just to enable the nick feature and the bonus action extra attack.)
It still functions as it did with 2014 when wielding two weapons, only they nerfed the fighting style and Dual Wielding Feat because wielding two weapons with higher than a d6 worth of damage is considered too OP.
And god forbid the magic casters see the martial classes get the ability to out damage them by shear ability, can’t have those front liners hogging all the kills. So you can hate how it actually works all you want, but tell me you don’t know how a fighter works without telling me: Oh wait you do that every time you say “that is incorrect”.
And if you use your bonus action in a turn before using the nick mastery ( doing whatever), no you do not get the nick extra attack as the rules plainly and clearly say you only get ONE bonus Action ever to use and that action can be a multitude of other actions, but you don’t get more than only ONE bonus action.
DWF is an attack with a light weapon that then grants the same feature as the light property( the Nick ability and the bonus action attack) and just allows for THAT other weapon to not be required to be a light weapon and not a weapon that requires two-hands to attack with.
So you do you, but you should know what you’re talking about otherwise being “incorrect” is a you thing not others.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The above is incorrect. DW, while it keys off an attack with the Light property, is not the attack of the Light property. It is a separate ability. The only thing preventing you from using them both normally is the lack of a second bonus action. If you have Nick, which lets you use the Light property's attack without a bonus action, your BA is free for use with the extra attack of the DW feat.
People tend to assume that the two abilities are the same, because they both trigger off attacking with a light weapon, but if they'd wanted DW to modify the Light property's attack, they could've made it more like Nick, and said something like "when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can use any weapon that is not blah blah blah". They didn't.
Also, if it doesn't give you the extra attack, Dual Wielder is a really crap feat.
No my post is correct, your comment is however in error.
Both the nick moved attack and the bonus action attack benefit from the Two Weapon fighting style when you are wielding two weapons.
The Dual Wielder Feat of 2024 still works as it did in 2014, the enhanced wielding section allows one weapon to be a non two-handed weapon that can be used as the additional weapon attack that nick moves and be the extra weapon attack that is the bonus action granted by the light property.
Since both of those two attacks are from using the light weapon property the fighting style of two weapon fighting grants the bonus damage to both those attacks.
Using a Nick weapon to move the extra attack from ether the light property or the dual wielding feat DOES NOT use the bonus action attack granted by those features.
You do not have to take the dual wielding feat to make 4 attacks at level 5 because just the light property with one weapon having nick and the other weapon ( the one moved by nick or that is a bonus action attack has to be a different weapon.)
A great number of people tend to forget the fighters second level feature of Action Surge and that makes a difference.
It is not great practice to change the parameters of a point mid-argument. (here you are changing 4 attacks per turn to 4 attack in a one time burst)
While you believe like others that you can use nick when taking a bonus action attack or not even need to use the weapon that has the nick mastery at all to gain the additional attacks, that understanding is incorrect.
You do not need your bonus action available to use nick. The wording used is not unique, and is also present in the Quickened Spell metamagic.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." It seems clear to me that "this extra attack" is talking about the thing referred to as "the extra attack".
When you hit a level that grants an extra attack as pat of the Attack Action, that attack is best made before using the nicking weapon as if you were just using a one handed weapon and no other weapon in the other hand.( in reality the other weapon is acting as a shield and is there just to enable the nick feature and the bonus action extra attack.)
It still functions as it did with 2014 when wielding two weapons, only they nerfed the fighting style and Dual Wielding Feat because wielding two weapons with higher than a d6 worth of damage is considered too OP.
And god forbid the magic casters see the martial classes get the ability to out damage them by shear ability, can’t have those front liners hogging all the kills. So you can hate how it actually works all you want, but tell me you don’t know how a fighter works without telling me: Oh wait you do that every time you say “that is incorrect”.
And if you use your bonus action in a turn before using the nick mastery ( doing whatever), no you do not get the nick extra attack as the rules plainly and clearly say you only get ONE bonus Action ever to use and that action can be a multitude of other actions, but you don’t get more than only ONE bonus action.
The rules for nick specify "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
DWF is an attack with a light weapon that then grants the same feature as the light property( the Nick ability and the bonus action attack) and just allows for THAT other weapon to not be required to be a light weapon and not a weapon that requires two-hands to attack with.
So you do you, but you should know what you’re talking about otherwise being “incorrect” is a you thing not others.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
As other people already mentioned, if you choose to use the Nick property, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn. If not, you are limited by the Bonus Action rules.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
PS. We're getting into the same discussion we had in other threads.
The above is incorrect. DW, while it keys off an attack with the Light property, is not the attack of the Light property. It is a separate ability. The only thing preventing you from using them both normally is the lack of a second bonus action. If you have Nick, which lets you use the Light property's attack without a bonus action, your BA is free for use with the extra attack of the DW feat.
People tend to assume that the two abilities are the same, because they both trigger off attacking with a light weapon, but if they'd wanted DW to modify the Light property's attack, they could've made it more like Nick, and said something like "when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can use any weapon that is not blah blah blah". They didn't.
Also, if it doesn't give you the extra attack, Dual Wielder is a really crap feat.
No my post is correct, your comment is however in error.
Both the nick moved attack and the bonus action attack benefit from the Two Weapon fighting style when you are wielding two weapons.
The Dual Wielder Feat of 2024 still works as it did in 2014, the enhanced wielding section allows one weapon to be a non two-handed weapon that can be used as the additional weapon attack that nick moves and be the extra weapon attack that is the bonus action granted by the light property.
Since both of those two attacks are from using the light weapon property the fighting style of two weapon fighting grants the bonus damage to both those attacks.
Using a Nick weapon to move the extra attack from ether the light property or the dual wielding feat DOES NOT use the bonus action attack granted by those features.
You do not have to take the dual wielding feat to make 4 attacks at level 5 because just the light property with one weapon having nick and the other weapon ( the one moved by nick or that is a bonus action attack has to be a different weapon.)
A great number of people tend to forget the fighters second level feature of Action Surge and that makes a difference.
It is not great practice to change the parameters of a point mid-argument. (here you are changing 4 attacks per turn to 4 attack in a one time burst)
While you believe like others that you can use nick when taking a bonus action attack or not even need to use the weapon that has the nick mastery at all to gain the additional attacks, that understanding is incorrect.
You do not need your bonus action available to use nick. The wording used is not unique, and is also present in the Quickened Spell metamagic.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." It seems clear to me that "this extra attack" is talking about the thing referred to as "the extra attack".
When you hit a level that grants an extra attack as pat of the Attack Action, that attack is best made before using the nicking weapon as if you were just using a one handed weapon and no other weapon in the other hand.( in reality the other weapon is acting as a shield and is there just to enable the nick feature and the bonus action extra attack.)
It still functions as it did with 2014 when wielding two weapons, only they nerfed the fighting style and Dual Wielding Feat because wielding two weapons with higher than a d6 worth of damage is considered too OP.
And god forbid the magic casters see the martial classes get the ability to out damage them by shear ability, can’t have those front liners hogging all the kills. So you can hate how it actually works all you want, but tell me you don’t know how a fighter works without telling me: Oh wait you do that every time you say “that is incorrect”.
And if you use your bonus action in a turn before using the nick mastery ( doing whatever), no you do not get the nick extra attack as the rules plainly and clearly say you only get ONE bonus Action ever to use and that action can be a multitude of other actions, but you don’t get more than only ONE bonus action.
The rules for nick specify "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
DWF is an attack with a light weapon that then grants the same feature as the light property( the Nick ability and the bonus action attack) and just allows for THAT other weapon to not be required to be a light weapon and not a weapon that requires two-hands to attack with.
So you do you, but you should know what you’re talking about otherwise being “incorrect” is a you thing not others.
When you use Action Surge, you change the dynamic of how Nick functions, you can’t use nick if you already used your Bonus action before, and if you Action Surge the timing of your attacks do matter. Without surge you only get 3 attacks pre 5th level and above extra attacks, and surge at level 5 normally only means you would get with a single weapon 4 attacks, but a light nick weapon adds two more attacks to that( the nick moved attack and the light bonus action attack.) that makes 6 attacks just with the light property, Action Surge, and the 5th level extra attack feature and Dual Wielding feat only changes one of the two weapons that can be used in that entire series.
They changed light property to give nick mastery a place, changed the two-weapon fighting style because they moved two-weapon fighting from the general section into the light property and changed the Dual Wielding Feat to include the light weapon property so nick can be use with it.
It’s all now interconnected, a complete cluster(blank) and clear demonstration of how piss poor editing can cause such drastic problems in changing the two weapons fighting rules and how it now all interacts.
And as said elsewhere and before, you do you.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
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I do find this strange. If I had to rank all the various questions Sage Advice needs to address, the #1 question would be two-weapon fighting interactions - by a large margin.
I get a vague impression that if something which pretty obviously needs to be addressed was not addressed by this Sage Advice it's because they are at least thinking about changing something via errata "soon (TM)".
No, it does not. The question is about a specific scenario, but the answer is explicit that the only restriction is that the weapon is different:
There is no indication of anything of the sort.
Well too bad it’s advice and not Official Rules. The very feature tells you the additional attack is made with a different weapon that is in the other hand. That would mean you would have to ether drop the shield or juggle it so the additional attack is made with the other hand.
The question never asked if the same hand that made the first light weapon attack could be used to swap weapons and still gain the light property bonus action extra attack did it?
They answered the question of do you have to use your other hand and a different weapon to gain the bonus attack. The question literally had the other hand mentioned in it, so it implied the extra bonus attack would have to be made by the other hand wielding a different light weapon.
That means you ether have to take a shield into account when juggling, swapping hands, or you can’t just use the same hand to make the additional attack by simply switching weapons.
The phrasing of the question frames how it would be answered, and the question was do you need to use your other hand with a different weapon to gain the bonus extra attack.
( if the actual mention of the other hand had been included in the answer, instead of the typical partly correct way, people would catch the fact that the light additional attack is made with a different hand not the same one that made the first light weapon attack.)
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Sage advice is literally the official rules clarifications.
It's certainly possible for them to make an error, but this ruling is entirely consistent with the actual text of the rules, so there is no reason to believe they did.
The very feature says nothing of the sort:
It does then follow this with "For example", and describe a two-handed weapon situation, but that is an example. It is not part of the rule, much less the entirety of the rule.
It didn't, but the answer said "The only requirement for the Light property’s extra attack is that it’s made with a different Light weapon."
The requirement that it be in a different hand would be a requirement other than it being made with a different Light weapon.
Nobody says you have to like the ruling. Nobody says you have to play it that way at your table. But it says what it says.
And the question asked stated using the other hand. If the question that had been asked was “if the same hand that made the first attack can be the same hand that makes the extra bonus action attack of the light weapon property, or does it require you to hold two different light weapons one in each hand?”
Then, with a far better answer, we could have enough clarity to know what the true intent is. Currently as it is, the Sage question just leaves the question asked stated using it currently is, what was the actual intent.
A half answered question does not a clarification make.
It’s still a toss up on what is the actual intent.
We can both agree to disagree, but the intent I believe was to cram the 2014 version of Two Weapon Dual Wielding into the Light weapon Property so Nick Weapon Mastery has a standard weapon property for use.
ever noticed how both the light property and Nick say nothing about the weapon with the nick mastery having to hit or miss, just that you get to make an extra attack for using the light property and gaining the bonus action of an attack.
If you have to juggle weapons to swap out different weapons one handed, then wouldn’t that mean the nicking weapon has to be used first? You know the weapon in hand is the weapon that has the particular mastery that is being used at the moment?
If the intent was to give anyone with a light weapon an extra attack whenever, then why add the provision the additional attack does not benefit from proficiency and ability mod unless negative?
And the example given is to demonstrate what the intent possibly is, so disregarding it is just as bad as never having put it in there in the first place.
As it stands, SAC is still only advice, and still requires clarification.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Because it would be overpowered otherwise. It's not that hard to understand.
Ether you give up using a Shield to gain an extra bonus action attack, or you can’t use nick weapon mastery one handed and gain an additional attack.
Juggling one weapon to make additional attacks is far too much in the things that have to occur in a short period of time to ever justify the where the heck is a person getting all the required actions to even achieve this.
And no, you only get to draw OR stow a weapon as part of the attack action, and you would have to use your free weapon and Utilize Action to get 3/4 of the way to a full weapon rotation.( unless initial weapon is already in hand.)
Your fighting for something, not playing golf and picking your weapons at the moment your about to attack, bad enough one has to lug a golf bag of weapon holding to be prepared for anything, now we have to wait for club selection?
I don’t think the intent was for players to hold up play because not everyone runs it the same way.
And the question asked about the light property was if you gain the extra attack if you use the other hand to attack, answer was yes the weapon has to be a different light weapon. So, how much juggling is too much?
Ether give up the shield and gain additional actions, or keep the shield and excessive juggling and run out of actions, one or the other.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Sure there is. It's in the vague impression that I got. Don't you see it?
Say for example, you have the two-weapon fighting style and the Duel Wielder feat and you're going to use a short sword and long sword (since it's not a two handed weapon) and you make your first attack with a short sword with the VEX mastery and then make your extra attack with the long sword and the SAP mastery, which weapon would you use to make your bonus action attack, or can you choose either of those two weapons? If you can choose the long sword, you can give them disadvantage with SAP, if they survive and are able to attack you.
I'm a level 5 Battle Master and I am toying with the idea of trying to do the above, I'm just not sure that I understand it properly and would the damage output these three attacks exceed just two attacks with a long sword and the Dueling fighting style, which grants a plus 2 to damage and also considers my +4 from my Strength ability modifier. I also have Battle Axe and Warhammer weapons and masteries.
I'm still fairly new to this, so I am not sure of the average DPR for each scenario.
The Light property requires you to make an attack with a Light weapon, in your case that would be the Short Sword, to then be allowed to make a BA attack with a different weapon, which thus would be the Long Sword. If you can make more attacks during your attack action then those can be made with either weapon without affecting the "Light weapon -> BA attack" mechanics.
Thezzaruz already answered you, LeoDillon, but if I may, I had the same doubt in the past with an specific example and some folks helped me with the following answers:
Always try to keep in mind the following pieces:
1) the light weapon two weapon fighting requires that BOTH weapons be light. So you can’t dotwo weapon fighting with a short sword and a long sword.
2) Nick moves the bonus action attack to become part of the attack action. This frees the bonus action for other things. There seems to be some controversy over whether the Nick attack has to be the second attack or not, my personal take is that it doesn’t.
3) the two weapon fighting STYLE grants you your stat bonuses to the additional attacks which don’t get it under the light weapon two weapon fighting.
4) the dual weapon fighting feat is not the light weapon two weapon fighting, it is a separate thing granting you a bonus action attack with a non two handed weapon. This could be a light weapon or it could be something like a long sword or battleaxe. Further, it grants you the ability to draw ( or stow) 2 weapons instead of one in that round. (my personal reading of of this is that you can do one of three things - A: draw two weapons, b: stow two weapons, c: stow one weapon and draw one (different) weapon).
Assuming you are carrying 2 light weapons an a regular weapon and have both the two weapon fighting style and the dual weapon fighting feat you would get (before level 5) 2 attacks with the light weapons (one from a Nick weapon) during the attack action and a bonus action attack with the normal weapon (stowing one light weapon and drawing the normal weapon) all of which would get your appropriate stat bonuses on to hit and damage. After L5 you would get 4 attacks - 3 in the attack action and one in the bonus action.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighting Style Feat (Prerequisite: Fighting Style Feature)
When you make an extra attack as a result of using
a
weapon that has the Light property,
you can add your ability modifier to the damage of
that
attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/feats#TwoWeaponFighting
Dual Wielder
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding.
**** When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property,
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
PHB(2024)
Light
*** When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon,
Sound familiar,
you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon,
*** Actually with Dual Wielding Feat that weapon can be any weapon that does not require two-hands to wield, so Fighting Style is good to use for additional damage,
and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
( declarative inference of intent perhaps?)
Which means by using a light weapon say scimitar for nick, and two weapon fighting style and the enhanced dual wielding feature of the feat, both the attack made from nick and the bonus action attack - which is made by a different weapon - gain the bonus of the fighting style.
The different weapon by way of dual wielding feat allows that weapon to override the light property requirement of the extra attack with a different light weapon.
With a scimitar as the light weapon in one hand, and the wide number of various non two-handed( Versatile) weapons with varying mastery’s, the math get’s ugly.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The above is incorrect. DW, while it keys off an attack with the Light property, is not the attack of the Light property. It is a separate ability. The only thing preventing you from using them both normally is the lack of a second bonus action. If you have Nick, which lets you use the Light property's attack without a bonus action, your BA is free for use with the extra attack of the DW feat.
People tend to assume that the two abilities are the same, because they both trigger off attacking with a light weapon, but if they'd wanted DW to modify the Light property's attack, they could've made it more like Nick, and said something like "when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can use any weapon that is not blah blah blah". They didn't.
Also, if it doesn't give you the extra attack, Dual Wielder is a really crap feat.
No my post is correct, your comment is however in error.
Both the nick moved attack and the bonus action attack benefit from the Two Weapon fighting style when you are wielding two weapons.
The Dual Wielder Feat of 2024 still works as it did in 2014, the enhanced wielding section allows one weapon to be a non two-handed weapon that can be used as the additional weapon attack that nick moves and be the extra weapon attack that is the bonus action granted by the light property.
Since both of those two attacks are from using the light weapon property the fighting style of two weapon fighting grants the bonus damage to both those attacks.
Using a Nick weapon to move the extra attack from ether the light property or the dual wielding feat DOES NOT use the bonus action attack granted by those features.
You do not have to take the dual wielding feat to make 4 attacks at level 5 because just the light property with one weapon having nick and the other weapon ( the one moved by nick or that is a bonus action attack has to be a different weapon.)
A great number of people tend to forget the fighters second level feature of Action Surge and that makes a difference.
While you believe like others that you can use nick when taking a bonus action attack or not even need to use the weapon that has the nick mastery at all to gain the additional attacks, that understanding is incorrect.
By level 2 and wielding two different light weapons, with Action Surge a scimitar and a shortsword gets you 4 attacks. [ first attack is with scimitar that has nick which moves the extra attack with shortsword to Attack Action ( 2nd attack), Surge then scimitar again ( 3rd attack) with bonus action shortsword as 4th attack. ]
When you hit a level that grants an extra attack as pat of the Attack Action, that attack is best made before using the nicking weapon as if you were just using a one handed weapon and no other weapon in the other hand.( in reality the other weapon is acting as a shield and is there just to enable the nick feature and the bonus action extra attack.)
It still functions as it did with 2014 when wielding two weapons, only they nerfed the fighting style and Dual Wielding Feat because wielding two weapons with higher than a d6 worth of damage is considered too OP.
And god forbid the magic casters see the martial classes get the ability to out damage them by shear ability, can’t have those front liners hogging all the kills.
So you can hate how it actually works all you want, but tell me you don’t know how a fighter works without telling me: Oh wait you do that every time you say “that is incorrect”.
And if you use your bonus action in a turn before using the nick mastery ( doing whatever), no you do not get the nick extra attack as the rules plainly and clearly say you only get ONE bonus Action ever to use and that action can be a multitude of other actions, but you don’t get more than only ONE bonus action.
DWF is an attack with a light weapon that then grants the same feature as the light property( the Nick ability and the bonus action attack) and just allows for THAT other weapon to not be required to be a light weapon and not a weapon that requires two-hands to attack with.
So you do you, but you should know what you’re talking about otherwise being “incorrect” is a you thing not others.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It is not great practice to change the parameters of a point mid-argument. (here you are changing 4 attacks per turn to 4 attack in a one time burst)
You do not need your bonus action available to use nick. The wording used is not unique, and is also present in the Quickened Spell metamagic.
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." It seems clear to me that "this extra attack" is talking about the thing referred to as "the extra attack".
The rules for nick specify "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
As other people already mentioned, if you choose to use the Nick property, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn. If not, you are limited by the Bonus Action rules.
From the pre-release article, Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook (emphasis mine):
PS. We're getting into the same discussion we had in other threads.
When you use Action Surge, you change the dynamic of how Nick functions, you can’t use nick if you already used your Bonus action before, and if you Action Surge the timing of your attacks do matter.
Without surge you only get 3 attacks pre 5th level and above extra attacks, and surge at level 5 normally only means you would get with a single weapon 4 attacks, but a light nick weapon adds two more attacks to that( the nick moved attack and the light bonus action attack.) that makes 6 attacks just with the light property, Action Surge, and the 5th level extra attack feature and Dual Wielding feat only changes one of the two weapons that can be used in that entire series.
They changed light property to give nick mastery a place, changed the two-weapon fighting style because they moved two-weapon fighting from the general section into the light property and changed the Dual Wielding Feat to include the light weapon property so nick can be use with it.
It’s all now interconnected, a complete cluster(blank) and clear demonstration of how piss poor editing can cause such drastic problems in changing the two weapons fighting rules and how it now all interacts.
And as said elsewhere and before, you do you.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.