And if a whale had a walking speed of “—“ then it would have “no ground locomotive capacity at all” but it doesn’t. It has a walking speed of “0” which means it has a means of ground locomotion, it just can’t go anywhere.
You’re assuming that “0 walking speed = no walking speed,” which is the mistake. If a creature had a Flying Speed of 0 ft., then absolutely Longstrider would make that 0 a 10. There is a difference between a speed of 0, and no speed at all.
But unfortunately that assertion is a mistake to make, because according to the rules "Creatures that have no form of ground-based locomotion have a walking speed of 0 feet."
Even if you can't say "0 walking speed => no ground based movement" you can say "no ground based movement => 0 walking speed" and unfortunately, we cannot tell what creatures fall into the category of "0 walking speed because they just can't go anywhere" or "0 walking speed because they have no form of ground locomotion."
So then the question is "can every creature (even those without a form of ground locomotion) benefit from a bonus to ground speed?" That is where reasonable minds could differ.
The answer is yes, because that’s what the spell says. If you have a speed, it adds 10 ft to it. Anatomy, ability, etc is moot. All creatures list a speed, specifically called out in the MM rules as a walking speed. Since they have a listed speed, they get the 10 ft., period
Again, reasonable minds could certainly differ on that.
Certainly, but one side is using the RAW explanation (spells do what they say they do) and one is homebrewing additional, unprinted requirements. That’s ok, but you have to recognize it
Again, reasonable minds could differ on that. What does it matter if you have a speed of 10' if you have no ability to move? Or are you saying that the spell does something other than it says? Because then you certainly couldn't say RAW was on your side.
The spell describes a mechanical game effect (a boost to a number printed on a statblock); the in-game description of that effect is certainly up to the DM, but pure RAW in this case is math, applied so long as there is a printed number, with no exception for if that number is 0
The spell describes a mechanical game effect (a boost to a number printed on a statblock); the in-game description of that effect is certainly up to the DM, but pure RAW in this case is math, applied so long as there is a printed number, with no exception for if that number is 0
Again, pure RAW is that the creature may have a speed of 10' with no form of ground locomotion. Reasonable minds may differ on whether such a creature can or cannot move.
The spell describes a mechanical game effect (a boost to a number printed on a statblock); the in-game description of that effect is certainly up to the DM, but pure RAW in this case is math, applied so long as there is a printed number, with no exception for if that number is 0
Again, pure RAW is that the creature may have a speed of 10' with no form of ground locomotion. Reasonable minds may differ on whether such a creature can or cannot move.
"No form of ground locomotion" is not something that has any meaning whatsoever as far as "pure RAW" is concerned. Speed is speed, and this is the Rules & Game Mechanics forum :p
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
If the target is paralyzed, does it allow them to move? What happens if it is cast before the paralysis hits them? Different result?
That’s a different question that would be valid whether the creature had an initial speed of 0, 30, or 200. In other words, it doesn’t really matter what the creatures speed is at the start, paralysis vs longstrider is the same question no matter the starting speed
The spell describes a mechanical game effect (a boost to a number printed on a statblock); the in-game description of that effect is certainly up to the DM, but pure RAW in this case is math, applied so long as there is a printed number, with no exception for if that number is 0
Again, pure RAW is that the creature may have a speed of 10' with no form of ground locomotion. Reasonable minds may differ on whether such a creature can or cannot move.
"No form of ground locomotion" is not something that has any meaning whatsoever as far as "pure RAW" is concerned. Speed is speed, and this is the Rules & Game Mechanics forum :p
Again, throughout this thread I have just been championing that other might disagree. :P
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
If the target is paralyzed, does it allow them to move? What happens if it is cast before the paralysis hits them? Different result?
That’s a different question that would be valid whether the creature had an initial speed of 0, 30, or 200. In other words, it doesn’t really matter what the creatures speed is at the start, paralysis vs longstrider is the same question no matter the starting speed
And yet you do not seem to have answered either situation. The argument being made is that someone who literally has no means of propulsion through any particular medium is effectively paralyzed. If a human in real life is paralyzed, that is their situation. If their legs are paralyzed, they simply do not function. A whale is the same. They have no legs at all, plus their normal means of propulsion, their tail, has nothing to thrust against and their weight makes movement basically impossible.
On land, they are effectively paralyzed.
That’s a load of horse poopy. Not having a speed =/= having the paralyzed condition.
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
If the target is paralyzed, does it allow them to move? What happens if it is cast before the paralysis hits them? Different result?
Absolutely not. Because a creature under the paralyzed condition has the following block of rules attached to them for the duration at the condition:
Paralyzed
A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can't move or speak.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.
So if you cast Longstrider on a paralyzed their speed still increases by 10, but they cannot move.
Exactly. If someone has their movement reduced to 0 for any given reason, if that reason is still there, their movement is still reduced to zero even though their 'speed' is likely non-zero.
The argument is that is the natural situation of a whale on land.
Paralysis (per the condition) is only one way that someone's movement can be reduced to zero. And I did not even reference the 5e condition, but rather was using the term more loosely. This should have been clear from the specific examples I gave. Someone whose legs are paralyzed can still move their arms, perhaps crawl. A Quadriplegic can still speak. If Longstrider was cast on a quadriplegic, would you have them bounce along? Slide?
In the earlier thread the animal in question was a shark. I could imagine ways in which a shark could propel itself. A whale is a very different animal.
That is a misreading of what Sposta's saying. The paralyzed condition does not reduce the sufferer's speed to 0. It states that they cannot move, bypassing speed entirely.
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
If the target is paralyzed, does it allow them to move? What happens if it is cast before the paralysis hits them? Different result?
Absolutely not. Because a creature under the paralyzed condition has the following block of rules attached to them for the duration at the condition:
Paralyzed
A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can't move or speak.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.
So if you cast Longstrider on a paralyzed their speed still increases by 10, but they cannot move.
Exactly. If someone has their movement reduced to 0 for any given reason, if that reason is still there, their movement is still reduced to zero even though their 'speed' is likely non-zero.
The argument is that is the natural situation of a whale on land.
Paralysis (per the condition) is only one way that someone's movement can be reduced to zero. And I did not even reference the 5e condition, but rather was using the term more loosely. This should have been clear from the specific examples I gave. Someone whose legs are paralyzed can still move their arms, perhaps crawl. A Quadriplegic can still speak. If Longstrider was cast on a quadriplegic, would you have them bounce along? Slide?
In the earlier thread the animal in question was a shark. I could imagine ways in which a shark could propel itself. A whale is a very different animal.
That is a misreading of what Sposta's saying. The paralyzed condition does not reduce the sufferer's speed to 0. It states that they cannot move, bypassing speed entirely.
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
If the target is paralyzed, does it allow them to move? What happens if it is cast before the paralysis hits them? Different result?
All conditions either simply say “you can’t move” (which doesn’t reduce movement to 0 but precludes using what you have) or reduces movement to 0 and precludes any bonus to speed. The only condition that does reduce to 0 without the additional rule on speed bonuses is 5 levels of exhaustion, and I would rule that longstrider would make that speed 10
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
So in your opinion, it is RAW that a limbless person can still walk? And would walk a minimum 10' / round (run/dash 20') with Longstrider? How about a monk or barbarian or any other class/subclass who also gets pluses to speed?
There is no established RAW means of handling a character who belongs to a species that naturally has legs but does not have legs. However a DM wants to handle that is totally fine and up to them, but that discussion belongs in the Homebrew forum, not here.
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
RAW it is the cause that (at least some) creatures are listed as having 0' walking speed. Saying that it has no mechanical effect is a ruling, just like saying you "can't move" means you can't use your speed is a ruling. "Can't move" is a mechanic, but "no form of ground-based locomotion" isn't?
But anyway, I'm certain anyone who doesn't trust to your authority on the subject might reasonably come to a different decision about what text from the rulebooks to consider "RAW" or "mechanics."
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
If the target is paralyzed, does it allow them to move? What happens if it is cast before the paralysis hits them? Different result?
All conditions either simply say “you can’t move” (which doesn’t reduce movement to 0 but precludes using what you have) or reduces movement to 0 and precludes any bonus to speed. The only condition that does reduce to 0 without the additional rule on speed bonuses is 5 levels of exhaustion, and I would rule that longstrider would make that speed 10
And that is my argument, that a whale effectively has that condition while on land, for listed reasons.
But it does not actually have any such condition whatsoever. That is all just you projecting stuff where there is now RAW to back up your claim.
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
So in your opinion, it is RAW that a limbless person can still walk? And would walk a minimum 10' / round (run/dash 20') with Longstrider? How about a monk or barbarian or any other class/subclass who also gets pluses to speed?
There is no established RAW means of handling a character who belongs to a species that naturally has legs but does not have legs. However a DM wants to handle that is totally fine and up to them, but that discussion belongs in the Homebrew forum, not here.
And yet the Sword of Sharpness exists. More to the OP, though, a whale right from birth has no limbs suitable to land movement. If you feel that there is no established means in RAW of handling a character who normally does have such appendages and loses them, then it follows that there is no established means in RAW of handling a creature that never had such appendages in the first place.
Which means it is NOT RAW that the whale gets 10' movement from Longstrider. It might be the best answer for RoF reasons, but it would be just as much homebrew.
Why do you assume a creature needs limbs to have a walking speed? Snakes exist, as do things that wriggle, glide, and even roll over the ground. Plus, longstrider is a magic spell...why do you assume that a limbless creature can’t move when magic is involved? They might not move well, but they aren’t necessarily immobile, even without magic. And 10ft is not fast, certainly compared to normal speeds
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
So in your opinion, it is RAW that a limbless person can still walk? And would walk a minimum 10' / round (run/dash 20') with Longstrider? How about a monk or barbarian or any other class/subclass who also gets pluses to speed?
There is no established RAW means of handling a character who belongs to a species that naturally has legs but does not have legs. However a DM wants to handle that is totally fine and up to them, but that discussion belongs in the Homebrew forum, not here.
And yet the Sword of Sharpness exists. More to the OP, though, a whale right from birth has no limbs suitable to land movement. If you feel that there is no established means in RAW of handling a character who normally does have such appendages and loses them, then it follows that there is no established means in RAW of handling a creature that never had such appendages in the first place.
Which means it is NOT RAW that the whale gets 10' movement from Longstrider. It might be the best answer for RoF reasons, but it would be just as much homebrew.
People don’t actually have any appendages specifically suited to swimming either, but we manage to anyway. And if you cast Longstrider on a person they would swim faster too.
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
So in your opinion, it is RAW that a limbless person can still walk? And would walk a minimum 10' / round (run/dash 20') with Longstrider? How about a monk or barbarian or any other class/subclass who also gets pluses to speed?
There is no established RAW means of handling a character who belongs to a species that naturally has legs but does not have legs. However a DM wants to handle that is totally fine and up to them, but that discussion belongs in the Homebrew forum, not here.
And yet the Sword of Sharpness exists. More to the OP, though, a whale right from birth has no limbs suitable to land movement. If you feel that there is no established means in RAW of handling a character who normally does have such appendages and loses them, then it follows that there is no established means in RAW of handling a creature that never had such appendages in the first place.
Which means it is NOT RAW that the whale gets 10' movement from Longstrider. It might be the best answer for RoF reasons, but it would be just as much homebrew.
People don’t actually have any appendages specifically suited to swimming either, but we manage to anyway. And if you cast Longstrider on a person they would swim faster too.
This is very much not true. People may not have bodies specifically specialized for swimming but they most certainly have no problems swimming, providing they have limbs. A quadriplegic, on the other hand, has no way to even so much as insure they keep their head up in the water.
I didn’t say we couldn’t swim. I in fact clearly stated that we do manage to swim. It helps if you pay attention to the whole statement and don’t drift off half way through the first sentence....
While yes we can swim, there are hordes of scientists across many fields of study who can explain to you that human arms and legs are comparatively crappy as a means of aquatic locomotion. Fins, tails, heck even a little interdigital webbing would be an improvement over what we have to work with in terms of how “specifically suited to swimming” our appendages are. Compared to a whale, we practically are paralyzed in the water we’re so slow.
Making those kind of remarks against people with disabilities is rude and hurtful.
But regarding Longstrider, every mode of movement is increased. Having a move of 0 doesn't mean you can't get a bonus for it. Like flying, most creatures don't even have it listed do they wouldn't get a bonus.
Maybe, but that’s when I default to math: 0+10=10.
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The spell describes a mechanical game effect (a boost to a number printed on a statblock); the in-game description of that effect is certainly up to the DM, but pure RAW in this case is math, applied so long as there is a printed number, with no exception for if that number is 0
Again, pure RAW is that the creature may have a speed of 10' with no form of ground locomotion. Reasonable minds may differ on whether such a creature can or cannot move.
"No form of ground locomotion" is not something that has any meaning whatsoever as far as "pure RAW" is concerned. Speed is speed, and this is the Rules & Game Mechanics forum :p
That’s a different question that would be valid whether the creature had an initial speed of 0, 30, or 200. In other words, it doesn’t really matter what the creatures speed is at the start, paralysis vs longstrider is the same question no matter the starting speed
Again, throughout this thread I have just been championing that other might disagree. :P
That’s a load of horse poopy. Not having a speed =/= having the paralyzed condition.
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Absolutely not. Because a creature under the paralyzed condition has the following block of rules attached to them for the duration at the condition:
So if you cast Longstrider on a paralyzed their speed still increases by 10, but they cannot move.
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That is a misreading of what Sposta's saying. The paralyzed condition does not reduce the sufferer's speed to 0. It states that they cannot move, bypassing speed entirely.
This^^^
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All conditions either simply say “you can’t move” (which doesn’t reduce movement to 0 but precludes using what you have) or reduces movement to 0 and precludes any bonus to speed. The only condition that does reduce to 0 without the additional rule on speed bonuses is 5 levels of exhaustion, and I would rule that longstrider would make that speed 10
So, playing devils advocate, not being able to move (regardless of your speed) can prevent you from being able utilize your speed?
Yes, but this is a RAW mechanic and effect (a condition). Your reason “no ground based locomotion” is not a RAW mechanic or effect. Your reason is a possible DM ruling, but it’s not RAW
There is no established RAW means of handling a character who belongs to a species that naturally has legs but does not have legs. However a DM wants to handle that is totally fine and up to them, but that discussion belongs in the Homebrew forum, not here.
RAW it is the cause that (at least some) creatures are listed as having 0' walking speed. Saying that it has no mechanical effect is a ruling, just like saying you "can't move" means you can't use your speed is a ruling. "Can't move" is a mechanic, but "no form of ground-based locomotion" isn't?
But anyway, I'm certain anyone who doesn't trust to your authority on the subject might reasonably come to a different decision about what text from the rulebooks to consider "RAW" or "mechanics."
But it does not actually have any such condition whatsoever. That is all just you projecting stuff where there is now RAW to back up your claim.
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Why do you assume a creature needs limbs to have a walking speed? Snakes exist, as do things that wriggle, glide, and even roll over the ground. Plus, longstrider is a magic spell...why do you assume that a limbless creature can’t move when magic is involved? They might not move well, but they aren’t necessarily immobile, even without magic. And 10ft is not fast, certainly compared to normal speeds
People don’t actually have any appendages specifically suited to swimming either, but we manage to anyway. And if you cast Longstrider on a person they would swim faster too.
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I didn’t say we couldn’t swim. I in fact clearly stated that we do manage to swim. It helps if you pay attention to the whole statement and don’t drift off half way through the first sentence....
While yes we can swim, there are hordes of scientists across many fields of study who can explain to you that human arms and legs are comparatively crappy as a means of aquatic locomotion. Fins, tails, heck even a little interdigital webbing would be an improvement over what we have to work with in terms of how “specifically suited to swimming” our appendages are. Compared to a whale, we practically are paralyzed in the water we’re so slow.
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Making those kind of remarks against people with disabilities is rude and hurtful.
But regarding Longstrider, every mode of movement is increased. Having a move of 0 doesn't mean you can't get a bonus for it. Like flying, most creatures don't even have it listed do they wouldn't get a bonus.
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