When reading the rules for Spider Climb it states"while leaving its hands free."
I have noticed two different readings of this! Most grognards that I know read it the same way that I do because they based it on old school D&D, while many new DMs read it another way.
So the question then is does "while leaving its hands free" mean:
a. while leaving its hands free == The spell works while (during the time) its (the targets) hand are free (empty). So. the hands must be free in order to perform spider climb, or
b. while leaving its hands free == While [the spell effect is working] its (the targets) hands are free (able to do something else). The hands are free to perform any action while spider climbing.
I grew up with D&D post Chainmail and OD&D, but with AD&D 1st edtion. Spider climbing was always done in the method similar to a spiderman. A description of this is located here https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spider_climb orhttps://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spider_climb_(drow). If you have the original books you can read the original text. This is similar through D&D 3.5 still requiring you to have nothing in your hands. In 1st edition, you would literally have to take your boots and gloves off to perform the spell and walk as if you were a spider. All reading material prior to 5th that talks about its usage was based on this version, as well as all the previous official content. This method allows the PC to use this as a way to move between locations only.
Now, I hear this is more of a David Bowie in Labyrinth sort of thing. This method allows a PC to kite a melee opponent.
Has this ever been decided? Is it DMs preference? What is your take on this and why?
I don't see how realistically you arrive at (a). (b) appears to be RAI. To read it as a (linguistic) condition, you need to interpret it as "while (it is) leaving its hands free" which is more of a stretch, or it should have been edited to read more naturally and unambiguously as "but only while its hands are free". The more natural reading is b, expressing a result rather than a condition.
this spell is one of a number of features of the game that has changed across different editions.
The current 5th edition spider climb spell does indeed allow the recipient to effectively walk/run up walls and ceilings as if they were normal ground, leaving their hands free to use weapons etc.
Until the spell ends, == prepositional phrase to indicate the duration
one willing creature you touch == subject
gains == verb
the ability to move up, down, and across vertical surfaces and upside down along ceilings, == prepositional phrase specifying what the subject gained.
while leaving its hands free. == Dependent clause
while == conjunction
verb == leaving
its == adjective meaning "of or relating to it or itself", which would be the subject in the independent clause
hands == noun isolating what part was left free
free == adjective defining what was done upon the hands
Now the Merriam-Webster dictionary's first synonym for while is "at or during the time that" or "as long as ."
So, this would appear to read "as long as leaving [the targets] hands free." Leading to choice a. The conditional clause. Which would go along with all previous editions!
You stated more natural reading, but more natural for whom? Dependent on how your thesaurus reads?
I will agree it would appear to be ambiguous.
Now I could read it using oxford dictionary while meaning "During which, " if it were a relative adverb. I do not believe that relative adverbs normally follow a comma. The problem is that this usage follows a comma therefore indicating the conjunction form of the word.
"Until the spell ends, == prepositional phrase to indicate the duration"
More properly, this is a straightforward conditional clause. The action of being able to walk on walls, etc. depends on the condition of the spell being active. Nothing contentious there. You contend with (a) that there are two conditional clauses, one on each end, the secondary condition being as discussed above, having hands free. Whilst "allowed" in the sense that English is pretty trash anyway (see all the spelling weirdness), we consider the context that this is an edited document that would have gone through a number of grammar checks, and that the more natural manner to assemble concurrent conditions would be to put two conditional clauses together so that they are understood as such, ie. "Until the spell ends and while the targets hands are free". As you note, the meaning of while as used for concurrency can denote temporal concurrency (at the same time) or conditional concurrency (so long as). As it is, everyone else on this thread considers the clause under discussion to be a temporal phrase, with "while" indicating temporal concurrent action rather than conditional concurrent action.
What I'm saying is, it's not about the thesaurus, which you note well, but about phrase structure and ordering as it relates to conveying meaning.
Not to say you are wrong, cause I think of it the same way. But do you have any official source where it says you basically walk on walls and ceilings as if they was normal ground? Had a bit of argument with my DM about it today and now I am trying to find any official source to support my claim. If the DM decide otherwise after that, that's fine. But I like to give it a try still.
“While leaving its hands free” means to me your hands are free. If it meant that it could only move across those surfaces if the hands were free to do so I think it would say “while it’s hands are free” (without the “leaving”) or “as long as it’s hands are free”
so if you want to stand on the ceiling shooting arrows or swinging swords Matrix reloaded style go ahead.
unless I’m serious misreading the question at hand.
I believe the way it is written the “while leaving it’s hands free” statement is an exception to the “normal” assumptions of climbing; that to climb vertically or upside down your hands would be occupied holding onto the surface. The other reading honestly ends up in the same place, because if your hands “must” be free for the spell to work, then they couldn’t be grasping anything (including the surface being traversed) as then they wouldn’t be free
The intent is clearly B. However, the language is ambiguous and gives all the leverage necessary to punt the argument into the field of DM interpretation, which then varies from DM to DM. In the end, the difference becomes the usage of the spell. Is the spell meant to be used for it's utility, allowing a creature to reach areas that it otherwise could not in a stealthy manner but largely preventing any other action beyond observing? Or is it meant as a combat movement enhancer so that the affected individual can dance up and down a wall to attack people?
Again, the official intent behind it is clearly B. So then the latter -- combat movement enhancer -- is the primary usage.
The intent is clearly B. However, the language is ambiguous and gives all the leverage necessary to punt the argument into the field of DM interpretation, which then varies from DM to DM. In the end, the difference becomes the usage of the spell. Is the spell meant to be used for it's utility, allowing a creature to reach areas that it otherwise could not in a stealthy manner but largely preventing any other action beyond observing? Or is it meant as a combat movement enhancer so that the affected individual can dance up and down a wall to attack people?
Again, the official intent behind it is clearly B. So then the latter -- combat movement enhancer -- is the primary usage.
If the intent is clear, then the language is not an issue....WotC is usually pretty direct and explicit with spell requirements (“your hands must be free for the duration or the spell ends” would be a typical way they would word this if it were a requirement). In this case they are describing part of the spells effect
This is a second level concentration spell, so it has to be fairly powerful, on par with levitate for example. I believe the reason it was made that way was also to make the spell more simple to use and avoid having to make decisions and generate complications about removing shoes, freeing hands, etc.
And for me, the wording is absolutely not ambiguous especially as pointed out by iconarising, to make it clear that this is an exception on the climbing rule.
That being said, this is no longer spider climbing, visually, I think they should have use another name as this one is just confusing...
When reading the rules for Spider Climb it states"while leaving its hands free."
I have noticed two different readings of this! Most grognards that I know read it the same way that I do because they based it on old school D&D, while many new DMs read it another way.
So the question then is does "while leaving its hands free" mean:
a. while leaving its hands free == The spell works while (during the time) its (the targets) hand are free (empty). So. the hands must be free in order to perform spider climb, or
b. while leaving its hands free == While [the spell effect is working] its (the targets) hands are free (able to do something else). The hands are free to perform any action while spider climbing.
I grew up with D&D post Chainmail and OD&D, but with AD&D 1st edtion. Spider climbing was always done in the method similar to a spiderman. A description of this is located here https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spider_climb or https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spider_climb_(drow). If you have the original books you can read the original text. This is similar through D&D 3.5 still requiring you to have nothing in your hands. In 1st edition, you would literally have to take your boots and gloves off to perform the spell and walk as if you were a spider. All reading material prior to 5th that talks about its usage was based on this version, as well as all the previous official content. This method allows the PC to use this as a way to move between locations only.
Now, I hear this is more of a David Bowie in Labyrinth sort of thing. This method allows a PC to kite a melee opponent.
Has this ever been decided? Is it DMs preference? What is your take on this and why?
I don't see how realistically you arrive at (a). (b) appears to be RAI. To read it as a (linguistic) condition, you need to interpret it as "while (it is) leaving its hands free" which is more of a stretch, or it should have been edited to read more naturally and unambiguously as "but only while its hands are free". The more natural reading is b, expressing a result rather than a condition.
Hiya emperorjd,
this spell is one of a number of features of the game that has changed across different editions.
The current 5th edition spider climb spell does indeed allow the recipient to effectively walk/run up walls and ceilings as if they were normal ground, leaving their hands free to use weapons etc.
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As an old grognard, I appreciate that it worked differently in previous editions, but the wording for 5e is pretty clear. It's 'B'.
Until the spell ends, == prepositional phrase to indicate the duration
one willing creature you touch == subject
gains == verb
the ability to move up, down, and across vertical surfaces and upside down along ceilings, == prepositional phrase specifying what the subject gained.
while leaving its hands free. == Dependent clause
while == conjunction
verb == leaving
its == adjective meaning "of or relating to it or itself", which would be the subject in the independent clause
hands == noun isolating what part was left free
free == adjective defining what was done upon the hands
Now the Merriam-Webster dictionary's first synonym for while is "at or during the time that" or "as long as ."
So, this would appear to read "as long as leaving [the targets] hands free." Leading to choice a. The conditional clause. Which would go along with all previous editions!
You stated more natural reading, but more natural for whom? Dependent on how your thesaurus reads?
I will agree it would appear to be ambiguous.
Now I could read it using oxford dictionary while meaning "During which, " if it were a relative adverb. I do not believe that relative adverbs normally follow a comma. The problem is that this usage follows a comma therefore indicating the conjunction form of the word.
Just some food for thought!
You correctly note:
"Until the spell ends, == prepositional phrase to indicate the duration"
More properly, this is a straightforward conditional clause. The action of being able to walk on walls, etc. depends on the condition of the spell being active. Nothing contentious there. You contend with (a) that there are two conditional clauses, one on each end, the secondary condition being as discussed above, having hands free. Whilst "allowed" in the sense that English is pretty trash anyway (see all the spelling weirdness), we consider the context that this is an edited document that would have gone through a number of grammar checks, and that the more natural manner to assemble concurrent conditions would be to put two conditional clauses together so that they are understood as such, ie. "Until the spell ends and while the targets hands are free". As you note, the meaning of while as used for concurrency can denote temporal concurrency (at the same time) or conditional concurrency (so long as). As it is, everyone else on this thread considers the clause under discussion to be a temporal phrase, with "while" indicating temporal concurrent action rather than conditional concurrent action.
What I'm saying is, it's not about the thesaurus, which you note well, but about phrase structure and ordering as it relates to conveying meaning.
Not to say you are wrong, cause I think of it the same way. But do you have any official source where it says you basically walk on walls and ceilings as if they was normal ground? Had a bit of argument with my DM about it today and now I am trying to find any official source to support my claim. If the DM decide otherwise after that, that's fine. But I like to give it a try still.
“While leaving its hands free” means to me your hands are free. If it meant that it could only move across those surfaces if the hands were free to do so I think it would say “while it’s hands are free” (without the “leaving”) or “as long as it’s hands are free”
so if you want to stand on the ceiling shooting arrows or swinging swords Matrix reloaded style go ahead.
unless I’m serious misreading the question at hand.
I believe the way it is written the “while leaving it’s hands free” statement is an exception to the “normal” assumptions of climbing; that to climb vertically or upside down your hands would be occupied holding onto the surface. The other reading honestly ends up in the same place, because if your hands “must” be free for the spell to work, then they couldn’t be grasping anything (including the surface being traversed) as then they wouldn’t be free
The intent is clearly B. However, the language is ambiguous and gives all the leverage necessary to punt the argument into the field of DM interpretation, which then varies from DM to DM. In the end, the difference becomes the usage of the spell. Is the spell meant to be used for it's utility, allowing a creature to reach areas that it otherwise could not in a stealthy manner but largely preventing any other action beyond observing? Or is it meant as a combat movement enhancer so that the affected individual can dance up and down a wall to attack people?
Again, the official intent behind it is clearly B. So then the latter -- combat movement enhancer -- is the primary usage.
If the intent is clear, then the language is not an issue....WotC is usually pretty direct and explicit with spell requirements (“your hands must be free for the duration or the spell ends” would be a typical way they would word this if it were a requirement). In this case they are describing part of the spells effect
“While leaving your hands free” means “you don’t need your hands for this.”
If they intended for you to use your hands to do this, it would instead say something like: “you must have your hands free to use this ability.”
Have you ever seen a picture if Spider-Man standing upside down on a ceiling? That’s what this spell is trying to emulate.
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I think Walking on Walls like Spiderman might have caused some issues.
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