What are the rules for putting on manacles in combat? The PHB doesn't really specify if they need to be grappled or restrained or what, but what do your players have to do to an opponent before they can put manacles on? I was thinking that they would have contesting ability checks or something, maybe like grappling but with manacles? What are your thoughts/How have you interpreted it at your table?
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"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
There are no rules. It's up to the DM. In my own games I require that the target be grappled and restrained by another creature first if the target isn't willing or incapacitated.
I agree with IC, they need to be incapacitated or restrained and you need your hands free (except the manacles). The easiest way to achieve this is stunning blow from a monk.
I agree with IC, they need to be incapacitated or restrained and you need your hands free (except the manacles). The easiest way to achieve this is stunning blow from a monk.
I wouldn't let you do it if they were just incapacitated or stunned, as that still leaves them able to oppose grapples.
As of the november 2018 errata, an incapacitated creature automatically fails the contest to avoid being grappled or shoved. Stunned creatures were never intended to be able to physically oppose you; that's why they automatically fail Strength saves.
Using skill contests for grappling and shoving was a mistake in my opinion.
I agree with InquisitiveCoder , I'm probably going to require the monster being restrained, and maybe also grappled.
Restrained it nearly impossible for PCs to do. Only a few spell effects do this and most of them are AoEs (like Web). Stunned or Incapacitated are actual things PCs can accomplish.
It's way easier for PCs to restrain a creature than stun them. Your options for stunning a creature pretty much boil down to Stunning Strike, Contagion and Power Word Stun; the latter two have pretty obvious limitations, so in practice only monks can do it.
Anyone with a net or the Grappler feat can try to restrain a creature. Ensnaring Strike is a single-target 1st level spell for rangers. Druids also get Entangle at 1st level. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp is a 2nd-level option for wizards and sorcerers if you can't use Web for whatever reason.
In my opinion, a reasonable DM should also let two or more PCs that have both hands free team up to restrain a creature of the same size if they both successfully grapple it. It's not a super far-fetched thing.
In my opinion, a reasonable DM should also let two or more PCs that have both hands free team up to restrain a creature of the same size if they both successfully grapple it. It's not a super far-fetched thing.
This happened in our campaign. Drow Assassin was attacking our protect-the-NPC. Our Aaracokra Rogue and Dragonborn Warlock both Grappled the Drow, applying Restrained. They then coordinated their actions to drag the Drow out of the Darkness it had dropped so we could continue beating on it.
I agree with InquisitiveCoder , I'm probably going to require the monster being restrained, and maybe also grappled.
Restrained it nearly impossible for PCs to do. Only a few spell effects do this and most of them are AoEs (like Web). Stunned or Incapacitated are actual things PCs can accomplish.
I was thinking with the Grappler feat, because one of my party members has it,. As for stunned or incapitated, if a creature is incapitated, than it's out of the fight, and that kind of defeats the purpose of manacles in combat. Stunning, as InquisitiveCoder points out, is even harder than restraining.
I'm probably going to require a grapple or restraining, and then another contest to get the manacles on.
On a related note, what condition/debuff does a manacle impose? The entry in the Player's Handbook says
These metal restraints can bind a Small or Medium creature.
Does 'bind' mean restrain? Does it impose disadvantage on attacks? Maybe it means that they can't wield two-handed weapons. What are your thoughts/How have you interpreted it at your table?
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"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
As for stunned or incapitated, if a creature is incapitated, than it's out of the fight, and that kind of defeats the purpose of manacles in combat.
Not exactly. Stunning is pretty much always short-lived; you can't bet on it lasting longer than 1 or 2 rounds. So you're turning a very short-lived setback into a much more permanent one.
There's also temporary ways to incapacitate creatures, like Sleep or Hypnotic Pattern
I'm probably going to require a grapple or restraining, and then another contest to get the manacles on.
Grappling is too easy mechanically and too weak narratively in my opinion. It's the equivalent of grabbing someone's arm. If you're able to slap manacles on a violent person that pretty much implies you have the ability to restrain them. If you're willing to let players skip from grappling straight to slapping on manacles with a contest, you might as well use that as your rule for restraining creatures.
On a related note, what condition/debuff does a manacle impose? The entry in the Player's Handbook says
These metal restraints can bind a Small or Medium creature.
Does 'bind' mean restrain? Does it impose disadvantage on attacks? Maybe it means that they can't wield two-handed weapons. What are your thoughts/How have you interpreted it at your table?
It doesn't formally apply a condition, but it's obviously going to restrict the actions they can take. If you bind someone's hands in front of them, they can still do a lot of things, but if you bind them behind their back, there's not much they can do with their hands.
As for stunned or incapitated, if a creature is incapitated, than it's out of the fight, and that kind of defeats the purpose of manacles in combat.
Not exactly. Stunning is pretty much always short-lived; you can't bet on it lasting longer than 1 or 2 rounds. So you're turning a very short-lived setback into a much more permanent one.
There's also temporary ways to incapacitate creatures, like Sleep or Hypnotic Pattern
I'm probably going to require a grapple or restraining, and then another contest to get the manacles on.
Grappling is too easy mechanically and too weak narratively in my opinion. It's the equivalent of grabbing someone's arm. If you're able to slap manacles on a violent person that pretty much implies you have the ability to restrain them. If you're willing to let players skip from grappling straight to slapping on manacles with a contest, you might as well use that as your rule for restraining creatures.
I've always thought of grappling as more of a wrestling match, partly because of the picture for grappling in the PHB, with a monster grabbing you and shaking you around:In that picture, I think that it would be pretty easy to get manacles onto him. I see your point though. I think my rules for manacles will end up looking like this:
The monster has to be restrained, stunned, or incapitated for manacles to be put on. If the monster is grappled, a contest can be made with the manacle user making a Strength (Athletics) check with disadvantage. The monster can either make a Strength (Athletics) check or a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (monster's choice) to avoid being restrained. If the manacles are put on, the monster's weapon attacks are made with disadvantage, and creatures have advantage on attacks against it. If the monster is wielding a shield, it is unable to benefit from the +2 Armor Class that a shield would normally provide.
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"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
See I have been thinking about purchasing or making a load of sets of Manacles (they are real cheap and will disable most foes) for my grappler, but only if I could apply them in combat.
I was picturing grabbling someone and making them prone and then another step to put Manacles on - that is a heavy investment, especially if the putting on of manacles is an action (would require Extra Attack and Action Surge)
I think the problem with requiring the restrained condition is actually how much easier and weirder that is in practice than grappling. A level 2 Fighter can just throw a Net at someone (roll to hit is much easier than grappling and requires no speciality build), then put the Manacles on them (which makes very little sense, as they would still be struggling around, not to mention the obvious netted barrier).
Which to be fair is how Dimensional Shackles work... which is kind of ridiculous, as a lv3 Rogue (Thief with the Fast Hands ability) or as I said Action Surge from Fighter allow restraint without any sort of roll off with the above tactic... just 5g and boom instant taking of a large or less sized enemy out of a fight.
I would have made a new thread, but as I understand it Forum policy is that it is better to necro a topic of the same subject matter than make a new one (memory).
Please keep in mind that the summoning of Zombies via Thread necromancy is not something we want to occur here. Going to lock this thread to ensure we dont get an undead roaming.
What are the rules for putting on manacles in combat? The PHB doesn't really specify if they need to be grappled or restrained or what, but what do your players have to do to an opponent before they can put manacles on? I was thinking that they would have contesting ability checks or something, maybe like grappling but with manacles? What are your thoughts/How have you interpreted it at your table?
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
There are no rules. It's up to the DM. In my own games I require that the target be grappled and restrained by another creature first if the target isn't willing or incapacitated.
I agree with IC, they need to be incapacitated or restrained and you need your hands free (except the manacles). The easiest way to achieve this is stunning blow from a monk.
I wouldn't let you do it if they were just incapacitated or stunned, as that still leaves them able to oppose grapples.
Using skill contests for grappling and shoving was a mistake in my opinion.
I agree with InquisitiveCoder , I'm probably going to require the monster being restrained, and maybe also grappled.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
Restrained it nearly impossible for PCs to do. Only a few spell effects do this and most of them are AoEs (like Web).
Stunned or Incapacitated are actual things PCs can accomplish.
It's way easier for PCs to restrain a creature than stun them. Your options for stunning a creature pretty much boil down to Stunning Strike, Contagion and Power Word Stun; the latter two have pretty obvious limitations, so in practice only monks can do it.
Anyone with a net or the Grappler feat can try to restrain a creature. Ensnaring Strike is a single-target 1st level spell for rangers. Druids also get Entangle at 1st level. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp is a 2nd-level option for wizards and sorcerers if you can't use Web for whatever reason.
In my opinion, a reasonable DM should also let two or more PCs that have both hands free team up to restrain a creature of the same size if they both successfully grapple it. It's not a super far-fetched thing.
This happened in our campaign. Drow Assassin was attacking our protect-the-NPC. Our Aaracokra Rogue and Dragonborn Warlock both Grappled the Drow, applying Restrained. They then coordinated their actions to drag the Drow out of the Darkness it had dropped so we could continue beating on it.
I was thinking with the Grappler feat, because one of my party members has it,. As for stunned or incapitated, if a creature is incapitated, than it's out of the fight, and that kind of defeats the purpose of manacles in combat. Stunning, as InquisitiveCoder points out, is even harder than restraining.
I'm probably going to require a grapple or restraining, and then another contest to get the manacles on.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
On a related note, what condition/debuff does a manacle impose? The entry in the Player's Handbook says
Does 'bind' mean restrain? Does it impose disadvantage on attacks? Maybe it means that they can't wield two-handed weapons. What are your thoughts/How have you interpreted it at your table?
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
Not exactly. Stunning is pretty much always short-lived; you can't bet on it lasting longer than 1 or 2 rounds. So you're turning a very short-lived setback into a much more permanent one.
There's also temporary ways to incapacitate creatures, like Sleep or Hypnotic Pattern
Grappling is too easy mechanically and too weak narratively in my opinion. It's the equivalent of grabbing someone's arm. If you're able to slap manacles on a violent person that pretty much implies you have the ability to restrain them. If you're willing to let players skip from grappling straight to slapping on manacles with a contest, you might as well use that as your rule for restraining creatures.
EDIT:
It doesn't formally apply a condition, but it's obviously going to restrict the actions they can take. If you bind someone's hands in front of them, they can still do a lot of things, but if you bind them behind their back, there's not much they can do with their hands.
I've always thought of grappling as more of a wrestling match, partly because of the picture for grappling in the PHB, with a monster grabbing you and shaking you around:In that picture, I think that it would be pretty easy to get manacles onto him. I see your point though. I think my rules for manacles will end up looking like this:
The monster has to be restrained, stunned, or incapitated for manacles to be put on. If the monster is grappled, a contest can be made with the manacle user making a Strength (Athletics) check with disadvantage. The monster can either make a Strength (Athletics) check or a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (monster's choice) to avoid being restrained. If the manacles are put on, the monster's weapon attacks are made with disadvantage, and creatures have advantage on attacks against it. If the monster is wielding a shield, it is unable to benefit from the +2 Armor Class that a shield would normally provide.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
See I have been thinking about purchasing or making a load of sets of Manacles (they are real cheap and will disable most foes) for my grappler, but only if I could apply them in combat.
I was picturing grabbling someone and making them prone and then another step to put Manacles on - that is a heavy investment, especially if the putting on of manacles is an action (would require Extra Attack and Action Surge)
I think the problem with requiring the restrained condition is actually how much easier and weirder that is in practice than grappling. A level 2 Fighter can just throw a Net at someone (roll to hit is much easier than grappling and requires no speciality build), then put the Manacles on them (which makes very little sense, as they would still be struggling around, not to mention the obvious netted barrier).
Which to be fair is how Dimensional Shackles work... which is kind of ridiculous, as a lv3 Rogue (Thief with the Fast Hands ability) or as I said Action Surge from Fighter allow restraint without any sort of roll off with the above tactic... just 5g and boom instant taking of a large or less sized enemy out of a fight.
I would have made a new thread, but as I understand it Forum policy is that it is better to necro a topic of the same subject matter than make a new one (memory).
Please keep in mind that the summoning of Zombies via Thread necromancy is not something we want to occur here. Going to lock this thread to ensure we dont get an undead roaming.
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