I still contend that height in rules means “in world vertical direction” and not mathematical “base to vertex distance” because the authors describe thing in the game world.
People are begging DDB to have Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master automatically do the conversions for them because math like -5 and +10 is too much math. How many apps exist to help people figure out how much to tip because “20%” is too confusing for them.... 🙄
I still contend that height in rules means “in world vertical direction” and not mathematical “base to vertex distance” because the authors describe thing in the game world.
I agree, and so did the game designers since they imagined most people casting cones along a horizontal plane and “most people” think of “width” and “length” along the horizontal and “height” along the vertical.
The devs want to keep the rules simple, so I highly doubt they intend for you to measure the diagonal then figure out the shape based on a non-whole height. This would also have the downside of the center of the effect having the shortest range from the caster with is very unintuitive. And in a game where the shape's "height" is going to be horizontal 95+% of the time and the whole thing is written in lay man's terms and not math terms, it makes the most sense that "length" is referring to the perpendicular of the width.
Now with the explanation of why length means height out of the way, to address AoE. For surface targets we can pretty much just use R²÷50 (R=spell range in feet) to get number of 5×5 squares effected. Cubic AoE is a bit more complicated but should add up to R³π÷375 to get number of 5×5×5 cubes in AoE. Or yo make things easier, you can dived R by 5 first so you don't have to dived by 5² and 5³ later ((R/5)²/2 and (R/5)³π/3 respectively. Yeah this is nicer).
I still contend that height in rules means “in world vertical direction” and not mathematical “base to vertex distance” because the authors describe thing in the game world.
Say a person's height is 6 feet tall. Then you push them over so they're sideways. Is their height no longer 6 feet?
I still contend that height in rules means “in world vertical direction” and not mathematical “base to vertex distance” because the authors describe thing in the game world.
Say a person's height is 6 feet tall. Then you push them over so they're sideways. Is their height no longer 6 feet?
In D&D? Correct, their “length” is now 6’. That’s how simple it is. That’s why we say you are over complicating things.
The length of a cone is obviously not always the side length, because the authors of the Player’s Handbook are using the word to mean the distance from the point of origin to the width of the area of effect, which is a two-dimensional projection of a 3D cone onto the standard combat plane.
That's quite a claim to make. Do you have something from the authors that confirms that 'When we said 'length' we didn't actually mean length, we meant the shortest possible distance from the origin to the width instead'?
Yes. The "Areas of Effect on a Grid" section in Xanathar's Guide to Everything includes this diagram which quite clearly shows a cone AoE as a triangle with a base of 30 feet and a height of 30 feet, not an equilateral triangle.
Yes. The "Areas of Effect on a Grid" section in Xanathar's Guide to Everything includes this diagram which quite clearly shows a cone AoE as a triangle with a base of 30 feet and a height of 30 feet, not an equilateral triangle.
Excellent, thank you very much for providing evidence. This contradicts the PHB description, and if people have been using the XGE version instead to plot their cone shapes then that's totally reasonable.
I don't have XGE myself, but I gather it also changes things like rules for crafting magic items?
The length of a cone is obviously not always the side length, because the authors of the Player’s Handbook are using the word to mean the distance from the point of origin to the width of the area of effect, which is a two-dimensional projection of a 3D cone onto the standard combat plane.
That's quite a claim to make. Do you have something from the authors that confirms that 'When we said 'length' we didn't actually mean length, we meant the shortest possible distance from the origin to the width instead'?
🤦♂️
Rav, is that you again trolling under a different username?
Could you not perhaps try to debate the argument instead of calling me a pedant and a troll?
Listen, sorry about before. There are at least 1 or 2 people who are fully aware of D&D’s plain language rules system, but they love to occasionally pop into these forums and hang an argument on a language technicality such as that and mercilessly troll a thread until the Mods lock it. They come in using different usernames, but their MO is always the same. I legitimately thought you were one of them. My apologies.
It only contradicts the PHB description if you cling to a specific mathematical description of a word rather than a vernacular meaning. XGtE clarifies the PHB; it doesn’t countermand it.
Another point to remember (that I didn’t remember myself until just now), is that on a D&D grid, the diagonal length of a square is defined to be equal to the square’s side length, so actually regardless of which “length” sense you want to take, the distance is the same.
Yes. The "Areas of Effect on a Grid" section in Xanathar's Guide to Everything includes this diagram which quite clearly shows a cone AoE as a triangle with a base of 30 feet and a height of 30 feet, not an equilateral triangle.
Excellent, thank you very much for providing evidence. This contradicts the PHB description, and if people have been using the XGE version instead to plot their cone shapes then that's totally reasonable.
It’s not so much a “contradiction” but more of a “we did a crappy job explaining it in the PHB, so here is what we were trying to say. Our bad. -WotC”
It only contradicts the PHB description if you cling to a specific mathematical description of a word rather than a vernacular meaning. XGtE clarifies the PHB; it doesn’t countermand it.
Another point to remember (that I didn’t remember myself until just now), is that on a D&D grid, the diagonal length of a square is defined to be equal to the square’s side length, so actually regardless of which “length” sense you want to take, the distance is the same.
Correct, D&D is based on a non-Euclidean geometry. A D&D grid “square” is assumed to be 5 feet even when measured diagonally.
It only contradicts the PHB description if you cling to a specific mathematical description of a word rather than a vernacular meaning. XGtE clarifies the PHB; it doesn’t countermand it.
That's fair. I'm a mathematician, so to me the 'length of a cone' is simple, completely unambiguous measurement, just as much as the length of a cube will always refer to its side length rather than, for example, the distance between opposite corners is it's been orientated diagonally.
Listen, sorry about before. There are at least 1 or 2 people who are fully aware of D&D’s plain language rules system, but they love to occasionally pop into these forums and hang an argument on a language technicality such as that and mercilessly troll a thread until the Mods lock it. They come in using different usernames, but their MO is always the same. I legitimately thought you were one of them. My apologies.
I was arguing quite earnestly, and definitely got too worked up and abrasive myself about the problem. Apology both accepted and reciprocated! nowkith.jpg
It only contradicts the PHB description if you cling to a specific mathematical description of a word rather than a vernacular meaning. XGtE clarifies the PHB; it doesn’t countermand it.
Another point to remember (that I didn’t remember myself until just now), is that on a D&D grid, the diagonal length of a square is defined to be equal to the square’s side length, so actually regardless of which “length” sense you want to take, the distance is the same.
Which I hate and never use. Diagonal movement is almost one and half times the distance (specifically it is sqrt 2 times the distance). I prefer the 1-2-1/5-10-5 method. It's closer (still off, but less so).
When a large creature casts the cone - does it emanate from the point at the center of the creature, or from a side?
should be from its middle, but remember that the caster gets to choose if the point of origin for the cone counts as being inside the cone or not, so large spellcasters dont exactly risk scorching themselves that said having it eminate from a corner is reasonable
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
When a large creature casts the cone - does it emanate from the point at the center of the creature, or from a side?
should be from its middle, but remember that the caster gets to choose if the point of origin for the cone counts as being inside the cone or not, so large spellcasters dont exactly risk scorching themselves that said having it eminate from a corner is reasonable
DMG says corner (or intersection of squares).
Areas of Effect
The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren’t.
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
The most important thing is to stay consistent.
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Sposta,
I still contend that height in rules means “in world vertical direction” and not mathematical “base to vertex distance” because the authors describe thing in the game world.
People are begging DDB to have Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master automatically do the conversions for them because math like -5 and +10 is too much math. How many apps exist to help people figure out how much to tip because “20%” is too confusing for them.... 🙄
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I agree, and so did the game designers since they imagined most people casting cones along a horizontal plane and “most people” think of “width” and “length” along the horizontal and “height” along the vertical.
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The devs want to keep the rules simple, so I highly doubt they intend for you to measure the diagonal then figure out the shape based on a non-whole height. This would also have the downside of the center of the effect having the shortest range from the caster with is very unintuitive. And in a game where the shape's "height" is going to be horizontal 95+% of the time and the whole thing is written in lay man's terms and not math terms, it makes the most sense that "length" is referring to the perpendicular of the width.
Now with the explanation of why length means height out of the way, to address AoE. For surface targets we can pretty much just use R²÷50 (R=spell range in feet) to get number of 5×5 squares effected. Cubic AoE is a bit more complicated but should add up to R³π÷375 to get number of 5×5×5 cubes in AoE. Or yo make things easier, you can dived R by 5 first so you don't have to dived by 5² and 5³ later ((R/5)²/2 and (R/5)³π/3 respectively. Yeah this is nicer).
Say a person's height is 6 feet tall. Then you push them over so they're sideways. Is their height no longer 6 feet?
In D&D? Correct, their “length” is now 6’. That’s how simple it is. That’s why we say you are over complicating things.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Yes. The "Areas of Effect on a Grid" section in Xanathar's Guide to Everything includes this diagram which quite clearly shows a cone AoE as a triangle with a base of 30 feet and a height of 30 feet, not an equilateral triangle.
Excellent, thank you very much for providing evidence. This contradicts the PHB description, and if people have been using the XGE version instead to plot their cone shapes then that's totally reasonable.
I don't have XGE myself, but I gather it also changes things like rules for crafting magic items?
Listen, sorry about before. There are at least 1 or 2 people who are fully aware of D&D’s plain language rules system, but they love to occasionally pop into these forums and hang an argument on a language technicality such as that and mercilessly troll a thread until the Mods lock it. They come in using different usernames, but their MO is always the same. I legitimately thought you were one of them. My apologies.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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Epic Boons on DDB
It only contradicts the PHB description if you cling to a specific mathematical description of a word rather than a vernacular meaning. XGtE clarifies the PHB; it doesn’t countermand it.
Another point to remember (that I didn’t remember myself until just now), is that on a D&D grid, the diagonal length of a square is defined to be equal to the square’s side length, so actually regardless of which “length” sense you want to take, the distance is the same.
It’s not so much a “contradiction” but more of a “we did a crappy job explaining it in the PHB, so here is what we were trying to say. Our bad. -WotC”
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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Correct, D&D is based on a non-Euclidean geometry. A D&D grid “square” is assumed to be 5 feet even when measured diagonally.
DDB Buyers' Guide
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Epic Boons on DDB
That's fair. I'm a mathematician, so to me the 'length of a cone' is simple, completely unambiguous measurement, just as much as the length of a cube will always refer to its side length rather than, for example, the distance between opposite corners is it's been orientated diagonally.
I was arguing quite earnestly, and definitely got too worked up and abrasive myself about the problem. Apology both accepted and reciprocated! nowkith.jpg
I can’t see the jpg, but glad to have cleared up any animosity. 🤝
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Which I hate and never use. Diagonal movement is almost one and half times the distance (specifically it is sqrt 2 times the distance). I prefer the 1-2-1/5-10-5 method. It's closer (still off, but less so).
It is a meme.
Thanks. I am unaware of such things, I appreciate it.
PS- I just don’t use a grid and avoid the whole problem.
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When a large creature casts the cone - does it emanate from the point at the center of the creature, or from a side?
I think they get to pick the point of origin as long as it is a corner of a space they occupy.
should be from its middle, but remember that the caster gets to choose if the point of origin for the cone counts as being inside the cone or not, so large spellcasters dont exactly risk scorching themselves
that said having it eminate from a corner is reasonable
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
DMG says corner (or intersection of squares).
The most important thing is to stay consistent.