"oh oh but 'in the hand' just means you can reach in your pocket and touch the wand and cast your spell and that's all the RAW means!"
no, that just means you're being obtuse and refuse to acknowledge that you're wrong that you have to have a free hand to cast a somatic, non-material spell, and that you have to HOLD the wand in the hand to use it.
So, Rav, basically, you have to hold an object in order to use it. Unless your belly can unfold and wrap around a spellcasting focus and point it somewhere and gesture at the same time without using any free actions or anything, you have to have the focus in your hand, as the rules say, in order to gain the benefit of using it.
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Truly, the hiccup of Rav is that he believes a focus can be used anytime and doesn't get in the way of somatic casting even sans material component spells.
That's not a hiccup, that's the rules. You can use a spellcasting focus on any of your spells. (assuming class/type requirements met) The item says you can use it, and it is clearly the intent that you can use it. And NOTHING says you can't. So, you can.
You guys are arguing that the object cannot be used for what it says it can. And provide no evidence for that claim whatsoever.
We're arguing that you can use the object as the Spellcasting section of the PHB explains, and that mechanics are not given in the description of the Arcane Focus. That is merely flavor text, and it points you to the rules. You can "channel" spells through a spellcasting focus as explained in that section of the book.
The text of the object isn't "flavortext" simply because it refutes your interpretation. The item gives you requirements for use, and tells you what it does. You can use it as a spellcasting focus. Oh cool, what does that mean? One may wonder. Well, it also tells you where you can find out what that does.
I agree, putting that in the Material Components rules was a misjudgement on their part or maybe just a weird editing decision that overlooked a more consistent formatting option that they could have taken. But, despite that, the item still does point us to the material Component rules for its use. So when we use it, those rules are applied.
I've reiterated time and again that normally you would only use a rule segment when it is applicable. We all agree on that. However, in this case, the rule segment is being specifically called to from something else, and in doing so, it is also being invoked. Spellcasting. When using the item, the material component section is being specifically brought into applicability. Yall just having a real hard time with this nonstandard referencing.
This specific referencing in the item > the general applicability of rules rule.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You literally just said nothing that adds any weight to your argument. Rules regarding free hands and picking up, stowing, putting away, is not flavor text.
You have to have an Arcane Focus in hand to use it. Not like you can just have a Holy Symbol be worn or on a shield. A Holy Symbol can be used without it being in hand, because as you say, the Holy Symbol's more specific rule says it can. The Arcane Focus does not have anything along those lines. You Must Have An Arcane Focus In Hand To Use It. Nothing says otherwise.
The linking to material components is because THAT IS WHAT AN ARCANE FOCUS IS USED FOR.
Truly, the hiccup of Rav is that he believes a focus can be used anytime and doesn't get in the way of somatic casting even sans material component spells.
That's not a hiccup, that's the rules. You can use a spellcasting focus on any of your spells. (assuming class/type requirements met) The item says you can use it, and it is clearly the intent that you can use it. And NOTHING says you can't. So, you can.
You guys are arguing that the object cannot be used for what it says it can. And provide no evidence for that claim whatsoever.
We're arguing that you can use the object as the Spellcasting section of the PHB explains, and that mechanics are not given in the description of the Arcane Focus. That is merely flavor text, and it points you to the rules. You can "channel" spells through a spellcasting focus as explained in that section of the book.
The text of the object isn't "flavortext" simply because it refutes your interpretation. The item gives you requirements for use, and tells you what it does. You can use it as a spellcasting focus. Oh cool, what does that mean? One may wonder. Well, it also tells you where you can find out what that does.
It is flavor text if there's no mechanical explanation for what it says. It says "channel your arcane spells" which is merely flavor text because there's no mechanical meaning of this. It tells you where you can find out what the spellcasting focus mechanically does, and doesn't explain it in the description because that would be stupid.
I agree, putting that in the Material Components rules was a misjudgement on their part or maybe just a weird editing decision that overlooked a more consistent formatting option that they could have taken. But, despite that, the item still does point us to the material Component rules for its use. So when we use it, those rules are applied.
I never agreed that putting the rules in the Material components section was a misjudgement or bad. It's more practical to put it there than in the item description in the equipment section, but there should've been a place in the Spellcasting section that explained directly what spellcasting focuses did to avoid confusion.
I've reiterated time and again that normally you would only use a rule segment when it is applicable. We all agree on that. However, in this case, the rule segment is being specifically called to from something else, and in doing so, it is also being invoked. Spellcasting. When using the item, the material component section is being specifically brought into applicability. Yall just having a real hard time with this nonstandard referencing.
This specific referencing in the item > the general applicability of rules rule.
You do only use the rule segment when applicable. It is applicable when it comes to material components and spellcasting foci.
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You literally just said nothing that adds any weight to your argument. Rules regarding free hands and picking up, stowing, putting away, is not flavor text.
You have to have an Arcane Focus in hand to use it. Not like you can just have a Holy Symbol be worn or on a shield. A Holy Symbol can be used without it being in hand, because as you say, the Holy Symbol's more specific rule says it can. The Arcane Focus does not have anything along those lines. You Must Have An Arcane Focus In Hand To Use It. Nothing says otherwise.
The linking to material components is because THAT IS WHAT AN ARCANE FOCUS IS USED FOR.
Yes. But also, you still have to hold Holy Symbol if you want the benefit of using the same hand for material and somatic components.
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I think for the Holy Symbol being worn, that takes care of the material component with or without grabbing it, but still need to gesture with a hand to do the spell (which could be grabbing the symbol, but that is not a relevant detail) - but in the case of a Holy Symbol shield, then no free hand is needed if the shield is equipped.
I think for the Holy Symbol being worn, that takes care of the material component with or without grabbing it, but still need to gesture with a hand to do the spell (which could be grabbing the symbol, but that is not a relevant detail) - but in the case of a Holy Symbol shield, then no free hand is needed if the shield is equipped.
If you can show me a quote saying that, I'll believe it, but I think that just because clerics like to wear holy symbols to profess their faith that doesn't mean they don't have to obey spellcasting rules.
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So, Rav, basically, you have to hold an object in order to use it. Unless your belly can unfold and wrap around a spellcasting focus and point it somewhere and gesture at the same time without using any free actions or anything, you have to have the focus in your hand, as the rules say, in order to gain the benefit of using it.
But they don't. They don't say that at all. They say your hand must be free. That's it. Your hand must be free to do the thing, but it doesn't say it must actually do it. You guys see that right? If you can't read that sentence coherently we're going to keep having problems here.
The rules don't care if you actually hold it or not. RAW. They don't care. You must be able to. You must have the item. But actually do the holding? Silent.
must have a hand free
That's it. ^ That's the requirement.
Trying to micromanage the location of the focus is where the rules break down. You have left RAW. The specific flourishes or not of describing the focus use is all fluff. Mechanically, you only need the capability to hold it, but in fact what you describe next is entirely up to you. Fluff-town.
Again... just going by the words on the page. If it had said "Must have a hand free that is holding the material components - or is holding a focus" then yeah, you need to be holding a focus. But those words aren't in the book. Those words are not what is written. What is written, is a requirement for a free hand, and silence on whether it needs to actually hold anything.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Nope, the wand doesn't disappear after being used in the hand or freely go back to being stowed. There in the hand it stays. It is not fluff.
PUKE
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Nothing says you need to even draw it. It can stay stowed the whole time. Your hand only needs to be free to be able to hold it. Per RAW.
Edit: For clarity. That requirement is for the capability to do something, not the doing of something. Like if a requirement was for a high enough strength to be able to lift a boulder... that doesn't say you need to be actually lifting one. The same sentence structure exists here. The requirement is that the hand is free to be able to hold the focus... not that it actually needs to do so.
That's just not true. You're reading that statement incorrectly. It says, paraphrased so you can understand, "(You must have a free hand to access material components OR hold a spellcasting focus,) which can be the same hand used to perform somatic components."
It does not say, "You must have a free hand to a) access material components or b) hold a spellcasting focus, either which can be the same hand that performs material components."
You have to have an open hand to access material components, which can be the same hand that can perform somatic components.
OR
You have to hold a spellcasting focus, which can be the same hand to perform somatic components.
Learn how to read rules, man.
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Holy Symbol: "A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
The way I'm reading this, it would be similar to a component pouch: it can be worn, but you don't have to draw anything from it. "To use the symbol in this way... wear it visibly". If it is something that is worn, you can't well take it off and hold it in hand, such as when worn on robes.
Holy Symbol: "A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
The way I'm reading this, it would be similar to a component pouch: it can be worn, but you don't have to draw anything from it. "To use the symbol in this way... wear it visibly". If it is something that is worn, you can't well take it off and hold it in hand, such as when worn on robes.
IDK on this front. Up to the DM. I don't see any clear RAW, but I'm leaning towards them having to grasp it in order to ignore the material components and perform somatic components in the same hand.
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Nope, you're blind as a bat. "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus..."
This specifically says you must hold a spell casting focus to use it. The use of an arcane focus requires it to be in hand. The spellcasting focus itself is not a material component.
Rules regarding free hands and picking up, stowing, putting away, is not flavor text.
Yeah and none of those get used here.
You have to have an Arcane Focus in hand to use it.
We know that to be false. You need only a free hand.
A Holy Symbol can be used without it being in hand, because as you say, the Holy Symbol's more specific rule says it can.
Nothing in the Holy Symbol says it is any different. I fully admitted to being mistaken about it like 8 pages ago. You can wear it visibly, but wearing it doesn't negate the requirement of having a free hand capable of holding it.
The Arcane Focus does not have anything along those lines.
None of the focus items need any lines saying anything. The rule for requiring only a free hand are found in the Spellcasting rules and apply to all items being used as a spellcasting focus.
You Must Have An Arcane Focus In Hand To Use It. Nothing says otherwise.
Quite literally the opposite of the truth. Your hand must be free and capable of holding a focus - per the spellcasting rules. If it was already holding a focus it wouldn't be free (according to yalls logic, anyway)
You argue:
Holding a focus makes the hand not free.
Your hand must be free to cast spells.
Your hand must be holding a focus.
What?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
"Your hand must be holding a focus." - No. You must hold the focus to use it.
"Your hand must be free to cast spells" - Only if it is a Somatic spell without Material components. Either you're trolling or deliberately misinterpreting.
A focus itself is not a material component. Its use fulfills the material component needs.
If you want to use material components instead of a focus, by all means, but that doesn't change that you have to hold an Arcane Focus to use it.
You are really going to argue that a hand holding a focus does not qualify for "a hand free to hold a focus"?
I think maybe natural language rules systems aren't for you. You have to have a reasonable understanding of how people use natural language to interface with rules like the ones in 5e.
In fact, the rule could easily be interpreted that "free" is used in the construction for component pouch/material components and that the requirement is for "a hand" as in "a hand to hold a focus" or "a (free) hand to manipulate components." Effectively this interpretation is the same as what any reasonable English speaker would come away with from the rule text.
" IDK on this front. Up to the DM. I don't see any clear RAW, but I'm leaning towards them having to grasp it in order to ignore the material components and perform somatic components in the same hand."
Either way, we're both saying when a holy symbol is worn, there needs to be a free hand. Whether or not they touch the symbol hardly matters- especially in the case of the symbol being worn on robes or on full plate armor.
When it comes to shields though, I see it as the shield itself is the holy symbol (assuming it has the holy symbol on it), thus fulfilling the requirements when equipped.
You are really going to argue that a hand holding a focus does not qualify for "a hand free to hold a focus"?
I think maybe natural language rules systems aren't for you. You have to have a reasonable understanding of how people use natural language to interface with rules like the ones in 5e.
That’s it!! They’re applying M:tG think to a D&D rule!!! Of course!
"oh oh but 'in the hand' just means you can reach in your pocket and touch the wand and cast your spell and that's all the RAW means!"
no, that just means you're being obtuse and refuse to acknowledge that you're wrong that you have to have a free hand to cast a somatic, non-material spell, and that you have to HOLD the wand in the hand to use it.
So, Rav, basically, you have to hold an object in order to use it. Unless your belly can unfold and wrap around a spellcasting focus and point it somewhere and gesture at the same time without using any free actions or anything, you have to have the focus in your hand, as the rules say, in order to gain the benefit of using it.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You literally just said nothing that adds any weight to your argument. Rules regarding free hands and picking up, stowing, putting away, is not flavor text.
You have to have an Arcane Focus in hand to use it. Not like you can just have a Holy Symbol be worn or on a shield. A Holy Symbol can be used without it being in hand, because as you say, the Holy Symbol's more specific rule says it can. The Arcane Focus does not have anything along those lines. You Must Have An Arcane Focus In Hand To Use It. Nothing says otherwise.
The linking to material components is because THAT IS WHAT AN ARCANE FOCUS IS USED FOR.
It is flavor text if there's no mechanical explanation for what it says. It says "channel your arcane spells" which is merely flavor text because there's no mechanical meaning of this. It tells you where you can find out what the spellcasting focus mechanically does, and doesn't explain it in the description because that would be stupid.
You do only use the rule segment when applicable. It is applicable when it comes to material components and spellcasting foci.
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Yes. But also, you still have to hold Holy Symbol if you want the benefit of using the same hand for material and somatic components.
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I think for the Holy Symbol being worn, that takes care of the material component with or without grabbing it, but still need to gesture with a hand to do the spell (which could be grabbing the symbol, but that is not a relevant detail) - but in the case of a Holy Symbol shield, then no free hand is needed if the shield is equipped.
If you can show me a quote saying that, I'll believe it, but I think that just because clerics like to wear holy symbols to profess their faith that doesn't mean they don't have to obey spellcasting rules.
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But they don't. They don't say that at all. They say your hand must be free. That's it. Your hand must be free to do the thing, but it doesn't say it must actually do it. You guys see that right? If you can't read that sentence coherently we're going to keep having problems here.
The rules don't care if you actually hold it or not. RAW. They don't care. You must be able to. You must have the item. But actually do the holding? Silent.
That's it. ^ That's the requirement.
Trying to micromanage the location of the focus is where the rules break down. You have left RAW. The specific flourishes or not of describing the focus use is all fluff. Mechanically, you only need the capability to hold it, but in fact what you describe next is entirely up to you. Fluff-town.
Again... just going by the words on the page. If it had said "Must have a hand free that is holding the material components - or is holding a focus" then yeah, you need to be holding a focus. But those words aren't in the book. Those words are not what is written. What is written, is a requirement for a free hand, and silence on whether it needs to actually hold anything.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You clearly ignored this post before, so I'll post it again:
That's just not true. You're reading that statement incorrectly. It says, paraphrased so you can understand, "(You must have a free hand to access material components OR hold a spellcasting focus,) which can be the same hand used to perform somatic components."
It does not say, "You must have a free hand to a) access material components or b) hold a spellcasting focus, either which can be the same hand that performs material components."
You have to have an open hand to access material components, which can be the same hand that can perform somatic components.
OR
You have to hold a spellcasting focus, which can be the same hand to perform somatic components.
Learn how to read rules, man.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Holy Symbol: "A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
The way I'm reading this, it would be similar to a component pouch: it can be worn, but you don't have to draw anything from it. "To use the symbol in this way... wear it visibly". If it is something that is worn, you can't well take it off and hold it in hand, such as when worn on robes.
IDK on this front. Up to the DM. I don't see any clear RAW, but I'm leaning towards them having to grasp it in order to ignore the material components and perform somatic components in the same hand.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
" But they don't. They don't say that at all."
Nope, you're blind as a bat. "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus..."
This specifically says you must hold a spell casting focus to use it. The use of an arcane focus requires it to be in hand. The spellcasting focus itself is not a material component.
Yeah and none of those get used here.
We know that to be false. You need only a free hand.
Nothing in the Holy Symbol says it is any different. I fully admitted to being mistaken about it like 8 pages ago. You can wear it visibly, but wearing it doesn't negate the requirement of having a free hand capable of holding it.
None of the focus items need any lines saying anything. The rule for requiring only a free hand are found in the Spellcasting rules and apply to all items being used as a spellcasting focus.
Quite literally the opposite of the truth. Your hand must be free and capable of holding a focus - per the spellcasting rules. If it was already holding a focus it wouldn't be free (according to yalls logic, anyway)
You argue:
What?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Hey, Rav, reply to my post above that was quoting you, the most recent one. Don't ignore it, because it proves you wrong.
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"Your hand must be holding a focus." - No. You must hold the focus to use it.
"Your hand must be free to cast spells" - Only if it is a Somatic spell without Material components. Either you're trolling or deliberately misinterpreting.
A focus itself is not a material component. Its use fulfills the material component needs.
If you want to use material components instead of a focus, by all means, but that doesn't change that you have to hold an Arcane Focus to use it.
You are really going to argue that a hand holding a focus does not qualify for "a hand free to hold a focus"?
I think maybe natural language rules systems aren't for you. You have to have a reasonable understanding of how people use natural language to interface with rules like the ones in 5e.
In fact, the rule could easily be interpreted that "free" is used in the construction for component pouch/material components and that the requirement is for "a hand" as in "a hand to hold a focus" or "a (free) hand to manipulate components." Effectively this interpretation is the same as what any reasonable English speaker would come away with from the rule text.
" IDK on this front. Up to the DM. I don't see any clear RAW, but I'm leaning towards them having to grasp it in order to ignore the material components and perform somatic components in the same hand."
Either way, we're both saying when a holy symbol is worn, there needs to be a free hand. Whether or not they touch the symbol hardly matters- especially in the case of the symbol being worn on robes or on full plate armor.
When it comes to shields though, I see it as the shield itself is the holy symbol (assuming it has the holy symbol on it), thus fulfilling the requirements when equipped.
That’s it!! They’re applying M:tG think to a D&D rule!!! Of course!
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