So lets say you are a Eldritch Knight Fighter, 18 lvl with the Improved War Magic Class Feature (Starting at 18th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.)
You cast Vampiric Touch, bonus action attack. Next turn, you maintain concentration to do the melee spell attack, but does this constitute as a "casting a spell" in regards to the Improved War Magic Class Feature allowing you to use you bonus action to attack? I would think so, if you are using your action to essentially "recast a spell" just without using a spell slot.
Hmmm. This seems to be a weird edge case that isn't super clear as things are written. In this case, I'd think yes. You *definitely* can't stack Vampiric Touch with an "extra attack" feature - you only get it once per turn. BUT in the case of the EK, I would say you could still use your bonus action to make a weapon attack with it, since it is a spell-based feature. I'd probably rule the same if we were talking about something like witch bolt, too.
The subsequent turn Actions for both Vampiric Touch and Witch Bolt are not using the “Cast a Spell” action, so therefore RAW the Improved War Magic class feature would grant you no bonus attack that turn.
It's good to note that while you're not taking the attack action, you're still making a melee attack which means that, yes, Ranger's Foe Slayer works with Vampire Touch, along with Feral Senses, Rogue's Stroke of Luck and Assassinate and Death Strike, Sorcerer's Tides of Chaos, Warlock's Hurl through Hell, Wizard's Portent, Barbarian's Brutal Critical and Totem Spirit (while under Wolf and the caster is an ally), Bard's Bardic Inspiration, Cleric's Channel Divinity: War God's Blessing (caster is an ally), and Druid's Primal Strike.
Of course, you'll need to find some way to get that effect on you but if you do, these features grant their benefits. Notice none of them refer to "melee weapon attacks" or "weapon attacks." Since it isn't a weapon attack, it's a spell attack.
So if it's not casting a spell you could use that as 1 of your 3 attacks if you were eldritch knight?
No. You must use your whole action to repeat the attack. It’s not the Attack action.
Citation needed.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Lets clear it all up.
1) Actions in Combat When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Attack Cast a Spell Dash Disengage Dodge Help Hide Ready Search Use an Object
2) Attack The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.
With this action, you make onemelee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
3) Making an Attack If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.
4) Melee Attacks Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Now lets look at Vampiric Touch.
CASTING TIME - 1 Action
Up front, this is 100% the Cast a Spell action ok. Turn one, easy.
What does it give us?
1) Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. 2) On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt. 3) Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action.
On turn one, we use the Cast a Spell Action, and are granted a melee spell attack to a creature within reach, in addition to the Cast a Spell action. Great!
On turn two, we no longer need the Cast a Spell action. We can go ahead and use the third feature. make the attack again on each of your turns as an action. Ok, what is the attack here? Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach.
Reminder, a melee spell attack is part of the Melee Attacks section above, which in turn is part of Making an Attack, which is done as part of the Attack action.
1) Actions in Combat When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions pres ented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Attack Cast a Spell Dash Disengage Dodge Help Hide Ready Search Use an Object
You're going to find most people agree that the action you take to repeat the attack is what that enlarged red line is talking about. It is a Special Action granted by the spell.
Exactly - it is a special action - replacing the melee attack - that you get to make each round as long as you maintain concentration on the spell. As such it replaces the normal attack action that would allow for multiattack or extra attacks from the extra attack feature.. the special attack allows you to activate the spell “energy” once a round if you can hit the foe with a melee attack. But you can’t do it twice(+) so no extra attacks.
The special action here is melee spell attack, a pre-defined part of the Attack action? Unless there is a SPECIFIC limit defined, you would default the GENERAL.
The action you are taking, melee spell attack, satisfies all the conditions of being the Attack action.
As you are no longer encumbered with the casting portion of the initial action, why then would the melee spell attack not be considered a part of the Attack action? The spell description does not explictly state that other class features or traits do not apply. See haste for an example where they clearly set this precident. "Attack (one weapon attack only)"
Typically, bonuses and features from differeing sources stack. e.g. +5 AC from shield and the +1 AC from having a shield equipped. Why then would your ability to swing twice when you take the Attack action not apply when doing an action that is clearly outlined as a part of said action, melee spell attack. Further, is there any case where a character has a melee spell attack that is not tied to a spell? Why else would it be added as a valid portion of the Attack action?
Shillelagh, has no melee spell attack componant in the verbage, but does have the 'melee' listed under the Attack/Save details. It's always been fine with multiattack. Magic Stone, is a ranged spell attack, and in my reading also qualifies for any multiattack conditions. Some people insist you need the sling for this, but where is a ranged spell attack not an Attack action? Flame Blade, includes a melee spell attack, and also would benifit from multiattack conditions.
Most others which persist past the 'Cast a Spell' action with the label 'melee' under the Attack/Save include a summoned weapon or creature, and would not satisfy the condition of you making the Attack action, e.g. Blade of Disaster.
Yeah we hear you. But, you're not using the Attack action. The Attack action tells you what you're allowed to attack with, and Vampiric Touch isn't a weapon.
No, you're not taking the Attack action. You're taking the Special action granted to you as an option from the spell itself.
If you're the DM running a game, you're always free to run your game however you like. Take whatever rules you don't like and toss them straight in the dustbin. If you want Extra-Attack-havers to attack more than once with Vampric Touch, go for it!
The difference being that Shillelagh simply alters the properties of an existing weapon. Not sure about Magic Stone, but regardless note that it specifically says you make a spell attack, whereas for Vampiric Touch it says you can take an action to make an attack roll. While that is also a description of what happens when you take the Attack Action, it clearly indicates that this is a discrete action.
It is the Attack action. That is why I linked to the exact verbiage. Logically, their wording, and specific definitions of features puts the latter melee spell attacks under the Attack action. If we simply replace the specific words with symbols, we can draw out the conditions in a clear manner.
On your turn you can 🍗,🪦,🧼,🎈,🍺,🌾,🪺,🏖️,🫖,🛢️
🍗 is 🌧️ or 🦀
🌧️ is 🌊 or 🗑️
🦀 is 🕳️ or 🗿
You 🪦. It allows you to also 🗑️
Next turn you can 🗑️ if you want.
Since 🗑️,🌧️
Since 🌧️,🍗
A class feature states when 🍗, you can 🌧️🌧️, or 🌧️🦀, or 🦀🦀. So, 🌊🌊,🕳️🕳️,🗿🗿,🗑️🗑️
While this looks ridiculous, WotC used specific wording when defining the spell details. If there is a unique action granted by a spell, it needs to be defined as such. The specific terms used are a part of a broader category which itself is impacted by class features. i.e. when declaring 'ranged weapon attack' in a description, all features which affect a 'ranged weapon attack' will be applicable. If Vampiric touch provided a unique action, don't declare a pre-existing variable as an ongoing capability. You gain the 'Vampiric Touch' action, which does x.
You don’t want to believe what we are saying feel free to ask the question at sage advice and see what they have to say. I will say that your version would not fly in games I DM.
It is the Attack action. That is why I linked to the exact verbiage. Logically, their wording, and specific definitions of features puts the latter melee spell attacks under the Attack action. If we simply replace the specific words with symbols, we can draw out the conditions in a clear manner.
On your turn you can 🍗,🪦,🧼,🎈,🍺,🌾,🪺,🏖️,🫖,🛢️
🍗 is 🌧️ or 🦀
🌧️ is 🌊 or 🗑️
🦀 is 🕳️ or 🗿
You 🪦. It allows you to also 🗑️
Next turn you can 🗑️ if you want.
Since 🗑️,🌧️
Since 🌧️,🍗
A class feature states when 🍗, you can 🌧️🌧️, or 🌧️🦀, or 🦀🦀. So, 🌊🌊,🕳️🕳️,🗿🗿,🗑️🗑️
While this looks ridiculous, WotC used specific wording when defining the spell details. If there is a unique action granted by a spell, it needs to be defined as such. The specific terms used are a part of a broader category which itself is impacted by class features. i.e. when declaring 'ranged weapon attack' in a description, all features which affect a 'ranged weapon attack' will be applicable. If Vampiric touch provided a unique action, don't declare a pre-existing variable as an ongoing capability. You gain the 'Vampiric Touch' action, which does x.
Okay let's say you do take this hypothetical Attack action.
What are you attacking with? Because Vampiric Touch doesn't alter or create anything physical. So you're attacking with just punches? That's just an unarmed attack, because, again, Vampiric Touch isn't like some rider effect that triggers when you attack, it is its own attack. You can't even treat the spell effect as an improvised weapon because there isn't even an object there. So what are you attacking with?
If your answer is "the spell effect" then I've got bad news. Spells only do what they say they do.
While this looks ridiculous, WotC used specific wording when defining the spell details. If there is a unique action granted by a spell, it needs to be defined as such. The specific terms used are a part of a broader category which itself is impacted by class features. i.e. when declaring 'ranged weapon attack' in a description, all features which affect a 'ranged weapon attack' will be applicable. If Vampiric touch provided a unique action, don't declare a pre-existing variable as an ongoing capability. You gain the 'Vampiric Touch' action, which does x.
It is. The spell clearly says so.
you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action.
And the same goes for Witch Bolt and Flame Blade and bunch of other similar spells.
It is the Attack action. That is why I linked to the exact verbiage. Logically, their wording, and specific definitions of features puts the latter melee spell attacks under the Attack action. If we simply replace the specific words with symbols, we can draw out the conditions in a clear manner.
On your turn you can 🍗,🪦,🧼,🎈,🍺,🌾,🪺,🏖️,🫖,🛢️
🍗 is 🌧️ or 🦀
🌧️ is 🌊 or 🗑️
🦀 is 🕳️ or 🗿
You 🪦. It allows you to also 🗑️
Next turn you can 🗑️ if you want.
Since 🗑️,🌧️
Since 🌧️,🍗
A class feature states when 🍗, you can 🌧️🌧️, or 🌧️🦀, or 🦀🦀. So, 🌊🌊,🕳️🕳️,🗿🗿,🗑️🗑️
While this looks ridiculous, WotC used specific wording when defining the spell details. If there is a unique action granted by a spell, it needs to be defined as such. The specific terms used are a part of a broader category which itself is impacted by class features. i.e. when declaring 'ranged weapon attack' in a description, all features which affect a 'ranged weapon attack' will be applicable. If Vampiric touch provided a unique action, don't declare a pre-existing variable as an ongoing capability. You gain the 'Vampiric Touch' action, which does x.
Funny, you say WotC uses specific wording, yet they never used the wording “when you take the Attack action” like they do in so many other places.
Pretty much everyone is telling you that you are incorrect but you seem to not care.
While this looks ridiculous, WotC used specific wording when defining the spell details. If there is a unique action granted by a spell, it needs to be defined as such. The specific terms used are a part of a broader category which itself is impacted by class features. i.e. when declaring 'ranged weapon attack' in a description, all features which affect a 'ranged weapon attack' will be applicable. If Vampiric touch provided a unique action, don't declare a pre-existing variable as an ongoing capability. You gain the 'Vampiric Touch' action, which does x.
It is. The spell clearly says so.
you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action.
And the same goes for Witch Bolt and Flame Blade and bunch of other similar spells.
Which is where I think they need to clarify the name of said action. As 'melee spell attack' is already a pre-defined action that exists under the Attack action category. So either, that is intentional, and multiattack applies when you do not use your action to 'Cast a Spell', or it was a poor wording choice, and they need to reword the spells as such. i.e. Have a simple header 'special feature:' and describe the ongoing aspect. As they have already defined a specific term for the action, this is NOT a special feature, it exists already under the Attack action.
When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Regardless, it (and the other few melee spell attack features) is mathematically weaker than other spell options any build would have at the level or mix required to function, so it's really not a mechanical problem to work with at the table.
They were obviously talking about unique class features, as defined here:
Your class gives you a variety of special features, such as a fighter’s mastery of weapons and armor, and a wizard’s spells. At low levels, your class gives you only two or three features, but as you advance in level you gain more and your existing features often improve. Each class entry in this chapter includes a table summarizing the benefits you gain at every level, and a detailed explanation of each one.
Hmmm. This seems to be a weird edge case that isn't super clear as things are written. In this case, I'd think yes. You *definitely* can't stack Vampiric Touch with an "extra attack" feature - you only get it once per turn. BUT in the case of the EK, I would say you could still use your bonus action to make a weapon attack with it, since it is a spell-based feature. I'd probably rule the same if we were talking about something like witch bolt, too.
The subsequent turn Actions for both Vampiric Touch and Witch Bolt are not using the “Cast a Spell” action, so therefore RAW the Improved War Magic class feature would grant you no bonus attack that turn.
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It's good to note that while you're not taking the attack action, you're still making a melee attack which means that, yes, Ranger's Foe Slayer works with Vampire Touch, along with Feral Senses, Rogue's Stroke of Luck and Assassinate and Death Strike, Sorcerer's Tides of Chaos, Warlock's Hurl through Hell, Wizard's Portent, Barbarian's Brutal Critical and Totem Spirit (while under Wolf and the caster is an ally), Bard's Bardic Inspiration, Cleric's Channel Divinity: War God's Blessing (caster is an ally), and Druid's Primal Strike.
Of course, you'll need to find some way to get that effect on you but if you do, these features grant their benefits. Notice none of them refer to "melee weapon attacks" or "weapon attacks." Since it isn't a weapon attack, it's a spell attack.
:)
So if it's not casting a spell you could use that as 1 of your 3 attacks if you were eldritch knight?
No. You must use your whole action to repeat the attack. It’s not the Attack action.
Citation needed.
Lets clear it all up.
1) Actions in Combat
When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Attack
Cast a Spell
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Ready
Search
Use an Object
2) Attack
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.
With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks.
Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.
3) Making an Attack
If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.
4) Melee Attacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Now lets look at Vampiric Touch.
Up front, this is 100% the Cast a Spell action ok. Turn one, easy.
What does it give us?
1) Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach.
2) On a hit, the target takes 3d6 necrotic damage, and you regain hit points equal to half the amount of necrotic damage dealt.
3) Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action.
On turn one, we use the Cast a Spell Action, and are granted a melee spell attack to a creature within reach, in addition to the Cast a Spell action. Great!
On turn two, we no longer need the Cast a Spell action. We can go ahead and use the third feature. make the attack again on each of your turns as an action. Ok, what is the attack here? Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach.
Reminder, a melee spell attack is part of the Melee Attacks section above, which in turn is part of Making an Attack, which is done as part of the Attack action.
Ergo, the multiattack feature is applicable.
You're going to find most people agree that the action you take to repeat the attack is what that enlarged red line is talking about. It is a Special Action granted by the spell.
I got quotes!
Exactly - it is a special action - replacing the melee attack - that you get to make each round as long as you maintain concentration on the spell. As such it replaces the normal attack action that would allow for multiattack or extra attacks from the extra attack feature.. the special attack allows you to activate the spell “energy” once a round if you can hit the foe with a melee attack. But you can’t do it twice(+) so no extra attacks.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The special action here is melee spell attack, a pre-defined part of the Attack action? Unless there is a SPECIFIC limit defined, you would default the GENERAL.
The specific limit is that you are not taking the Attack Action, you are taking an action that involves an attack roll.
The action you are taking, melee spell attack, satisfies all the conditions of being the Attack action.
As you are no longer encumbered with the casting portion of the initial action, why then would the melee spell attack not be considered a part of the Attack action? The spell description does not explictly state that other class features or traits do not apply. See haste for an example where they clearly set this precident. "Attack (one weapon attack only)"
Typically, bonuses and features from differeing sources stack. e.g. +5 AC from shield and the +1 AC from having a shield equipped. Why then would your ability to swing twice when you take the Attack action not apply when doing an action that is clearly outlined as a part of said action, melee spell attack. Further, is there any case where a character has a melee spell attack that is not tied to a spell? Why else would it be added as a valid portion of the Attack action?
Shillelagh, has no melee spell attack componant in the verbage, but does have the 'melee' listed under the Attack/Save details. It's always been fine with multiattack.
Magic Stone, is a ranged spell attack, and in my reading also qualifies for any multiattack conditions. Some people insist you need the sling for this, but where is a ranged spell attack not an Attack action?
Flame Blade, includes a melee spell attack, and also would benifit from multiattack conditions.
Most others which persist past the 'Cast a Spell' action with the label 'melee' under the Attack/Save include a summoned weapon or creature, and would not satisfy the condition of you making the Attack action, e.g. Blade of Disaster.
Yeah we hear you. But, you're not using the Attack action. The Attack action tells you what you're allowed to attack with, and Vampiric Touch isn't a weapon.
No, you're not taking the Attack action. You're taking the Special action granted to you as an option from the spell itself.
If you're the DM running a game, you're always free to run your game however you like. Take whatever rules you don't like and toss them straight in the dustbin. If you want Extra-Attack-havers to attack more than once with Vampric Touch, go for it!
I got quotes!
The difference being that Shillelagh simply alters the properties of an existing weapon. Not sure about Magic Stone, but regardless note that it specifically says you make a spell attack, whereas for Vampiric Touch it says you can take an action to make an attack roll. While that is also a description of what happens when you take the Attack Action, it clearly indicates that this is a discrete action.
It is the Attack action. That is why I linked to the exact verbiage. Logically, their wording, and specific definitions of features puts the latter melee spell attacks under the Attack action. If we simply replace the specific words with symbols, we can draw out the conditions in a clear manner.
On your turn you can 🍗,🪦,🧼,🎈,🍺,🌾,🪺,🏖️,🫖,🛢️
🍗 is 🌧️ or 🦀
🌧️ is 🌊 or 🗑️
🦀 is 🕳️ or 🗿
You 🪦. It allows you to also 🗑️
Next turn you can 🗑️ if you want.
Since 🗑️,🌧️
Since 🌧️,🍗
A class feature states when 🍗, you can 🌧️🌧️, or 🌧️🦀, or 🦀🦀. So, 🌊🌊,🕳️🕳️,🗿🗿,🗑️🗑️
While this looks ridiculous, WotC used specific wording when defining the spell details. If there is a unique action granted by a spell, it needs to be defined as such. The specific terms used are a part of a broader category which itself is impacted by class features. i.e. when declaring 'ranged weapon attack' in a description, all features which affect a 'ranged weapon attack' will be applicable. If Vampiric touch provided a unique action, don't declare a pre-existing variable as an ongoing capability. You gain the 'Vampiric Touch' action, which does x.
You don’t want to believe what we are saying feel free to ask the question at sage advice and see what they have to say. I will say that your version would not fly in games I DM.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Okay let's say you do take this hypothetical Attack action.
What are you attacking with? Because Vampiric Touch doesn't alter or create anything physical. So you're attacking with just punches? That's just an unarmed attack, because, again, Vampiric Touch isn't like some rider effect that triggers when you attack, it is its own attack. You can't even treat the spell effect as an improvised weapon because there isn't even an object there. So what are you attacking with?
If your answer is "the spell effect" then I've got bad news. Spells only do what they say they do.
I got quotes!
It is. The spell clearly says so.
And the same goes for Witch Bolt and Flame Blade and bunch of other similar spells.
Funny, you say WotC uses specific wording, yet they never used the wording “when you take the Attack action” like they do in so many other places.
Pretty much everyone is telling you that you are incorrect but you seem to not care.
Which is where I think they need to clarify the name of said action. As 'melee spell attack' is already a pre-defined action that exists under the Attack action category. So either, that is intentional, and multiattack applies when you do not use your action to 'Cast a Spell', or it was a poor wording choice, and they need to reword the spells as such. i.e. Have a simple header 'special feature:' and describe the ongoing aspect. As they have already defined a specific term for the action, this is NOT a special feature, it exists already under the Attack action.
When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Regardless, it (and the other few melee spell attack features) is mathematically weaker than other spell options any build would have at the level or mix required to function, so it's really not a mechanical problem to work with at the table.
They were obviously talking about unique class features, as defined here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/classes