Let's say you cast Vampiric Touch and make your melee spell attack that round. In later rounds what does the 1 action melee spell attack count as? Because you are no longer making the melee spell attack as part of casting the spell. Does the spell simply give you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack or does the spell give your attack action more options?
Let's say you cast Vampiric Touch and make your melee spell attack that round. In later rounds what does the 1 action melee spell attack count as? Because you are no longer making the melee spell attack as part of casting the spell. Does the spell simply give you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack or does the spell give your attack action more options?
As ruled by JC - "Casting vampiric touch includes making a spell attack. Until the spell ends, you can repeat the attack as an action."
It's essentially adding an option to your action for "Attack with Vampiric Touch". Similar in principle to how the Dragon's Breath spell lets the creature use an action each turn to trigger the breath weapon attack it gets.
I might be misunderstanding your question, so let me know if this misses the point. The 1 action melee spell attack counts as.... a melee spell attack, that you make using an action? Vampiric Touch is a spell that targets yourself: you are enchanting your own hand for the 1 minute (concentration) duration to imbue it with the power to make a special melee spell attack. When you cast it using an action, the spell allows you to immediately make a melee spell attack as part of the same action, but you can also make the same melee spell attack against targets within melee range in future rounds without re-casting the spell, so long as you're still maintaining concentration and within the 1-minute duration. That attack is not casting a spell (doesn't take more spell slots), but it is still a "melee spell attack". It also is not an added effect you get to add on top of any melee weapon attacks you might make using the Attack action or whatever. It's just a new option for what you can do with your Action every round.
In mechanics terms, a melee spell attack is a spell that allows you to make a melee attack, but use your spell casting modifier instead of your STR or DEX modifier for To-Hit calculations.
Also, since a melee spell attack is not a ranged attack, you do not suffer disadvantage for casting in melee range.
That's what I kinda figured, but wasn't sure because of some contradictory text in the PHB
Attack: "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks. " - PHB pg. 192
Making an Attack: "Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure." - PHB pg. 193
I get the confusion. I'm trying to ascertain whether or not a melee spell attack should count as an attack action and thus be eligible for all the various abilities and effects that play directly into attack actions.
Well, you are making an attack roll as part of a spell... just not as part of casting that spell (or, you are as part of casting it on the first round, but then in future rounds not as part of casting it).
Yeah that PHB line is a bit of an oversimplification since it omits some other niche attacks (and not to mention unarmed strike attacks!), but I wouldn't say it goes so far as to contradict anything else, it's just not a comprehensive summary of all attack types.
I get the confusion. I'm trying to ascertain whether or not a melee spell attack should count as an attack action and thus be eligible for all the various abilities and effects that play directly into attack actions.
Oh, no, it definitely is not a part of the "Attack" action. Contrast Vampiric Touch (lets you make a special melee spell attack as an action as an alternative to other actions) with Shadow Blade (creates a magical weapon that you can use as part of the Attack action).
It has absolutely zero relation to the Attack action; Cast a Spell is the action you are taking on your turn. Vampiric Touch essentially allows you to--while concentration is maintained--use the Cast a Spell action (on a subsequent turn) to attempt using Vampiric Touch again on another eligible target (without spending another spell slot).
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, no, you aren't using the "Cast a Spell" action. Cast a Spell lets you... cast a spell, which you aren't doing. You're using the special action that maintaining concentration on the spell allows you to do. Mage Slayer, for example, would not allow you to make an opportunity attack against somebody using the special melee spell attack action granted by Vampiric Touch on subsequent rounds (though it would let you make a melee attack when it is first cast).
You are being overly-pedantic. The functional comparison of utilizing the ongoing effect as being like using the Cast a Spell action again is valid, and entirely accurate. Vampiric Touch allows you to do every step again on subsequent turns while maintaining concentration.
At no point did I ever say, or imply, that what I wrote would apply to anything other than the specific spell Vampiric Touch.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Maintaining concentration on Vampiric Touch, and using the special action that it grants you, would not interfere with you casting a different leveled spell using your bonus action because you aren't casting a spell. It isn't pedantic, it's an important distinction.
Does the spell simply give you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack or does the spell give your attack action more options?
Exactly the former. The spell let's you use your action to make a melee spell attack for the effects described in the spell instead of one of the other basic actions (like attack or cast a spell).
There are plenty of examples of class features and spells that give you ways to use your action and bonus action in ways that are not the usual attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, hide, improvise, etc.
And just to re-emphasize, using your action on subsequent turns to make a melee spell attack with vampiric touch is neither the attack action nor the cast a spell action.
Does the spell simply give you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack or does the spell give your attack action more options?
Exactly the former. The spell let's you use your action to make a melee spell attack for the effects described in the spell instead of one of the other basic actions (like attack or cast a spell).
There are plenty of examples of class features and spells that give you ways to use your action and bonus action in ways that are not the usual attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, hide, improvise, etc.
And just to re-emphasize, using your action on subsequent turns to make a melee spell attack with vampiric touch is neither the attack action nor the cast a spell action.
This seems to be where the bulk of the evidence is pointing, and well put. Thanks to all who posted, this was very helpful.
If Vampiric Touch just increased your standard Unarmed Attack for a bunch of turns, it'd be extremely fun to drop onto a monk multiclass. Slapping a dude with your magic-hands six times a turn would be just a smigen unbalanced though, so it's probably for the best that you can't multiattack with melee spell attacks.
So lets say you are a Eldritch Knight Fighter, 18 lvl with the Improved War Magic Class Feature (Starting at 18th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.)
You cast Vampiric Touch, bonus action attack. Next turn, you maintain concentration to do the melee spell attack, but does this constitute as a "casting a spell" in regards to the Improved War Magic Class Feature allowing you to use you bonus action to attack? I would think so, if you are using your action to essentially "recast a spell" just without using a spell slot.
So lets say you are a Eldritch Knight Fighter, 18 lvl with the Improved War Magic Class Feature (Starting at 18th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.)
You cast Vampiric Touch, bonus action attack. Next turn, you maintain concentration to do the melee spell attack, but does this constitute as a "casting a spell" in regards to the Improved War Magic Class Feature allowing you to use you bonus action to attack? I would think so, if you are using your action to essentially "recast a spell" just without using a spell slot.
It doesn't actually count as casting a spell, but if I were DM, I could probably be talked into allowing it anyway.
So lets say you are a Eldritch Knight Fighter, 18 lvl with the Improved War Magic Class Feature (Starting at 18th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.)
You cast Vampiric Touch, bonus action attack. Next turn, you maintain concentration to do the melee spell attack, but does this constitute as a "casting a spell" in regards to the Improved War Magic Class Feature allowing you to use you bonus action to attack? I would think so, if you are using your action to essentially "recast a spell" just without using a spell slot.
Using your Vampiric Touch in subsequent turns counts as neither the “Attack Action” nor the “Cast a Spell Action” its it’s own weird thing at that point.
Each turn you have an Action, Bonus Action, and Movement. You spend your Action to cast Vampiric Touch and use a 3rd level spell slot. On your next turn you use your Action to make the melee spell attack again but you dont use up another 3rd level spell spot.
Let's say you cast Vampiric Touch and make your melee spell attack that round. In later rounds what does the 1 action melee spell attack count as? Because you are no longer making the melee spell attack as part of casting the spell. Does the spell simply give you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack or does the spell give your attack action more options?
To use your words: it “simply give[s] you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack.”
Let's say you cast Vampiric Touch and make your melee spell attack that round. In later rounds what does the 1 action melee spell attack count as? Because you are no longer making the melee spell attack as part of casting the spell. Does the spell simply give you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack or does the spell give your attack action more options?
As ruled by JC - "Casting vampiric touch includes making a spell attack. Until the spell ends, you can repeat the attack as an action."
It's essentially adding an option to your action for "Attack with Vampiric Touch". Similar in principle to how the Dragon's Breath spell lets the creature use an action each turn to trigger the breath weapon attack it gets.
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
I might be misunderstanding your question, so let me know if this misses the point. The 1 action melee spell attack counts as.... a melee spell attack, that you make using an action? Vampiric Touch is a spell that targets yourself: you are enchanting your own hand for the 1 minute (concentration) duration to imbue it with the power to make a special melee spell attack. When you cast it using an action, the spell allows you to immediately make a melee spell attack as part of the same action, but you can also make the same melee spell attack against targets within melee range in future rounds without re-casting the spell, so long as you're still maintaining concentration and within the 1-minute duration. That attack is not casting a spell (doesn't take more spell slots), but it is still a "melee spell attack". It also is not an added effect you get to add on top of any melee weapon attacks you might make using the Attack action or whatever. It's just a new option for what you can do with your Action every round.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
In mechanics terms, a melee spell attack is a spell that allows you to make a melee attack, but use your spell casting modifier instead of your STR or DEX modifier for To-Hit calculations.
Also, since a melee spell attack is not a ranged attack, you do not suffer disadvantage for casting in melee range.
That's what I kinda figured, but wasn't sure because of some contradictory text in the PHB
Attack: "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks. " - PHB pg. 192
Making an Attack: "Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure." - PHB pg. 193
I get the confusion. I'm trying to ascertain whether or not a melee spell attack should count as an attack action and thus be eligible for all the various abilities and effects that play directly into attack actions.
Well, you are making an attack roll as part of a spell... just not as part of casting that spell (or, you are as part of casting it on the first round, but then in future rounds not as part of casting it).
Yeah that PHB line is a bit of an oversimplification since it omits some other niche attacks (and not to mention unarmed strike attacks!), but I wouldn't say it goes so far as to contradict anything else, it's just not a comprehensive summary of all attack types.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Oh, no, it definitely is not a part of the "Attack" action. Contrast Vampiric Touch (lets you make a special melee spell attack as an action as an alternative to other actions) with Shadow Blade (creates a magical weapon that you can use as part of the Attack action).
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It has absolutely zero relation to the Attack action; Cast a Spell is the action you are taking on your turn. Vampiric Touch essentially allows you to--while concentration is maintained--use the Cast a Spell action (on a subsequent turn) to attempt using Vampiric Touch again on another eligible target (without spending another spell slot).
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, no, you aren't using the "Cast a Spell" action. Cast a Spell lets you... cast a spell, which you aren't doing. You're using the special action that maintaining concentration on the spell allows you to do. Mage Slayer, for example, would not allow you to make an opportunity attack against somebody using the special melee spell attack action granted by Vampiric Touch on subsequent rounds (though it would let you make a melee attack when it is first cast).
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You are being overly-pedantic. The functional comparison of utilizing the ongoing effect as being like using the Cast a Spell action again is valid, and entirely accurate. Vampiric Touch allows you to do every step again on subsequent turns while maintaining concentration.
At no point did I ever say, or imply, that what I wrote would apply to anything other than the specific spell Vampiric Touch.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Maintaining concentration on Vampiric Touch, and using the special action that it grants you, would not interfere with you casting a different leveled spell using your bonus action because you aren't casting a spell. It isn't pedantic, it's an important distinction.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Exactly the former. The spell let's you use your action to make a melee spell attack for the effects described in the spell instead of one of the other basic actions (like attack or cast a spell).
There are plenty of examples of class features and spells that give you ways to use your action and bonus action in ways that are not the usual attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, hide, improvise, etc.
And just to re-emphasize, using your action on subsequent turns to make a melee spell attack with vampiric touch is neither the attack action nor the cast a spell action.
This seems to be where the bulk of the evidence is pointing, and well put. Thanks to all who posted, this was very helpful.
If Vampiric Touch just increased your standard Unarmed Attack for a bunch of turns, it'd be extremely fun to drop onto a monk multiclass. Slapping a dude with your magic-hands six times a turn would be just a smigen unbalanced though, so it's probably for the best that you can't multiattack with melee spell attacks.
So lets say you are a Eldritch Knight Fighter, 18 lvl with the Improved War Magic Class Feature (Starting at 18th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.)
You cast Vampiric Touch, bonus action attack. Next turn, you maintain concentration to do the melee spell attack, but does this constitute as a "casting a spell" in regards to the Improved War Magic Class Feature allowing you to use you bonus action to attack? I would think so, if you are using your action to essentially "recast a spell" just without using a spell slot.
It doesn't actually count as casting a spell, but if I were DM, I could probably be talked into allowing it anyway.
Using your Vampiric Touch in subsequent turns counts as neither the “Attack Action” nor the “Cast a Spell Action” its it’s own weird thing at that point.
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Each turn you have an Action, Bonus Action, and Movement. You spend your Action to cast Vampiric Touch and use a 3rd level spell slot. On your next turn you use your Action to make the melee spell attack again but you dont use up another 3rd level spell spot.
To use your words: it “simply give[s] you the ability to spend an action to make a melee spell attack.”
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