I've made a build of a Warforged Fighter 1/Monk 12 and was wondering what you guys think about it. The Fighter starting level is to get proficiency with heavy armor in order to use heavy armor plating, eliminating the need for Dexterity for armor calculation.
Heavy armor plating doesn't give you Dex bonus anyway.
Personally if I were your DM I wouldn't allow any of the armored forms and Monk martial arts. The armored forms state "armor" and also duplicate the effect of medium and heavy armor including the disadvantages. There are several features that state "unarmored", the armor forms would negate these.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Personally if I were your DM I wouldn't allow any of the armored forms and Monk martial arts.
AH! Completely missed that Martial Arts also requires not to be armored. I thought this was only for other features. Yeah so this is a no :P Thanks for the reminder Wysperra.
The Darkwood Core Integrated Protection setting is considered "unarmoured" and gives an AC calculation of 11+Dex. You are considered to be unarmoured when using this.
A monk's AC calculation of 10 + Dex + Wis is an unarmoured defense too. As per the rules of AC calculation you choose whichever is greater, which will probably be the Monk's Unarmoured Defense AC.
So a Warforged Monk is very feasible just you basically ignore Integrated Protection feature but still benefit from all the other features Warforged offers.
The Darkwood Core Integrated Protection setting is considered "unarmoured" and gives an AC calculation of 11+Dex. You are considered to be unarmoured when using this.
A monk's AC calculation of 10 + Dex + Wis is an unarmoured defense too. As per the rules of AC calculation you choose whichever is greater, which will probably be the Monk's Unarmoured Defense AC.
So a Warforged Monk is very feasible just you basically ignore Integrated Protection feature but still benefit from all the other features Warforged offers.
Yeah I thought so much. I was wondering if it would be feasable as a Str-based monk rather than Dex based, but I guess that doesn't work. Thanks for the input though :)
Keith Baker's FAQ clarifies that warforged integrated protection modes count as armored (except darkwood core). However, he's not a recognized authority for rules clarifications, and that reading directly contradicts the fact that integrated protection modes do not count as being armored for things like defensive fighting style, or the medium/heavy armor master feats (Keith Baker acknowledges this). Rather than erring on the side of his internally-inconsistent interpretation, it makes more sense to stick to RAW: nowhere in integrated protection does it suggest that you're considered to be wearing armor in any way, only that those modes are only accessible if you have the relevant armor proficiency. Integrated protection is a great choice for barbarians with low dex, or monks that don't feel like investing too much in wisdom.
Integrated protection is too good and needs to be nerfed before final release, but letting monks and barbarians use it isn't it's biggest problem, and it isn't worth carving a non-sensical exception out of the RAW just to stop that.
It is nonsensical to say that you count as armored for the purpose of saying you can't do monk martial arts, but don't count as armored for the sake of saying that you receive bonuses while wearing armor from defensive fighting style. Baker's RAI explanation carves out a space where monk warforged can't use martial arts in heavy mode, but monk barbarians can rage in it, which seems to treat the two classes different for no particular reason. All in all, absent any language that actually says "you are considered to be wearing armor in this mode", I'd rather play with the ability as written rather than Baker's poorly thought out justification for what he should have written.
And his slapping "(armor)" in a table doesn't clear up anything. This is what happens when you release "official" content that wasn't edited to be formatted or mechanically designed in a fashion that is consistent with the rest of the official content.
Martial Arts does not require that you not be armored. I requires that you not wear armor. Now I wouldn't be at all surprised by a DM denying the bonus and frankly they would be in the right to do so... But technically a Warforged using Heavy Plating is not wearing armor.
So you've got situation where you should definately clarify the point with the DM before taking on the build.
It's not particularly broken, as you must invest a character level to gain armor proficiency, and you are still unable to get the benefits of many powerful magic items or shields, but it is still better than any other form of mundane armor.
Martial Arts does not require that you not be armored. I requires that you not wear armor. Now I wouldn't be at all surprised by a DM denying the bonus and frankly they would be in the right to do so... But technically a Warforged using Heavy Plating is not wearing armor.
Personally I believe that RAI is that a Heavy Plating Warforged counts as wearing armor.
This build was mostly to make a str-based monk, but it doesn't work in that way.
the character builder lets you do it..... you get martial arts increasing dice as you level in dndbeyond despite the integrated armor. I understand the argument and it is likely just an oversight in the check process. That said DM discretion is where i pretty much always live on these things. After all outside league play players and dms should always be working together toward what will provide the best game for the group. I think str monks are something players have wanted for a long time and recently liberated warforged pit fighters is as interesting as any other warforged backstory.
Myself I have issue with a warforged Monk with a 20 Dex, and 20 Wis having a AC of 26. Which is one reason that those last 2 options that count as medium armor and heavy armor will not work with unarmored defense as per Jeremy Crawford answering in sage advice on twitter. If someone is going with a warforged monk, you have 0 need for strength as you can use Dex for all attacks, and the Warforged can have the lightest load to carry in his pack as they do not need clothing, food, or water. If they are a caster class with access to the Light cantrip they can also dump the torches freeing up another 10 pounds. That drops 35 pounds from the standard loadout.
A Warforged Monk with light armor proficiency at level 17+ with 20 Dex would have AC 22, 11+Dex+Proficiency, with heavy armor proficiency and no Dex AC 22, 16+profiency, or with no proficiency with 20 Dex and Wis at any level AC 20, 10+Dex+Wis.
As with Barbarian's Unarmored Defense you may only benefit from one primary source of AC. So in order for your monk to reach 26 he'd also need some +4 from magic items.
The concept of a low Wisdom Monk appeals to me, and having that with a Warforged fits thematically as well.
Yeah, sacrificing a feat or mutliclassing your monk to have 2 extra AC at 20 over a pure monk doesn't seem like a problem for me. Tortles and Warforged are both great races for ignoring Dex or Wisdom and building a non-traditional monk that doesn't lose too much AC.
The concept of a low Wisdom Monk appeals to me, and having that with a Warforged fits thematically as well.
May be useful to point out that your Ki-effects save DC is based on Wisdom, so you may find you don't get mileage out of things like Stunning Strike if you go low WIS.
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I've made a build of a Warforged Fighter 1/Monk 12 and was wondering what you guys think about it. The Fighter starting level is to get proficiency with heavy armor in order to use heavy armor plating, eliminating the need for Dexterity for armor calculation.
You can find the character here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/4535812/BgeiYM
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Heavy armor plating doesn't give you Dex bonus anyway.
Personally if I were your DM I wouldn't allow any of the armored forms and Monk martial arts. The armored forms state "armor" and also duplicate the effect of medium and heavy armor including the disadvantages. There are several features that state "unarmored", the armor forms would negate these.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
AH! Completely missed that Martial Arts also requires not to be armored. I thought this was only for other features. Yeah so this is a no :P Thanks for the reminder Wysperra.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
The Darkwood Core Integrated Protection setting is considered "unarmoured" and gives an AC calculation of 11+Dex. You are considered to be unarmoured when using this.
A monk's AC calculation of 10 + Dex + Wis is an unarmoured defense too. As per the rules of AC calculation you choose whichever is greater, which will probably be the Monk's Unarmoured Defense AC.
So a Warforged Monk is very feasible just you basically ignore Integrated Protection feature but still benefit from all the other features Warforged offers.
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Yeah I thought so much. I was wondering if it would be feasable as a Str-based monk rather than Dex based, but I guess that doesn't work. Thanks for the input though :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Keith Baker's FAQ clarifies that warforged integrated protection modes count as armored (except darkwood core). However, he's not a recognized authority for rules clarifications, and that reading directly contradicts the fact that integrated protection modes do not count as being armored for things like defensive fighting style, or the medium/heavy armor master feats (Keith Baker acknowledges this). Rather than erring on the side of his internally-inconsistent interpretation, it makes more sense to stick to RAW: nowhere in integrated protection does it suggest that you're considered to be wearing armor in any way, only that those modes are only accessible if you have the relevant armor proficiency. Integrated protection is a great choice for barbarians with low dex, or monks that don't feel like investing too much in wisdom.
Integrated protection is too good and needs to be nerfed before final release, but letting monks and barbarians use it isn't it's biggest problem, and it isn't worth carving a non-sensical exception out of the RAW just to stop that.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
16 + your proficiency bonus; disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
How is that a nonsensical exception. It says unarmored and amor.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It is nonsensical to say that you count as armored for the purpose of saying you can't do monk martial arts, but don't count as armored for the sake of saying that you receive bonuses while wearing armor from defensive fighting style. Baker's RAI explanation carves out a space where monk warforged can't use martial arts in heavy mode, but monk barbarians can rage in it, which seems to treat the two classes different for no particular reason. All in all, absent any language that actually says "you are considered to be wearing armor in this mode", I'd rather play with the ability as written rather than Baker's poorly thought out justification for what he should have written.
And his slapping "(armor)" in a table doesn't clear up anything. This is what happens when you release "official" content that wasn't edited to be formatted or mechanically designed in a fashion that is consistent with the rest of the official content.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I actually disagree with you Chicken_Champ. The racial clearly states you can't gain any benefit from wearing armor. Yet it does influence (penalise) you. That means that any and all features that require you to wear armor is shut off. That way it, to me, is fine as is and doesn't really need nerfing. (You can find my full post on warforged here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/unearthed-arcana/21559-thoughts-on-how-to-modify-eberron-races)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Martial Arts does not require that you not be armored. I requires that you not wear armor. Now I wouldn't be at all surprised by a DM denying the bonus and frankly they would be in the right to do so... But technically a Warforged using Heavy Plating is not wearing armor.
So you've got situation where you should definately clarify the point with the DM before taking on the build.
It's not particularly broken, as you must invest a character level to gain armor proficiency, and you are still unable to get the benefits of many powerful magic items or shields, but it is still better than any other form of mundane armor.
Extended Signature
Personally I believe that RAI is that a Heavy Plating Warforged counts as wearing armor.
This build was mostly to make a str-based monk, but it doesn't work in that way.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
the character builder lets you do it..... you get martial arts increasing dice as you level in dndbeyond despite the integrated armor. I understand the argument and it is likely just an oversight in the check process. That said DM discretion is where i pretty much always live on these things. After all outside league play players and dms should always be working together toward what will provide the best game for the group. I think str monks are something players have wanted for a long time and recently liberated warforged pit fighters is as interesting as any other warforged backstory.
There is nothing stopping you from having high Str as a Monk and using Str for damage.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Myself I have issue with a warforged Monk with a 20 Dex, and 20 Wis having a AC of 26. Which is one reason that those last 2 options that count as medium armor and heavy armor will not work with unarmored defense as per Jeremy Crawford answering in sage advice on twitter. If someone is going with a warforged monk, you have 0 need for strength as you can use Dex for all attacks, and the Warforged can have the lightest load to carry in his pack as they do not need clothing, food, or water. If they are a caster class with access to the Light cantrip they can also dump the torches freeing up another 10 pounds. That drops 35 pounds from the standard loadout.
A Warforged Monk with light armor proficiency at level 17+ with 20 Dex would have AC 22, 11+Dex+Proficiency, with heavy armor proficiency and no Dex AC 22, 16+profiency, or with no proficiency with 20 Dex and Wis at any level AC 20, 10+Dex+Wis.
As with Barbarian's Unarmored Defense you may only benefit from one primary source of AC. So in order for your monk to reach 26 he'd also need some +4 from magic items.
The concept of a low Wisdom Monk appeals to me, and having that with a Warforged fits thematically as well.
Extended Signature
Yeah, sacrificing a feat or mutliclassing your monk to have 2 extra AC at 20 over a pure monk doesn't seem like a problem for me. Tortles and Warforged are both great races for ignoring Dex or Wisdom and building a non-traditional monk that doesn't lose too much AC.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
totally good. dark wood core is unarmored. Already have a pc playing one
May be useful to point out that your Ki-effects save DC is based on Wisdom, so you may find you don't get mileage out of things like Stunning Strike if you go low WIS.