You may be correct that it targets better saves, but is that enough to justify it as a subclasses defining feature? Before WM, it did indeed. But now the differences are so small it doesn’t feel appropriate as the subclasses 3rd level feature.
"WM exists" is irrelevant for a class that doesn't get it without a feat*, and even with that feat, only gets one, for which Nick would be a far better choice for them than Topple anyway.
*Or multiclass, which has tradeoffs of its own.
A 1 level dip into Fighter is now basically mandatory for Monks, there is debate about when you should take it, but +2 damage on each main Action attack from Dueling + WM is just too good to pass up.
I think I’ve used this example before but if 1DD added Rage to every martial with the exception of the bonus rage damage would that feature on barbarian ( with the rage damage) still make it a satisfying standalone 1st level feature?
Maybe you think it does. But I don’t. Freeing up OHT from FoB would be a step in the right direction
If WM granted Addle and targeted the same saving throws as OHT I'd agree with you, but it doesn't, so I don't. The damage difference from Martial Arts is not the only difference between WM and OHT.
Ok, you mean the mod's comment in another thread, He was theory crafting, I have tested it. You can do the same thing he suggested with an
elements monk with grapple and mastery. or fighter 1 elements monk
No, you can't do the same thing. Neither of those get Addle or Fleet Step. As soon as you're up against a monster with 10ft reach, the Elements' range is no longer a differentiator, and to get themselves and an ally out of danger, unlike the Open Hand they need to hope their push lands and either give up their flurry or have the ally use their own movement to get out, which only works if the ally's turn comes up before the monster's. Against a monster with 20ft reach or more, like some dragons' tail attacks, even if the push lands it won't matter.
As you mentioned, Elements has other strengths that Open Hand doesn't, such as being able to pull enemies and fly/swim. I'm not saying Open Hand is better or worse - I'm saying there are viable builds for both as currently presented. They're both "cutting it."
I think I’ve used this example before but if 1DD added Rage to every martial with the exception of the bonus rage damage would that feature on barbarian ( with the rage damage) still make it a satisfying standalone 1st level feature?
Maybe you think it does. But I don’t. Freeing up OHT from FoB would be a step in the right direction
If WM granted Addle and targeted the same saving throws as OHT I'd agree with you, but it doesn't, so I don't. The damage difference from Martial Arts is not the only difference between WM and OHT.
Ok, you mean the mod's comment in another thread, He was theory crafting, I have tested it. You can do the same thing he suggested with an
elements monk with grapple and mastery. or fighter 1 elements monk
No, you can't do the same thing. Neither of those get Addle or Fleet Step. As soon as you're up against a monster with 10ft reach, the Elements' range is no longer a differentiator, and to get themselves and an ally out of danger, unlike the Open Hand they need to hope their push lands and either give up their flurry or have the ally use their own movement to get out, which only works if the ally's turn comes up before the monster's. Against a monster with 20ft reach or more, like some dragons' tail attacks, even if the push lands it won't matter.
As you mentioned, Elements has other strengths that Open Hand doesn't, such as being able to pull enemies and fly/swim. I'm not saying Open Hand is better or worse - I'm saying there are viable builds for both as currently presented. They're both "cutting it."
Then don't. I plan to. I find the constant WM comparisons that ignore the multiple material differences between WM and OHT to be disingenuous.
Yes, OHT has advantages over WM and I, and others, are not arguing that point. And I find it disingenuous that you seem ignore that those slight advantages do not make for a good 3rd level feature, especially since it’s 6th level feature isn’t that great. OHT was a defining feature of Way of the Open Hand. Now it is just slightly above par than all the martials, and a cleric subclass, get. How is that still considered a subclass defining feature when so many other classes can do very similar things, for free, on all of their attacks?
The argument isn’t that WM=OHT it’s that the differences between the two are too small to justify OHT being a subclass defining feature.
And I find it disingenuous that you seem ignore that those slight advantages do not make for a good 3rd level feature, especially since it’s 6th level feature isn’t that great. OHT was a defining feature of Way of the Open Hand. Now it is just slightly above par than all the martials, and a cleric subclass, get. How is that still considered a subclass defining feature when so many other classes can do very similar things, for free, on all of their attacks?
The argument isn’t that WM=OHT it’s that the differences between the two are too small to justify OHT being a subclass defining feature.
I'm not ignoring your point of view, I'm disagreeing with it. I'm allowed to have my opinion just like you're allowed to have yours, and my opinion is that OHT is fine even in a post-WM world.
If they decided to buff it slightly I wouldn't be upset by that, but I think the proposals given so far like tacking Silvery Barbs or Heighten Spell onto it are overkill.
And I find it disingenuous that you seem ignore that those slight advantages do not make for a good 3rd level feature, especially since it’s 6th level feature isn’t that great. OHT was a defining feature of Way of the Open Hand. Now it is just slightly above par than all the martials, and a cleric subclass, get. How is that still considered a subclass defining feature when so many other classes can do very similar things, for free, on all of their attacks?
The argument isn’t that WM=OHT it’s that the differences between the two are too small to justify OHT being a subclass defining feature.
I'm not ignoring your point of view, I'm disagreeing with it. I'm allowed to have my opinion just like you're allowed to have yours, and my opinion is that OHT is fine even in a post-WM world.
If they decided to buff it slightly I wouldn't be upset by that, but I think the proposals given so far like tacking Silvery Barbs or Heighten Spell onto it are overkill.
Fair enough.
I believe I put in my survey that I feel OHT could use a boost, keep Addle, and maybe something unique to replace Push/Topple, or allow unarmed strikes grapple/shove options to be used without losing damage (pick two of the three options), or even decoupling it from FoB so it can be used at any time on unarmed strikes and not rely on DP cost (FoB).
And I find it disingenuous that you seem ignore that those slight advantages do not make for a good 3rd level feature, especially since it’s 6th level feature isn’t that great. OHT was a defining feature of Way of the Open Hand. Now it is just slightly above par than all the martials, and a cleric subclass, get. How is that still considered a subclass defining feature when so many other classes can do very similar things, for free, on all of their attacks?
The argument isn’t that WM=OHT it’s that the differences between the two are too small to justify OHT being a subclass defining feature.
I'm not ignoring your point of view, I'm disagreeing with it. I'm allowed to have my opinion just like you're allowed to have yours, and my opinion is that OHT is fine even in a post-WM world.
If they decided to buff it slightly I wouldn't be upset by that, but I think the proposals given so far like tacking Silvery Barbs or Heighten Spell onto it are overkill.
dis·in·gen·u·ous
/ˌdisənˈjenyəwəs/
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
You are doing more than just disagreeing when you stated our opinions were disingenuous. As Thri stated you were being disingenuous when you ignored the fact that we have made valid arguments as to why we believe OHT is bad. You haven’t even attempted counter a single argument. What’s funny is that everything that OHT has that makes it better than WM is washed away by the fact that OHT is very limited at early levels. Since it only works with FoB you can only use it 2 rounds at level 2. WM is always on. In a world were WM exist, OTH is trash (just my opinion), and my evidence for it OHT being trash was the removal of WM from Monks.
You are doing more than just disagreeing when you stated our opinions were disingenuous. As Thri stated you were being disingenuous when you ignored the fact that we have made valid arguments as to why we believe OHT is bad. You haven’t even attempted counter a single argument.
Speaking of disingenuous...
I pointed out that OHT targets different (and statistically, superior) saves than WM does.
I pointed out that WM Push is strictly inferior to OHT Push, and WM has no analogue to Addle.
I pointed out that WM is not native to the monk and thus requires build resources to obtain that have an opportunity cost, such as delaying monk features or feats.
I pointed out that WM Topple and WM Push are linked to specific weapons that either the monk isn't proficient with (costing build resources again) or deal inferior to a monk's martial arts die.
I pointed out that even if the Fighter dip is going to be as ubiquitous as you believe, an OH monk has better things to spend the WM it gives you on than Push and Topple since they can do those things themselves.
I pointed out that even if you do spend the build resources to pick up WM Push and WM Topple, you can still benefit from OHT Push and Topple since those apply to your bonus action attacks rather than your main action ones, so the OH Monk is still adding value.
You are doing more than just disagreeing when you stated our opinions were disingenuous. As Thri stated you were being disingenuous when you ignored the fact that we have made valid arguments as to why we believe OHT is bad. You haven’t even attempted counter a single argument.
Speaking of disingenuous...
I pointed out that OHT targets different (and statistically, superior) saves than WM does.
I pointed out that WM Push is strictly inferior to OHT Push, and WM has no analogue to Addle.
I pointed out that WM is not native to the monk and thus requires build resources to obtain that have an opportunity cost, such as delaying monk features or feats.
I pointed out that WM Topple and WM Push are linked to specific weapons that either the monk isn't proficient with (costing build resources again) or deal inferior to a monk's martial arts die.
I pointed out that even if the Fighter dip is going to be as ubiquitous as you believe, an OH monk has better things to spend the WM it gives you on than Push and Topple since they can do those things themselves.
I pointed out that even if you do spend the build resources to pick up WM Push and WM Topple, you can still benefit from OHT Push and Topple since those apply to your bonus action attacks rather than your main action ones, so the OH Monk is still adding value.
That's six. Enough "counter attempts" for you?
Nope because you don’t actually have 6 counter attempts to my argument. You grouped everyone who disagreed with you and called us all disingenuous without actually looking at our specific arguments. Mind you the disingenuous statement was in direct reply to my comments, so of the group I was specifically included and now your six counters are not in relation to my specific arguments. So yeah it still comes off disingenuous. But I’ll specifically counter your six.
You pointed out that OHT targets different (and statistically, superior) saves than WM does. But can OHT can only be used when you expend ki to use FoB so it’s limited. So compared to other classes using WM to topple or push they get to do it every attack for free, so statistical superiority is out the window.
You pointed out that WM Push is strictly inferior to OHT Push, and WM has no analogue to Addle. But OHT is still limited, Push distances mattering are table dependent, and addle is niche.
You pointed out that WM is not native to the monk and thus requires build resources to obtain that have an opportunity cost, such as delaying monk features or feats. But my main argument was WM was seemingly only removed from monk to make OHT appear useful and any other Monk subclass with free WM outshines OHT monk with free WM.
You pointed out that WM Topple and WM Push are linked to specific weapons that either the monk isn't proficient with (costing build resources again) or deal inferior to a monk's martial arts die. But I’m pretty sure topple is on the quarterstaff which beats monk MA die in damage early game is equal to it through most levels people normally play. Also Monk weapons were returned in the last UA. At one point I argued that the return of Monk weapons was a fair trade for the loss of WM but it really isn’t.
You pointed out that even if the Fighter dip is going to be as ubiquitous as you believe, an OH monk has better things to spend the WM it gives you on than Push and Topple since they can do those things themselves. But the fighter dip wasn’t my argument. But I’m pretty sure the people who made that argument were saying every other monk can do the thing that makes the Way of Open Hand “special” with a one level fighter dip. But again not my specific argument so I can’t really defend it.
You pointed out that even if you do spend the build resources to pick up WM Push and WM Topple, you can still benefit from OHT Push and Topple since those apply to your bonus action attacks rather than your main action ones, so the OH Monk is still adding value. But that value is less for the Open Hand monk which is seemingly why they removed WM from the monk base to attempt to disguise this flaw.
While I responded to all 6 of your counter arguments, I Bolded the ones that actually apply to my argument.
My argument is the OHT is trash in a game were so many classes and subclasses get WM. OTH is not special by comparison. Just allowing it to work for any unarmed strike would improve it to the point were your 1 and 2 counter arguments might actually mean something.
You are doing more than just disagreeing when you stated our opinions were disingenuous. As Thri stated you were being disingenuous when you ignored the fact that we have made valid arguments as to why we believe OHT is bad. You haven’t even attempted counter a single argument.
Speaking of disingenuous...
I pointed out that OHT targets different (and statistically, superior) saves than WM does.
I pointed out that WM Push is strictly inferior to OHT Push, and WM has no analogue to Addle.
I pointed out that WM is not native to the monk and thus requires build resources to obtain that have an opportunity cost, such as delaying monk features or feats.
I pointed out that WM Topple and WM Push are linked to specific weapons that either the monk isn't proficient with (costing build resources again) or deal inferior to a monk's martial arts die.
I pointed out that even if the Fighter dip is going to be as ubiquitous as you believe, an OH monk has better things to spend the WM it gives you on than Push and Topple since they can do those things themselves.
I pointed out that even if you do spend the build resources to pick up WM Push and WM Topple, you can still benefit from OHT Push and Topple since those apply to your bonus action attacks rather than your main action ones, so the OH Monk is still adding value.
That's six. Enough "counter attempts" for you?
1. this is overstated, OHT push doesnt target a superior save, WM push has no save. Correct attribution is Topple targets a better save, not all OHT riders
2. is incorrect, its not strictly inferior. WM push works on every attack(no save), and on average you will push 20 feet with two attacks instead of 15 with a strength save(50% of the time you will fail). It also works on reaction attacks, which FOB does not. It also doesnt require a resource which you likely won't want to use every round until like level 8+. Push from monk has one plus, it works on huge+monsters. At best you can claim they have different usecases, There is no way you can truthfully claim it is strictly an improvement. I think given a choice most players would choose WM push over OH push, but I guess some one could claim the most important thing is to use it on huge targets, I call bullshit because 89% of monsters are large or smaller, and in that case wm push is objectively better, but subjectively, someone might like the huge+ benefit.
3. Thing here, is every martial gets MA, Monk got MA until last UA. So for most people, its pretty clear they took WM away from monk, to give it back with subclass features, and in the case of OHT, 2/3 compare poorly with the WM options. It is true that monk no longer gets them, and OHT now gets a mostly inferior version, most people just don't find that acceptable, considering OHT was the original martial mastery subclass, and now its the inferior martial mastery subclass.
4 is incorrect. staff has topple, and two handed club has push which are now monk weapons. both are simple weapons. that means both deal the same damage as UA attacks.
5 and 6. the problem is, other subclasses/fighter1 getting 3 good masteries instead of two (addle is not good for a monk, few would choose it over vex/nick/wmpush) puts them ahead of OH, because the value of new masteries goes down the more you have. (choose highly desired first) Especially since monk has access to less masteries. +2 masteries is not considered a valuable level 3 subclass feature. Look at brawler, they had 2 level 3 subfeatures, one of them was access to 6 WM and added 2/3 weapon properties. So then If you MC fighter, whats the value of 3 masteries, but only for FOB?
1/4th of brawler's level 3 feature? (using brawler as an example of how valuable extra masteries are as a lvl 3 subclass feature) versus actually taking a more powerful subclass, like shadow/elements/mercy. And if they ever fix the other subclasses, they will probably be on par with those 3.
OH is probably going to end up the trap option if nothing changes.
Many will select it because its thematically very monkish (just martial arts techniques) but in actuality its an inferior version of monk/fighter1. Unless you are playing in the 17-20 range OH monk doesnt offer enough to stand out.
Since OHT attacks use a resource, only work with FOB, are level 3, part of a subclass, doesnt work on reaction attacks, you have less options and customizability, these riders should be objectively better than lvl 1 subfeature every other martial has, or provide a very unique competitive benefit. Only topple meets that standard.
OHT can only be used when you spend ki to FoB... you mean that thing most monks will be doing every round anyway? How much more often do you really think another martial will be using WM than a monk will be flurrying? What do your monks even do round to round?
It's a 50% increase in push distance, of course that matters.
They didn't remove WM from monk to benefit one subclass. They removed it because they expect most monks to be using unarmed strikes, which don't get any.
If you can get them to fail the Con save for WM Topple, you can get them to fail Stunning Strike instead. It's a far superior way to get advantage, especially since stun doesn't debuff your ranged allies' attacks like prone does. You can also grapple more easily since you won't have a staff in your hands, yet another way to get advantage without interfering with your ranged.
Foregone defense noted.
See #3.
I responded to all six of your responses, so now you can feel free to respond to all of my responses to your responses, and we can go round and round until the book gets printed. Or actually, I have a better idea, let's agree to disagree about Open Hand like I was trying to do before you felt the need to sally back in here and quote the dictionary at me. Here, I'll start.
You pointed out that WM Push is strictly inferior to OHT Push, and WM has no analogue to Addle. But OHT is still limited, Push distances mattering are table dependent, and addle is niche.
Addle is not significantly more niche than Push or Topple. All three of them are niche.
Push is more often a problem for your party than a benefit, as it breaks grapples, can push the enemy out of a flanking position, move the enemy out of reach of an ally who might want to AoO them, or move an enemy so the other martials can't get into melee with them. The utility of push is extremely dependent on the party composition, the terrain, and the initiative order.
Topple is just as often a detriment to the party than a benefit, as it gives DA to ranged attacks which prevents focus-fire, and may leave the enemy in a tangle of martials preventing casters from using AoEs effectively without dealing a lot of friendly fire. Again utility is extremely dependent on party composition and initiative order.
Addle is the "safe" option - guaranteed to work if you absolutely need to get out of there to stay alive, without hindering any of your allies.
When I played an OH monk I used Topple and Addle about equally, and Push even less often.
2. is incorrect, its not strictly inferior. WM push works on every attack(no save), and on average you will push 20 feet with two attacks instead of 15 with a strength save(50% of the time you will fail). It also works on reaction attacks, which FOB does not. It also doesnt require a resource which you likely won't want to use every round until like level 8+. Push from monk has one plus, it works on huge+monsters. At best you can claim they have different usecases, There is no way you can truthfully claim it is strictly an improvement. I think given a choice most players would choose WM push over OH push, but I guess some one could claim the most important thing is to use it on huge targets, I call bullshit because 89% of monsters are large or smaller, and in that case wm push is objectively better, but subjectively, someone might like the huge+ benefit.
Hitting with an attack is not guaranteed, there is only a 65% chance to hit on average so Push on average will push 13 ft, on most turns it will only push 10 ft. OHT push also works on every FoB attack so on average will push 9.75 ft, and on most turns it will push 15 ft. [At level 5, at level 11 OHT Push = 14 ft on average). So they are approximately equal. Though Push really isn't as useful as people think it is. I've played an OH monk, a spellcaster with Telekinetic, and a Paladin with Thunderous Smite, and pushing the enemy actually made a difference in play only a handful of times. Meanwhile I played with a sorlock with Repelling Blast and at least 50% of the time the repelling effect was a detriment to the party rather than a benefit.
PS: Not a single polearm has Topple, so only high level Fighters will be able to use Push with an AoO and it actually be potentially useful.
OHT can only be used when you spend ki to FoB... you mean that thing most monks will be doing every round anyway? How much more often do you really think another martial will be using WM than a monk will be flurrying? What do your monks even do round to round?
It's a 50% increase in push distance, of course that matters.
They didn't remove WM from monk to benefit one subclass. They removed it because they expect most monks to be using unarmed strikes, which don't get any.
If you can get them to fail the Con save for WM Topple, you can get them to fail Stunning Strike instead. It's a far superior way to get advantage, especially since stun doesn't debuff your ranged allies' attacks like prone does. You can also grapple more easily since you won't have a staff in your hands, yet another way to get advantage without interfering with your ranged.
Foregone defense noted.
See #3.
I responded to all six of your responses, so now you can feel free to respond to all of my responses to your responses, and we can go round and round until the book gets printed. Or actually, I have a better idea, let's agree to disagree about Open Hand like I was trying to do before you felt the need to sally back in here and quote the dictionary at me. Here, I'll start.
You are being disingenuous again. Monks have limited ki and using FoB is a cost compared to a zero cost WM. Since OHT doesn’t come online until level 3 WM will have been used a ton more. A level 5 character with WM will use it every round, while a OH Monk only has 5 ki which it has to split between FoB and SS attempts. So any fight that goes over 3 rounds favors WM.
Push distance only matters if there is something to push them into or away from. In many combats it means nothing since the end goal is to make them reach zero hp. Topple helps do that by giving you advantage. Push does not necessarily do that unless there are hazards.
You are free to believe that, but that doesn’t make sense because gave monks weapon proficiencies and allow monks to use MA die for weapons.
Im not sure what your argument is in this case considering other monk subclasses have SS and other methods of gaining advantage as well.
I’m not sure what you mean by this either? Do you believe addle is some defensive super ability? It’s not.
See #3
Also telling someone to agree to disagree is a method to make yourself feel like you have gained some victory. You haven’t. In the end you haven’t persuaded anyone or added any inarguable truths to the conversation. I felt the need to sally back on here because you falsely accused me of being disingenuous when you yourself are by definition being exactly that. I also pointed out that it is okay for everyone to have different opinions and not every subclass has to be something I would want to play. There are plenty of other subclasses that I would play and it’s not like most would have the opportunity to play all subclasses in the game anyway. Again you gave me a reason to sally back when you accused me of being disingenuous.
OHT can only be used when you spend ki to FoB... you mean that thing most monks will be doing every round anyway? How much more often do you really think another martial will be using WM than a monk will be flurrying? What do your monks even do round to round?
It's a 50% increase in push distance, of course that matters.
They didn't remove WM from monk to benefit one subclass. They removed it because they expect most monks to be using unarmed strikes, which don't get any.
If you can get them to fail the Con save for WM Topple, you can get them to fail Stunning Strike instead. It's a far superior way to get advantage, especially since stun doesn't debuff your ranged allies' attacks like prone does. You can also grapple more easily since you won't have a staff in your hands, yet another way to get advantage without interfering with your ranged.
Foregone defense noted.
See #3.
I responded to all six of your responses, so now you can feel free to respond to all of my responses to your responses, and we can go round and round until the book gets printed. Or actually, I have a better idea, let's agree to disagree about Open Hand like I was trying to do before you felt the need to sally back in here and quote the dictionary at me. Here, I'll start.
1. Have you actually playtested monk? you wont actually be able to use FOB every round, before 4, you will run out of ki, after 4 you will sometimes need to use stun or conserve. Its not really until after 9 or 10 that you won't have to make choices each round that effect how often you can FOB.(and thats only if they SR after every fight) Many campaigns are over or ending by this point.
2. Its a 50% increase in push distance that only works 50% of the time, versus something that works 100% of the time. If you want to push something 15 feet, it will on average require two attacks. two wmpush = 20 feet.
"If you hit a creature with this weapon, you can push the creature up to 10 feet straight away from yourself if it is Large or smaller" no save.
By your reasoning, a 50% chance to do d12 is better than a 100% chance to do d8. This is just incorrect. Not only that, but a more reliable push is better than addle because it creates distance while also removing AoO. And it can be used with reactions to stop enemies attacks. Its numerically and tactically inferior.
3. In the interview Crawford said they removed it because monk already has on hit effects, and monks have always had and used monk weapons. If the goal was simply because monk isn't supposed to use weapons, the answer would be to all monks masteries for unarmed attacks. They didn't do that because some monk subclasses are defined by the on hit effects they provide. Which is ok, but then those on hit effects need to be better or usefully unique compared to lvl 1 mastery. Otherwise, they just relatively nerfed those subclasses.
4. stunning strike and WM topple only are not in competition. WM topple doesnt cost Ki, and you can stunning strike with monk weapons. (you can and should do both) Stunning strike and OHT topple are competing for Ki resources. staff is versatile and uses one hand, that doesn't prevent grappling, you can also sheathe a weapon every time you make an attack via the attack action. This is not an issue.
Its a real problem that a one lvl class dip is superior/similar to being lvl6 in a subclass with the same general playstyle. That means the subclass needs work imo.
You pointed out that WM Push is strictly inferior to OHT Push, and WM has no analogue to Addle. But OHT is still limited, Push distances mattering are table dependent, and addle is niche.
Addle is not significantly more niche than Push or Topple. All three of them are niche.
Push is more often a problem for your party than a benefit, as it breaks grapples, can push the enemy out of a flanking position, move the enemy out of reach of an ally who might want to AoO them, or move an enemy so the other martials can't get into melee with them. The utility of push is extremely dependent on the party composition, the terrain, and the initiative order.
Topple is just as often a detriment to the party than a benefit, as it gives DA to ranged attacks which prevents focus-fire, and may leave the enemy in a tangle of martials preventing casters from using AoEs effectively without dealing a lot of friendly fire. Again utility is extremely dependent on party composition and initiative order.
Addle is the "safe" option - guaranteed to work if you absolutely need to get out of there to stay alive, without hindering any of your allies.
When I played an OH monk I used Topple and Addle about equally, and Push even less often.
We already talked about this, but short version is 2024 monk in has less need for Addle. And also, if your group doesnt need prone or push often, there is no good reason to be an OH monk. You don't get DPR till 17, your level 6 is unneeded. Your level 11 on its own can't justify picking the sub. It would be better to select almost any other subclass in the case that you aren't using prone or push 80% of the time when you FOB.
unless you are playing 17-20 , OHT is the core of OH subclass. if thats only useful to you 40% of the time, then the subclass probably needs work, or you need to team composition/strategy that can make strong use of your prone or push. (TBH its probably going to be prone)
we already discussed this, so I know you don't agree, but imo, with the current OH monk. if you aren't either in a melee heavy team, where you are 'tanking' or in a team where you can solo enemies making full use of grapple/prone, Your OH monk is going to be a waste of space (versus any other subclass choice) And really, if you are doing the latter, shadow and elements are probably just as good if not better.
Also telling someone to agree to disagree is a method to make yourself feel like you have gained some victory. You haven’t.
No, it means I know we're never going to see eye to eye on this issue and I'm moving on with my life. The only one hung up on "victory" seems to be you.
Hadn’t gone through all the responses since my last but wanted to point out that Quarterstaff has topple and Greatclub (now a monk weapon) has push so there is no outside resource cost to get those WM.(if monks still had WM)
And to say that most monks will be using Unarmed Strikes may vary on build and magic weapon availability. so I don’t see that as a good counter argument
Edit: I see Gwar1 beat me to it above in point 4 of one of their posts
We already talked about this, but short version is 2024 monk in has less need for Addle. And also, if your group doesnt need prone or push often, there is no good reason to be an OH monk. You don't get DPR till 17, your level 6 is unneeded. Your level 11 on its own can't justify picking the sub. It would be better to select almost any other subclass in the case that you aren't using prone or push 80% of the time when you FOB.
Wholeness of Body definitely needs a complete rework, but OHT is completely in line with other 3rd level Monk subclass abilities.
Way of Shadow's 3rd level ability lets you sacrifice 2 attacks for Darkness that at will hinder your allies as much as your enemies and that you will probably lose concentration on within a couple of rounds. People think they will be using it all combat every combat, but honestly, unless you are in a combat that will last at least 4 rounds and there is lots of space for you to move around, it probably isn't worth it. Plus the WM Vex gives much of the same benefit.
Way of Elements mainly just gives you Reach and Push with your unarmed strikes again at the cost of 2 unarmed strikes, with the extremely niche opportunity to take advantage of damage vulnerabilities or resistances prior to level 6.
None of the Monk 3rd level subclass abilities are particularly strong, which is why OHT is mostly fine - though I agree it should apply to all your attacks not just your FoB. The big problem with OH is Wholeness of Body.
We already talked about this, but short version is 2024 monk in has less need for Addle. And also, if your group doesnt need prone or push often, there is no good reason to be an OH monk. You don't get DPR till 17, your level 6 is unneeded. Your level 11 on its own can't justify picking the sub. It would be better to select almost any other subclass in the case that you aren't using prone or push 80% of the time when you FOB.
Wholeness of Body definitely needs a complete rework, but OHT is completely in line with other 3rd level Monk subclass abilities.
Way of Shadow's 3rd level ability lets you sacrifice 2 attacks for Darkness that at will hinder your allies as much as your enemies and that you will probably lose concentration on within a couple of rounds. People think they will be using it all combat every combat, but honestly, unless you are in a combat that will last at least 4 rounds and there is lots of space for you to move around, it probably isn't worth it. Plus the WM Vex gives much of the same benefit.
Way of Elements mainly just gives you Reach and Push with your unarmed strikes again at the cost of 2 unarmed strikes, with the extremely niche opportunity to take advantage of damage vulnerabilities or resistances prior to level 6.
None of the Monk 3rd level subclass abilities are particularly strong, which is why OHT is mostly fine - though I agree it should apply to all your attacks not just your FoB. The big problem with OH is Wholeness of Body.
first off, a big difference between shadow and elements and OHT, is that the level 3 gives new and unique abilities that you can't easily get elsewhere. AND the level 3 synergizes with later features making the level 3 more effective as your subclass increases.
for elements, the level 3 synerigizes with the level 6 (setting up AOE targets) the level 11 (flight + pull, and 15 foot reach making melee attackers fail against you, and the level 17, pulling enemies into your path. This is a core feature that creates a whole playstyle for the class that creates unique gameplay, which keeps adding use cases as you level.
likewise, for shadow, the ability to create your darkness where you want sets up the level 6 and the 17, and makes them more usable. (I personally would improve the 11 or the 6 so they weren't effecting the same feature, but its ok). And having darkness for 1 ki, that you can easily move around each turn and see inside creates a unique playstyle for monk.
OH doesnt achieve this until like 17, because OHT is not unique, gameplay changing, or comparitively powerful for a martial. Give me an example of another level 3 subclass feature/s in the 2024 phb. that is easily replicated in use/power by A single level 1 subfeature. I don't think there is one.
the cost of two unarmed attacks? how so? it costs 1ki and doesnt require an action, you can do it at the start of your turn?
way of elements gives you 15 foot reach (not just 10 feet), it gives you elemental attacks(this matters at 3-5) and it gives you pull AND push on all unarmed attacks. It lasts 10 minutes, so often lasts more than one encounter. This allows you to set up AOE attacks, grapple more effectively, and control the battlefield positioning way better.
and elementalism cantrip, which can sculpt objects out of elements, among other out of combat uses.
Re Shadow lvl 3. Its not a playstyle for everyone, but its powerful.
it gives or extends darkvision, gives minor illusion cantrip, and gives controllable low resource cost darkness with devil sight for that darkness. Cant easily obtain that elsewhere, and it totally changes the way you play the class.
whether you hinder your allies depends on your tactical skill, and your group.
you can place its center at any point within range, not just any point you can see. this means space isnt that relevant, and you can move it freely every round.
you can precast darkness if you are aware of a likely fight, it lasts 10 minutes.
you get advantage and they get disadvantage, and you create an area where they can't target allies with many spells, or AoO. You basically can create cover for your allies. (they can move in and out of it, to their advantage)
Vex for monk, at most will effect two hits out 4-6. if you miss, less than 2. And unless you MC, thats vex over nick. (if you got the feat)
blinded monsters give you advantage on hitting them, monsters you can't see give you disadvantage, these cancel out for ranged attacks. So basically for your allies outside the range, only spells that need sight are a problem. So leave them some guys to target, or place your darkness so parts of their body are showing. Or target selected enemies. You don't even need to put the enemies in darkness to benefit, just being heavily obscurred gives you advantage on attacks and your enemy disadvantage, so you don't even need to block allies vision if you don't want to.
You rarely lose concentration, between deflect attacks and disadvantage. Then you have to fail a save. By the time you lose the effect, it has likely gave you a lot of defense, offense and tactical advantage. I've tested shadow a couple times, its highly effective.
A 1 level dip into Fighter is now basically mandatory for Monks, there is debate about when you should take it, but +2 damage on each main Action attack from Dueling + WM is just too good to pass up.
If WM granted Addle and targeted the same saving throws as OHT I'd agree with you, but it doesn't, so I don't. The damage difference from Martial Arts is not the only difference between WM and OHT.
No, you can't do the same thing. Neither of those get Addle or Fleet Step. As soon as you're up against a monster with 10ft reach, the Elements' range is no longer a differentiator, and to get themselves and an ally out of danger, unlike the Open Hand they need to hope their push lands and either give up their flurry or have the ally use their own movement to get out, which only works if the ally's turn comes up before the monster's. Against a monster with 20ft reach or more, like some dragons' tail attacks, even if the push lands it won't matter.
As you mentioned, Elements has other strengths that Open Hand doesn't, such as being able to pull enemies and fly/swim. I'm not saying Open Hand is better or worse - I'm saying there are viable builds for both as currently presented. They're both "cutting it."
Then don't. I plan to. I find the constant WM comparisons that ignore the multiple material differences between WM and OHT to be disingenuous.
Yes, OHT has advantages over WM and I, and others, are not arguing that point. And I find it disingenuous that you seem ignore that those slight advantages do not make for a good 3rd level feature, especially since it’s 6th level feature isn’t that great. OHT was a defining feature of Way of the Open Hand. Now it is just slightly above par than all the martials, and a cleric subclass, get. How is that still considered a subclass defining feature when so many other classes can do very similar things, for free, on all of their attacks?
The argument isn’t that WM=OHT it’s that the differences between the two are too small to justify OHT being a subclass defining feature.
I'm not ignoring your point of view, I'm disagreeing with it. I'm allowed to have my opinion just like you're allowed to have yours, and my opinion is that OHT is fine even in a post-WM world.
If they decided to buff it slightly I wouldn't be upset by that, but I think the proposals given so far like tacking Silvery Barbs or Heighten Spell onto it are overkill.
Fair enough.
I believe I put in my survey that I feel OHT could use a boost, keep Addle, and maybe something unique to replace Push/Topple, or allow unarmed strikes grapple/shove options to be used without losing damage (pick two of the three options), or even decoupling it from FoB so it can be used at any time on unarmed strikes and not rely on DP cost (FoB).
I'd be fine with OHT being usable with Martial Arts in addition to Flurry.
You are doing more than just disagreeing when you stated our opinions were disingenuous. As Thri stated you were being disingenuous when you ignored the fact that we have made valid arguments as to why we believe OHT is bad. You haven’t even attempted counter a single argument. What’s funny is that everything that OHT has that makes it better than WM is washed away by the fact that OHT is very limited at early levels. Since it only works with FoB you can only use it 2 rounds at level 2. WM is always on. In a world were WM exist, OTH is trash (just my opinion), and my evidence for it OHT being trash was the removal of WM from Monks.
Speaking of disingenuous...
That's six. Enough "counter attempts" for you?
Nope because you don’t actually have 6 counter attempts to my argument. You grouped everyone who disagreed with you and called us all disingenuous without actually looking at our specific arguments. Mind you the disingenuous statement was in direct reply to my comments, so of the group I was specifically included and now your six counters are not in relation to my specific arguments. So yeah it still comes off disingenuous. But I’ll specifically counter your six.
While I responded to all 6 of your counter arguments, I Bolded the ones that actually apply to my argument.
My argument is the OHT is trash in a game were so many classes and subclasses get WM. OTH is not special by comparison. Just allowing it to work for any unarmed strike would improve it to the point were your 1 and 2 counter arguments might actually mean something.
1. this is overstated, OHT push doesnt target a superior save, WM push has no save. Correct attribution is Topple targets a better save, not all OHT riders
2. is incorrect, its not strictly inferior. WM push works on every attack(no save), and on average you will push 20 feet with two attacks instead of 15 with a strength save(50% of the time you will fail). It also works on reaction attacks, which FOB does not. It also doesnt require a resource which you likely won't want to use every round until like level 8+. Push from monk has one plus, it works on huge+monsters. At best you can claim they have different usecases, There is no way you can truthfully claim it is strictly an improvement. I think given a choice most players would choose WM push over OH push, but I guess some one could claim the most important thing is to use it on huge targets, I call bullshit because 89% of monsters are large or smaller, and in that case wm push is objectively better, but subjectively, someone might like the huge+ benefit.
3. Thing here, is every martial gets MA, Monk got MA until last UA. So for most people, its pretty clear they took WM away from monk, to give it back with subclass features, and in the case of OHT, 2/3 compare poorly with the WM options. It is true that monk no longer gets them, and OHT now gets a mostly inferior version, most people just don't find that acceptable, considering OHT was the original martial mastery subclass, and now its the inferior martial mastery subclass.
4 is incorrect. staff has topple, and two handed club has push which are now monk weapons. both are simple weapons. that means both deal the same damage as UA attacks.
5 and 6. the problem is, other subclasses/fighter1 getting 3 good masteries instead of two (addle is not good for a monk, few would choose it over vex/nick/wmpush) puts them ahead of OH, because the value of new masteries goes down the more you have. (choose highly desired first) Especially since monk has access to less masteries. +2 masteries is not considered a valuable level 3 subclass feature. Look at brawler, they had 2 level 3 subfeatures, one of them was access to 6 WM and added 2/3 weapon properties. So then If you MC fighter, whats the value of 3 masteries, but only for FOB?
1/4th of brawler's level 3 feature? (using brawler as an example of how valuable extra masteries are as a lvl 3 subclass feature) versus actually taking a more powerful subclass, like shadow/elements/mercy. And if they ever fix the other subclasses, they will probably be on par with those 3.
OH is probably going to end up the trap option if nothing changes.
Many will select it because its thematically very monkish (just martial arts techniques) but in actuality its an inferior version of monk/fighter1. Unless you are playing in the 17-20 range OH monk doesnt offer enough to stand out.
Since OHT attacks use a resource, only work with FOB, are level 3, part of a subclass, doesnt work on reaction attacks, you have less options and customizability, these riders should be objectively better than lvl 1 subfeature every other martial has, or provide a very unique competitive benefit. Only topple meets that standard.
I responded to all six of your responses, so now you can feel free to respond to all of my responses to your responses, and we can go round and round until the book gets printed. Or actually, I have a better idea, let's agree to disagree about Open Hand like I was trying to do before you felt the need to sally back in here and quote the dictionary at me. Here, I'll start.
Addle is not significantly more niche than Push or Topple. All three of them are niche.
Push is more often a problem for your party than a benefit, as it breaks grapples, can push the enemy out of a flanking position, move the enemy out of reach of an ally who might want to AoO them, or move an enemy so the other martials can't get into melee with them. The utility of push is extremely dependent on the party composition, the terrain, and the initiative order.
Topple is just as often a detriment to the party than a benefit, as it gives DA to ranged attacks which prevents focus-fire, and may leave the enemy in a tangle of martials preventing casters from using AoEs effectively without dealing a lot of friendly fire. Again utility is extremely dependent on party composition and initiative order.
Addle is the "safe" option - guaranteed to work if you absolutely need to get out of there to stay alive, without hindering any of your allies.
When I played an OH monk I used Topple and Addle about equally, and Push even less often.
Hitting with an attack is not guaranteed, there is only a 65% chance to hit on average so Push on average will push 13 ft, on most turns it will only push 10 ft. OHT push also works on every FoB attack so on average will push 9.75 ft, and on most turns it will push 15 ft. [At level 5, at level 11 OHT Push = 14 ft on average). So they are approximately equal. Though Push really isn't as useful as people think it is. I've played an OH monk, a spellcaster with Telekinetic, and a Paladin with Thunderous Smite, and pushing the enemy actually made a difference in play only a handful of times. Meanwhile I played with a sorlock with Repelling Blast and at least 50% of the time the repelling effect was a detriment to the party rather than a benefit.
PS: Not a single polearm has Topple, so only high level Fighters will be able to use Push with an AoO and it actually be potentially useful.
Also telling someone to agree to disagree is a method to make yourself feel like you have gained some victory. You haven’t. In the end you haven’t persuaded anyone or added any inarguable truths to the conversation. I felt the need to sally back on here because you falsely accused me of being disingenuous when you yourself are by definition being exactly that. I also pointed out that it is okay for everyone to have different opinions and not every subclass has to be something I would want to play. There are plenty of other subclasses that I would play and it’s not like most would have the opportunity to play all subclasses in the game anyway. Again you gave me a reason to sally back when you accused me of being disingenuous.
1. Have you actually playtested monk? you wont actually be able to use FOB every round, before 4, you will run out of ki, after 4 you will sometimes need to use stun or conserve. Its not really until after 9 or 10 that you won't have to make choices each round that effect how often you can FOB.(and thats only if they SR after every fight) Many campaigns are over or ending by this point.
2. Its a 50% increase in push distance that only works 50% of the time, versus something that works 100% of the time. If you want to push something 15 feet, it will on average require two attacks. two wmpush = 20 feet.
"If you hit a creature with this weapon, you can push the creature up to 10 feet straight away from yourself if it is Large or smaller" no save.
By your reasoning, a 50% chance to do d12 is better than a 100% chance to do d8. This is just incorrect. Not only that, but a more reliable push is better than addle because it creates distance while also removing AoO. And it can be used with reactions to stop enemies attacks. Its numerically and tactically inferior.
3. In the interview Crawford said they removed it because monk already has on hit effects, and monks have always had and used monk weapons. If the goal was simply because monk isn't supposed to use weapons, the answer would be to all monks masteries for unarmed attacks. They didn't do that because some monk subclasses are defined by the on hit effects they provide. Which is ok, but then those on hit effects need to be better or usefully unique compared to lvl 1 mastery. Otherwise, they just relatively nerfed those subclasses.
4. stunning strike and WM topple only are not in competition. WM topple doesnt cost Ki, and you can stunning strike with monk weapons. (you can and should do both) Stunning strike and OHT topple are competing for Ki resources. staff is versatile and uses one hand, that doesn't prevent grappling, you can also sheathe a weapon every time you make an attack via the attack action. This is not an issue.
Its a real problem that a one lvl class dip is superior/similar to being lvl6 in a subclass with the same general playstyle. That means the subclass needs work imo.
We already talked about this, but short version is 2024 monk in has less need for Addle. And also, if your group doesnt need prone or push often, there is no good reason to be an OH monk. You don't get DPR till 17, your level 6 is unneeded. Your level 11 on its own can't justify picking the sub. It would be better to select almost any other subclass in the case that you aren't using prone or push 80% of the time when you FOB.
unless you are playing 17-20 , OHT is the core of OH subclass. if thats only useful to you 40% of the time, then the subclass probably needs work, or you need to team composition/strategy that can make strong use of your prone or push. (TBH its probably going to be prone)
we already discussed this, so I know you don't agree, but imo, with the current OH monk. if you aren't either in a melee heavy team, where you are 'tanking' or in a team where you can solo enemies making full use of grapple/prone, Your OH monk is going to be a waste of space (versus any other subclass choice) And really, if you are doing the latter, shadow and elements are probably just as good if not better.
No, it means I know we're never going to see eye to eye on this issue and I'm moving on with my life. The only one hung up on "victory" seems to be you.
Hadn’t gone through all the responses since my last but wanted to point out that Quarterstaff has topple and Greatclub (now a monk weapon) has push so there is no outside resource cost to get those WM.(if monks still had WM)
And to say that most monks will be using Unarmed Strikes may vary on build and magic weapon availability. so I don’t see that as a good counter argument
Edit: I see Gwar1 beat me to it above in point 4 of one of their posts
Wholeness of Body definitely needs a complete rework, but OHT is completely in line with other 3rd level Monk subclass abilities.
Way of Shadow's 3rd level ability lets you sacrifice 2 attacks for Darkness that at will hinder your allies as much as your enemies and that you will probably lose concentration on within a couple of rounds. People think they will be using it all combat every combat, but honestly, unless you are in a combat that will last at least 4 rounds and there is lots of space for you to move around, it probably isn't worth it. Plus the WM Vex gives much of the same benefit.
Way of Elements mainly just gives you Reach and Push with your unarmed strikes again at the cost of 2 unarmed strikes, with the extremely niche opportunity to take advantage of damage vulnerabilities or resistances prior to level 6.
None of the Monk 3rd level subclass abilities are particularly strong, which is why OHT is mostly fine - though I agree it should apply to all your attacks not just your FoB. The big problem with OH is Wholeness of Body.
first off, a big difference between shadow and elements and OHT, is that the level 3 gives new and unique abilities that you can't easily get elsewhere. AND the level 3 synergizes with later features making the level 3 more effective as your subclass increases.
for elements, the level 3 synerigizes with the level 6 (setting up AOE targets) the level 11 (flight + pull, and 15 foot reach making melee attackers fail against you, and the level 17, pulling enemies into your path. This is a core feature that creates a whole playstyle for the class that creates unique gameplay, which keeps adding use cases as you level.
likewise, for shadow, the ability to create your darkness where you want sets up the level 6 and the 17, and makes them more usable. (I personally would improve the 11 or the 6 so they weren't effecting the same feature, but its ok). And having darkness for 1 ki, that you can easily move around each turn and see inside creates a unique playstyle for monk.
OH doesnt achieve this until like 17, because OHT is not unique, gameplay changing, or comparitively powerful for a martial. Give me an example of another level 3 subclass feature/s in the 2024 phb. that is easily replicated in use/power by A single level 1 subfeature. I don't think there is one.
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H8iRpbGyNtM4 for reference.
Re elements lvl 3 on its own:
the cost of two unarmed attacks? how so? it costs 1ki and doesnt require an action, you can do it at the start of your turn?
way of elements gives you 15 foot reach (not just 10 feet), it gives you elemental attacks(this matters at 3-5) and it gives you pull AND push on all unarmed attacks. It lasts 10 minutes, so often lasts more than one encounter. This allows you to set up AOE attacks, grapple more effectively, and control the battlefield positioning way better.
and elementalism cantrip, which can sculpt objects out of elements, among other out of combat uses.
Re Shadow lvl 3. Its not a playstyle for everyone, but its powerful.
it gives or extends darkvision, gives minor illusion cantrip, and gives controllable low resource cost darkness with devil sight for that darkness. Cant easily obtain that elsewhere, and it totally changes the way you play the class.
whether you hinder your allies depends on your tactical skill, and your group.
you can place its center at any point within range, not just any point you can see. this means space isnt that relevant, and you can move it freely every round.
you can precast darkness if you are aware of a likely fight, it lasts 10 minutes.
you get advantage and they get disadvantage, and you create an area where they can't target allies with many spells, or AoO. You basically can create cover for your allies. (they can move in and out of it, to their advantage)
Vex for monk, at most will effect two hits out 4-6. if you miss, less than 2. And unless you MC, thats vex over nick. (if you got the feat)
blinded monsters give you advantage on hitting them, monsters you can't see give you disadvantage, these cancel out for ranged attacks. So basically for your allies outside the range, only spells that need sight are a problem. So leave them some guys to target, or place your darkness so parts of their body are showing. Or target selected enemies. You don't even need to put the enemies in darkness to benefit, just being heavily obscurred gives you advantage on attacks and your enemy disadvantage, so you don't even need to block allies vision if you don't want to.
You rarely lose concentration, between deflect attacks and disadvantage. Then you have to fail a save. By the time you lose the effect, it has likely gave you a lot of defense, offense and tactical advantage. I've tested shadow a couple times, its highly effective.