I am of the opinion that Soul Knife would be better suited as a Monk subclass. As such, I have created my first homebrew subclass! I understand it needs a lot of work, possibly even starting completely over. So please check out my subclass and help me improve it! Be as harsh as you are productive, so suggestions are appreciated, "This sucks"'s are not. Introducing the Mentalist!
Psion in my view is better suited as a monk subclass altogether if we are going with existing classes. Imagine the way of the four elements, but with the choices being all psionic spells or additional abilities. This to me seems like the easiest path to make a psion subclass that actually feels like a psion. Monk already have a lot of lore and backstory that sort of fit. Way of four elements is lame cuz it lacks enough choices or interesting choices, but imagine if simply you modified it to include all the psionic spells. This would be kind of cool in my mind and probably work without too much trouble.
I am of the opinion that Soul Knife would be better suited as a Monk subclass. As such, I have created my first homebrew subclass! I understand it needs a lot of work, possibly even starting completely over. So please check out my subclass and help me improve it! Be as harsh as you are productive, so suggestions are appreciated, "This sucks"'s are not. Introducing the Mentalist!
I disagree on the Soul Knife being better for Monks. The whole concept of psychic blades leads quite well into the "silent assassin" arch-type for a Rogue. Though I do agree that this iteration needs some work... mainly in the whole Psychic Enhancement front. it should jut be scrapped and turned into a new ability entirely. I'm a little tired of giving every psionic class telepathy, so maybe giving the Soul Knife a "psychic parry" or something that either increases one's AC by +1 depending on how many knives you have out, a baseline increase on Wisdom/Intelligence saving throws, OR (by hitting an enemy with one of your knives) you make them make a INT saving throw and if they fail they have disadvantage on saving throws of your choosing for a certain amount of time. At the moment that feature is the main thing holding it back... that and it should be able to imbue psychic energy into preexisting weapons instead of being pigeon holed into always having to make knives.
As for your Mentalist: Prescient Stratagem is hella OP. Being able to just force Disadvantage without a save or expending a resource is ridiculous. This should either be a thing that is limited by your INT mod or something along those lines. Aura sight is just a better version of what the Master Mind can do and kind of treads on it's toes. Now what I find interesting here is the Body Snatcher idea... basing a class on the trope of an assassin that uses someone else's body to do their dirty work is pretty cool and should be explored a bit. Maybe do a redo on this subclass but focus in on this concept? Call it the Puppeteer or something and have it entirely focused or misdirection and mind control? Some ideas:
-Switch Body Snatch to a lower level ability but you have to use the ability on an unconscious, willing, or even dead creature (though the wounds of death do not heal so you would have to conceal them).
-Sneak attack damage done by this class is entirely psychic, and if struck the creature must make an INT saving throw... if they fail their WIS/INT saving throws have a point deduction or disadvantage for a certain amount of time.
-Marked creatures open them up to a host of "Battle Maneuver"-esque abilities but for controlling enemies (stuff like "force the enemy to move their max distance, attack a creature at disadvantage, fall prone, ect).
If any of these subclasses should be for a different class it should be the Psychic Warrior as a Paladin Oath.
Why do you say that?
The capstone ability is very similar to a paladin's, and could easily be adjusted to the paladin. Augmented Defenses is great for protection based paladins, augmented strikes is great for paladins to gain an additional static damage every round, which is really good for the best nova class. Telekinetic Hand is great, would be useful for a half caster that normally does not get cantrips, and mage hand is always useful, especially when invisible. Strength of Mind is great, and feels like a paladin ability to lock down an enemy and move them around the battlefield. Telekinetic Bulwark is just a paladin aura, and can be very easily converted to a paladin ability. Agonizing Strikes would be extremely good for the already great nova class, giving a great boost for those times you get a critical hit and need to DESTROY someone.
I wish this fighter subclass was converted to a paladin subclass, and was made to use Charisma instead of Intelligence for their abilities.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
If it were charisma based though, then it wouldn't be Psionic. That's the entire point, power of the mind and all that. I think its fine to have a support defensive fighter archtype that is somewhat similar to a paladin, especially since it keys off of a different stat.
I am of the opinion that Soul Knife would be better suited as a Monk subclass. As such, I have created my first homebrew subclass! I understand it needs a lot of work, possibly even starting completely over. So please check out my subclass and help me improve it! Be as harsh as you are productive, so suggestions are appreciated, "This sucks"'s are not. Introducing the Mentalist!
The soul knife actually did start as a monk subclass. It was in the UA back in May 2018 but it didn’t make it through so they scrapped it and made it a rogue instead
The soul knife actually did start as a monk subclass. It was in the UA back in May 2018 but it didn’t make it through so they scrapped it and made it a rogue instead
Thank you so much for all of the tips, the Puppeteer is in progress with a shout-out crediting you! The primary reason I would prefer the Soul Knife as a Monk subclass would be to free up the Rogue for something like the Puppeteer or Mentalist, a thief of thoughts. I read a rather compelling argument in favor of the Monk as well, I'll include a link if I can find it. If Soul Knife stays a Rogue subclass I fully intend playing one. The art of manifesting these psychic blades just feels so Monk, though a lot of psionics do. Plus, it steps on Astral Self's toes a bit. I'll have fun with whatever comes out, but I do have my own visions.
IamSposta,
Here’s the material I think Atrome was referencing
Thank you so much for all of the tips, the Puppeteer is in progress with a shout-out crediting you! The primary reason I would prefer the Soul Knife as a Monk subclass would be to free up the Rogue for something like the Puppeteer or Mentalist, a thief of thoughts. I read a rather compelling argument in favor of the Monk as well, I'll include a link if I can find it. If Soul Knife stays a Rogue subclass I fully intend playing one. The art of manifesting these psychic blades just feels so Monk, though a lot of psionics do. Plus, it steps on Astral Self's toes a bit. I'll have fun with whatever comes out, but I do have my own visions.
IamSposta,
Here’s the material I think Atrome was referencing
I have to disagree a little. I think the Soul Knife really shines as a Rogue Subtype and is really only missing some 'Detect Thoughts' action around level 9 to perfect it. Perhaps something along the lines of 'You may cast the Detect Thoughts spell, without components, a number of times per day equal to your inteligence modifier. If you attempt to delve deeper on a target that is asleep or at leisure and relaxed, they roll their save with disadvantage". You can imagine a Soul Knife, sitting in a bar near a target, nursing a drink and delving into their mind with none the wiser, or sneaking into their bedroom through an unlocked 3rd story window and pulling the memories from their mind while they sleep.
But the real reason I lean into Rogue for the Soul Knife is because of the knives being valid 'Throwing Weapons'. There are very few classes that can actually make use of the daggers thrown property with Rogues being at the forefront of that list, but the moment magic weapons start to show up the throwing style goes out the window (just like that +2 dagger you missed the enemy with). Soul Knife does away with that restriction in a way that is fantastically thematic and stylistic. In the case of the monk, the monk is still a melee character, even when throwing darts becomes an option. So then you have to build a class around throwing magic monk weapons at range and still being able to use their melee KI abilities.
Which is called a Sun Soul Monk currently. And if changing the damage type from Radiant to Psychic is not enough, it's certainly going to get you 90% of the way there with a few ribbons.
I can certainly see the Astral Self Monk to be the Psionic type, but I actually think a Monk that uses Psychic powers to reinforce their body could work as well. Something of a Monk-Tank that doesn't rely on Grapple like the Astral Self monk.
Okay so i lied it wasn’t UA, but i did still fail to pass the community check
Having read it I can see why. OP much?
Yeah, that looks like my first draft of a subclass where I just list every possible thought I have so that I can pick 1 or 2 of them to survive to the next draft.
Thank you so much for all of the tips, the Puppeteer is in progress with a shout-out crediting you! The primary reason I would prefer the Soul Knife as a Monk subclass would be to free up the Rogue for something like the Puppeteer or Mentalist, a thief of thoughts. I read a rather compelling argument in favor of the Monk as well, I'll include a link if I can find it. If Soul Knife stays a Rogue subclass I fully intend playing one. The art of manifesting these psychic blades just feels so Monk, though a lot of psionics do. Plus, it steps on Astral Self's toes a bit. I'll have fun with whatever comes out, but I do have my own visions.
IamSposta,
Here’s the material I think Atrome was referencing
That's the thing about UA that is so decisive... everyone has their own idea of what "fits" into a class. I worry less about this thematic stuff and more about the actual balance and power-fantasy that it supplies. I was honestly pretty bummed when the Brute was canned for being too "boring" when it was actually a really great baseline fighter to add to the list of like... 2 others (Battle Master and Champion). Same goes for the Primeval Guardian (though I hope we see another iteration of that but with the Druid... let us turn into trees dammit). But the people have spoken on that one and it shall never see the light of day again.
As for the Soul Knife and it's themes: this idea landing in either of the classes would drastically change the flavor of it. In Rogue it becomes an assassin that leaves no trace behind besides a headache and questions. In the monk they become a martial artist that hones their mind into a weapon so sharp that it can manifest into blades. Both are super cool are entirely up to preference and balance. I'm happy as long as we GET a Soul Knife, though seeing that it is in Rogue potentially means that we will be getting something spicy for Monk later down the line (as I doubt they would just leave Psionic Subclasses at just 3) and who is to say we won't get more psionic subclasses later on?
And glad you liked my critiques! You are on your way to a really unique subclass and I am excited to see it.
Thank you so much for all of the tips, the Puppeteer is in progress with a shout-out crediting you! The primary reason I would prefer the Soul Knife as a Monk subclass would be to free up the Rogue for something like the Puppeteer or Mentalist, a thief of thoughts. I read a rather compelling argument in favor of the Monk as well, I'll include a link if I can find it. If Soul Knife stays a Rogue subclass I fully intend playing one. The art of manifesting these psychic blades just feels so Monk, though a lot of psionics do. Plus, it steps on Astral Self's toes a bit. I'll have fun with whatever comes out, but I do have my own visions.
IamSposta,
Here’s the material I think Atrome was referencing
That's the thing about UA that is so decisive... everyone has their own idea of what "fits" into a class. I worry less about this thematic stuff and more about the actual balance and power-fantasy that it supplies. I was honestly pretty bummed when the Brute was canned for being too "boring" when it was actually a really great baseline fighter to add to the list of like... 2 others (Battle Master and Champion). Same goes for the Primeval Guardian (though I hope we see another iteration of that but with the Druid... let us turn into trees dammit). But the people have spoken on that one and it shall never see the light of day again.
As for the Soul Knife and it's themes: this idea landing in either of the classes would drastically change the flavor of it. In Rogue it becomes an assassin that leaves no trace behind besides a headache and questions. In the monk they become a martial artist that hones their mind into a weapon so sharp that it can manifest into blades. Both are super cool are entirely up to preference and balance. I'm happy as long as we GET a Soul Knife, though seeing that it is in Rogue potentially means that we will be getting something spicy for Monk later down the line (as I doubt they would just leave Psionic Subclasses at just 3) and who is to say we won't get more psionic subclasses later on?
And glad you liked my critiques! You are on your way to a really unique subclass and I am excited to see it.
Not to be the gloom speaker, but they might be leaving it with these three. They seem like a very strange combination of classes, but when you think of it, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard are in fact the only classes that ever have a reason to use the intelligence stat. (I mean, Artificier is now on the list, but there are several reasons why i can see it left off for now.)
In addition, I did find the Rune Knight, the Revived Rogue, and the Onomancer to be the some of the most troublesome of the UA classes for various reasons (the Rune Knight for function, the Revived Rogue for Theme, and the Onomancer for gameplay mechanics.) but that is entirely my own opinion.
I'll agree with you on the Revived Rogue. It was a mess thematically and feature-wise and I hope they completely re-haul it. But with the right balancing and changes the Rune Knight and Onomancer can be really flavorful additions to the game. The whole MAD'ness of it all rarely integrates into their thinking, however, and INT isn't the only thing a Psion can use when you think about it. CHA and WIS are equally valid stats to look at when thinking of a psionic sub-class. I can easily see an Immortal Monk using their strength of will (wisdom) to alter their body psionically or a Order of the Avatar Paladin using their forceful personality as a mantle to change the emotions of those around them.
Also... slight rant. I dislike the the whole "THIS THING IS SLIGHTLY OFF SO I DON'T WANT IT IN THE GAMe" thought that a lot of the old guard of this community has. The more options we have the better, in my opinion... instead of getting rid of these things we should be coming up with valid changes so that new iterations of them can come out at a later date. That's the whole point of UA.
Take for instance the Revived Rogue. Thematically it pigeonholes you into a specific backstory which a lot of players seem not to like (and I am one of those people). However, a lot of it's mechanics make for a rather interesting subclass and something that we haven't seen yet for the rogue; an agent of death, a ritualistic killer with reverence for the spirit, or even a grave robber. Instead of scrapping the whole thing why don't we just get rid "Tokens of Passed Lives" and reword "Connect with Dead" to state that you gain the abilities on the D3 table FROM who you are casting the spell on. Rename it something like the "Grave Stalker" "Graverobber" or "Reaper" and then take the idea of the "Revived" and make it into a background with Tokens From Passed Lives" as the ribbon feature for that BG (with some retuning, obviously) and I would instantly be more down for this subclass.
The same goes for the Soulknife and other subclasses currently up on the UA (and the Archivist... bring that back but just rebalance it, it was so flavorful and would be perfect for a psionic Artificer). They are almost right for the game, but aspects of them are off and need to be changed...but not scrapped.
The Revived Rogue could be really cool, but it just feels like a random smattering of powers a player would try to sell the DM on that don't make a lot of sense. Bolts from the grave specifically feels out of place. How does resurrected thief translate to shooting lasers at people? Something that involved a cold grip or damage resist, regenerative properties maybe?
The class kinda reminds me of The Crow. Even if it blatantly aped some of the abilities from that movie, it would feel more thematically relevant.
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I am of the opinion that Soul Knife would be better suited as a Monk subclass. As such, I have created my first homebrew subclass! I understand it needs a lot of work, possibly even starting completely over. So please check out my subclass and help me improve it! Be as harsh as you are productive, so suggestions are appreciated, "This sucks"'s are not. Introducing the Mentalist!
Psion in my view is better suited as a monk subclass altogether if we are going with existing classes. Imagine the way of the four elements, but with the choices being all psionic spells or additional abilities. This to me seems like the easiest path to make a psion subclass that actually feels like a psion. Monk already have a lot of lore and backstory that sort of fit. Way of four elements is lame cuz it lacks enough choices or interesting choices, but imagine if simply you modified it to include all the psionic spells. This would be kind of cool in my mind and probably work without too much trouble.
I disagree on the Soul Knife being better for Monks. The whole concept of psychic blades leads quite well into the "silent assassin" arch-type for a Rogue. Though I do agree that this iteration needs some work... mainly in the whole Psychic Enhancement front. it should jut be scrapped and turned into a new ability entirely. I'm a little tired of giving every psionic class telepathy, so maybe giving the Soul Knife a "psychic parry" or something that either increases one's AC by +1 depending on how many knives you have out, a baseline increase on Wisdom/Intelligence saving throws, OR (by hitting an enemy with one of your knives) you make them make a INT saving throw and if they fail they have disadvantage on saving throws of your choosing for a certain amount of time. At the moment that feature is the main thing holding it back... that and it should be able to imbue psychic energy into preexisting weapons instead of being pigeon holed into always having to make knives.
As for your Mentalist: Prescient Stratagem is hella OP. Being able to just force Disadvantage without a save or expending a resource is ridiculous. This should either be a thing that is limited by your INT mod or something along those lines. Aura sight is just a better version of what the Master Mind can do and kind of treads on it's toes. Now what I find interesting here is the Body Snatcher idea... basing a class on the trope of an assassin that uses someone else's body to do their dirty work is pretty cool and should be explored a bit. Maybe do a redo on this subclass but focus in on this concept? Call it the Puppeteer or something and have it entirely focused or misdirection and mind control? Some ideas:
-Switch Body Snatch to a lower level ability but you have to use the ability on an unconscious, willing, or even dead creature (though the wounds of death do not heal so you would have to conceal them).
-Sneak attack damage done by this class is entirely psychic, and if struck the creature must make an INT saving throw... if they fail their WIS/INT saving throws have a point deduction or disadvantage for a certain amount of time.
-Marked creatures open them up to a host of "Battle Maneuver"-esque abilities but for controlling enemies (stuff like "force the enemy to move their max distance, attack a creature at disadvantage, fall prone, ect).
If any of these subclasses should be for a different class it should be the Psychic Warrior as a Paladin Oath.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Why do you say that?
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The capstone ability is very similar to a paladin's, and could easily be adjusted to the paladin. Augmented Defenses is great for protection based paladins, augmented strikes is great for paladins to gain an additional static damage every round, which is really good for the best nova class. Telekinetic Hand is great, would be useful for a half caster that normally does not get cantrips, and mage hand is always useful, especially when invisible. Strength of Mind is great, and feels like a paladin ability to lock down an enemy and move them around the battlefield. Telekinetic Bulwark is just a paladin aura, and can be very easily converted to a paladin ability. Agonizing Strikes would be extremely good for the already great nova class, giving a great boost for those times you get a critical hit and need to DESTROY someone.
I wish this fighter subclass was converted to a paladin subclass, and was made to use Charisma instead of Intelligence for their abilities.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If it were charisma based though, then it wouldn't be Psionic. That's the entire point, power of the mind and all that. I think its fine to have a support defensive fighter archtype that is somewhat similar to a paladin, especially since it keys off of a different stat.
Power of the mind isn't really just INT otherwise, CHA and WIS wouldn't be called the mental stats. Even the Psionic Sorc goes off CHA.
The soul knife actually did start as a monk subclass. It was in the UA back in May 2018 but it didn’t make it through so they scrapped it and made it a rogue instead
Do you have a link/copy for that?
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Davavor,
Thank you so much for all of the tips, the Puppeteer is in progress with a shout-out crediting you!
The primary reason I would prefer the Soul Knife as a Monk subclass would be to free up the Rogue for something like the Puppeteer or Mentalist, a thief of thoughts. I read a rather compelling argument in favor of the Monk as well, I'll include a link if I can find it. If Soul Knife stays a Rogue subclass I fully intend playing one. The art of manifesting these psychic blades just feels so Monk, though a lot of psionics do. Plus, it steps on Astral Self's toes a bit. I'll have fun with whatever comes out, but I do have my own visions.
IamSposta,
Here’s the material I think Atrome was referencing
Okay so i lied it wasn’t UA, but i did still fail to pass the community check
Having read it I can see why. OP much?
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I have to disagree a little. I think the Soul Knife really shines as a Rogue Subtype and is really only missing some 'Detect Thoughts' action around level 9 to perfect it. Perhaps something along the lines of 'You may cast the Detect Thoughts spell, without components, a number of times per day equal to your inteligence modifier. If you attempt to delve deeper on a target that is asleep or at leisure and relaxed, they roll their save with disadvantage". You can imagine a Soul Knife, sitting in a bar near a target, nursing a drink and delving into their mind with none the wiser, or sneaking into their bedroom through an unlocked 3rd story window and pulling the memories from their mind while they sleep.
But the real reason I lean into Rogue for the Soul Knife is because of the knives being valid 'Throwing Weapons'. There are very few classes that can actually make use of the daggers thrown property with Rogues being at the forefront of that list, but the moment magic weapons start to show up the throwing style goes out the window (just like that +2 dagger you missed the enemy with). Soul Knife does away with that restriction in a way that is fantastically thematic and stylistic. In the case of the monk, the monk is still a melee character, even when throwing darts becomes an option. So then you have to build a class around throwing magic monk weapons at range and still being able to use their melee KI abilities.
Which is called a Sun Soul Monk currently. And if changing the damage type from Radiant to Psychic is not enough, it's certainly going to get you 90% of the way there with a few ribbons.
I can certainly see the Astral Self Monk to be the Psionic type, but I actually think a Monk that uses Psychic powers to reinforce their body could work as well. Something of a Monk-Tank that doesn't rely on Grapple like the Astral Self monk.
Yeah, that looks like my first draft of a subclass where I just list every possible thought I have so that I can pick 1 or 2 of them to survive to the next draft.
That's the thing about UA that is so decisive... everyone has their own idea of what "fits" into a class. I worry less about this thematic stuff and more about the actual balance and power-fantasy that it supplies. I was honestly pretty bummed when the Brute was canned for being too "boring" when it was actually a really great baseline fighter to add to the list of like... 2 others (Battle Master and Champion). Same goes for the Primeval Guardian (though I hope we see another iteration of that but with the Druid... let us turn into trees dammit). But the people have spoken on that one and it shall never see the light of day again.
As for the Soul Knife and it's themes: this idea landing in either of the classes would drastically change the flavor of it. In Rogue it becomes an assassin that leaves no trace behind besides a headache and questions. In the monk they become a martial artist that hones their mind into a weapon so sharp that it can manifest into blades. Both are super cool are entirely up to preference and balance. I'm happy as long as we GET a Soul Knife, though seeing that it is in Rogue potentially means that we will be getting something spicy for Monk later down the line (as I doubt they would just leave Psionic Subclasses at just 3) and who is to say we won't get more psionic subclasses later on?
And glad you liked my critiques! You are on your way to a really unique subclass and I am excited to see it.
Not to be the gloom speaker, but they might be leaving it with these three. They seem like a very strange combination of classes, but when you think of it, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard are in fact the only classes that ever have a reason to use the intelligence stat. (I mean, Artificier is now on the list, but there are several reasons why i can see it left off for now.)
In addition, I did find the Rune Knight, the Revived Rogue, and the Onomancer to be the some of the most troublesome of the UA classes for various reasons (the Rune Knight for function, the Revived Rogue for Theme, and the Onomancer for gameplay mechanics.) but that is entirely my own opinion.
Guytza,
I'll agree with you on the Revived Rogue. It was a mess thematically and feature-wise and I hope they completely re-haul it. But with the right balancing and changes the Rune Knight and Onomancer can be really flavorful additions to the game. The whole MAD'ness of it all rarely integrates into their thinking, however, and INT isn't the only thing a Psion can use when you think about it. CHA and WIS are equally valid stats to look at when thinking of a psionic sub-class. I can easily see an Immortal Monk using their strength of will (wisdom) to alter their body psionically or a Order of the Avatar Paladin using their forceful personality as a mantle to change the emotions of those around them.
Also... slight rant. I dislike the the whole "THIS THING IS SLIGHTLY OFF SO I DON'T WANT IT IN THE GAMe" thought that a lot of the old guard of this community has. The more options we have the better, in my opinion... instead of getting rid of these things we should be coming up with valid changes so that new iterations of them can come out at a later date. That's the whole point of UA.
Take for instance the Revived Rogue. Thematically it pigeonholes you into a specific backstory which a lot of players seem not to like (and I am one of those people). However, a lot of it's mechanics make for a rather interesting subclass and something that we haven't seen yet for the rogue; an agent of death, a ritualistic killer with reverence for the spirit, or even a grave robber. Instead of scrapping the whole thing why don't we just get rid "Tokens of Passed Lives" and reword "Connect with Dead" to state that you gain the abilities on the D3 table FROM who you are casting the spell on. Rename it something like the "Grave Stalker" "Graverobber" or "Reaper" and then take the idea of the "Revived" and make it into a background with Tokens From Passed Lives" as the ribbon feature for that BG (with some retuning, obviously) and I would instantly be more down for this subclass.
The same goes for the Soulknife and other subclasses currently up on the UA (and the Archivist... bring that back but just rebalance it, it was so flavorful and would be perfect for a psionic Artificer). They are almost right for the game, but aspects of them are off and need to be changed...but not scrapped.
Davavor,
I absolutely agree with you that we should be trying to improve stuff more than just bin it.
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The Revived Rogue could be really cool, but it just feels like a random smattering of powers a player would try to sell the DM on that don't make a lot of sense. Bolts from the grave specifically feels out of place. How does resurrected thief translate to shooting lasers at people? Something that involved a cold grip or damage resist, regenerative properties maybe?
The class kinda reminds me of The Crow. Even if it blatantly aped some of the abilities from that movie, it would feel more thematically relevant.