I'm an old school Psionics HUGE fan, Dnd E1, Darksun etc and absolutely despise all these Psi classes...don't like any of them. I did like access to all the psi orientated spells that were released a couple months ago and you could flavor your own Psi character using spells. Psi's should be a random (rolled) development to give you access to the abilities. Still think Monks, Sorcerers (Vampire Mind Drinker Ancestry maybe), Warlocks, and Bards should be given access to most of the spells..
Wizards, fighters, barbs, are already powerful enough. Doesn't make sense. I know this isn't the popular feedback opinion according to Jeremy Crawford but it is the right one. I just needed to get this off my chest. I don't want to be slimy aberrant mind, sould knife makes no sense to me unless its psi 'spell'. Ugh. Vent over.
Myself I am delighted that they are not going with a special mechanic for Psionics the Psi Dice would have been a decent one as keeping it simple helps, but a whole new set of mechanics would slow down game play and no one needs that.
I disagree.
In fact, if they give us Psionics without a new mechanic I will ban it at my table.
But it is a new mechanic with Psi talent, using psi points to change the die type for one of classes.
I'm an old school Psionics HUGE fan, Dnd E1, Darksun etc and absolutely despise all these Psi classes...don't like any of them. I did like access to all the psi orientated spells that were released a couple months ago and you could flavor your own Psi character using spells. Psi's should be a random (rolled) development to give you access to the abilities. Still think Monks, Sorcerers (Vampire Mind Drinker Ancestry maybe), Warlocks, and Bards should be given access to most of the spells..
Wizards, fighters, barbs, are already powerful enough. Doesn't make sense. I know this isn't the popular feedback opinion according to Jeremy Crawford but it is the right one. I just needed to get this off my chest. I don't want to be slimy aberrant mind, sould knife makes no sense to me unless its psi 'spell'. Ugh. Vent over.
Myself I am delighted that they are not going with a special mechanic for Psionics the Psi Dice would have been a decent one as keeping it simple helps, but a whole new set of mechanics would slow down game play and no one needs that.
I disagree.
In fact, if they give us Psionics without a new mechanic I will ban it at my table.
But it is a new mechanic with Psi talent, using psi points to change the die type for one of classes.
If it uses spells, or Spellcasting at all, then it is not a “new” mechanic. And they are dropping the Psi Die.
I misread your post, I thought you said with a new mechanic you would ban it, if they removed it I'm glad then there is no new mechanic. Its probably best, IMO, as a "spell"...its thematic for Bards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers...I don't think Wizards should be able to access these new spells, they already have a ton of options. Psi fighters / thieves should be available play a Gith or Kalashtar, I don't think it applies to other races much like a dwarf can only be a battlerager.
You can ban whatever you want at your table...the whole purpose of this is to have fun, its a game, not a set of laws. My biggest complaint is 5e is already soo complicated with a million and counting races and subclasses. I like choice but its super hard to even master your own characters sometimes...if you watch streaming, there are many missed mechanics and abilities frequently even with experienced players / GMs.
Eh, sorry man, but I just don't think spells are going to cut it. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but if spells is really the way they're going to go, all that amounts to is rearranging the deck chairs; they might as well just not do it.
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic; there's a lot of shit going on that's painting my perceptions. But I'm not optimistic they can repackage the same thing that we've been using and still keep it fresh.
Eh, sorry man, but I just don't think spells are going to cut it. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but if spells is really the way they're going to go, all that amounts to is rearranging the deck chairs; they might as well just not do it.
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic; there's a lot of shit going on that's painting my perceptions. But I'm not optimistic they can repackage the same thing that we've been using and still keep it fresh.
I dunno. If they took psionic powers and baked them in as class/subclass features for an actual Psion, I could live with that. Otherwise, I just...don't see how it's going to work without being shoehorned.
I dunno. If they took psionic powers and baked them in as class/subclass features for an actual Psion, I could live with that. Otherwise, I just...don't see how it's going to work without being shoehorned.
Agreed about the shoehorning, not with the “live with it” part.
I genuinely hope I'm horribly, horribly wrong, but I have a feeling we're going to have to go with homebrew for actually decent psionics.
I’ve already come to that conclusion. I had been working on one, then they dropped the Psi Die on us so I started converting to that. Then I thought better of it and decided to wait until I heard from WotC about the survey feedback. I’m glad I did. LeviRocks has been helping too, but like I said things have been halted. I’m waiting to hear back from him about it, probably either later tonight or sometime later this week. To be honest, I work better with collaboration.
I had an idea. It seems that the reasons people hated the Psi Die for two main reasons:
The die changed size instead of dice count and “That’s too different and complicated!!” 🙄
The bust came on the high number and the boom came on the 1 and “That’s too different and weird!!” 🙄
So what if instead, you got a pool of dice to use that increased just like cantrips (2d4@1st level, 3@5th, 4@11th, and 5@17th), and you could choose how many you used on any given power. Busts happen on 1s and booms on 4s to calm people’s OCD down. Ever bust removes the die from the pool, every boon adds one back in, and Psionic Recovery reset the pool every Short Rest like a Warlock’s spell slots. That way it’s still somewhat different than anything we already have, but not different enough to scare people away. And then everything is just class/subclass features that use those. And then go back to my idea to make minor powers sorta like Eldritch Invocations and Major powers work sorta like Chanel Divinities. Do you think that would be vanilla enough for the critics?
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
Judging by Bardic Inspiration and Superiority Dice, people seem more comfortable with a changing pool size than die size.🥱 🤷♂️ It would also eliminate the whole “I might run out!!” Fear people seemed to have. 🙄 People could choose how many dice to gamble and how many to reserve. Gives them a sense of control. Maybe cut the scale from 2-5 dice to 1-4 dice and have them turn into d6s at some point? Or maybe just start with d6s? Or a higher level “If you roll for initiative and have no boring dice in your boring pool you get one die blah blah blah blah....” might work? Still spitballing it.
Well, since we're speculating, I personally would stick with the 2-5 scaling and keep the dice size the same throughout, and see how that goes. For a capstone, I would probably make it something like "as a bonus action, you regain all expended dice, and for 1 minute your dice pool remains at it's maximum number regardless ot the number each dice rolls." Something like that might work.
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
I'd be open to you joining in, but it would be up to Sposta. He's really in charge here.
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I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
Judging by Bardic Inspiration and Superiority Dice, people seem more comfortable with a changing pool size than die size.🥱 🤷♂️ It would also eliminate the whole “I might run out!!” Fear people seemed to have. 🙄 People could choose how many dice to gamble and how many to reserve. Gives them a sense of control. Maybe cut the scale from 2-5 dice to 1-4 dice and have them turn into d6s at some point? Or maybe just start with d6s? Or a higher level “If you roll for initiative and have no boring dice in your boring pool you get one die blah blah blah blah....” might work? Still spitballing it.
d4 seems kind of small for die size, but I guess monks start out with it? I would say it starts as a d6, so it actually is more viable at lower levels, OR you make it so it is a d4, but is additional damage to a prime damage dice. Like, a 1/day power does 2d10 psychic damage to one target, but you can amplify this ability, dealing an additional d4 damage, depending on what level you are, the amount of d4s increases, or maybe also the die size.
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I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
I'd be open to you joining in, but it would be up to Sposta. He's really in charge here.
I might not mind the help. Like I said, I work better with collaboration.
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
Judging by Bardic Inspiration and Superiority Dice, people seem more comfortable with a changing pool size than die size.🥱 🤷♂️ It would also eliminate the whole “I might run out!!” Fear people seemed to have. 🙄 People could choose how many dice to gamble and how many to reserve. Gives them a sense of control. Maybe cut the scale from 2-5 dice to 1-4 dice and have them turn into d6s at some point? Or maybe just start with d6s? Or a higher level “If you roll for initiative and have no boring dice in your boring pool you get one die blah blah blah blah....” might work? Still spitballing it.
d4 seems kind of small for die size, but I guess monks start out with it? I would say it starts as a d6, so it actually is more viable at lower levels, OR you make it so it is a d4, but is additional damage to a prime damage dice. Like, a 1/day power does 2d10 psychic damage to one target, but you can amplify this ability, dealing an additional d4 damage, depending on what level you are, the amount of d4s increases, or maybe also the die size.
So 2d6 to start up to 5d6 at 17th level. And I think I’d prefer to not mix too many dice. I’d like this pool to really be their resource pool. I think this has the potential to be simple enough to not scare people, similar enough to existing design to get past the critics, but different enough from spells to give it a unique feel. People will feel like they have some control over the resource because they can choose how many dice to gamble on any given roll. And things that work in roughly familiar ways similar to Chanel Divinity and Eldritch Invocations would ease people into it, but we still wouldn’t have to rely on spells.
I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
I'd be open to you joining in, but it would be up to Sposta. He's really in charge here.
I might not mind the help. Like I said, I work better with collaboration.
I'd be super interested, but don't feel obligated to do so on my account. If you want to keep it between you and Levi, there'd be no hard feelings.
And yeah, I concur with keeping the dice as self-contained as possible, that would probably work best for what the dice are trying to accomplish.
I misread your post, I thought you said with a new mechanic you would ban it, if they removed it I'm glad then there is no new mechanic. Its probably best, IMO, as a "spell"...its thematic for Bards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers...I don't think Wizards should be able to access these new spells, they already have a ton of options. Psi fighters / thieves should be available play a Gith or Kalashtar, I don't think it applies to other races much like a dwarf can only be a battlerager.
You can ban whatever you want at your table...the whole purpose of this is to have fun, its a game, not a set of laws. My biggest complaint is 5e is already soo complicated with a million and counting races and subclasses. I like choice but its super hard to even master your own characters sometimes...if you watch streaming, there are many missed mechanics and abilities frequently even with experienced players / GMs.
I agree. Personally I think that most 5e players just wont take to a new class to fill this concept, and you have to add in the barrier that the players who come up with Psionic character concepts would need to learn a new mechanic and suddenly you are alienating tons of players. The survey results just don’t support it. The demographic has really shifted to friends focused on a narrative around a table, and they want the mechanics to work for them and not the other way around, so they can focus on the role play and story.
I believe we will see psionic subclasses based on different narrative backgrounds. Aberrant Mind hopefully returns (it was rated as highly satisfied and lowered with the changes they made) and Soul Knife and some version of a Psychic Fighter. I also think if we continue this path it would be cool to see a Psionic Bard based on Empathy, a Psionic Druid or Cleric that is a “Mystic” and a few other tropes in the other classes.
They said in this video that they want to appeal to both groups of players, which they said were:
Majority of players that don't want a new mechanic for these subclasses. They want simple psionics that plays just like any other 5e class in terms of simplicity.
Loud, but small, group of players that want a new mechanic. They're very vocal that they want more psionics in D&D and for it to be different from normal 5e play, but don't like the current version.
They then made it sound like they were going to go back to something like the original version of the Aberrant Mind, Psychic Warrior, and Soulknife because that was the most common message that they got. They also said that they want to make the #2 category of people happy as well. (I am in that group)
What this sounds like to me is one of the following options:
Subclasses for other classes are simple, and similar in mechanics to normal 5e D&D subclasses. The people who want new mechanics will get a new class for psionics. (This seems like the best idea for me, personally. People who want simple psionics get what they want, people that want new mechanics get what they want as well.)
Subclasses will come with 2 variant version. One of them will be simple for most of the community that wants it simple, and the second version will be optional and use new mechanics and be more complicated. (This seems like the least possible option for them to do, and would satisfy me a bit, but I'd still be upset that we don't get a class)
They compromise on the subclasses, and make it a bit more complicated than normal subclass play, but not many new mechanics will be introduced. (This seems like the most likely option, but I really hope they don't do this. Almost no one wants this. Category 2 people don't want this, Category 1 people don't want this. Almost no one is happy or satisfied by this, but it's the easiest option.)
What do you think they'll do? Are there any more categories of people, or other options?
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I sincerely hope they go for option 1. There isn't really any precedent for them to go that route, but then again they've only ever introduced 1 new class for 5e, so...?
I sincerely hope they go for option 1. There isn't really any precedent for them to go that route, but then again they've only ever introduced 1 new class for 5e, so...?
They tried out the Artificer as a Wizard a couple times. They turned it into a class, because people wanted it to be a class.
I know it's not the same, but they could split it to make everyone (mostly everyone, that is) happy.
Not really precedented, I know, but I think it's the best option for everyone.
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But it is a new mechanic with Psi talent, using psi points to change the die type for one of classes.
If it uses spells, or Spellcasting at all, then it is not a “new” mechanic. And they are dropping the Psi Die.
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I misread your post, I thought you said with a new mechanic you would ban it, if they removed it I'm glad then there is no new mechanic. Its probably best, IMO, as a "spell"...its thematic for Bards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers...I don't think Wizards should be able to access these new spells, they already have a ton of options. Psi fighters / thieves should be available play a Gith or Kalashtar, I don't think it applies to other races much like a dwarf can only be a battlerager.
You can ban whatever you want at your table...the whole purpose of this is to have fun, its a game, not a set of laws. My biggest complaint is 5e is already soo complicated with a million and counting races and subclasses. I like choice but its super hard to even master your own characters sometimes...if you watch streaming, there are many missed mechanics and abilities frequently even with experienced players / GMs.
Eh, sorry man, but I just don't think spells are going to cut it. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but if spells is really the way they're going to go, all that amounts to is rearranging the deck chairs; they might as well just not do it.
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic; there's a lot of shit going on that's painting my perceptions. But I'm not optimistic they can repackage the same thing that we've been using and still keep it fresh.
Agreed.
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I dunno. If they took psionic powers and baked them in as class/subclass features for an actual Psion, I could live with that. Otherwise, I just...don't see how it's going to work without being shoehorned.
Agreed about the shoehorning, not with the “live with it” part.
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I genuinely hope I'm horribly, horribly wrong, but I have a feeling we're going to have to go with homebrew for actually decent psionics.
I’ve already come to that conclusion. I had been working on one, then they dropped the Psi Die on us so I started converting to that. Then I thought better of it and decided to wait until I heard from WotC about the survey feedback. I’m glad I did. LeviRocks has been helping too, but like I said things have been halted. I’m waiting to hear back from him about it, probably either later tonight or sometime later this week. To be honest, I work better with collaboration.
I had an idea. It seems that the reasons people hated the Psi Die for two main reasons:
So what if instead, you got a pool of dice to use that increased just like cantrips (2d4@1st level, 3@5th, 4@11th, and 5@17th), and you could choose how many you used on any given power. Busts happen on 1s and booms on 4s to calm people’s OCD down. Ever bust removes the die from the pool, every boon adds one back in, and Psionic Recovery reset the pool every Short Rest like a Warlock’s spell slots. That way it’s still somewhat different than anything we already have, but not different enough to scare people away. And then everything is just class/subclass features that use those. And then go back to my idea to make minor powers sorta like Eldritch Invocations and Major powers work sorta like Chanel Divinities. Do you think that would be vanilla enough for the critics?
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I think that would be super cool, but if people thought the psi dice was too hard, then I can't say I'm filled with confidence (again, I hope I am horribly wrong, but if I'm not then that really doesn't bode well for the future of 5e).
In any event, it's awesome that you and Levi are working on this together. If you guys were up for it,, I'd be really interested to see what you guys come up with.
Judging by Bardic Inspiration and Superiority Dice, people seem more comfortable with a changing pool size than die size.🥱 🤷♂️ It would also eliminate the whole “I might run out!!” Fear people seemed to have. 🙄 People could choose how many dice to gamble and how many to reserve. Gives them a sense of control. Maybe cut the scale from 2-5 dice to 1-4 dice and have them turn into d6s at some point? Or maybe just start with d6s? Or a higher level “If you roll for initiative and have no boring dice in your boring pool you get one die blah blah blah blah....” might work? Still spitballing it.
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Well, since we're speculating, I personally would stick with the 2-5 scaling and keep the dice size the same throughout, and see how that goes. For a capstone, I would probably make it something like "as a bonus action, you regain all expended dice, and for 1 minute your dice pool remains at it's maximum number regardless ot the number each dice rolls." Something like that might work.
I'd be open to you joining in, but it would be up to Sposta. He's really in charge here.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
d4 seems kind of small for die size, but I guess monks start out with it? I would say it starts as a d6, so it actually is more viable at lower levels, OR you make it so it is a d4, but is additional damage to a prime damage dice. Like, a 1/day power does 2d10 psychic damage to one target, but you can amplify this ability, dealing an additional d4 damage, depending on what level you are, the amount of d4s increases, or maybe also the die size.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I might not mind the help. Like I said, I work better with collaboration.
So 2d6 to start up to 5d6 at 17th level. And I think I’d prefer to not mix too many dice. I’d like this pool to really be their resource pool. I think this has the potential to be simple enough to not scare people, similar enough to existing design to get past the critics, but different enough from spells to give it a unique feel. People will feel like they have some control over the resource because they can choose how many dice to gamble on any given roll. And things that work in roughly familiar ways similar to Chanel Divinity and Eldritch Invocations would ease people into it, but we still wouldn’t have to rely on spells.
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I agree. Personally I think that most 5e players just wont take to a new class to fill this concept, and you have to add in the barrier that the players who come up with Psionic character concepts would need to learn a new mechanic and suddenly you are alienating tons of players. The survey results just don’t support it. The demographic has really shifted to friends focused on a narrative around a table, and they want the mechanics to work for them and not the other way around, so they can focus on the role play and story.
I believe we will see psionic subclasses based on different narrative backgrounds. Aberrant Mind hopefully returns (it was rated as highly satisfied and lowered with the changes they made) and Soul Knife and some version of a Psychic Fighter. I also think if we continue this path it would be cool to see a Psionic Bard based on Empathy, a Psionic Druid or Cleric that is a “Mystic” and a few other tropes in the other classes.
They said in this video that they want to appeal to both groups of players, which they said were:
They then made it sound like they were going to go back to something like the original version of the Aberrant Mind, Psychic Warrior, and Soulknife because that was the most common message that they got. They also said that they want to make the #2 category of people happy as well. (I am in that group)
What this sounds like to me is one of the following options:
What do you think they'll do? Are there any more categories of people, or other options?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I sincerely hope they go for option 1. There isn't really any precedent for them to go that route, but then again they've only ever introduced 1 new class for 5e, so...?
They tried out the Artificer as a Wizard a couple times. They turned it into a class, because people wanted it to be a class.
I know it's not the same, but they could split it to make everyone (mostly everyone, that is) happy.
Not really precedented, I know, but I think it's the best option for everyone.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms