On another note about the document in general, why are they all of a sudden using “You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus” as opposed to the primary ability score modifier? I understand that this way the ability grows in uses as the player, but i like that you have to invest in ASI in order to gain full uses out of certain abilities. Thought?
Maybe that's the idea: To make ASIs less necessary so that you have more flexibility with how you build up your character. I personally don't mind either approach.
Also helps if you want to multiclass into weird combinations. Now all your features aren't based on having an ability score "This tall to ride" and instead scale as you level, no matter the class.
I think that’s my issue with it. You know me, if it’s interesting and different than what else is in 5e I’m usually all for it. And I have no problem whatsoever with class features scaling off of something other than main stat.
But WotC has twisted other subclasses up so hard to make sure that their features only scale one of two ways. Either they only scale on class level, or an Ability score that the player has to invest in for the character. Having these things scale the same even for multiclassers sounds primed for abuse.
If Racial features scaled on Proficiency so as to be agnostic towards class levels and Ability scores I would be leading the cheers. I think that is a brilliant idea they should have been using this whole time. If all the other however-the-heck-many 5e subclasses were not so adamantly tied to class level, or player investment then I’d say no problemo. But look at it this way:
Whispers of the Dead: Super useful ability. I could definitely see an Artificer multiclassing into Rogue in order to get the free tool proficiency that can change every short rest. Very nice.
Whispers of the Dead. Echoes of those who have died begin to cling to you. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can gain one skill or tool proficiency of your choice, as a ghostly presence shares its knowledge with you. This proficiency lasts until you use this feature again.
I don’t think anyone would call that a crazy trade because Soul of frikin’ Artifice is a lot to give up. But WotD is at 3rd-level along with:
Wails from the Grave. As you nudge someone closer to the grave, you can cause deathly wails to be heard near them. Immediately after you deal your Sneak Attack damage to a creature on your turn, you can target a second creature that you can see within 30 feet of the first creature. Roll half the number of Sneak Attack dice for your level (round up), and the second creature takes psychic damage equal to the roll’s total, as wails of the dead sound around them for a moment. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Now, admittedly, that doesn’t seem too bad either, but only because Sneak Attack is entirely dependent on class level. In this case it’s not such an issue so nobody reaches for pitchforks.
But look again at Genie’s Vessel. For a 1 level dip into Warlock (because that’s so flippin’ rare and unusual 🙄) you also get... a magic toe-ring Spellcasting Focus that is “always wielded,” keeps both hands free, gives you not only a special clubhouse you get all to yourself that, while fragile, would be hard to notice, and you get additional flat damage per round that you hit.
Now that damage may not be much, but both it, and your club house visiting hours automatically increase without having to take another level of Warlock, and without having to invest in Charisma. Remember the Armorers’ “magic codpiece” (not Bowie’s) causing fuss? Did people need more incentive to dip 1-2 into Warlock?
Okay, maybe that’s not the worst either.... What happens when the other subclasses gets a special free scale like Bards, Sorcerers, and Paladins? How bad will the dipping get then? And it would end up being the same handful of subclasses over and over ad infinitum.
I like the idea in concept, but I’m not sure it will work so well in the Wild. Like I said, if Racial abilities worked this way I don’t think it would be an issue, but I think class/subclass features should specifically not be agnostic to class level. I can see it getting out of hand if not done very carefully. Call it a hunch.
I agree. It can get problematic. I don't think it should be used for lower level abilities to scale as they level up, because that's very abusable. I like the concept of it, but it is kind of a problem. I could 100% see a bard or sorcerer dip into level 1 Genielock just to get this, but again, some capstones are hard to give up.
(Also, I know it's annoying to hear this, but most people don't get to level 20, so that makes it even more attractive for an artificer to dip into Phantom rogue for a lot more versatility)
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(Also, I know it's annoying to hear this, but most people don't get to level 20, so that makes it even more attractive for an artificer to dip into Phantom rogue for a lot more versatility)
I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
I hate that players out there try to abuse the system, so they have to cut things.
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I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
This is also the same reason i heavily complain about all of the heavy front loading of features they have been doing with most all of the recent UA
I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
This is also the same reason i heavily complain about all of the heavy front loading of features they have been doing with most all of the recent UA
I disagree with your statement of them making the new systems in order to sell books or have them be OP. That's not correct. You develop new systems when old ones get overused, which the x-times per long rest equal to x ability modifier was getting overused.
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I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
I hate that players out there try to abuse the system, so they have to cut things.
The DM has final say when it comes to which rules to use and how to apply them. If you don't like people dipping 1 level into class for a feature at your table it is very easy to avoid.
I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
I hate that players out there try to abuse the system, so they have to cut things.
The DM has final say when it comes to which rules to use and how to apply them. If you don't like people dipping 1 level into class for a feature at your table it is very easy to avoid.
Until they whine over an over until you have to kick them out or drop the campaign.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
This is also the same reason i heavily complain about all of the heavy front loading of features they have been doing with most all of the recent UA
Most of the classes are front loaded because so few games hit higher levels. The best features are in level range that sees the most play.
I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
I hate that players out there try to abuse the system, so they have to cut things.
The DM has final say when it comes to which rules to use and how to apply them. If you don't like people dipping 1 level into class for a feature at your table it is very easy to avoid.
Until they whine over an over until you have to kick them out or drop the campaign.
I am sorry that you have had bad luck finding players that fit into your preferred play style. If you lived nearby I would invite you to one of our games.
I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
I hate that players out there try to abuse the system, so they have to cut things.
The DM has final say when it comes to which rules to use and how to apply them. If you don't like people dipping 1 level into class for a feature at your table it is very easy to avoid.
Until they whine over an over until you have to kick them out or drop the campaign.
I am sorry that you have had bad luck finding players that fit into your preferred play style. If you lived nearby I would invite you to one of our games.
I've played with quite a lot bad players, both IRL and online. I understand that the DM has the final ruling, but it's better for the rules to not be able to be taken advantage of, if possible.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
This is also the same reason i heavily complain about all of the heavy front loading of features they have been doing with most all of the recent UA
I disagree with your statement of them making the new systems in order to sell books or have them be OP. That's not correct. You develop new systems when old ones get overused, which the x-times per long rest equal to x ability modifier was getting overused.
I didnt mean the simple act of making new systems. I was referring to making obviously more powerful features
I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
This is also the same reason i heavily complain about all of the heavy front loading of features they have been doing with most all of the recent UA
I disagree with your statement of them making the new systems in order to sell books or have them be OP. That's not correct. You develop new systems when old ones get overused, which the x-times per long rest equal to x ability modifier was getting overused.
I didnt mean the simple act of making new systems. I was referring to making obviously more powerful features
They have stated before that they purposely make UA subclasses more powerful than other subclasses, because it's easier to scale back subclasses that are OP than to scale up underpowered subclasses.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
I simply stated my feelings. I made no fact based attacks on WotC, I didnt state anything and made no attempt to convince people i am in the right. I am simply looking for an intellectual conversation on the idea. You can calm down now lol
I From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
I simply stated my feelings. I made no fact based attacks on WotC, I didnt state anything and made no attempt to convince people i am in the right. I am simply looking for an intellectual conversation on the idea. You can calm down now lol
I'm not getting aggravated, or anything. Just stating that the assumption of it being a ploy to sell more copies is incorrect.
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I’m sure someone will tell me I’m silly for being concerned. And maybe they’ll be right. 🤷♂️ But....
I think that’s my issue with it. You know me, if it’s interesting and different than what else is in 5e I’m usually all for it. And I have no problem whatsoever with class features scaling off of something other than main stat.
But WotC has twisted other subclasses up so hard to make sure that their features only scale one of two ways. Either they only scale on class level, or an Ability score that the player has to invest in for the character. Having these things scale the same even for multiclassers sounds primed for abuse.
If Racial features scaled on Proficiency so as to be agnostic towards class levels and Ability scores I would be leading the cheers. I think that is a brilliant idea they should have been using this whole time. If all the other however-the-heck-many 5e subclasses were not so adamantly tied to class level, or player investment then I’d say no problemo. But look at it this way:
I think you’re right. Consider that for a moment. They would be giving up on Magic Item Master, an ASI, and Soul of Artifice to get Expertise, Sneak Attack (2d6), Thieves’ Cant, Cunning Action, and “Roguish Archetype” which in this case is:
I don’t think anyone would call that a crazy trade because Soul of frikin’ Artifice is a lot to give up. But WotD is at 3rd-level along with:
Now, admittedly, that doesn’t seem too bad either, but only because Sneak Attack is entirely dependent on class level. In this case it’s not such an issue so nobody reaches for pitchforks.
But look again at Genie’s Vessel. For a 1 level dip into Warlock (because that’s so flippin’ rare and unusual 🙄) you also get... a magic toe-ring Spellcasting Focus that is “always wielded,” keeps both hands free, gives you not only a special clubhouse you get all to yourself that, while fragile, would be hard to notice, and you get additional flat damage per round that you hit.
Now that damage may not be much, but both it, and your club house visiting hours automatically increase without having to take another level of Warlock, and without having to invest in Charisma. Remember the Armorers’ “magic codpiece” (not Bowie’s) causing fuss? Did people need more incentive to dip 1-2 into Warlock?
Okay, maybe that’s not the worst either.... What happens when the other subclasses gets a special free scale like Bards, Sorcerers, and Paladins? How bad will the dipping get then? And it would end up being the same handful of subclasses over and over ad infinitum.
I like the idea in concept, but I’m not sure it will work so well in the Wild. Like I said, if Racial abilities worked this way I don’t think it would be an issue, but I think class/subclass features should specifically not be agnostic to class level. I can see it getting out of hand if not done very carefully. Call it a hunch.
That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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I agree. It can get problematic. I don't think it should be used for lower level abilities to scale as they level up, because that's very abusable. I like the concept of it, but it is kind of a problem. I could 100% see a bard or sorcerer dip into level 1 Genielock just to get this, but again, some capstones are hard to give up.
(Also, I know it's annoying to hear this, but most people don't get to level 20, so that makes it even more attractive for an artificer to dip into Phantom rogue for a lot more versatility)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I know.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I hate that everything that is fun or interesting gets cut because some DM out there allows their players to abuse the system, so the rest of us can't have nice things.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I hate that players out there try to abuse the system, so they have to cut things.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree there is definitely a time and place where proficiency scaling can work and work well. My biggest concern for things like this is something more common in video games and such which is "power creep". Creating unique and more powerful templates for how the newer release sub classes work very easily causes them to outshine most of the other options that exist in earlier versions. From my perspective its just a ploy in order to try and sell more copies like "you need to buy the three main books and then every few years a new supplement with the most powerful subclasses yet!! buy it now"
While its not directly harmful, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth.
This is also the same reason i heavily complain about all of the heavy front loading of features they have been doing with most all of the recent UA
I disagree with your statement of them making the new systems in order to sell books or have them be OP. That's not correct. You develop new systems when old ones get overused, which the x-times per long rest equal to x ability modifier was getting overused.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The DM has final say when it comes to which rules to use and how to apply them. If you don't like people dipping 1 level into class for a feature at your table it is very easy to avoid.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Until they whine over an over until you have to kick them out or drop the campaign.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Most of the classes are front loaded because so few games hit higher levels. The best features are in level range that sees the most play.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I am sorry that you have had bad luck finding players that fit into your preferred play style. If you lived nearby I would invite you to one of our games.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I've played with quite a lot bad players, both IRL and online. I understand that the DM has the final ruling, but it's better for the rules to not be able to be taken advantage of, if possible.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I didnt mean the simple act of making new systems. I was referring to making obviously more powerful features
They have stated before that they purposely make UA subclasses more powerful than other subclasses, because it's easier to scale back subclasses that are OP than to scale up underpowered subclasses.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
K and? I was just sharing my opinion about why I don’t like it
You were stating that they make new subclasses more powerful to convince people to buy new products, which is incorrect.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I simply stated my feelings. I made no fact based attacks on WotC, I didnt state anything and made no attempt to convince people i am in the right. I am simply looking for an intellectual conversation on the idea. You can calm down now lol
I'm not getting aggravated, or anything. Just stating that the assumption of it being a ploy to sell more copies is incorrect.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Okay then, mind sharing with me why you believe its incorrect?