Anything BUT whatever dumb ass 💩 WotC has recently done or is currently doing, literally ANYTHING

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

Now, do your calculations include the possiof a dungeon’s occupants eating each other and reproducing to maintain a sort of homeostasis?

 `So, yes...

They presume that the Dragon is not the only top chain predator -- merely that it is the largest in its territory. Hence why I figured out that there needed to be 5.2 million pounds of biomass available in its territory -- that enables the structure of the web to support the amount of food required by such a being.

Now, the real question is what does a dragon eat. If dragons are carnivorous, the math gets a little rough -- but it always functions from the position of the dragon being the highest position in the food chain within its territory. If dragons are herbivorous, things shift a great deal, as the Dragon is then shifted to a different location and position -- and suddenly we need to start looking at what does dragon poop do in a soil system!

I presumed that they are omnivorous - they eat a LOT of food, compared to other beings, and while omnivores generally only make up less than 5% of a biome's species, they also are able to compete more efficiently and reduce the impact on the consumer side of the ecological system by combining both consumers and producers. 

Take the largest living land animal -- African Bull Elephant. Big suckers eat 375 pounds a day. Cross referencing that with the food of other herbivorous creatures and then a selection of carnivores (all large size), I came up with a gamified figure of a being needs to eat ten times its weight in a year in biomass (for omnivores -- it is 12% for herbivores, and 7% for carnivores).

Dragons, per the MM, are about twice the size of an African Bull Elephant, and the cube square rule for mass/size would apply when determining the rough weight, so i just used the basic calc there. So, around 36 to 40k pounds for a Red Dragon. Cut out a fifth for bone, and that's a LOT of biomass to deal with. But 360,000 pounds of biomass is only about a thousand pounds a week, and dragon's are active predators, who fly, hence the massive jump given the size and kcal needed to move such a thing through the air.

Something this big would impact at about 20% of the total biomass (33% if carnivorous, 12.5% if herbivorous), based on overall existing systems, so that's where you get the yearly point of 5.1 million. That also tells me that a Dragon entering that territory would be an immense burden -- but the next question is how much area is needed to support that amount of biomass?

It is shockingly small. A temperate forest generates 256,000 pounds of biomass (including insects and plants) per square foot, or 713,687,000,000,000,000 pounds per square mile. For an Apex A-O predator, only about 10% of that is needed at most, so the territory of a dragon can be as small as a square mile without any issues. If they are Omnivorous. Carnivorous changes things dramatically, as we then have to factor in size, and that means that something this size, focused mostly on temperate grasslands and forests for a hunting space (because of the need for ungulates and related groups), we get about 10 to 20 square miles per beasty, and that's when we run i to issues of chain breakdown should an outside force alter the ecological balance.

Edit: The reason it becomes so shocking is that without the 80% of biomass from plants, you only have about 4.25% of biomass from cattle and wild animals, as a total, so you need a much larger chunk of space that such prey can survive on. Hence why I shifted Dragon to an omnivorous position -- from an evolutionary standpoint, for an animal that active with that much mass, it would make sense that they would be shifting to survive on more than a portion of 4.5% of biomass, they would need a larger capacity -- and that's before we get to brain size and intelligence as additional factors, which burn through protein and fats (two things hard to obtain in quantity from herbaceous material).

Then I had to determine what can support that kind of massive consumption, while also supporting a broader ecosystem around it (since if you don't, everything dies) and that's how I got the figure of 5.2 million pounds of biomass -- to support a broad ranging ecosystem beneath an A-O predator, you still have to have the appropriate steps down.

Now, the reason it sucked me into a maelstrom of learning is that my models in my head were still sorta stuck in some older format stuff -- the pyramid basis, essentially, which doesn't always accurately reflect actual world systems and makes computer modeling get pissy. So, I learned a whole new layer to add to my collection of knowledge about biological systems on a large scale (regional, continental, planetary) just so I could make better encounter tables. 

 Ya shouldn't have asked, huh?

 
Fascinating. Did you also look into the possibility that they might have much slower metabolic rates? That would reduce their necessary daily caloric intake. Like, for example, crocks, ‘gators, pythons, etc. only need to eat periodically, and bears can go months without food while hibernating, which dragons are known to do.

Also, I was always kinda enamored of the idea that dragons hoard because their diets, at least in part, consist of precious metals. Dragons hoard gold as a food source, like a pantry. They literally eat wealth. Had you considered that theory as well?

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

Now, do your calculations include the possiof a dungeon’s occupants eating each other and reproducing to maintain a sort of homeostasis?

 `So, yes...

They presume that the Dragon is not the only top chain predator -- merely that it is the largest in its territory. Hence why I figured out that there needed to be 5.2 million pounds of biomass available in its territory -- that enables the structure of the web to support the amount of food required by such a being.

Now, the real question is what does a dragon eat. If dragons are carnivorous, the math gets a little rough -- but it always functions from the position of the dragon being the highest position in the food chain within its territory. If dragons are herbivorous, things shift a great deal, as the Dragon is then shifted to a different location and position -- and suddenly we need to start looking at what does dragon poop do in a soil system!

I presumed that they are omnivorous - they eat a LOT of food, compared to other beings, and while omnivores generally only make up less than 5% of a biome's species, they also are able to compete more efficiently and reduce the impact on the consumer side of the ecological system by combining both consumers and producers. 

Take the largest living land animal -- African Bull Elephant. Big suckers eat 375 pounds a day. Cross referencing that with the food of other herbivorous creatures and then a selection of carnivores (all large size), I came up with a gamified figure of a being needs to eat ten times its weight in a year in biomass (for omnivores -- it is 12% for herbivores, and 7% for carnivores).

Dragons, per the MM, are about twice the size of an African Bull Elephant, and the cube square rule for mass/size would apply when determining the rough weight, so i just used the basic calc there. So, around 36 to 40k pounds for a Red Dragon. Cut out a fifth for bone, and that's a LOT of biomass to deal with. But 360,000 pounds of biomass is only about a thousand pounds a week, and dragon's are active predators, who fly, hence the massive jump given the size and kcal needed to move such a thing through the air.

Something this big would impact at about 20% of the total biomass (33% if carnivorous, 12.5% if herbivorous), based on overall existing systems, so that's where you get the yearly point of 5.1 million. That also tells me that a Dragon entering that territory would be an immense burden -- but the next question is how much area is needed to support that amount of biomass?

It is shockingly small. A temperate forest generates 256,000 pounds of biomass (including insects and plants) per square foot, or 713,687,000,000,000,000 pounds per square mile. For an Apex A-O predator, only about 10% of that is needed at most, so the territory of a dragon can be as small as a square mile without any issues. If they are Omnivorous. Carnivorous changes things dramatically, as we then have to factor in size, and that means that something this size, focused mostly on temperate grasslands and forests for a hunting space (because of the need for ungulates and related groups), we get about 10 to 20 square miles per beasty, and that's when we run i to issues of chain breakdown should an outside force alter the ecological balance.

Edit: The reason it becomes so shocking is that without the 80% of biomass from plants, you only have about 4.25% of biomass from cattle and wild animals, as a total, so you need a much larger chunk of space that such prey can survive on. Hence why I shifted Dragon to an omnivorous position -- from an evolutionary standpoint, for an animal that active with that much mass, it would make sense that they would be shifting to survive on more than a portion of 4.5% of biomass, they would need a larger capacity -- and that's before we get to brain size and intelligence as additional factors, which burn through protein and fats (two things hard to obtain in quantity from herbaceous material).

Then I had to determine what can support that kind of massive consumption, while also supporting a broader ecosystem around it (since if you don't, everything dies) and that's how I got the figure of 5.2 million pounds of biomass -- to support a broad ranging ecosystem beneath an A-O predator, you still have to have the appropriate steps down.

Now, the reason it sucked me into a maelstrom of learning is that my models in my head were still sorta stuck in some older format stuff -- the pyramid basis, essentially, which doesn't always accurately reflect actual world systems and makes computer modeling get pissy. So, I learned a whole new layer to add to my collection of knowledge about biological systems on a large scale (regional, continental, planetary) just so I could make better encounter tables. 

 Ya shouldn't have asked, huh?

 
Fascinating. Did you also look into the possibility that they might have much slower metabolic rates? That would reduce their necessary daily caloric intake. Like, for example, crocks, ‘gators, pythons, etc. only need to eat periodically, and bears can go months without food while hibernating, which dragons are known to do.

Also, I was always kinda enamored of the idea that dragons hoard because their diets, at least in part, consist of precious metals. Dragons hoard gold as a food source, like a pantry. They literally eat wealth. Had you considered that theory as well?

 
Well, for the most part I was trying to stick to the MM and MotM basis (don't have fizban), so for the general calculation I have to say no.

For my own dragons, though...

Yes.  While my dragons are not quite as long lived, they have racial memory and are longer lived than any of the people, have slow metabolisms (with an "afterburner effect" I blatantly stole directly out of the Heorot series that means they also like it cold), and they require minerals such as copper, gold, platinum, titanium, iron, and other such things in order to maintain peak form.

Oddly enough, though, that isn't how their hoards work, though. That's more like a pantry or larder, lol. It actually feeds into their breath weapons, in part, though that may change since I am still restructuring them along the weird lines I have decided on (the eastern cycle approach). I know, for example, that Dragons go through stages of life, and that all dragons are female, male, and neither at one point -- and I also discovered, rather accidentally, that they are matriarchal. Tiamaris was one of the first two to witness the coming of people, and she was very hostile to them. Her partner, Bahal, took the opposite tack. So within the racial memory there exists both points of view.

Hoards I borrowed from Sagara's concept for her "human" dragons. More a conceptual thing, abstract, instead of a concrete, physical collection.

There is a secret thing I did on the website, lol, since the final 20th level adventure in the campaign is about dragons -- I told the story of the dragons very briefly, in small snippets -- and set them up as one for each year of the site's current incarnation (so 2018 to now), with one post on the first of january each year (backdating is awesome). That's how I learned about the dragons, lol -- by just writing it out and letting it come.

All told, they aren't even a full page, but there is a lot of information in there.

Omnivorous dragons means you can have them eating trees like celery. Which is fun.

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Omnivorous dragons means you can have them eating trees like celery. Which is fun.

 It also means multiple stomachs, lol, so Mercer and CR would not approve.

I am totally broken up about it, as you can tell.

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Omnivorous dragons means you can have them eating trees like celery. Which is fun.

 
Y’mean with cream cheese spread all up and down em? 😋

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Omnivorous dragons means you can have them eating trees like celery. Which is fun.

 It also means multiple stomachs, lol, so Mercer and CR would not approve.

I am totally broken up about it, as you can tell.

 
Why would it necessitate multiple stomachs? I eat celery, and I only got 1 stomach. At least, that is, I only got 1 stomach I know of.

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Omnivorous dragons means you can have them eating trees like celery. Which is fun.

 
Y’mean with cream cheese spread all up and down em? 😋

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Omnivorous dragons means you can have them eating trees like celery. Which is fun.

 It also means multiple stomachs, lol, so Mercer and CR would not approve.

I am totally broken up about it, as you can tell.

 
Why would it necessitate multiple stomachs? I eat celery, and I only got 1 stomach. At least, that is, I only got 1 stomach I know of.

 
Ah, but you do not eat trees, which ou systems cannot handle, and so yes, there would be an additional stomach (ruminants can have as many as five!) -- and if one is digesting metals and stones and such, that's an additional one as well (Dragon Gizzards!)

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 
Ah, but you do not eat trees, which ou systems cannot handle, and so yes, there would be an additional stomach (ruminants can have as many as five!) -- and if one is digesting metals and stones and such, that's an additional one as well (Dragon Gizzards!)

 Huh.

What if a large portion of a dragon's hoard is just refined processed poop?

Quote from Wysperra >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 
Ah, but you do not eat trees, which ou systems cannot handle, and so yes, there would be an additional stomach (ruminants can have as many as five!) -- and if one is digesting metals and stones and such, that's an additional one as well (Dragon Gizzards!)

 Huh.

What if a large portion of a dragon's hoard is just refined processed poop?

 
Where do you think the loose gemstones come from?

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from Wysperra >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 
Ah, but you do not eat trees, which ou systems cannot handle, and so yes, there would be an additional stomach (ruminants can have as many as five!) -- and if one is digesting metals and stones and such, that's an additional one as well (Dragon Gizzards!)

 Huh.

What if a large portion of a dragon's hoard is just refined processed poop?

 
Where do you think the loose gemstones come from?

 I wonder where the dragon hides the toilet, or if they just do it naturally. 

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

 

 

 

 
(Dragon Gizzards!)

 Is this the King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard I've heard about?

wat?

Quote from Wysperra >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

 
Ah, but you do not eat trees, which ou systems cannot handle, and so yes, there would be an additional stomach (ruminants can have as many as five!) -- and if one is digesting metals and stones and such, that's an additional one as well (Dragon Gizzards!)

 Huh.

What if a large portion of a dragon's hoard is just refined processed poop?

 
*gets very quiet and tucks hoard under a rug*

How hard is med school?

Quote from Fry_Doodles >>

How hard is med school?

I'm sure there's a great urology joke I could make here.

Quote from Fry_Doodles >>

How hard is med school?

 I’ve heard it’s really hard.

Quote from Fry_Doodles >>

How hard is med school?

 
Very. I work at one, my job is to help train the students how to perform exams and interact with patients. Med school is very hard. That’s not to say it’s impossible, but you kinda really have to want it to make it. See, it’s not just the book learning you have to be good at, it requires emotional intelligence too, and a strong stomach. Plus a whole shed load of prerequisite education just to get in. Plus it’s hella expensive, and theirs no real guarantee of a job when you get out. And even if you do get matched somewhere, if you mess up or otherwise wash out, you’re stuck with an education you can’t use and a pile of bills you still have to pay back, so it’s not without risk. Is it worth it? That’s up to each individual to decide. Is it hard…? Yes.

Quote from Fry_Doodles >>

How hard is med school?

Assuming you manage to survive Pre-Med (I stepped out, myself), it is exceptionally difficult with a washout rate of about 60% across the board for anyone who is not masculine, cis, het, and of marked European ancestry.

And even they have about a third of all folks drop out.

That assumes either an MD or a DO.

DNP is a little easier, but more limited in where one can practice.

Psychiatry is also a little easier, but is still extremely hard and is more difficult to get a slot in a decent school.

That said, when TGD folks are asking me what they should look towards in medical education, I usually suggest a DNP (Nurse Practitioner) or PharmD (Pharmacologist) program.

NP programs are much cheaper, and the biggest benefit to them is that you can do them step by step up a well defined ladder and that, in turn, allows you to take a longer term to get there (meaning you can work as you go, and also that you can study on your own terms and take breaks).

Pharm programs have limited value in terms of job market, but if you can manage to get deeply familiar with compounding or specialty pharma, it can be quite lucrative and offer opportunities to break into research.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Fry_Doodles >>

How hard is med school?

 

Assuming you manage to survive Pre-Med (I stepped out, myself), it is exceptionally difficult with a washout rate of about 60% across the board for anyone who is not masculine, cis, het, and of marked European ancestry.

And even they have about a third of all folks drop out.

That assumes either an MD or a DO.

DNP is a little easier, but more limited in where one can practice.

Psychiatry is also a little easier, but is still extremely hard and is more difficult to get a slot in a decent school.

That said, when TGD folks are asking me what they should look towards in medical education, I usually suggest a DNP (Nurse Practitioner) or PharmD (Pharmacologist) program.

NP programs are much cheaper, and the biggest benefit to them is that you can do them step by step up a well defined ladder and that, in turn, allows you to take a longer term to get there (meaning you can work as you go, and also that you can study on your own terms and take breaks).

Pharm programs have limited value in terms of job market, but if you can manage to get deeply familiar with compounding or specialty pharma, it can be quite lucrative and offer opportunities to break into research.

 
Don’t overlook PA (Physician’s Assistant) programs. They can make almost as much as doctors, with it seems like half the educational requirements, and since those programs require a couple thousand hours on the job as an EMT or nurse or something just to get in, it’s also something you can work yourself towards.

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Fry_Doodles >>

How hard is med school?

 

Assuming you manage to survive Pre-Med (I stepped out, myself), it is exceptionally difficult with a washout rate of about 60% across the board for anyone who is not masculine, cis, het, and of marked European ancestry.

And even they have about a third of all folks drop out.

That assumes either an MD or a DO.

DNP is a little easier, but more limited in where one can practice.

Psychiatry is also a little easier, but is still extremely hard and is more difficult to get a slot in a decent school.

That said, when TGD folks are asking me what they should look towards in medical education, I usually suggest a DNP (Nurse Practitioner) or PharmD (Pharmacologist) program.

NP programs are much cheaper, and the biggest benefit to them is that you can do them step by step up a well defined ladder and that, in turn, allows you to take a longer term to get there (meaning you can work as you go, and also that you can study on your own terms and take breaks).

Pharm programs have limited value in terms of job market, but if you can manage to get deeply familiar with compounding or specialty pharma, it can be quite lucrative and offer opportunities to break into research.

 
Don’t overlook PA (Physician’s Assistant) programs. They can make almost as much as doctors, with it seems like half the educational requirements, and since those programs require a couple thousand hours on the job as an EMT or nurse or something just to get in, it’s also something you can work yourself towards.

 
oh, crap, you are right.

I owe every PA i have worked with an apology, and that's a Looooong list.

I think I tend to gloss over them because of the independent practice issue, and since I do a lot of work around Gender health, I run into that a LOT.

best get cracking on those text message apologies...