MDGA

Quote from 50thAltOfBananer >>

Oh, question, do you think taverns and the play by post forums should both have a thing on posts, or just taverns? I think I’d probably be okay with it if both, but they really do feel like the same thing sometimes-in fact, I sometimes see myself putting a lot more effort into my taverns than into my campaigns. 

I sorta do agree that Adohands should prooooobably shut down, for probably different reasons than you think (that I also will not go into here as mods will be on me in a quick burst of light). Also yes I would love more moderation in Adohands, please mods if you see this, more moderation, PLEASE 

You make a really good point here, and when I say here, I realize I should have organized my post better, but the 10th and 11th paragraph (counting one liners as paragraphs here)

Something else I’d like to say is that DnD beyond is for DnD, and we have whole other areas on the internet for stuff like Adohands. I personally use Discord, although it’s not very system-y which is what a ton of people here like.

For points 4 and 5 (realized that was easier than naming the paragraphs) I think you figured something out. Thanks for your input.

I would love more input, so if you come back to this thread and see this, feel free to give us more feedback. I think there definitely is a clique, that has secret rules, I was not part of the clique when I started but eventually I became part of it once I learned the rules. And now I honestly consider myself one of the people that makes the rules for the clique on Adohands, so I’m gonna work on maybe changing some things? Idk.

 Yeah. Same.

The one thing I disagree with is that Adohand’s should be shut down, because literally I feel like sometimes it is the only place I can talk to people without fear of them mocking me in my day-to-day life, and vent without people getting frustrated at me, and just, y’know, relax from time to time.

...That was a hell of a lot to read through. Especially since this is a club idea that I put in motion and I hadn't checked this until like 30 minutes ago. If anyone still has the stamina to read, considering this club is partly my doing, I have a point to make.

At the time of my writing this, Link has just posted comment 102, so I can't see anything past that.

My opinion is swayed by feeling, not stats or necessarily cold hearted knowledge. I don't say cold hearted to offend anyone, but its part of my argument. The  "forums becoming too tight of a group and excluding people" has not only come up today, but has also come up a lot of times before. And not to say I beat you to it, but I beat you all to it. Back in 2022 there was one Tavern, the tavern at the end of the world. Up until that point there had always only been one tavern. Always used by the same group of people, known commonly now as the OG taverners. And don't get me wrong, they invented the whole system and many were great people. But they were full of the same issues we face today- inside jokes, off topic rants, and everything was on one big thread. When I tell you no one could join in other than them because of it- which isn't completely their fault- I mean it. 

I began my forum life on forum games. Last comment wins, dice games, the odd cult or club, you all probably know the drill. It wasn't until I may quite a few friends that I started to check out the tavern. Of course, that didn't work, cause I found it very hard to get involved, as all the OG taverners had a tight network of lore, and all their characters knew each other, I I quite literally felt like I stranger trying to make conversation in a bar full of long time friends. 
I ended up setting up my own tavern in a weird show of resistance, and all the new people flocked to it cause it was new, easy to join, stuff like that. Then more people started setting up more taverns. And other places to roleplay. Every niche and every topic seemed to have its own thread. The OG taverners generally disliked it, at some point they made a PM tavern so they could keep their private storyline, which I respect. But that point in late 2022, a new generation had started and I made so many friends. 

Me and a few others who pushed for this new generation of the forums, as dramatic as that sounds, did our best to continue that ethos, of keeping everyone involved. And our roleplays got deep sure, but we always left room on the table for others to join. Hell, at one point I was at the very climax of a spider guild roleplay with Yvonne that had been going on for almost 8 months and someone decided to enter the roleplay as a beholder randomly, and we still factored them into the innovative and they changed the story line.

Part of what I'm saying is to get people to see what I mean when we say that we want to return the forums to its former glory. But what I'm also saying is that we're a community, not a standardised section of the forums. You see the way people are discouraged from joining the forums and decide we should either embrace the forums for what they are now or eliminate inside jokes. But what about the stories? What about what we make the place, rather than making sure the place fulfils its fullest potential as just a forum for off topic rants? You forget what we can do to draw people and include people and allow people to do what they need and be creative and ask questions, whilst still being the community that we are and having a great time. We did it in 2022 and we can do it again, better, this time.

You can probably tell I'm more of a fan of romanticising the past and making cheesy speeches than breaking down how if you scrutinise everything enough then it becomes a negative. Maybe that makes what I'm saying less valid, I don't know. I just think its way more simple than sometimes it seems. Not to say everyone here's negative or that people shouldn't share their opinions if they're not positive, all of you are super great I'm sure of it. And more thread diversity and general creativity on the forums means we're one set closer to solving the issue with silly/serious threads like you were all saying right?

If it really is disliked by lots of people then the acronym can be changed. But adohands is a place for people to escape their real lives and have a great time with friends and like minded roleplayers, and I'd never be one to hold people back from that, a better way is to be kind, accepting, and bloody hell be as creative as possible, its what keeps this place alive. And don't fight as much, don't look for problems with others or points to object to, have a debate thread and keep it all on there. On the other threads, just talk, or just roleplay, and don't be ******** to knew users. That's how we return the forums to its former beauty.

anyways, that's my two cents. Backed purely by logic? Probably not. Blinded by the past? Maybe like 50%. My argument is bolstered by spirit and belief and by what I've seen this place achieve, and how much more the roleplays that come out of here are than just something that dis-includes people. And please, please keep the quote chains down that was a hell of a pain to read on mobile. 

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Ok so we've talked a bit about what we dislike with modern Adohand's, but what about what we liked with past Adohand's that seems gone now?

 This is the right kind of question to be asking, thanks Gibber

Meowwwwww

uhhhhhh I liked the threads and the activity…

We could bring back mafia 

Though I’m feeling a little unsure of this idea after Caerwyns post (sorry if I spelt your name wrong, just a pain to go back and check on mobile)

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

A number of posts on this thread confirm what I have long thought about Adohands - it is, hands down, the most gatekept part of these forums.  If one does not comport to how one is “expected” to act on this subsection, they are often met with derision.  On this thread, for example, the complaints have been on folks acting “too silly,” who multiple users have said should be excluded or relegated to other places.  On others, anyone who actually wants to post something meaningful on a subject - instead of the minimal replies to increasingly long one-sentence reply chains - might get mocked for being too wordy.  

Other issues include the fact that the entire subsection of the forums is dominated by the same generally insular friend group repeatedly making inside jokes referencing other threads, so those on thread A feel excluded because they were never part of thread B.  Threads that might ostensively being on one topic being hijacks by users using the topic for a personal messaging board, thinking italicized quotes excuses off-topic discussion.  And a proliferation of taverns that have turned Adohand’s from a place where one can discuss off topic conversations to an endless stream of taverns and insular joke threads that drown out the fundamental purpose of and off-topic section.  The numerous rules on how one is “supposed” to format posts that are known to the inside community, but are a barrier to entry for new users.

What should be done?

If I were Wizards, I would probably remove this entire forum section, for reasons I will not go into on this thread.  That, obviously, will not happen.

Instead, I think Wizards should split Adohand’s into two sections - a true off topic forum dedicated to discussion and an entire forum dedicated to taverns (likely with similar rules regarding post counts as the forum games section).  That would not solve some of the cultural gatekeeping elements of this community, but it would at least create a place where true off topic threads could thrive without competing for airspace.  More moderation would also be helpful - it is abundantly clear there exists a lack of moderation on this subsection.

That, however, is all unlikely to happen.

So, what can the community do?  The community can realize that a lot of their behavior that they see as friendly constitutes micro-aggressions against new users - not even counting the active aggressions on display on this and other threads.  If folks what to make new users feel welcome, they need to stop engaging in behaviors that scream “we are an exiting friend group who have turned this section of the forum into our clubhouse.”  The clique atmosphere created here is likely a primary source of the issues folks are raising about new users feeling “shy” - it is less they feel shy, and more feel excluded without any clear path to inclusion.

Some ways folks could fix that:

1. Actually staying on topic for a thread. The constant asides and conversations make every thread feel like another social facet of the clique, making it hard for folks to break into a single thread, even if they are interested in the topic. Everything dos not need to be “topic thread plus our using this topic for socializing” - those only interested in the topic are then excluded from the part they might want to discuss.

2. Be very careful about using inside jokes - especially inside jokes referencing different threads.  Inside jokes are inherently exclusionary - and while they can be fun, they also make those on the outside feel left out.

3. Only post when you have something meaningful to contribute. Off topic posts, spam posts, posts with one word responses - all of these drown out legitimate conversation and make folks who want to have a conversation think “huh, I am here to discuss something I am interested in, but no one else is. In fact, I kind of feel insulted that I spent time on a post, and got a bunch of spam, one-word responses instead of dialogue. Guess this is not worth my time.”  This is what killed a lot of the older off topic threads that more traditionally resembled off topic threads.

4. Stop with the long post chains.  They make the website harder to read and thus turn off new users. After all, they are not yet invested in the community, and it is very easy to conclude “wow, this endless scrolling to engage in a conversation is not worth the effort.” 

5. There is a culture here of “I have to make threads” that also causes a problem. Redundant and repetitive threads because someone wants to increase their thread count drown out other topics of conversation by pushing them off the front page.  When making a new thread, one should always ask the questions: “Has someone done this before?” “Will this actually add something?” And “Am I doing this because I think others will actually be interested, or is this for my own personal status?”

If folks are actually interested in making Adohand’s more welcoming, change starts with recognizing that the fundamental culture of this subsection is a far greater problem than the perceived shyness of new users.  Change would have to start within, with some significant cultural shifts in how folks use this subsection.  Frankly, I see that as about as likely as Wizards taking any of the options outlined above - but, who knows. Maybe it will happen. 

I do want to be clear, this post is not designed to insult anyone - and my intent is to be genuinely helpful. Folks on this thread expressed a genuine desire to make the place more welcoming, and I wanted to chime in and say the hard truths people are unlikely to otherwise voice.  Sometimes saying something no one wants to give a voice to, even something a bit candid, is the best help one can provide.

With that, I am unfollowing this thread - I said my piece and think it is good advice. It is now up to y’all to do what you will.

 I know odds are that you aren’t going to reply to or even see this post, but to me, this reads as the opinions of someone deeply unfamiliar with what Adohand’s actually is and just subsists off of what they think it is without even really interacting with the community (which I feel because a lot of what you suggested are things that already exist[ed])which is not all that surprising considering the general outside opinion of Adohand’s. Additionally it feels like someone who doesn’t like how the people on Adohand’s act because it doesn’t fit with their idea of how forum users should act, which is kinda pretentious, along with the post in general being kinda preachy. 

TLDR: Hands on the table with zero knowledge 

Quote from himynamesare >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

 *Cut*

 I know odds are that you aren’t going to reply to or even see this post, but to me, this reads as the opinions of someone deeply unfamiliar with what Adohand’s actually is and just subsists off of what they think it is without even really interacting with the community (which I feel because a lot of what you suggested are things that already exist[ed])which is not all that surprising considering the general outside opinion of Adohand’s. Additionally it feels like someone who doesn’t like how the people on Adohand’s act because it doesn’t fit with their idea of how forum users should act, which is kinda pretentious, along with the post in general being kinda preachy. 

TLDR: Hands on the table with zero knowledge 

 While I disagree with some of it, he does have some valid points as well. We should make this space as welcoming for newcomers as possible since, let's be honest, people come and go a lot on this forum. So when one person leaves we need to make this place welcoming enough for another person or two to come in rather then it dwindling down over time.

Also, I don't know anyone who actually likes long quote chains even if invested in the community. You either don't care about them or hate scrolling through them.

Also also I find the concept of replying to a post talking about gatekeeping with "I disagree because you aren't active/don't interact on here" to be kinda ironic but that's a whole other thing that I don't wanna get into.

Quote from 37547283571082749127410287414237 >>

We could bring back mafia 

Quote from 37547283571082749127410287414237 >>

Though I’m feeling a little unsure of this idea after Caerwyns post (sorry if I spelt your name wrong, just a pain to go back and check on mobile)

 Well I mean as long as we keep the rules accessible and easy for new people to learn, then it should be fine. Heck I'd argue mafia could maybe even be a good way for a new forumer to ease in.

Although, we have tried to bring it back and failed before. Maybe we should Make Mafia Great Again too...

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from himynamesare >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

 *Cut*

 I know odds are that you aren’t going to reply to or even see this post, but to me, this reads as the opinions of someone deeply unfamiliar with what Adohand’s actually is and just subsists off of what they think it is without even really interacting with the community (which I feel because a lot of what you suggested are things that already exist[ed])which is not all that surprising considering the general outside opinion of Adohand’s. Additionally it feels like someone who doesn’t like how the people on Adohand’s act because it doesn’t fit with their idea of how forum users should act, which is kinda pretentious, along with the post in general being kinda preachy. 

TLDR: Hands on the table with zero knowledge 

 While I disagree with some of it, he does have some valid points as well. We should make this space as welcoming for newcomers as possible since, let's be honest, people come and go a lot on this forum. So when one person leaves we need to make this place welcoming enough for another person or two to come in rather then it dwindling down over time.

Also, I don't know anyone who actually likes long quote chains even if invested in the community. You either don't care about them or hate scrolling through them.

Also also I find the concept of replying to a post talking about gatekeeping with "I disagree because you aren't active/don't interact on here" to be kinda ironic but that's a whole other thing that I don't wanna get into.

I personally agree with Himy, although I respect the opinions given. I also want to point out that Adohand’s is a space that is dominated by a teenage population.

With your first point, I agree, but I’m not sure that you really are on this forum enough for most of these points being said.

Finally, I think talking about untowardness when you blatantly said you want this forum deleted is intriguingly ironic—I’d love to know why, and you can PM me if you’re OK with telling.

Lastly—what’re you talking about when you say new users are frequently excluded? I…have never really seen that be the case EXCEPT when one of them violates forum rules, which…perhaps aren’t enforced as strongly as they could be, but I wonder how you’d put that into action, considering this is the most ‘off-topic’ forum of them all and thus should receive a bit of leniency. 
What rules are you talking about when you say that they’re being violated?

There’s my take. TL;DR: I agree with Himy, I do note that this is an example of us being untoward towards someone ‘new’, I still would encourage you to elaborate  on your opinions if you could.

Actually, I would prefer if you asked the mods for the ‘more moderation’ point—I don’t think we specifically asked for less moderation, just it’s not given here…

(Not gonna quote it, but W DRUMMER)

The fun we have here, like Drummer says, does occasionally consist of being what other people would see as ‘untoward’: long quote chains, jumping in. 

Personally, as a user, but also as an anxious teen who struggles with finding friends, I think that Adohand’s provides a ‘safe space’ in which people can express themselves. Although this is occasionally done in ways that might be stranger to outsiders looking in, I think that this versatility (like Drummer described), the lightening it brings to anything only, and the way it shapes the forum is unique and makes it an experience for everyone.

Actually, I know this is my fourth consecutive post (quadruple-posting?), but I wanted to say something to everyone—all the Adohanders—out there. 

I feel like Adam was right with what he was saying a while back in this thread, that people don’t express themselves enough. But, although I’m not saying we don’t do it enough, I wanted to reemphasize that this is a place for EXPRESSION. You shouldn’t allow anyone to quench your fire (if the metaphor gets through, it’s not great lol), and you certainly shouldn’t cave in to others’ wants. This place is at its greatest when everyone is themself.

What I described was in no way a direct solution to any accessibility issues we have. I mentioned how we had them in the past, and how I believe that we did and can at least help solve them with kindness, actively working towards inclusion, and just making the community fun to be on again. The threads are sometimes overwhelming for new people yeah, but I’ve still met so many new people join right in the middle of things and love it, purely pulled in by how interesting and cool everything looks. Without what the forums is, as chaotic and full of life as it can be, I think it would be dull, and attract even less people. And the same thing would happen if you split Adohands into two sections. Adohands is a completely unique place on the internet which is why the creative friends and community here should be protected and managed to be accepting, and it should be allowed to attract people that have no where else to be themselves online. A place where people can make like minded friends, not a structured place for people just to post off topic threads that don’t fit in the other forums. Adohands has evolved way past its original purpose and its hard for an outsider looking in to fully understand how precious it is.

to make a cheesy analogy, it’s like a pond as become an ocean, and then people complain about the ocean not fulfilling its purpose as a pond, overstepping its boundaries, being less accessible, and harder to manage. But they forget that whole point, that the pond had become an ocean, with so much more creativity, positivity, and stories that help so many people that couldn’t get what they needed anywhere else. I know for a fact that I really needed this place and it saved me. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and I can promise you the inconvenience people feel from Adohands not being used as it was supposed to doesn’t even come close to the joy people get from what Adohands has evolved into over these years. 

Quote from DrummerBoyDragonSlayer >>

What I described was in no way a direct solution to any accessibility issues we have. I mentioned how we had them in the past, and how I believe that we did and can at least help solve them with kindness, actively working towards inclusion, and just making the community fun to be on again. The threads are sometimes overwhelming for new people yeah, but I’ve still met so many new people join right in the middle of things and love it, purely pulled in by how interesting and cool everything looks. Without what the forums is, as chaotic and full of life as it can be, I think it would be dull, and attract even less people. And the same thing would happen if you split Adohands into two sections. Adohands is a completely unique place on the internet which is why the creative friends and community here should be protected and managed to be accepting, and it should be allowed to attract people that have no where else to be themselves online. A place where people can make like minded friends, not a structured place for people just to post off topic threads that don’t fit in the other forums. Adohands has evolved way past its original purpose and its hard for an outsider looking in to fully understand how precious it is.

 

to make a cheesy analogy, it’s like a pond as become an ocean, and then people complain about the ocean not fulfilling its purpose as a pond, overstepping its boundaries, being less accessible, and harder to manage. But they forget that whole point, that the pond had become an ocean, with so much more creativity, positivity, and stories that help so many people that couldn’t get what they needed anywhere else. I know for a fact that I really needed this place and it saved me. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and I can promise you the inconvenience people feel from Adohands not being used as it was supposed to doesn’t even come close to the joy people get from what Adohands has evolved into over these years. 

 Yeah. No matter what we do, splitting Adohand’s, dissolving it, or keeping it mostly the same, some people are still going to feel left out or unincluded. Adohand’s has literally been something where I could just talk to others and forget everything that was happening irl, be it anxiety, tests, depression, autism, popularity, or anything similar. In the light of all the terrible things happening in the world (which I won’t delve into because politics), and with the news of the hantavirus outbreak, we need safe spaces. And Adohand’s, along with Forum Games (specifically LCW), has been a safe space. But I do agree with the fact that we need more moderation. RP and just threads in general have gone from having open, broad rules to having literally paragraphs of rules people have to read, because of the actions of others. Examples for the latter being Onions, and for the former being LCW and Absolutely Anything. The tavern realm has expanded, and that’s a good thing, but we can all be more inclusive from time to time.

Quote from Wes__ >>

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from himynamesare >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

 *Cut*

 I know odds are that you aren’t going to reply to or even see this post, but to me, this reads as the opinions of someone deeply unfamiliar with what Adohand’s actually is and just subsists off of what they think it is without even really interacting with the community (which I feel because a lot of what you suggested are things that already exist[ed])which is not all that surprising considering the general outside opinion of Adohand’s. Additionally it feels like someone who doesn’t like how the people on Adohand’s act because it doesn’t fit with their idea of how forum users should act, which is kinda pretentious, along with the post in general being kinda preachy. 

TLDR: Hands on the table with zero knowledge 

 While I disagree with some of it, he does have some valid points as well. We should make this space as welcoming for newcomers as possible since, let's be honest, people come and go a lot on this forum. So when one person leaves we need to make this place welcoming enough for another person or two to come in rather then it dwindling down over time.

Also, I don't know anyone who actually likes long quote chains even if invested in the community. You either don't care about them or hate scrolling through them.

Also also I find the concept of replying to a post talking about gatekeeping with "I disagree because you aren't active/don't interact on here" to be kinda ironic but that's a whole other thing that I don't wanna get into.

I personally agree with Himy, although I respect the opinions given. I also want to point out that Adohand’s is a space that is dominated by a teenage population.

With your first point, I agree, but I’m not sure that you really are on this forum enough for most of these points being said.

Finally, I think talking about untowardness when you blatantly said you want this forum deleted is intriguingly ironic—I’d love to know why, and you can PM me if you’re OK with telling.

Lastly—what’re you talking about when you say new users are frequently excluded? I…have never really seen that be the case EXCEPT when one of them violates forum rules, which…perhaps aren’t enforced as strongly as they could be, but I wonder how you’d put that into action, considering this is the most ‘off-topic’ forum of them all and thus should receive a bit of leniency. 
What rules are you talking about when you say that they’re being violated?

There’s my take. TL;DR: I agree with Himy, I do note that this is an example of us being untoward towards someone ‘new’, I still would encourage you to elaborate  on your opinions if you could.

 Uh, Wes? It's me, Gibber. Not the original commenter, who I assume isn't coming back because of the last statement in their post. Like I said, I disagree with some of their points, the need to delete Adohand's being one of them.

Unless if you were responding to the original post by quoting me who cut the original quote... Ok now I'm just confused.

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from Wes__ >>

Quote from TheMadGibber >>

Quote from himynamesare >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

 *Cut*

 I know odds are that you aren’t going to reply to or even see this post, but to me, this reads as the opinions of someone deeply unfamiliar with what Adohand’s actually is and just subsists off of what they think it is without even really interacting with the community (which I feel because a lot of what you suggested are things that already exist[ed])which is not all that surprising considering the general outside opinion of Adohand’s. Additionally it feels like someone who doesn’t like how the people on Adohand’s act because it doesn’t fit with their idea of how forum users should act, which is kinda pretentious, along with the post in general being kinda preachy. 

TLDR: Hands on the table with zero knowledge 

 While I disagree with some of it, he does have some valid points as well. We should make this space as welcoming for newcomers as possible since, let's be honest, people come and go a lot on this forum. So when one person leaves we need to make this place welcoming enough for another person or two to come in rather then it dwindling down over time.

Also, I don't know anyone who actually likes long quote chains even if invested in the community. You either don't care about them or hate scrolling through them.

Also also I find the concept of replying to a post talking about gatekeeping with "I disagree because you aren't active/don't interact on here" to be kinda ironic but that's a whole other thing that I don't wanna get into.

I personally agree with Himy, although I respect the opinions given. I also want to point out that Adohand’s is a space that is dominated by a teenage population.

With your first point, I agree, but I’m not sure that you really are on this forum enough for most of these points being said.

Finally, I think talking about untowardness when you blatantly said you want this forum deleted is intriguingly ironic—I’d love to know why, and you can PM me if you’re OK with telling.

Lastly—what’re you talking about when you say new users are frequently excluded? I…have never really seen that be the case EXCEPT when one of them violates forum rules, which…perhaps aren’t enforced as strongly as they could be, but I wonder how you’d put that into action, considering this is the most ‘off-topic’ forum of them all and thus should receive a bit of leniency. 
What rules are you talking about when you say that they’re being violated?

There’s my take. TL;DR: I agree with Himy, I do note that this is an example of us being untoward towards someone ‘new’, I still would encourage you to elaborate  on your opinions if you could.

 Uh, Wes? It's me, Gibber. Not the original commenter, who I assume isn't coming back because of the last statement in their post. Like I said, I disagree with some of their points, the need to delete Adohand's being one of them.

Unless if you were responding to the original post by quoting me who cut the original quote... Ok now I'm just confused.

 Yeah. I feel that Adohand’s needs to stay. It’s become almost a haven for a lot of us.