I recently put together a rogue with three levels of Ranger/Fey Wanderer. Favored foe and hunter's mark allow you to keep up with damage A skill proficiency and an expertise Two languages You get a fighting style And with Fey Wanderer you get dreadful strikes, a free cha skill, and your wisdom bonus added to all cha based skills For spells you get charm person from the subclass, and three other 1st level spells. I recommend hunter's mark, entangle, and either absorb elements or goodberry. If you combine with scout, and one of the two skill races you have 2/3rds of the skills and a ton of expertise.
Really depends on the niche you want to fill. Rogue adds a lot to so many classes and it's extremely flexible in that you only need STR or DEX, one of which is typically a primary or secondary stat for just about every class. Barbarian actually has really good feature synergy (STR build). Ranger pairs well of course. Bladesinger, Hexblade, or Bard can be really good hybrid casters. Fighter is great with anything that uses weapons. I really can't pick one I like best.
You get some of the most powerful defensive abilities in the game working together: rage, danger sense, uncanny dodge, unarmored defense (and the ability to use a shield). So not only would you be a much harder to hit rogue, but you can take a hit too.
Reckless Attack could be a way to proc sneak attack (advantage makes up for not using dex for the attack) but
And then you can out barbarian straight up barbarians in terms of strength with expertise in Athletics, which leads to fun potential for grappling.
A dex barb/rogue would be a competent ranged combatant with sneak attack, dex, longbow/heavy crossbow proficiency, and the ability to create advantage on attacks
Some subclass combos like zealot/soulknife or Ancestral Guardian/Mastermind give you really unique options for helping the team and roleplay
I think the biggest drawback would be the weakness of most barbarians and rogues: wis and char saving throws. It would suck for a 20 AC supertank on you team to be turned against you.
There would also be a few levels where you might feel underpowered for the damage you deal, especially compared to really optimized and feat heavy builds. But that starts go away as those sneak attack dice pile up.
Im a little stuck as to how that works. Do you just dip Bladesinger a little for spell slots, spells, and blade song?
You can really do it however you want it. You definitely want Absorb Elements, Find Familiar and Shield, and I would take the new Silvery Barbs spell as a Rogue spell. You want to get find familiar as a wizard since it is a ritual. You obviously want Booming Blade too. I would also get a ranged cantrip, I personally like Chill Touch the best, but some like Toll The Dead or Fiebolt.
I would always start with Rogue for the extra proficiency. After that I usually go 2 levels of bladesinger then 4 levels of Rogue. I would also start with an odd intelligence (15 most likely) and boost to 16 with Fey Touched or Shadow Touched at level 4 Rogue, although 17 boosted to 18 is an option too.
At that point you are an Arcane Trickster 4/Bladesinger 2.
From here you can go Rogue all the way, Wizard all the way or a mix and have a really good character. Here are some good jumping off points:
- Good stop points for Wizard:
2: You have bladesong, you have ritual casting, you have the extra weapon proficiency (probably in whip).
6: Best Extra Attack in the Game
10: Song of Defense (for when all else fails)
Good Stop Points for Rogue:
To start with, if you want more Rogue than 4 Rogue levels I would take shadow touched in this case at Rogue 4 and pick up Cause Fear. With your wizard levels you will always have higher level slots than you have known spells Cause Fear upcasts well and the movement restrictions of frightened work very well with cunning action.
4: You get a feat (which should be a casting half feat)
5: +1d6 Sneak attack. You also get uncanny dodge, but with Shield and bladesong I don't see you using it a whole lot.
6: 2 more expertise
7: +1d6 and Evasion. This is awesome when combined with absorb elements.
Yeah, I guess I don't see why you would bother going rogue at all if you don't mostly go all in on it. Its the only way to build up enough sneak attack dice to be worthwhile.
Wizards in general do more damage in the short term just due to spell casting. The point of a rogue is that they are hitting with a single more powerful from the first encounter through the last. But part of Wizards doing more damage is their higher spell slots, which really gets sidetracked by dipping arcane trickster.
There just doesn't seem to be a mechanical reason to mix rogue with bladesinger if it isn't mostly rogue
Yeah, I guess I don't see why you would bother going rogue at all if you don't mostly go all in on it. Its the only way to build up enough sneak attack dice to be worthwhile.
Wizards in general do more damage in the short term just due to spell casting. The point of a rogue is that they are hitting with a single more powerful from the first encounter through the last. But part of Wizards doing more damage is their higher spell slots, which really gets sidetracked by dipping arcane trickster.
There just doesn't seem to be a mechanical reason to mix rogue with bladesinger if it isn't mostly rogue
Cunning action and steady aim come at levels 2 and 3 and they are a big deal, as is expertise from level1. This is particularly true because expertise in athletics can make you pretty good at grapple and shove, even with an 8 strength. That can come in very useful as a melee character like a bladesinger and combine with your advantage on acrobatics in bladesong and 16+ dexterity means you have a character with both these covered, great for vaulting, climbing, walking a tightrope etc.
You're going to be maxing Cha for your Hexblade, so you'll have a healthy bonus to initiative. You'll have your accursed specter to use as an enemy-of-your-enemy to get sneak attack, and if you're soloing the enemy, you have sneak attack. You have double the chances to land sneak attack from Thirsting Blade, and can even sneak attack off of your BB/GFB cantrips. You have shield proficiency and always have a +1 Rapier at your fingertips.
Phantom Rogue/Alchemist Artificer. Why? (assuming only a 3 level dip into Artificer)
All the tools and proficiency. "Whispers of the Dead" allows you to learn tool proficiency while "The Right Tool for the Job" allows you to create said tools.
Magic weapons at MINIMUM level 3 for an enhanced true strike (1 level rogue/2 level Artificer) magic daggers that are +1 and return after a hit? yes, please.
Wails from the Grave + Green-Flame Blade. Meh I found it interesting that 1 hit could target 3 creatures RAW
Experimental Elixir: heals, increases movement, increased Ac, 1 bonus to rolls, FLIGHT, but the best of all is number 6. non-concentration Alter self on a 10 min timer.
Adaptable Spell list. Change what you need for a mission daily. Or use them all to make Elixirs in advance (just prepare your rituals instead just in case)
HOMUNCULUS SERVANT for instant Sneak attack advantage. This also opens up the idea of a ranged rogue doing two ranged attacks (attack action + bonus action from the HS) from two different locations. "SNIPERS everywhere"
What would you consider to be the best multiclass for a Rogue? This could be a power build or just an interesting fun build.
Rogue (any archetype), with 3 levels in Armorer. Infiltrator armor grants you advantage on Stealth checks. Homunculus Servant can take the Help action, as well as performing non-combat menial tasks. The Infusions are up to you. Choose what fits the concept of your character, though you can't go wrong with Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Weapon, or Enhanced Arcane Focus.
I say play what's fun, but as a fun damage dealer (something that could run with a serious party, I'd hope):
I like the idea of 5 levels in Ranger, preferably with one of that add-a-dice-of-damage subclasses (I picked Swarmkeeper because I also like the movement options from the Swarm, the Mage Hand, and the general coolness).
From level 5 Ranger/1 Rogue onwards (i.e. 5 levels backwards in Rogue), you are down 2d6 or 3d6 of sneak attack (it alternates each level).
You get effectively 2d6 just from your second attack (assuming something like a hand-crossbow and +4 damage). You get another d6 from Swarmkeeper and possibly 2 more d6 from Hunter's Mark.Thats 3d6 to 5d6 for the cost of the 2d6 to 3d6 lost in Sneak.
You also have a more reliable Sneak Attack with two attacks and +2 ranged to-hit from Ranger's fighting style. Even without Hunter's Mark (which really should be up more often than not, but sure), and depending on how often you were expecting to get a reaction shot, that should out-damage the single-class Rogue.
And finally you get quite a lot of versatility from spells, including a bonus-action heal with Healing Spirit (to get comrades up before they make another death save, sometimes mutliple times - in the right fight it can be clutch) and the always-insane Pass Without Trace for +10 stealth on the whole party.
That last spell suddenly makes Assassin a lot more viable, but I like Arcane Trickster just to keep adding some more utiity options. It's cool.
My level 6 Kobold Flinch is over here (forum post).
What would you consider to be the best multiclass for a Rogue? This could be a power build or just an interesting fun build.
fighter battlemaster with brace manoeuvre to use sneak attack also on opponent's turn when they come into range.
for fun artiticer 2 for homunculous or 3 for battlesmith or beastmaster ranger as a gnome/halfling for a sneak attack ally and even mount.
I recently put together a rogue with three levels of Ranger/Fey Wanderer.
Favored foe and hunter's mark allow you to keep up with damage
A skill proficiency and an expertise
Two languages
You get a fighting style
And with Fey Wanderer you get dreadful strikes, a free cha skill, and your wisdom bonus added to all cha based skills
For spells you get charm person from the subclass, and three other 1st level spells. I recommend hunter's mark, entangle, and either absorb elements or goodberry.
If you combine with scout, and one of the two skill races you have 2/3rds of the skills and a ton of expertise.
Impossible to say without a definition of "best" multiclass.
I guess "best", on average, to fit in with a random adventure in a random party that you consider could be powerful or interesting and fun.
You have a definition. Try that one and explain why you think the one you choose is the best
The original poster left it open to interpretation on purpose ("This could be a power build or just an interesting fun build.").
Half-orc War Cleric/Assassin (STR based). Because I like it. Despite the fact I am usually dead against MC at all.
Really depends on the niche you want to fill. Rogue adds a lot to so many classes and it's extremely flexible in that you only need STR or DEX, one of which is typically a primary or secondary stat for just about every class. Barbarian actually has really good feature synergy (STR build). Ranger pairs well of course. Bladesinger, Hexblade, or Bard can be really good hybrid casters. Fighter is great with anything that uses weapons. I really can't pick one I like best.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Again, you need to define what you mean to make any answer relevant. Otherwise the answer could literally be "any of them".
That's not a definition. The question is pointless and impossible to answer without a definition. How long is a string?
My money is on a 3-4 level dip into Barb.
I think the biggest drawback would be the weakness of most barbarians and rogues: wis and char saving throws. It would suck for a 20 AC supertank on you team to be turned against you.
There would also be a few levels where you might feel underpowered for the damage you deal, especially compared to really optimized and feat heavy builds. But that starts go away as those sneak attack dice pile up.
Arcane-Trickster/Bladesinger
Im a little stuck as to how that works. Do you just dip Bladesinger a little for spell slots, spells, and blade song?
You can really do it however you want it. You definitely want Absorb Elements, Find Familiar and Shield, and I would take the new Silvery Barbs spell as a Rogue spell. You want to get find familiar as a wizard since it is a ritual. You obviously want Booming Blade too. I would also get a ranged cantrip, I personally like Chill Touch the best, but some like Toll The Dead or Fiebolt.
I would always start with Rogue for the extra proficiency. After that I usually go 2 levels of bladesinger then 4 levels of Rogue. I would also start with an odd intelligence (15 most likely) and boost to 16 with Fey Touched or Shadow Touched at level 4 Rogue, although 17 boosted to 18 is an option too.
At that point you are an Arcane Trickster 4/Bladesinger 2.
From here you can go Rogue all the way, Wizard all the way or a mix and have a really good character. Here are some good jumping off points:
- Good stop points for Wizard:
2: You have bladesong, you have ritual casting, you have the extra weapon proficiency (probably in whip).
6: Best Extra Attack in the Game
10: Song of Defense (for when all else fails)
Good Stop Points for Rogue:
To start with, if you want more Rogue than 4 Rogue levels I would take shadow touched in this case at Rogue 4 and pick up Cause Fear. With your wizard levels you will always have higher level slots than you have known spells Cause Fear upcasts well and the movement restrictions of frightened work very well with cunning action.
4: You get a feat (which should be a casting half feat)
5: +1d6 Sneak attack. You also get uncanny dodge, but with Shield and bladesong I don't see you using it a whole lot.
6: 2 more expertise
7: +1d6 and Evasion. This is awesome when combined with absorb elements.
11: Reliable Talent.
Of the two wizard has more combat power.
Yeah, I guess I don't see why you would bother going rogue at all if you don't mostly go all in on it. Its the only way to build up enough sneak attack dice to be worthwhile.
Wizards in general do more damage in the short term just due to spell casting. The point of a rogue is that they are hitting with a single more powerful from the first encounter through the last. But part of Wizards doing more damage is their higher spell slots, which really gets sidetracked by dipping arcane trickster.
There just doesn't seem to be a mechanical reason to mix rogue with bladesinger if it isn't mostly rogue
Cunning action and steady aim come at levels 2 and 3 and they are a big deal, as is expertise from level1. This is particularly true because expertise in athletics can make you pretty good at grapple and shove, even with an 8 strength. That can come in very useful as a melee character like a bladesinger and combine with your advantage on acrobatics in bladesong and 16+ dexterity means you have a character with both these covered, great for vaulting, climbing, walking a tightrope etc.
Hexblade PoB 6 / Swashbuckler 3
You're going to be maxing Cha for your Hexblade, so you'll have a healthy bonus to initiative. You'll have your accursed specter to use as an enemy-of-your-enemy to get sneak attack, and if you're soloing the enemy, you have sneak attack. You have double the chances to land sneak attack from Thirsting Blade, and can even sneak attack off of your BB/GFB cantrips. You have shield proficiency and always have a +1 Rapier at your fingertips.
Phantom Rogue/Alchemist Artificer. Why? (assuming only a 3 level dip into Artificer)
Rogue (any archetype), with 3 levels in Armorer. Infiltrator armor grants you advantage on Stealth checks. Homunculus Servant can take the Help action, as well as performing non-combat menial tasks. The Infusions are up to you. Choose what fits the concept of your character, though you can't go wrong with Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Weapon, or Enhanced Arcane Focus.
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
I say play what's fun, but as a fun damage dealer (something that could run with a serious party, I'd hope):
I like the idea of 5 levels in Ranger, preferably with one of that add-a-dice-of-damage subclasses (I picked Swarmkeeper because I also like the movement options from the Swarm, the Mage Hand, and the general coolness).
From level 5 Ranger/1 Rogue onwards (i.e. 5 levels backwards in Rogue), you are down 2d6 or 3d6 of sneak attack (it alternates each level).
You get effectively 2d6 just from your second attack (assuming something like a hand-crossbow and +4 damage). You get another d6 from Swarmkeeper and possibly 2 more d6 from Hunter's Mark.Thats 3d6 to 5d6 for the cost of the 2d6 to 3d6 lost in Sneak.
You also have a more reliable Sneak Attack with two attacks and +2 ranged to-hit from Ranger's fighting style. Even without Hunter's Mark (which really should be up more often than not, but sure), and depending on how often you were expecting to get a reaction shot, that should out-damage the single-class Rogue.
And finally you get quite a lot of versatility from spells, including a bonus-action heal with Healing Spirit (to get comrades up before they make another death save, sometimes mutliple times - in the right fight it can be clutch) and the always-insane Pass Without Trace for +10 stealth on the whole party.
That last spell suddenly makes Assassin a lot more viable, but I like Arcane Trickster just to keep adding some more utiity options. It's cool.
My level 6 Kobold Flinch is over here (forum post).
...and in my heart. :)