Chill Touch isn't on the Druid spell-list, and it isn't actually that cold (at least not cold enough to do cold damage, since it's necrotic).
Maybe hes thinking about frostbite?
ever heard of circle of spores
In these types of discussions we don't talk about sub classe. Especially since spore is one of the weakest.
lol. Spores is not weak at all. It's super tanky with symbiotic entity giving you massive amounts of temp HP, and it has BY FAR the best spell list of any druid subclass.
Edit: It's weak IF you try to play it as a martial/melee class after the first few levels, but that's not the strength of the subclass.
Guidance is incredible, but Create bonfire is really useful. It works not just as an attack but also as a wall. Works really well indoors, especially in 5ft wide corridors. Better with 2 casters because then you can take a 10ft wide corridor.
Chill Touch isn't on the Druid spell-list, and it isn't actually that cold (at least not cold enough to do cold damage, since it's necrotic).
Maybe hes thinking about frostbite?
ever heard of circle of spores
In these types of discussions we don't talk about sub classe. Especially since spore is one of the weakest.
lol. Spores is not weak at all. It's super tanky with symbiotic entity giving you massive amounts of temp HP, and it has BY FAR the best spell list of any druid subclass.
Edit: It's weak IF you try to play it as a martial/melee class after the first few levels, but that's not the strength of the subclass.
That's kind of what makes it the weakest. After the 1st few levels it's not recommended to go into melee anymore. So your level 2 abilities are basically useless now. aside from the temporary hit points.
Halo of scores is a constitution save, With no half damage.
Symbiotic entity is melee only.
Your level 6 ability is practically melee range.
Yes. At level 10 you can throw your spores, but you only have 1 reaction. And at that point you want to use it for your level 6 ability.
Thorn whip similarly raises the question, "Why would I want that attacker closer?" :)
Because stuff like Eldritch Knight's level 7 War Magic - when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Lightning Lure and Grasp of Hadar (eldritch invocation) allow the same thing. But that's multiple different classes entirely.
- - - - - -
I'm going to be one of those people now... everything has it's place and some things can easily be more useful than others depending on the situation.
BUT, I do have personal opinions. Honestly, I really love all of the elemental stuff: Gust, Mold Earth, Produce Flame, Shape Water. You all know where this is going.
Chill Touch isn't on the Druid spell-list, and it isn't actually that cold (at least not cold enough to do cold damage, since it's necrotic).
Maybe hes thinking about frostbite?
ever heard of circle of spores
In these types of discussions we don't talk about sub classe. Especially since spore is one of the weakest.
lol. Spores is not weak at all. It's super tanky with symbiotic entity giving you massive amounts of temp HP, and it has BY FAR the best spell list of any druid subclass.
Edit: It's weak IF you try to play it as a martial/melee class after the first few levels, but that's not the strength of the subclass.
That's kind of what makes it the weakest. After the 1st few levels it's not recommended to go into melee anymore. So your level 2 abilities are basically useless now. aside from the temporary hit points.
Halo of scores is a constitution save, With no half damage.
Symbiotic entity is melee only.
Your level 6 ability is practically melee range.
Yes. At level 10 you can throw your spores, but you only have 1 reaction. And at that point you want to use it for your level 6 ability.
the only good feature is the last one.
Yea some of the features are bad (more situational than bad TBH). But it still has super strong features that on their own add up to a very good subclass-- powerful, thematic, and fun. Animate dead on a druid is stupid good, especially with skeletons throwing your magic stones. I've played spores druid in 2 full campaigns that went into the teens, and especially in the 2nd campaign when I really understood what it's good at, spores druid can be the party superstar. Nigh unkillable with all the temp HP, undead zombies that hold the front line, skeletons throwing stones in the back. Plus whatever spell you want to concentrate on.
Chill Touch isn't on the Druid spell-list, and it isn't actually that cold (at least not cold enough to do cold damage, since it's necrotic).
Maybe hes thinking about frostbite?
ever heard of circle of spores
In these types of discussions we don't talk about sub classe. Especially since spore is one of the weakest.
lol. Spores is not weak at all. It's super tanky with symbiotic entity giving you massive amounts of temp HP, and it has BY FAR the best spell list of any druid subclass.
Edit: It's weak IF you try to play it as a martial/melee class after the first few levels, but that's not the strength of the subclass.
That's kind of what makes it the weakest. After the 1st few levels it's not recommended to go into melee anymore. So your level 2 abilities are basically useless now. aside from the temporary hit points.
Halo of scores is a constitution save, With no half damage.
Symbiotic entity is melee only.
Your level 6 ability is practically melee range.
Yes. At level 10 you can throw your spores, but you only have 1 reaction. And at that point you want to use it for your level 6 ability.
the only good feature is the last one.
Yea some of the features are bad (more situational than bad TBH). But it still has super strong features that on their own add up to a very good subclass-- powerful, thematic, and fun. Animate dead on a druid is stupid good, especially with skeletons throwing your magic stones. I've played spores druid in 2 full campaigns that went into the teens, and especially in the 2nd campaign when I really understood what it's good at, spores druid can be the party superstar. Nigh unkillable with all the temp HP, undead zombies that hold the front line, skeletons throwing stones in the back. Plus whatever spell you want to concentrate on.
What makes a class feature good? I would say how often you can and will use it. When you get down to it, you don't use the spores abilities that often. You even said so yourself.
Level 2 features you use constantly. Symbiotic Entity you use for the temp HP. Massive amounts 2x per short rest. Who cares about the melee? Circle Spells-- again Spores has by far the best spell list of any druid. Fantastic attack cantrip. Blindness/Deafness is a great debuff (non-concentration). Animate dead is amazing. Gaseous form can be very useful. A lot of good stuff. Spell lists are important. Spellcasting is the strongest thing you have, and this makes it better.
Level 6- there are a few ways you can maximize the effectivness of this feature. You can charm small animals and have them hang round you. When they die from AoE's, you can use Fungal Infestation on them. There's also Giant Insect spell which you can use to make insects that might be valid targets depending on how your DM rules the order of operations of them dying vs shrinking.
Level 10 improves your action economy by letting you use halo of spores. This one is meh, but it's some free damage. Or you can use it to kill animals around you to make your free zombies.
Level 2 features you use constantly. Symbiotic Entity you use for the temp HP. Massive amounts 2x per short rest. Who cares about the melee? Circle Spells-- again Spores has by far the best spell list of any druid. Fantastic attack cantrip. Blindness/Deafness is a great debuff (non-concentration). Animate dead is amazing. Gaseous form can be very useful. A lot of good stuff. Spell lists are important. Spellcasting is the strongest thing you have, and this makes it better.
Level 6- there are a few ways you can maximize the effectivness of this feature. You can charm small animals and have them hang round you. When they die from AoE's, you can use Fungal Infestation on them. There's also Giant Insect spell which you can use to make insects that might be valid targets depending on how your DM rules the order of operations of them dying vs shrinking.
Level 10 improves your action economy by letting you use halo of spores. This one is meh, but it's some free damage. Or you can use it to kill animals around you to make your free zombies.
Level 14 is fantastic.
Okay, I am not talking about the spell list and never did. (Side note: B/D us bad because it is a con save and those you want to target most likely has a good con save)
All your abilities are short range, and I mean very short range. So one has to come up with a way (not intended) just to get proper use out of them.
As I had said the ONLY good thing is the temp hp. And that is not a good solid reason to choose this.
And most games do not get to 14th level. So no matter how good it is. It's useless as well.
The fact that you don't think blindness/deafness is good makes me question if you know what you're talking about. Yea, the con save is somewhat of a down side, but the upside is that it's NOT CONCENTRATION. Druids are very limited on non-concentration debuffs (mostly high level spells like bones of earth or transmute rock). Also, this spell is invaluable against spellcasting monsters which often do not have very high con saves (many cases +0-2 even at CR 9) and require sight for many of their most potent spells. Let me know if you think blindness/deafness sucks when you face something like an abjurer or evoker (both +2 con save) that can do things like upcast banishment on your party or hit you with a chain lighting.
" I am not talking about the spell list and never did." Okay, well the spell list is a big part of the subclass, so you can't just not consider it when you grade the subclass. The temp HP from symbiotic entity and the spell list alone are in fact solid reasons to pick spores.
Chill Touch isn't on the Druid spell-list, and it isn't actually that cold (at least not cold enough to do cold damage, since it's necrotic).
ever heard of circle of spores
I forgot Circle of Spores gets it, though I'm not sure how relevant that is to the thread since that's only a single sub-class; plus even on spores, at higher levels you've got better ways to deal damage, and at earlier levels you can actually do more by going in for melee.
While it's off topic, I actually think Circle of Spores is alright for melee at later levels; the key things to remember is that even if it's not where you want them to be, they can still end up there, as enemies may force close range, or you might need to go in close to help an ally, so it's always better to have options, plus if you can layer on other weapon boosts such as picking up Hex (using Magic Initiate (Warlock) or similar, which could also get you Green Flame Blade) so you can actually get a pretty decent amount of combo damage going on top of your 10 foot spores damage. Again, it's not where you want to be, but you can still mess stuff up in melee if you have to.
The fact that you don't think blindness/deafness is good makes me question if you know what you're talking about. Yea, the con save is somewhat of a down side, but the upside is that it's NOT CONCENTRATION. Druids are very limited on non-concentration debuffs (mostly high level spells like bones of earth or transmute rock). Also, this spell is invaluable against spellcasting monsters which often do not have very high con saves (many cases +0-2 even at CR 9) and require sight for many of their most potent spells. Let me know if you think blindness/deafness sucks when you face something like an abjurer or evoker (both +2 con save) that can do things like upcast banishment on your party or hit you with a chain lighting.
" I am not talking about the spell list and never did." Okay, well the spell list is a big part of the subclass, so you can't just not consider it when you grade the subclass. The temp HP from symbiotic entity and the spell list alone are in fact solid reasons to pick spores.
Did you read the whole post or just stop half way through? The blind condition is great for fighting melee creatures. And considering that you most likely are going against non spell casters, the spell casting argument is kinda niche.
Let's look at the spells.
B/D - wizard spell
Gentle repose - wizard spell
Animate dead -wizard spell
Gaseous form -wizard spell
Blight -base druid spell and wizard
Confusion -base druid and wizard
Cloudkill -wizard spell
Contagion -base druid spell
All but one can be taken by the wizard, which (if we are talking about making minions) can do necromancy better. So again the only thing going for spore druid is the temp HP.
Which also let's break down that ability. If you want the benefits it provides then you have to use it in combat most of the time. It takes a full action to use and the druid doesn't have many bonus action options. Also you are using wild shape. Let's take a look at what you are competing against with 8 temp hp, when you get this ability. (And let's throw you in melee range too, just to be fair) normal wild shape hp can be healed but it's like temp hp in a way.
Base druid: wolf-ac is a bit lower than yours but you get 11 hp with pact tactics.
Moon druid. Brown bear- lower ac but 34 hp and multi attack.
I don't think that the spore druid can ever get more hp than the moon druid. It might out pace the base druid. And you are giving up the utility of what the base wild shape can bring.
The fact that you don't think blindness/deafness is good makes me question if you know what you're talking about. Yea, the con save is somewhat of a down side, but the upside is that it's NOT CONCENTRATION. Druids are very limited on non-concentration debuffs (mostly high level spells like bones of earth or transmute rock). Also, this spell is invaluable against spellcasting monsters which often do not have very high con saves (many cases +0-2 even at CR 9) and require sight for many of their most potent spells. Let me know if you think blindness/deafness sucks when you face something like an abjurer or evoker (both +2 con save) that can do things like upcast banishment on your party or hit you with a chain lighting.
" I am not talking about the spell list and never did." Okay, well the spell list is a big part of the subclass, so you can't just not consider it when you grade the subclass. The temp HP from symbiotic entity and the spell list alone are in fact solid reasons to pick spores.
Did you read the whole post or just stop half way through? The blind condition is great for fighting melee creatures. And considering that you most likely are going against non spell casters, the spell casting argument is kinda niche.
Let's look at the spells.
B/D - wizard spell
Gentle repose - wizard spell
Animate dead -wizard spell
Gaseous form -wizard spell
Blight -base druid spell and wizard
Confusion -base druid and wizard
Cloudkill -wizard spell
Contagion -base druid spell
All but one can be taken by the wizard, which (if we are talking about making minions) can do necromancy better. So again the only thing going for spore druid is the temp HP.
Which also let's break down that ability. If you want the benefits it provides then you have to use it in combat most of the time. It takes a full action to use and the druid doesn't have many bonus action options. Also you are using wild shape. Let's take a look at what you are competing against with 8 temp hp, when you get this ability. (And let's throw you in melee range too, just to be fair) normal wild shape hp can be healed but it's like temp hp in a way.
Base druid: wolf-ac is a bit lower than yours but you get 11 hp with pact tactics.
Moon druid. Brown bear- lower ac but 34 hp and multi attack.
I don't think that the spore druid can ever get more hp than the moon druid. It might out pace the base druid. And you are giving up the utility of what the base wild shape can bring.
You're missing a few key points. Firstly, after the first few levels there is basically no point in waiting until combat to activate SE. You use it ASAP out of combat and get the temp HP (which last all day unlike the 10 min duration on the melee bonus). So you always go into combat with the temp HP and never waste your action unless it's to refresh it. This also lets you roll-over SE temp Hp when you short rest. Often times you'll have 3x the temp hp between rests when you need it.
Secondly, in terms of purely soaking up damage, wild shape is fine but has serious downsides. It locks you out of casting spells (until level 18). This is huge. No absorb elements when you eat a fireball. No healing up your teammates. No dropping a key control spell at the right moment in the middle of a combat or recasting a summon spell or whatever. The limitation of being unable to cast while in wild shape is so sever that it's almost pointless to compare them. And as you said, the AC of beasts are generally super low. So their HP gets chewed through a lot faster than symbiotic entity.
As far as the spell list goes, your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of the spell list. The fact that the spore circle spells include a lot of wizard spells that other druids don't get is GOOD for spores. It expands what the base druid is capable of doing.
Can wizards make better undead? Sure, they can with the school of necromancy or higher level necromancy spells. But druids can do a lot of things wizards can't, and none of this changes the fact that zombies and skeletons are still very useful. Also, wizards don't get magic stone which is very nice combo'd with skeletons. And one final thing, wizard necromancy has a lot of baggage that druid necromancy doesn't have. If you're in a party with lawful good players, paladins, clerics, etc, a wizard raising undead is going to cause a lot of strife.
Wow I started a massive debate about circle of spores with 4 words
Pretty sure Brrrr isnt a word ;-D
Also, I'm surprised Thorn Whip is so far behind on the favorites.. don't get me wrong, Guidance is golden.. but free pull on hit is great in tandem with all your Area Denial spells. It should easily be #2 on the list
"As far as the spell list goes, your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of the spell list. The fact that the spore circle spells include a lot of wizard spells that other druids don't get is GOOD for spores. It expands what the base druid is capable of doing."
You missed the point. The class features that you get from the wizard is better than the class features you get from the spore AND you can get the same spells.
"Can wizards make better undead? Sure, they can with the school of necromancy or higher level necromancy spells. But druids can do a lot of things wizards can't, and none of this changes the fact that zombies and skeletons are still very useful. Also, wizards don't get magic stone which is very nice combo'd with skeletons. And one final thing, wizard necromancy has a lot of baggage that druid necromancy doesn't have. If you're in a party with lawful good players, paladins, clerics, etc, a wizard raising undead is going to cause a lot of strife. "
The spore 6th level IS raising the dead. So I don't see the difference between playing a spore and a wizard when it comes to alignment.
Also magic stone and skeleton combo is bonus action dependent. Taking that both require the use of your bonus action. So depending your gm it will take 2 turns at minimum to throw the stones.
Wow I started a massive debate about circle of spores with 4 words
Pretty sure Brrrr isnt a word ;-D
Also, I'm surprised Thorn Whip is behind on the favorites.. don't get me wrong, Guidance is golden.. but free pull on hit is great in tandem with all your Area Denial spells. It should easily be #2 on the list
I think Thorn Whip is awesome. But it has a limit on the size of the target where Eldritch Blast + Grasp of Hadar has no limit. But that also requires more resources (invocation) to accomplish.
Also the thing about Guidance is that you technically still have to wait until the recipient uses their ability check, since it is concentration. But it's only for a maximum of one minute which in the grand scheme of things makes very little difference. Of course most cases that are too fast for multiple people to benefit would likely count as a saving throw anyway, which Guidance does absolutely nothing for.
Wow I started a massive debate about circle of spores with 4 words
Pretty sure Brrrr isnt a word ;-D
Also, I'm surprised Thorn Whip is behind on the favorites.. don't get me wrong, Guidance is golden.. but free pull on hit is great in tandem with all your Area Denial spells. It should easily be #2 on the list
I think Thorn Whip is awesome. But it has a limit on the size of the target where Eldritch Blast + Grasp of Hadar has no limit. But that also requires more resources (invocation) to accomplish.
Also the thing about Guidance is that you technically still have to wait until the recipient uses their ability check, since it is concentration. But it's only for a maximum of one minute which in the grand scheme of things makes very little difference. Of course most cases that are too fast for multiple people to benefit would likely count as a saving throw anyway, which Guidance does absolutely nothing for.
Oh don't get me wrong, like all cantrips there are limits, and the use of Guidance is no exception.... but the hype and "this is the best choice" opinion of the spell makes sense to me, and I can see why it's the go to for most players.
Personally, I go with Shape Water over Guidance for my non-combat cantrip at level 1, but there's a lot more daily use for Guidance on a typical session than shape water.
As for Thorn Whip having a size restriction, this can obviously be a limitation.. but because I can't even imagine a humanoid creature using Thorn Whip to pull a huge or gigantic Dragon towards him (let alone a Large creature like an Allosaurus, which is technically doable), I'm not too bothered.
Thorn whip has been hurt a lot by power creep. Telekinetic feat, Crusher, swarmkeeper shove, etc. Vortex Warp is insane too. There's a lot more ways to displace enemies.
I like Thorn Whip, but the main problem with it is that it requires either a bit of setup or some good teamwork to really get the most out of it; it can be lethal in combination with anything else that can push or pull in order to drag an enemy through Spike Growth or similar area effects that deal damage as a target enters them (or moves through them by any means). That said, since the Druid may be the one setting up the area in the first place, often it's better for the push/pull effects to be on other players, though it's not bad to have one of your own for later rounds (or first round if you can setup in advance).
Personally though I like it more on a Ranger than a Druid, but that may be a bit biased as I have a build I really like created around the idea of using Thorn Whip + Gathered Swarm to pull an enemy into Polearm Master reaction attack range, as it could still give me two attacks for a melee focused character if it can't get into range. Not really relevant to the Druid discussion, but I like it. 😁
lol. Spores is not weak at all. It's super tanky with symbiotic entity giving you massive amounts of temp HP, and it has BY FAR the best spell list of any druid subclass.
Edit: It's weak IF you try to play it as a martial/melee class after the first few levels, but that's not the strength of the subclass.
Guidance is incredible, but Create bonfire is really useful. It works not just as an attack but also as a wall. Works really well indoors, especially in 5ft wide corridors. Better with 2 casters because then you can take a 10ft wide corridor.
That's kind of what makes it the weakest. After the 1st few levels it's not recommended to go into melee anymore. So your level 2 abilities are basically useless now. aside from the temporary hit points.
Halo of scores is a constitution save, With no half damage.
Symbiotic entity is melee only.
Your level 6 ability is practically melee range.
Yes. At level 10 you can throw your spores, but you only have 1 reaction. And at that point you want to use it for your level 6 ability.
the only good feature is the last one.
I don’t care what anyone says, thorn whip is one of my favorite cantrips.
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I also very much enjoy produce flame.
Because stuff like Eldritch Knight's level 7 War Magic - when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Lightning Lure and Grasp of Hadar (eldritch invocation) allow the same thing. But that's multiple different classes entirely.
- - - - - -
I'm going to be one of those people now... everything has it's place and some things can easily be more useful than others depending on the situation.
BUT, I do have personal opinions. Honestly, I really love all of the elemental stuff: Gust, Mold Earth, Produce Flame, Shape Water. You all know where this is going.
Yea some of the features are bad (more situational than bad TBH). But it still has super strong features that on their own add up to a very good subclass-- powerful, thematic, and fun. Animate dead on a druid is stupid good, especially with skeletons throwing your magic stones. I've played spores druid in 2 full campaigns that went into the teens, and especially in the 2nd campaign when I really understood what it's good at, spores druid can be the party superstar. Nigh unkillable with all the temp HP, undead zombies that hold the front line, skeletons throwing stones in the back. Plus whatever spell you want to concentrate on.
What makes a class feature good? I would say how often you can and will use it. When you get down to it, you don't use the spores abilities that often. You even said so yourself.
Level 2 features you use constantly. Symbiotic Entity you use for the temp HP. Massive amounts 2x per short rest. Who cares about the melee? Circle Spells-- again Spores has by far the best spell list of any druid. Fantastic attack cantrip. Blindness/Deafness is a great debuff (non-concentration). Animate dead is amazing. Gaseous form can be very useful. A lot of good stuff. Spell lists are important. Spellcasting is the strongest thing you have, and this makes it better.
Level 6- there are a few ways you can maximize the effectivness of this feature. You can charm small animals and have them hang round you. When they die from AoE's, you can use Fungal Infestation on them. There's also Giant Insect spell which you can use to make insects that might be valid targets depending on how your DM rules the order of operations of them dying vs shrinking.
Level 10 improves your action economy by letting you use halo of spores. This one is meh, but it's some free damage. Or you can use it to kill animals around you to make your free zombies.
Level 14 is fantastic.
Okay, I am not talking about the spell list and never did. (Side note: B/D us bad because it is a con save and those you want to target most likely has a good con save)
All your abilities are short range, and I mean very short range. So one has to come up with a way (not intended) just to get proper use out of them.
As I had said the ONLY good thing is the temp hp. And that is not a good solid reason to choose this.
And most games do not get to 14th level. So no matter how good it is. It's useless as well.
The fact that you don't think blindness/deafness is good makes me question if you know what you're talking about. Yea, the con save is somewhat of a down side, but the upside is that it's NOT CONCENTRATION. Druids are very limited on non-concentration debuffs (mostly high level spells like bones of earth or transmute rock). Also, this spell is invaluable against spellcasting monsters which often do not have very high con saves (many cases +0-2 even at CR 9) and require sight for many of their most potent spells. Let me know if you think blindness/deafness sucks when you face something like an abjurer or evoker (both +2 con save) that can do things like upcast banishment on your party or hit you with a chain lighting.
" I am not talking about the spell list and never did." Okay, well the spell list is a big part of the subclass, so you can't just not consider it when you grade the subclass. The temp HP from symbiotic entity and the spell list alone are in fact solid reasons to pick spores.
I forgot Circle of Spores gets it, though I'm not sure how relevant that is to the thread since that's only a single sub-class; plus even on spores, at higher levels you've got better ways to deal damage, and at earlier levels you can actually do more by going in for melee.
While it's off topic, I actually think Circle of Spores is alright for melee at later levels; the key things to remember is that even if it's not where you want them to be, they can still end up there, as enemies may force close range, or you might need to go in close to help an ally, so it's always better to have options, plus if you can layer on other weapon boosts such as picking up Hex (using Magic Initiate (Warlock) or similar, which could also get you Green Flame Blade) so you can actually get a pretty decent amount of combo damage going on top of your 10 foot spores damage. Again, it's not where you want to be, but you can still mess stuff up in melee if you have to.
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Did you read the whole post or just stop half way through? The blind condition is great for fighting melee creatures. And considering that you most likely are going against non spell casters, the spell casting argument is kinda niche.
Let's look at the spells.
B/D - wizard spell
Gentle repose - wizard spell
Animate dead -wizard spell
Gaseous form -wizard spell
Blight -base druid spell and wizard
Confusion -base druid and wizard
Cloudkill -wizard spell
Contagion -base druid spell
All but one can be taken by the wizard, which (if we are talking about making minions) can do necromancy better. So again the only thing going for spore druid is the temp HP.
Which also let's break down that ability. If you want the benefits it provides then you have to use it in combat most of the time. It takes a full action to use and the druid doesn't have many bonus action options. Also you are using wild shape. Let's take a look at what you are competing against with 8 temp hp, when you get this ability. (And let's throw you in melee range too, just to be fair) normal wild shape hp can be healed but it's like temp hp in a way.
Base druid: wolf-ac is a bit lower than yours but you get 11 hp with pact tactics.
Moon druid. Brown bear- lower ac but 34 hp and multi attack.
I don't think that the spore druid can ever get more hp than the moon druid. It might out pace the base druid. And you are giving up the utility of what the base wild shape can bring.
Wow I started a massive debate about circle of spores with 4 words
You're missing a few key points. Firstly, after the first few levels there is basically no point in waiting until combat to activate SE. You use it ASAP out of combat and get the temp HP (which last all day unlike the 10 min duration on the melee bonus). So you always go into combat with the temp HP and never waste your action unless it's to refresh it. This also lets you roll-over SE temp Hp when you short rest. Often times you'll have 3x the temp hp between rests when you need it.
Secondly, in terms of purely soaking up damage, wild shape is fine but has serious downsides. It locks you out of casting spells (until level 18). This is huge. No absorb elements when you eat a fireball. No healing up your teammates. No dropping a key control spell at the right moment in the middle of a combat or recasting a summon spell or whatever. The limitation of being unable to cast while in wild shape is so sever that it's almost pointless to compare them. And as you said, the AC of beasts are generally super low. So their HP gets chewed through a lot faster than symbiotic entity.
As far as the spell list goes, your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of the spell list. The fact that the spore circle spells include a lot of wizard spells that other druids don't get is GOOD for spores. It expands what the base druid is capable of doing.
Can wizards make better undead? Sure, they can with the school of necromancy or higher level necromancy spells. But druids can do a lot of things wizards can't, and none of this changes the fact that zombies and skeletons are still very useful. Also, wizards don't get magic stone which is very nice combo'd with skeletons. And one final thing, wizard necromancy has a lot of baggage that druid necromancy doesn't have. If you're in a party with lawful good players, paladins, clerics, etc, a wizard raising undead is going to cause a lot of strife.
Pretty sure Brrrr isnt a word ;-D
Also, I'm surprised Thorn Whip is so far behind on the favorites.. don't get me wrong, Guidance is golden.. but free pull on hit is great in tandem with all your Area Denial spells. It should easily be #2 on the list
"As far as the spell list goes, your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of the spell list. The fact that the spore circle spells include a lot of wizard spells that other druids don't get is GOOD for spores. It expands what the base druid is capable of doing."
You missed the point. The class features that you get from the wizard is better than the class features you get from the spore AND you can get the same spells.
"Can wizards make better undead? Sure, they can with the school of necromancy or higher level necromancy spells. But druids can do a lot of things wizards can't, and none of this changes the fact that zombies and skeletons are still very useful. Also, wizards don't get magic stone which is very nice combo'd with skeletons. And one final thing, wizard necromancy has a lot of baggage that druid necromancy doesn't have. If you're in a party with lawful good players, paladins, clerics, etc, a wizard raising undead is going to cause a lot of strife. "
The spore 6th level IS raising the dead. So I don't see the difference between playing a spore and a wizard when it comes to alignment.
Also magic stone and skeleton combo is bonus action dependent. Taking that both require the use of your bonus action. So depending your gm it will take 2 turns at minimum to throw the stones.
I think Thorn Whip is awesome. But it has a limit on the size of the target where Eldritch Blast + Grasp of Hadar has no limit. But that also requires more resources (invocation) to accomplish.
Also the thing about Guidance is that you technically still have to wait until the recipient uses their ability check, since it is concentration. But it's only for a maximum of one minute which in the grand scheme of things makes very little difference. Of course most cases that are too fast for multiple people to benefit would likely count as a saving throw anyway, which Guidance does absolutely nothing for.
Oh don't get me wrong, like all cantrips there are limits, and the use of Guidance is no exception.... but the hype and "this is the best choice" opinion of the spell makes sense to me, and I can see why it's the go to for most players.
Personally, I go with Shape Water over Guidance for my non-combat cantrip at level 1, but there's a lot more daily use for Guidance on a typical session than shape water.
As for Thorn Whip having a size restriction, this can obviously be a limitation.. but because I can't even imagine a humanoid creature using Thorn Whip to pull a huge or gigantic Dragon towards him (let alone a Large creature like an Allosaurus, which is technically doable), I'm not too bothered.
Thorn whip has been hurt a lot by power creep. Telekinetic feat, Crusher, swarmkeeper shove, etc. Vortex Warp is insane too. There's a lot more ways to displace enemies.
I like Thorn Whip, but the main problem with it is that it requires either a bit of setup or some good teamwork to really get the most out of it; it can be lethal in combination with anything else that can push or pull in order to drag an enemy through Spike Growth or similar area effects that deal damage as a target enters them (or moves through them by any means). That said, since the Druid may be the one setting up the area in the first place, often it's better for the push/pull effects to be on other players, though it's not bad to have one of your own for later rounds (or first round if you can setup in advance).
Personally though I like it more on a Ranger than a Druid, but that may be a bit biased as I have a build I really like created around the idea of using Thorn Whip + Gathered Swarm to pull an enemy into Polearm Master reaction attack range, as it could still give me two attacks for a melee focused character if it can't get into range. Not really relevant to the Druid discussion, but I like it. 😁
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