Thorn whip has been hurt a lot by power creep. Telekinetic feat, Crusher, swarmkeeper shove, etc. Vortex Warp is insane too. There's a lot more ways to displace enemies.
Don’t forget that Thorn Whip works with the Piercer feat.
Thorn whip has been hurt a lot by power creep. Telekinetic feat, Crusher, swarmkeeper shove, etc. Vortex Warp is insane too. There's a lot more ways to displace enemies.
Don’t forget that Thorn Whip works with the Piercer feat.
It's also actually one of the only ranged attack cantrips Druids can take; most (all?) of the others are save-based so they can't get critical hits. Not that you can rely on getting crits, but over all the times you use it that boosts the damage a fair bit (especially with the Piercer feat if you took it).
Also it's a ranged melee spell attack, so it can be used in melee without any penalties which could help with a Druid's limited cantrip choices (no need to take something else for melee). Because it's a melee attack it also combines with a few bonuses that apply to melee attacks, such as Absorb Elements. I don't think there are many more combos though, iirc most buffs apply to "melee weapon attacks" specifically.
It being a melee attack actually makes it arguably better than Shillelagh as you don't need a weapon to use it, it does pretty similar damage early on, scales better and is magical, and it doesn't take up your bonus action to activate it (just takes the attack you'd be making anyway).
Just some more points in its favour; I think my vote's still for Guidance personally as I use it all the time, but Thorn Whip's often dismissed unfairly just because its range isn't that far (though I think it's eligible for Spell Sniper and/or the Distant Spell Metamagic if you can get these).
Thorn whip has been hurt a lot by power creep. Telekinetic feat, Crusher, swarmkeeper shove, etc. Vortex Warp is insane too. There's a lot more ways to displace enemies.
Don’t forget that Thorn Whip works with the Piercer feat.
It's also actually one of the only ranged attack cantrips Druids can take; most (all?) of the others are save-based so they can't get critical hits. Not that you can rely on getting crits, but over all the times you use it that boosts the damage a fair bit (especially with the Piercer feat if you took it).
Also it's a ranged melee spell attack, so it can be used in melee without any penalties which could help with a Druid's limited cantrip choices (no need to take something else for melee). Because it's a melee attack it also combines with a few bonuses that apply to melee attacks, such as Absorb Elements. I don't think there are many more combos though, iirc most buffs apply to "melee weapon attacks" specifically.
It being a melee attack actually makes it arguably better than Shillelagh as you don't need a weapon to use it, it does pretty similar damage and is magical, and it doesn't take up your bonus action to activate it (just takes the attack you'd be making anyway).
Just some more points in its favour; I think my vote's still for Guidance personally as I use it all the time, but Thorn Whip's often dismissed unfairly just because its range isn't that far (though I think it's eligible for Spell Sniper and/or the Distant Spell Metamagic if you can get these).
Well, that's far too many resources to put in just for Thorn Whip unless you're able to use them for the rest of the build.
BUT that piercer thing and spell sniper AND the melee thing! The others I knew, but didn't occur to me about the melee. I don't know that Absorb Elements is necessarily worth using the slot, but that's also a neat interaction.
I've used damage cantrips for other purposes at DM's discretion, such as Eldritch Blast + Repelling Blast to knock inanimate objects away. Firebolt to start a fire. I've also read about Acid Splash being used in attempts to melt something like the bars of a prison cell or the lock on a door. I don't see why Thorn Whip couldn't be used for the very specific act of pulling something toward you provided it is unattached to anybody or anything.
Thorn whip (much like eldritch blast and acid splash) can only target creatures, not objects. [Tooltip Not Found] can target either creatures or objects however.
I used to like a land druid build that took spell sniper to get a 60 foot thorn whip. The extra range on thorn whip was really nice & allowed for you to play much safer. It came in handy more than you might think. Drow sniper 40 ft up in a tree shooting at you? Thorn whip their ass out of the tree. Enemy ship 50 ft across from your boat? Thorn whip into the water.
And depending on your DM, they may let you apply the "ignores cover" aspect to thorn whip and/or use the "range of attack spells is doubled" part to get reach with Primal Savagery. The later is a bit of a stretch but a lot of dm's are lenient.
Thorn whip (much like eldritch blast and acid splash) can only target creatures, not objects. [Tooltip Not Found] can target either creatures or objects however.
While you have a point, constructs and inanimate objects that are possessed and are still technically objects, but you can target them with attacks. Otherwise, the rest is just like I said, DM's discretion.
And depending on your DM, they may let you apply the "ignores cover" aspect to thorn whip and/or use the "range of attack spells is doubled" part to get reach with Primal Savagery. The later is a bit of a stretch but a lot of dm's are lenient.
The Spell Sniper should absolutely work with Thorn Whip in every way, It's only considered "melee spell attack" because the Whip in itself is an actual melee weapon with reach. But I don't think you can necessarily double the range of Self for Primal Savagery or Touch for other similar things, like Shocking Grasp.
And depending on your DM, they may let you apply the "ignores cover" aspect to thorn whip and/or use the "range of attack spells is doubled" part to get reach with Primal Savagery. The later is a bit of a stretch but a lot of dm's are lenient.
The Spell Sniper should absolutely work with Thorn Whip in every way, It's only considered "melee spell attack" because the Whip in itself is an actual melee weapon with reach. But I don't think you can necessarily double the range of Self for Primal Savagery or Touch for other similar things, like Shocking Grasp.
I would absolutely cheese argue Spell Sniper's cover ignoring on Thorn Whip; is Thorn Whip a spell attack? Absolutely. Does it have a range? Yup! Therefore… ranged spell attack*. 👍 *(Just has to ignore that Ranged Spell Attacks are also a specific thing)
I mean really it's fair because there's not much point of Druid being an option for Spell Sniper if it doesn't work with Thorn Whip as it's like 25% of their ranged attack spells.
Spell Sniper doesn't care that much about whether or not a spell uses a ranged spell attack or not. Only one of the bullets, the second one, would even apply.
When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell’s range is doubled.
All spells have a range, and so long as it isn't some variant on Self the range is doubled.
Doesn't apply to thorn whip anyway, since it is a melee spell attack. In other words, it ignored these rule entirely and always got around cover. Pretty nifty.
You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll. Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.
And this is how said druid is probably getting the cantrip anyway.
So, yeah, it's a totally viable choice that works with the feat in all the ways that matter.
Melee attacks are still affected by cover. And yes, RAW the ignoring of cover would not apply to thorn whip. But I think most DM's would allow it if you talk to them and explain that you're taking this feat specifically for thorn whip.
Guidance is the best cantrip in terms of clear mechanical benefits, but Mold Earth is easily exploited and really strong for creative players. I used it to shape the stone around a locked door in a dungeon. This freed the latch. Shillelagh is kind of overrated. It's only useful on Circle of Spores druids. Moon Druids should rely on their Wild Shape for melee damage, while other druids shouldn't intentionally charge into melee combat.
Here's my top 5:
Guidance
Mold Earth
Frostbite
Magic Stone
Gust
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Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
Guidance is the best cantrip in terms of clear mechanical benefits, but Mold Earth is easily exploited and really strong for creative players. I used it to shape the stone around a locked door in a dungeon. This freed the latch. Shillelagh is kind of overrated. It's only useful on Circle of Spores druids. Moon Druids should rely on their Wild Shape for melee damage, while other druids shouldn't intentionally charge into melee combat.
Here's my top 5:
Guidance
Mold Earth
Frostbite
Magic Stone
Gust
Mold Earth shouldn't have worked like that. Stone Shape is the spell that does what you suggested. Mold Earth is "great" until you realize it's very specific in what it does, and the "loose earth" feature is referencing dirt, not stone.
Guidance is the best cantrip in terms of clear mechanical benefits, but Mold Earth is easily exploited and really strong for creative players. I used it to shape the stone around a locked door in a dungeon. This freed the latch. Shillelagh is kind of overrated. It's only useful on Circle of Spores druids. Moon Druids should rely on their Wild Shape for melee damage, while other druids shouldn't intentionally charge into melee combat.
Here's my top 5:
Guidance
Mold Earth
Frostbite
Magic Stone
Gust
Mold Earth shouldn't have worked like that. Stone Shape is the spell that does what you suggested. Mold Earth is "great" until you realize it's very specific in what it does, and the "loose earth" feature is referencing dirt, not stone.
Agreed.. of the elemental cantrips, the one that is the most vague in application is Shapr Water.. Gust, Mold Earth and Control Flames feel much more limiting.
Who knew cantrips would be good when you let them do what a 4th level spell does, lol.
This is similar to how I like to use Prestidigitation/Druidcraft/Thaumaturgy... Small sounds and effects can somewhat simulate higher level illusion spells if you get creative enough and the DM allows. Sometimes people find where the DM cares to pay attention, or just plain doesn't know the details, and would prefer to overlook those minor issues to keep the game moving forward. There are those people who learn to take advantage of that.
Guidance is the best cantrip in terms of clear mechanical benefits, but Mold Earth is easily exploited and really strong for creative players. I used it to shape the stone around a locked door in a dungeon.
Any spell is extremely powerful when you ignore the RAW and just do whatever you want with it.
Guidance is the best cantrip in terms of clear mechanical benefits, but Mold Earth is easily exploited and really strong for creative players. I used it to shape the stone around a locked door in a dungeon.
Any spell is extremely powerful when you ignore the RAW and just do whatever you want with it.
The only thing my gm has allowed use to get away with mold earth is the hardening and softening of earth, when we traveled through a swamp.
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Don’t forget that Thorn Whip works with the Piercer feat.
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It's also actually one of the only ranged attack cantrips Druids can take; most (all?) of the others are save-based so they can't get critical hits. Not that you can rely on getting crits, but over all the times you use it that boosts the damage a fair bit (especially with the Piercer feat if you took it).
Also it's a ranged melee spell attack, so it can be used in melee without any penalties which could help with a Druid's limited cantrip choices (no need to take something else for melee). Because it's a melee attack it also combines with a few bonuses that apply to melee attacks, such as Absorb Elements. I don't think there are many more combos though, iirc most buffs apply to "melee weapon attacks" specifically.
It being a melee attack actually makes it arguably better than Shillelagh as you don't need a weapon to use it, it does pretty similar damage early on, scales better and is magical, and it doesn't take up your bonus action to activate it (just takes the attack you'd be making anyway).
Just some more points in its favour; I think my vote's still for Guidance personally as I use it all the time, but Thorn Whip's often dismissed unfairly just because its range isn't that far (though I think it's eligible for Spell Sniper and/or the Distant Spell Metamagic if you can get these).
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Well, that's far too many resources to put in just for Thorn Whip unless you're able to use them for the rest of the build.
BUT that piercer thing and spell sniper AND the melee thing! The others I knew, but didn't occur to me about the melee. I don't know that Absorb Elements is necessarily worth using the slot, but that's also a neat interaction.
I've used damage cantrips for other purposes at DM's discretion, such as Eldritch Blast + Repelling Blast to knock inanimate objects away. Firebolt to start a fire. I've also read about Acid Splash being used in attempts to melt something like the bars of a prison cell or the lock on a door. I don't see why Thorn Whip couldn't be used for the very specific act of pulling something toward you provided it is unattached to anybody or anything.
Thorn whip (much like eldritch blast and acid splash) can only target creatures, not objects. [Tooltip Not Found] can target either creatures or objects however.
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I used to like a land druid build that took spell sniper to get a 60 foot thorn whip. The extra range on thorn whip was really nice & allowed for you to play much safer. It came in handy more than you might think. Drow sniper 40 ft up in a tree shooting at you? Thorn whip their ass out of the tree. Enemy ship 50 ft across from your boat? Thorn whip into the water.
And depending on your DM, they may let you apply the "ignores cover" aspect to thorn whip and/or use the "range of attack spells is doubled" part to get reach with Primal Savagery. The later is a bit of a stretch but a lot of dm's are lenient.
While you have a point, constructs and inanimate objects that are possessed and are still technically objects, but you can target them with attacks. Otherwise, the rest is just like I said, DM's discretion.
The Spell Sniper should absolutely work with Thorn Whip in every way, It's only considered "melee spell attack" because the Whip in itself is an actual melee weapon with reach. But I don't think you can necessarily double the range of Self for Primal Savagery or Touch for other similar things, like Shocking Grasp.
I would absolutely cheese argue Spell Sniper's cover ignoring on Thorn Whip; is Thorn Whip a spell attack? Absolutely. Does it have a range? Yup! Therefore… ranged spell attack*. 👍
*(Just has to ignore that Ranged Spell Attacks are also a specific thing)
I mean really it's fair because there's not much point of Druid being an option for Spell Sniper if it doesn't work with Thorn Whip as it's like 25% of their ranged attack spells.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Spell Sniper doesn't care that much about whether or not a spell uses a ranged spell attack or not. Only one of the bullets, the second one, would even apply.
All spells have a range, and so long as it isn't some variant on Self the range is doubled.
Doesn't apply to thorn whip anyway, since it is a melee spell attack. In other words, it ignored these rule entirely and always got around cover. Pretty nifty.
And this is how said druid is probably getting the cantrip anyway.
So, yeah, it's a totally viable choice that works with the feat in all the ways that matter.
Melee attacks are still affected by cover. And yes, RAW the ignoring of cover would not apply to thorn whip. But I think most DM's would allow it if you talk to them and explain that you're taking this feat specifically for thorn whip.
An interesting interaction with thorn whip is that it works the absorb elements. And druid gets both of these spells.
Edit: I just wish that the spore druid SE just said "melee attacks" instead of "melee weapon attacks" that way thorn whip would work with it.
Guidance is the best cantrip in terms of clear mechanical benefits, but Mold Earth is easily exploited and really strong for creative players. I used it to shape the stone around a locked door in a dungeon. This freed the latch. Shillelagh is kind of overrated. It's only useful on Circle of Spores druids. Moon Druids should rely on their Wild Shape for melee damage, while other druids shouldn't intentionally charge into melee combat.
Here's my top 5:
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
It kind off fits the fungal vibe of Spore Druid. Your Thorn Whip could look diseased and infected. Problem: doesn't deal poison damage.
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
Yeah but I just wish for some synergy.
Mold Earth shouldn't have worked like that. Stone Shape is the spell that does what you suggested. Mold Earth is "great" until you realize it's very specific in what it does, and the "loose earth" feature is referencing dirt, not stone.
Agreed.. of the elemental cantrips, the one that is the most vague in application is Shapr Water.. Gust, Mold Earth and Control Flames feel much more limiting.
Who knew cantrips would be good when you let them do what a 4th level spell does, lol.
I love stone shape. It has so much utility. And as far as I know it's the only spell that can make permanent weapons.
This is similar to how I like to use Prestidigitation/Druidcraft/Thaumaturgy... Small sounds and effects can somewhat simulate higher level illusion spells if you get creative enough and the DM allows. Sometimes people find where the DM cares to pay attention, or just plain doesn't know the details, and would prefer to overlook those minor issues to keep the game moving forward. There are those people who learn to take advantage of that.
Any spell is extremely powerful when you ignore the RAW and just do whatever you want with it.
The only thing my gm has allowed use to get away with mold earth is the hardening and softening of earth, when we traveled through a swamp.