the example in question is a level 2 druid circle of the moon.
Circle Forms
The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into more dangerous animal forms. Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1 (you ignore the Max. CR column of the Beast Shapes table, but must abide by the other limitations there).
Brown bear is a CR 1 creature that has the multi-attack option.
Multiattack. The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws.
Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
Claws.Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Does this mean that a level 2 circle of the moon druid gets the multi-attack action earlier than any other class (at least while in brown bear form?)
That is correct. Moon Druids are extremely powerful up to level 5. At that point, they even out with other classes.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
War domain Clerics get to attack twice at level 1.
As a bonus action, up to your Wis modifier times per long rest (typically max of 5), and only when you have taken the Attack action.
Moon Druids can just do it any time they're in bear form.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
any character can as a bonus action with 2 light weapons. Is the second attack very effective? no ... but dual wielding short swords or scimitars may be enough to put down enemies in a single round (at low levels.) Obviously for this to be worth anything long term, you would need the feat and fighting style.
the example in question is a level 2 druid circle of the moon.
Circle Forms
The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into more dangerous animal forms. Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1 (you ignore the Max. CR column of the Beast Shapes table, but must abide by the other limitations there).
Brown bear is a CR 1 creature that has the multi-attack option.
Multiattack. The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws.
Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
Claws.Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Does this mean that a level 2 circle of the moon druid gets the multi-attack action earlier than any other class (at least while in brown bear form?)
Just wanted to make a pretty important distinction. Multi-attack is not the same as the Standard Attack that PCs make and can eventually make multiple attacks with. Multi-attack is a specific type of attack that uses your action and is made as an alternative to the standard attack.
Just wanted to make a pretty important distinction. Multi-attack is not the same as the Standard Attack that PCs make and can eventually make multiple attacks with. Multi-attack is a specific type of attack that uses your action and is made as an alternative to the standard attack.
Which is why Moon Druid evens out with most other classes around level 5. Multiattack is generally a very powerful feature, and one that makes Moon Druids incredibly powerful early on.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
There are other classes and combinations that can equal out to what the moon druid is capable of at level 2.
Fighters and Rangers for example can pick up two Weapon Fighting style which makes their off-hand attacks much more useful. This is balanced out by requiring the bonus action.
Monks actually start out being able to make two attacks if they wish to at level 1, and as many as 3 attacks for a few turns at level 2. This is balanced out by slightly lower damage output on each attack.
Rogues gain their sneak attack at level 2 which is balanced out by taking certain conditions to use it but allows them to have potential equivalent damage for their attack when used successfully.
What moon Druids get for having certain forms capable of multi-attack is that they are limited in what else they can do while they are in a form that is capable of it.
What Moon Druids actually get extra at very low level and is useful for most of them is access to attacks that do not sacrifice damage but also apply status effects (pinned, restrained, prone, poisoned, etc) Which very few classes or subclasses managed to do with any real regularity at low level and some don't even get good at at high level. Certain cantrips potentially applying certain effects and battle masters are the only thing that really come to mind for me by level 3 (and maybe a smite or two with very limited spell slots depending on how you view it). Most spells don't even bother to do both. It's mostly 1 or the other until like 3rd or 4th level spells and then the ability to do those is limited by spell level for most of them. This can actually be a potent thing to be able to do in many peoples minds that are considering tactical advantage and not just raw damage.
Look people, if you go moon druid 2 and then monk 2, you can make 4 attacks as a bear (2d6+4) using flurry of blows because of how wildshape works, and 3 attacks when you run out of ki or when you are 3rd level, as long as you are in brown bear form. If you want to be op, 5e will let you be op while also being a kung fu bear, bec...omg I have to look up the stats for pandas, see ya
Look people, if you go moon druid 2 and then monk 2, you can make 4 attacks as a bear (2d6+4) using flurry of blows because of how wildshape works, and 3 attacks when you run out of ki or when you are 3rd level, as long as you are in brown bear form. If you want to be op, 5e will let you be op while also being a kung fu bear, bec...omg I have to look up the stats for pandas, see ya
Unfortunately this is not true. Both the Bonus Action attack gained from Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows require you to take the Attack action; multiattack is it's own action, and is not done by taking the Attack action. Technically NPC creatures never use the Attack action - unless they are using improvised weapons, I suppose - as their attacks are all actions of their own. A druid transformed into a Brown Bear couldn't even use it's Bite action and then Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows.
Look people, if you go moon druid 2 and then monk 2, you can make 4 attacks as a bear (2d6+4) using flurry of blows because of how wildshape works, and 3 attacks when you run out of ki or when you are 3rd level, as long as you are in brown bear form. If you want to be op, 5e will let you be op while also being a kung fu bear, bec...omg I have to look up the stats for pandas, see ya
Unfortunately this is not true. Both the Bonus Action attack gained from Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows require you to take the Attack action; multiattack is it's own action, and is not done by taking the Attack action.
You are Correct.
However, if I am reading him right. He's not using multi-attack. He's using the martial arts ability and it's caveats about choosing to use either the martial arts die or a weapons original damage. But ignoring the problem that Natural weapons do not qualify for martial arts. If I am correct, then the problem that he's having is different. That being that Natural Weapons aren't actually unarmed attacks unless specifically called out as such, which only happens in racial entries, and they are not classified as simple weapons which means that they do not qualify for Martial Arts.
They were mentioning getting 4 attacks by using multiattack, which you couldn't do. Still, I can see an argument being made for being able to make an Unarmed Strike using the Brown Bear's 2d6+4 claw damage. I think I agree that they wouldn't qualify, though - if only because it would be extremely OP.
If you used Martial Arts to make an Unarmed Strike with the claws, the damage would drop from 2d6+4 to 1d?+4. Both dice don’t increase, it couldn’t ever be 2d10 or anything, and technically speaking, even if it were 2d4, that’s still statistically better than a martial arts die until 1d10, 2d6 would always be better (even if it went up to 1d12.)
If you used Martial Arts to make an Unarmed Strike with the claws, the damage would drop from 2d6+4 to 1d?+4. Both dice don’t increase, it couldn’t ever be 2d10 or anything, and technically speaking, even if it were 2d4, that’s still statistically better than a martial arts die until 1d10, 2d6 would always be better (even if it went up to 1d12.)
Martial Arts says "You can roll a d4in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table." In this case - if using the Claws as the weapon was allowed - the "normal damage" would be 2d6+4. It wouldn't change. What it means by "this die changes" is the d4 that can replace the normal damage; it has nothing to do with the dice of the normal damage.
If you used Martial Arts to make an Unarmed Strike with the claws, the damage would drop from 2d6+4 to 1d?+4. Both dice don’t increase, it couldn’t ever be 2d10 or anything, and technically speaking, even if it were 2d4, that’s still statistically better than a martial arts die until 1d10, 2d6 would always be better (even if it went up to 1d12.)
Martial Arts says "You can roll a d4in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table." In this case - if it were allowed - the "normal damage" would be 2d6+4. It wouldn't change. What it means by "this die changes" is the d4 that can replace the normal damage; it has nothing to do with the dice of the normal damage.
I understand all of that. Thank you for mansplaining RAW to me. I do so love when someone explains to me the exact thing I was just explaining as if I have no clue what I’m talking about.
Some folks think that if their Martial Arts die is, say, a d10; and they use it to replace the normal damage for a weapon with two damage dice (like the bear’s 2d6 as the current example); that it would double up as 2d10. I was making sure it was clear that would not happen.
Sorry, I misunderstood where you were coming from. No need to be so saucy about it. Though that wasn't ever in question, so calling me out for "mansplaining" is pretty hypocritical here.
Look people, if you go moon druid 2 and then monk 2, you can make 4 attacks as a bear (2d6+4) using flurry of blows because of how wildshape works, and 3 attacks when you run out of ki or when you are 3rd level, as long as you are in brown bear form. If you want to be op, 5e will let you be op while also being a kung fu bear, bec...omg I have to look up the stats for pandas, see ya
Unfortunately this is not true. Both the Bonus Action attack gained from Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows require you to take the Attack action; multiattack is it's own action, and is not done by taking the Attack action. Technically NPC creatures never use the Attack action - unless they are using improvised weapons, I suppose - as their attacks are all actions of their own. A druid transformed into a Brown Bear couldn't even use it's Bite action and then Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows.
Found this while searching for information on Wild Shape and Flurry of Blows and thought I would add this for future reference for anyone else that comes across this post through google search.
Natural Attacks arent classed as Unarmed Attacks for the purpose of triggering Flurry of Blows. Nor does Martial Arts affect Natural Attacks unless it state's otherwise, such as with a Tabaxi's claws. So it would mean that any Wild Shaped Druid who has Monk abilities couldnt use Flurry of Blows, but can use Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. Along with any other Ki ability that they can use within that Wild Shaped form and as pointed out in the Druid 201 that just got posted up, Unarmored Defense would work, as would the Unarmed Movement.
Hell, I'm tempted now to make up a Druid of the Moon / Shadow Monk just for shits and giggles for when the Shadow Monk hits 6th and uses Shadow Step as a Wild Shaped Brown Bear only to step out of the shadows near the enemy, move up and get that lovely Advantage on that Claw attack as part of Multi-attack.
I think the Wood Elf Monk, at level 2 making a longsword his dedicated weapon, with D10+3 (average 8.5) and D4+3 (average 5.5) damage is the closest to the bear's D8+4 (average 8.5) and 2D6 + 4 (average 11). 14 vs 19.5. Of course the bear is +6 to hit and the Elf +5, so the bear hits more often too.
Fighter and Ranger, if they took the duel weapon fighting style, would have 2 x (D6+3) for 13, again at +5 to hit.
Yes, at low levels the Moon Druid can be a very strong fighter.
The Rogue, sneak attacking with a rapier would have D8+3 + D6, or 6.5 + 3.5 for 10.
Though then we have the Paladin who could potentially be duel wielding short swords and divine smiting off of both of them. They don't get the duel weapon fighting style, unfortunately, so ideally you'd take a Variant Human with the Polearm Master Feat with a halberd or glaive (or spear if you wanted to keep using a shield). That weaponizes your bonus action just like duel wielding, but still gives you your stat bonuses to hit and to wound. With PAM (or DW) the Paladin can divine smite twice per turn at level 2 (whereupon he runs out of spell slots) for 4D8 (average 18) plus whatever damage comes from the weapon attacks.
So for one glorious turn the Paladin can outdamage the Druid, but it's all downhill from there.
actually, they could do flurry of blows after any Attack Action, and it does not specify here that it has to be a monk weapon or unarmed strike, so Natural Attacks are not off the table if you want to spend Ki… however , Multi Attack is not an Attack Action, so if you were playing a Wolf with that has a single Bite Attack as an Attack Action, then you could use furry of blows doing two additional unarmed strikes with a Bonus Action (at 1d4+str/dex at low levels)…
Now the martial arts feature that lets you do a single Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action only triggers on an unarmed strike or an attack with a monk weapon, so a Natural Attack won’t work here…
this is where a DM interpretation comes into play, as a wild shape Druid should still be able to make unarmed attacks even while Wildshape (albeit, at the monk damage die)
…first of as everyone has mentioned, a Natural Attack is NOT an Unarmed Strike… so that means you would have to be able to make an unarmed strike or wield a monk weapon like a staff or dagger to trigger the Bonus Action unarmed strike (might be able to argue a baboon or raccoon with an opposable thumb could wield a weapon… but you would have to argue /convince the DM this). There are no rules saying a PC in the Wildshape led form of a creature could not make a simple unarmed strike, so you could tell your DM that your brown bear does a side kick, a head butt or a karate chop (I’m looking at you KUMA from Tekken).. a giant spider throw a few jabs with its feet/arms, a Snake whips it’s tail at the face of a target, or even a horse doing a shoulder check wouldn’t be too far fetched for what an unarmed strike might constitute. But I doubt you could argue that a Tiger or Lion is capable of doing a flying 540- spin kick in the air, as it’s still limited to the physics of a large cat…
so… you’ll be doing the monk die of damage, 1d4 at starting level… but as with the martial arts features, you could choose between Str and Dex… and sometimes if you’re trying to break a casters concentration, two or three small attacks might be a better option if your creature doesn’t have multi attack. Also… A giant constrictor snake (cr2) has a higher average damage doing two unarmed strikes with 1d4+4 x2 vs 2d8+4 and a better chance of breaking a caster’s concentration… but you’re trading out the ability to constrict/restrain a target when doing this. Also Compare a Dire Wolf making two unarmed strikes at 1d4+3 (x2) vs it’s standard Bite Attack 2d6+3… again, assuming both hits land, you’ll do more damage, but you’ll be missing out on the Trip Chance, so it may or may not be worth it depending on the situation.
lastly, the you get to use your PC’s proficiency bonus if you make an unarmed strike while in Wild Shape, which will usually equate to a higher attack bonus than the beast’s natural attacks
so there is a lot of synergy… stunning strike, like flurry of blows, also works with a straight Attack Action too, even if it is the beasts natural attack
the example in question is a level 2 druid circle of the moon.
Brown bear is a CR 1 creature that has the multi-attack option.
Does this mean that a level 2 circle of the moon druid gets the multi-attack action earlier than any other class (at least while in brown bear form?)
That is correct. Moon Druids are extremely powerful up to level 5. At that point, they even out with other classes.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
War domain Clerics get to attack twice at level 1.
As a bonus action, up to your Wis modifier times per long rest (typically max of 5), and only when you have taken the Attack action.
Moon Druids can just do it any time they're in bear form.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
any character can as a bonus action with 2 light weapons. Is the second attack very effective? no ... but dual wielding short swords or scimitars may be enough to put down enemies in a single round (at low levels.) Obviously for this to be worth anything long term, you would need the feat and fighting style.
Just wanted to make a pretty important distinction. Multi-attack is not the same as the Standard Attack that PCs make and can eventually make multiple attacks with. Multi-attack is a specific type of attack that uses your action and is made as an alternative to the standard attack.
Which is why Moon Druid evens out with most other classes around level 5. Multiattack is generally a very powerful feature, and one that makes Moon Druids incredibly powerful early on.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
There are other classes and combinations that can equal out to what the moon druid is capable of at level 2.
Fighters and Rangers for example can pick up two Weapon Fighting style which makes their off-hand attacks much more useful. This is balanced out by requiring the bonus action.
Monks actually start out being able to make two attacks if they wish to at level 1, and as many as 3 attacks for a few turns at level 2. This is balanced out by slightly lower damage output on each attack.
Rogues gain their sneak attack at level 2 which is balanced out by taking certain conditions to use it but allows them to have potential equivalent damage for their attack when used successfully.
What moon Druids get for having certain forms capable of multi-attack is that they are limited in what else they can do while they are in a form that is capable of it.
What Moon Druids actually get extra at very low level and is useful for most of them is access to attacks that do not sacrifice damage but also apply status effects (pinned, restrained, prone, poisoned, etc) Which very few classes or subclasses managed to do with any real regularity at low level and some don't even get good at at high level. Certain cantrips potentially applying certain effects and battle masters are the only thing that really come to mind for me by level 3 (and maybe a smite or two with very limited spell slots depending on how you view it). Most spells don't even bother to do both. It's mostly 1 or the other until like 3rd or 4th level spells and then the ability to do those is limited by spell level for most of them. This can actually be a potent thing to be able to do in many peoples minds that are considering tactical advantage and not just raw damage.
Look people, if you go moon druid 2 and then monk 2, you can make 4 attacks as a bear (2d6+4) using flurry of blows because of how wildshape works, and 3 attacks when you run out of ki or when you are 3rd level, as long as you are in brown bear form. If you want to be op, 5e will let you be op while also being a kung fu bear, bec...omg I have to look up the stats for pandas, see ya
Unfortunately this is not true. Both the Bonus Action attack gained from Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows require you to take the Attack action; multiattack is it's own action, and is not done by taking the Attack action. Technically NPC creatures never use the Attack action - unless they are using improvised weapons, I suppose - as their attacks are all actions of their own. A druid transformed into a Brown Bear couldn't even use it's Bite action and then Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows.
You are Correct.
However, if I am reading him right. He's not using multi-attack. He's using the martial arts ability and it's caveats about choosing to use either the martial arts die or a weapons original damage. But ignoring the problem that Natural weapons do not qualify for martial arts. If I am correct, then the problem that he's having is different. That being that Natural Weapons aren't actually unarmed attacks unless specifically called out as such, which only happens in racial entries, and they are not classified as simple weapons which means that they do not qualify for Martial Arts.
They were mentioning getting 4 attacks by using multiattack, which you couldn't do. Still, I can see an argument being made for being able to make an Unarmed Strike using the Brown Bear's 2d6+4 claw damage. I think I agree that they wouldn't qualify, though - if only because it would be extremely OP.
If you used Martial Arts to make an Unarmed Strike with the claws, the damage would drop from 2d6+4 to 1d?+4. Both dice don’t increase, it couldn’t ever be 2d10 or anything, and technically speaking, even if it were 2d4, that’s still statistically better than a martial arts die until 1d10, 2d6 would always be better (even if it went up to 1d12.)
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Martial Arts says "You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table." In this case - if using the Claws as the weapon was allowed - the "normal damage" would be 2d6+4. It wouldn't change. What it means by "this die changes" is the d4 that can replace the normal damage; it has nothing to do with the dice of the normal damage.
I understand all of that. Thank you for mansplaining RAW to me. I do so love when someone explains to me the exact thing I was just explaining as if I have no clue what I’m talking about.
Some folks think that if their Martial Arts die is, say, a d10; and they use it to replace the normal damage for a weapon with two damage dice (like the bear’s 2d6 as the current example); that it would double up as 2d10. I was making sure it was clear that would not happen.
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Sorry, I misunderstood where you were coming from. No need to be so saucy about it. Though that wasn't ever in question, so calling me out for "mansplaining" is pretty hypocritical here.
It may not have been in question in this thread… yet, but it has in countless others over the years. So I wasn’t necessarily ‘splaining it to you.
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Found this while searching for information on Wild Shape and Flurry of Blows and thought I would add this for future reference for anyone else that comes across this post through google search.
Natural Attacks arent classed as Unarmed Attacks for the purpose of triggering Flurry of Blows. Nor does Martial Arts affect Natural Attacks unless it state's otherwise, such as with a Tabaxi's claws. So it would mean that any Wild Shaped Druid who has Monk abilities couldnt use Flurry of Blows, but can use Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. Along with any other Ki ability that they can use within that Wild Shaped form and as pointed out in the Druid 201 that just got posted up, Unarmored Defense would work, as would the Unarmed Movement.
Hell, I'm tempted now to make up a Druid of the Moon / Shadow Monk just for shits and giggles for when the Shadow Monk hits 6th and uses Shadow Step as a Wild Shaped Brown Bear only to step out of the shadows near the enemy, move up and get that lovely Advantage on that Claw attack as part of Multi-attack.
I think the Wood Elf Monk, at level 2 making a longsword his dedicated weapon, with D10+3 (average 8.5) and D4+3 (average 5.5) damage is the closest to the bear's D8+4 (average 8.5) and 2D6 + 4 (average 11). 14 vs 19.5. Of course the bear is +6 to hit and the Elf +5, so the bear hits more often too.
Fighter and Ranger, if they took the duel weapon fighting style, would have 2 x (D6+3) for 13, again at +5 to hit.
Yes, at low levels the Moon Druid can be a very strong fighter.
The Rogue, sneak attacking with a rapier would have D8+3 + D6, or 6.5 + 3.5 for 10.
Though then we have the Paladin who could potentially be duel wielding short swords and divine smiting off of both of them. They don't get the duel weapon fighting style, unfortunately, so ideally you'd take a Variant Human with the Polearm Master Feat with a halberd or glaive (or spear if you wanted to keep using a shield). That weaponizes your bonus action just like duel wielding, but still gives you your stat bonuses to hit and to wound. With PAM (or DW) the Paladin can divine smite twice per turn at level 2 (whereupon he runs out of spell slots) for 4D8 (average 18) plus whatever damage comes from the weapon attacks.
So for one glorious turn the Paladin can outdamage the Druid, but it's all downhill from there.
actually, they could do flurry of blows after any Attack Action, and it does not specify here that it has to be a monk weapon or unarmed strike, so Natural Attacks are not off the table if you want to spend Ki… however , Multi Attack is not an Attack Action, so if you were playing a Wolf with that has a single Bite Attack as an Attack Action, then you could use furry of blows doing two additional unarmed strikes with a Bonus Action (at 1d4+str/dex at low levels)…
Now the martial arts feature that lets you do a single Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action only triggers on an unarmed strike or an attack with a monk weapon, so a Natural Attack won’t work here…
this is where a DM interpretation comes into play, as a wild shape Druid should still be able to make unarmed attacks even while Wildshape (albeit, at the monk damage die)
…first of as everyone has mentioned, a Natural Attack is NOT an Unarmed Strike… so that means you would have to be able to make an unarmed strike or wield a monk weapon like a staff or dagger to trigger the Bonus Action unarmed strike (might be able to argue a baboon or raccoon with an opposable thumb could wield a weapon… but you would have to argue /convince the DM this). There are no rules saying a PC in the Wildshape led form of a creature could not make a simple unarmed strike, so you could tell your DM that your brown bear does a side kick, a head butt or a karate chop (I’m looking at you KUMA from Tekken).. a giant spider throw a few jabs with its feet/arms, a Snake whips it’s tail at the face of a target, or even a horse doing a shoulder check wouldn’t be too far fetched for what an unarmed strike might constitute. But I doubt you could argue that a Tiger or Lion is capable of doing a flying 540- spin kick in the air, as it’s still limited to the physics of a large cat…
so… you’ll be doing the monk die of damage, 1d4 at starting level… but as with the martial arts features, you could choose between Str and Dex… and sometimes if you’re trying to break a casters concentration, two or three small attacks might be a better option if your creature doesn’t have multi attack. Also… A giant constrictor snake (cr2) has a higher average damage doing two unarmed strikes with 1d4+4 x2 vs 2d8+4 and a better chance of breaking a caster’s concentration… but you’re trading out the ability to constrict/restrain a target when doing this. Also Compare a Dire Wolf making two unarmed strikes at 1d4+3 (x2) vs it’s standard Bite Attack 2d6+3… again, assuming both hits land, you’ll do more damage, but you’ll be missing out on the Trip Chance, so it may or may not be worth it depending on the situation.
lastly, the you get to use your PC’s proficiency bonus if you make an unarmed strike while in Wild Shape, which will usually equate to a higher attack bonus than the beast’s natural attacks
so there is a lot of synergy… stunning strike, like flurry of blows, also works with a straight Attack Action too, even if it is the beasts natural attack