I was wondering if i could get a clarification on something, as officially as possible, that has been a great debate in my playgroup?
My Question is in regards to this little bit in the Swashbucklers section(obviously):
SWASHBUCKLERS AND Two-WEAPON FIGHTING: The Swashbuckler relies on a good understanding of the D&D rules to realize its potential, specifically when it comes to fighting with two weapons. Other characters must use an action to Disengage if they want to escape a melee, but the Fancy Footwork feature of the Swashbuckler bundles a more limited version of Disengage with in your attack. This allows you to use your bonus action to fight with two weapons, and then safely evade each foe you attacked.
I have a Level 9 Swashbuckler and I am/was attempting to Florentine/Duel Wield Finesse weapons. With the abilities Fancy Footwork and Cunning Action, the way I understood it, The Swashbuckler can run in Hit an enemy(or friend I suppose) with both the Main hand and off hand weapons(by using my bonus action and without prof bonus i believe), get the sneak attack and then move away from the target that was just struck, assuming i have movement remaining. If i have no movement remaining i would need to use Cunning Action to disengage and due to Fancy Footwork removing the Attack of Opportunity i need not worry about rebuke from them.
It also seems if i wanted to attack multiple targets I could hit one with main hand get sneak attack, move to another target hit using my off hand weapon (possibly get sneak attack here as well, though still no prof bonus on weapon) and still disengage without fear of the Attack of opportunity.
It seems like the need for the Duel Wield Feat is not need the way i understand this.
Please can someone clear this up for me. If im way off base how it all works please get me to were i understand im sick of fighting with my playgroup and Dm about how this is supposed to work.
I think I understand what you're asking, so will try to address:
Is Dual Wield feat needed to be able to fight with two weapons? No - anyone can fight with a pair of light weapons., without taking any feats to do so. Check the rules on this here.
Does the Swashbuckler ability, "Fancy Footwork" allow the character to move in, strike opponents and then move out, without triggering attacks of opportunity? Yes - this is exactly what it does, according to the rules - as long as you make an attack against the target, they cannot make an attack of opportunity against you for the rest of your turn (ie while you are moving away from them). The "Fancy Footwork" ability is different to taking the disengage option and is considered a passive ability that always functions when the requirements are met.
If i have no movement remaining i would need to use Cunning Action to disengage and due to Fancy Footwork removing the Attack of Opportunity i need not worry about rebuke from them.
If you have no movement remaining you'd need to take the Dash action to get more movement.
Another thing to note is that you cannot attack with your offhand weapon and use Cunning Action in the same turn as they both require a bonus action to use.
If you move, attack with both weapons, and are out of movement that's it. You have use your move, your action, and your bonus action. All you have left this round is a reaction and cannot move any further unless you have an effect on you which gives you another action or bonus action this turn.
You also are not required to use Disengage to move away from an enemy you attacked, regardless of whether or not you hit. You will not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Just remember that if you use your offhand attack, you'll not be able to use your Dash to extend your movement in the same turn. Dashing for you requires either an action or bonus action. Attacking with your main and offhand weapon uses both.
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Also note that you cannot get sneak attack damage more than once in your turn. So if you hit an opponent with your main attack action and do sneak attack damage, you won't get sneak attack damage if you hit that opponent (or any other opponent) with your off hand bonus action attack in that same turn.
Also note the key word in Stormknight's rule quote is "turn." You can do sneak attack damage multiple times per round, just not multiple times per turn. Typically this will happen (especially for a melee rogue), where you hit something and do sneak attack damage on your turn, then hit something with an opportunity attack on someone else's turn during the same round. In that situation, you can do sneak attack damage with both attacks, assuming you otherwise meet the criteria for doing sneak attack damage.
If i have no movement remaining i would need to use Cunning Action to disengage and due to Fancy Footwork removing the Attack of Opportunity i need not worry about rebuke from them.
If you have no movement remaining you'd need to take the Dash action to get more movement.
I think it was already mentioned that you cant make your second attack, and then use cunning action, as they both use your bonus action. In the situation you mention you are just left standing there up close and nothing left to do on your turn. :(
Trust me I am a halfling swashbuckler with only 25ft of movement (15 AC 23 HP lvl4) and get caught right up close in melee range WAY more than I am comfortable with.
Yeah, the idea is that, for most rogues, you cannot use the Two Weapon Fighting rules and safely run away strategically leave the range of your opponent's melee attacks. Attacking with both weapons uses a bonus action, so you're stuck taking possible attacks. In order to be most safe, a rogue could attack with only 1 weapon, and then use the bonus action to disengage, allowing them to not provoke opportunity attacks.
Swashbucklers, on the other hand, are better for this. They can attack with both weapons (presumably against 2 targets), and safely step away without fear of reprisal or need of the "disengage" cunning action. Of course, if they're surrounded in the middle of a target-rich environment, they could still take attacks from the targets they didn't attack, and could not disengage as they've already used that bonus action. Alternatively, if there's only one target, you could attack him with a single weapon, use the cunning action to dash, and run attempt to lead him twice your speed away from the battle.
I love this with Booming Blade (High Elf for cantrip). I walk/dash up to something, booming blade, step back. They have to come to me and take the extra thunder damage (Swashbuckler 9/Champion 3 (duelist fighting style), +1 rapier: 1d8+5d6+8 piercing, 2d8 thunder + 3d8 more thunder when they move, total 6d8+5d6+8 damage from one attack...). Outshines any need for dual wielding - consider that, if I took dual wielder and used rapiers, I'd get 1d8 more rapier damage, lose 2-5d8 thunder damage (depends on if the target moves and takes the additional), lose 2 from duelist, get 5 from TWF fighting style. Total damage of 2d8+5d6+12 (assume +1 weapons to make it easier). I'll take 4 extra d8, the ability to use a shield, and the ability to dash as a bonus, over TWF any day. I can action surge if I need my sneak attack.
I love this with Booming Blade (High Elf for cantrip). I walk/dash up to something, booming blade, step back. They have to come to me and take the extra thunder damage (Swashbuckler 9/Champion 3 (duelist fighting style), +1 rapier: 1d8+5d6+8 piercing, 2d8 thunder + 3d8 more thunder when they move, total 6d8+5d6+8 damage from one attack...). Outshines any need for dual wielding - consider that, if I took dual wielder and used rapiers, I'd get 1d8 more rapier damage, lose 2-5d8 thunder damage (depends on if the target moves and takes the additional), lose 2 from duelist, get 5 from TWF fighting style. Total damage of 2d8+5d6+12 (assume +1 weapons to make it easier). I'll take 4 extra d8, the ability to use a shield, and the ability to dash as a bonus, over TWF any day. I can action surge if I need my sneak attack.
That's kind of a skewed comparison since with 1 attack you have a higher chance of losing Sneak Attack. Action Surge only works once per short rest.
Using those numbers, if your hit rate is 70%, you're averaging 39 * 0.7 = 23.4 damage per round. With TWF you'd miss both hits 9% of the time, hit once with Sneak Attack 42% of the time (28 damage) and hit twice 49% of the time (38.5 damage), for an average of 30.6. The TWF build could also stop at Fighter 1 since Action Surge isn't as helpful if you already have 2 chances to get Sneak Attack.
Not saying it's a bad trade-off, they're just both situational. The Booming Blade approach works well if you can get your chances to hit really high, while the TWF approach works really well when your chance to hit is low, and in between both of them work well enough.
I love this with Booming Blade (High Elf for cantrip). I walk/dash up to something, booming blade, step back. They have to come to me and take the extra thunder damage (Swashbuckler 9/Champion 3 (duelist fighting style), +1 rapier: 1d8+5d6+8 piercing, 2d8 thunder + 3d8 more thunder when they move, total 6d8+5d6+8 damage from one attack...). Outshines any need for dual wielding - consider that, if I took dual wielder and used rapiers, I'd get 1d8 more rapier damage, lose 2-5d8 thunder damage (depends on if the target moves and takes the additional), lose 2 from duelist, get 5 from TWF fighting style. Total damage of 2d8+5d6+12 (assume +1 weapons to make it easier). I'll take 4 extra d8, the ability to use a shield, and the ability to dash as a bonus, over TWF any day. I can action surge if I need my sneak attack.
That's kind of a skewed comparison since with 1 attack you have a higher chance of losing Sneak Attack. Action Surge only works once per short rest.
Using those numbers, if your hit rate is 70%, you're averaging 39 * 0.7 = 23.4 damage per round. With TWF you'd miss both hits 9% of the time, hit once with Sneak Attack 42% of the time (28 damage) and hit twice 49% of the time (38.5 damage), for an average of 30.6. The TWF build could also stop at Fighter 1 since Action Surge isn't as helpful if you already have 2 chances to get Sneak Attack.
Not saying it's a bad trade-off, they're just both situational. The Booming Blade approach works well if you can get your chances to hit really high, while the TWF approach works really well when your chance to hit is low, and in between both of them work well enough.
Yes, I do recognize that. And if it happens once a fight (it doesn't) then I'd still be okay with it, because over the course of even 3 attacks, I get enough thunder dice to make up for the one missed sneak. But I don't begrudge anyone that wants to Dual Wield as a Swashbuckler - my build requires being a high elf, and as such is incredibly limited. Any other race would probably be better off dual wielding.
What I dont get is how can a Swashbuckler even get sneak attack if they are using 2 light weapons? They have to use 2 light weapons in 2 weapon fighting (assuming they have no special feat). The sneak attack text specifically says the weapon has to be a Finesse weapon. Could anyone clear that up for me?
What I dont get is how can a Swashbuckler even get sneak attack if they are using 2 light weapons? They have to use 2 light weapons in 2 weapon fighting (assuming they have no special feat). The sneak attack text specifically says the weapon has to be a Finesse weapon. Could anyone clear that up for me?
Shortswords and daggers are each light and finesse.
I just want to add one thing to this conversation. One thing to consider is getting two weapon fighting, so that you can use rapiers in both hands. They are Finesse, but not light, so the feat would be required. The AC bonus helps a lot, especially at higher levels with Panache and Uncanny Dodge.
So are Scimitars! The classic swashbuckler weapon.
This is correct, but rogues do not get proficiency in scimitars by default - you would need to find that proficiency from somewhere other than the rogue class.
Proficiencies: Weapons: Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords (Scimitars are martial weapons)
I just realized that I posed this question almost 4 years ago and NEVER thanked everyone involved for confirming my thoughts. Now if I could have only convinced that DM that DDB was a very viable and valuable resource for staying up to date on all errata within our favorite TTRPG. Oh well. Thank you all for these clarifications!
I was wondering if i could get a clarification on something, as officially as possible, that has been a great debate in my playgroup?
My Question is in regards to this little bit in the Swashbucklers section(obviously):
I have a Level 9 Swashbuckler and I am/was attempting to Florentine/Duel Wield Finesse weapons. With the abilities Fancy Footwork and Cunning Action, the way I understood it, The Swashbuckler can run in Hit an enemy(or friend I suppose) with both the Main hand and off hand weapons(by using my bonus action and without prof bonus i believe), get the sneak attack and then move away from the target that was just struck, assuming i have movement remaining. If i have no movement remaining i would need to use Cunning Action to disengage and due to Fancy Footwork removing the Attack of Opportunity i need not worry about rebuke from them.
It also seems if i wanted to attack multiple targets I could hit one with main hand get sneak attack, move to another target hit using my off hand weapon (possibly get sneak attack here as well, though still no prof bonus on weapon) and still disengage without fear of the Attack of opportunity.
It seems like the need for the Duel Wield Feat is not need the way i understand this.
Please can someone clear this up for me. If im way off base how it all works please get me to were i understand im sick of fighting with my playgroup and Dm about how this is supposed to work.
Hi there,
I think I understand what you're asking, so will try to address:
No - anyone can fight with a pair of light weapons., without taking any feats to do so. Check the rules on this here.
Yes - this is exactly what it does, according to the rules - as long as you make an attack against the target, they cannot make an attack of opportunity against you for the rest of your turn (ie while you are moving away from them). The "Fancy Footwork" ability is different to taking the disengage option and is considered a passive ability that always functions when the requirements are met.
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Another thing to note is that you cannot attack with your offhand weapon and use Cunning Action in the same turn as they both require a bonus action to use.
If you move, attack with both weapons, and are out of movement that's it. You have use your move, your action, and your bonus action. All you have left this round is a reaction and cannot move any further unless you have an effect on you which gives you another action or bonus action this turn.
You also are not required to use Disengage to move away from an enemy you attacked, regardless of whether or not you hit. You will not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Just remember that if you use your offhand attack, you'll not be able to use your Dash to extend your movement in the same turn. Dashing for you requires either an action or bonus action. Attacking with your main and offhand weapon uses both.
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Also note that you cannot get sneak attack damage more than once in your turn. So if you hit an opponent with your main attack action and do sneak attack damage, you won't get sneak attack damage if you hit that opponent (or any other opponent) with your off hand bonus action attack in that same turn.
For reference:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/classes/rogue#SneakAttack
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Also note the key word in Stormknight's rule quote is "turn." You can do sneak attack damage multiple times per round, just not multiple times per turn. Typically this will happen (especially for a melee rogue), where you hit something and do sneak attack damage on your turn, then hit something with an opportunity attack on someone else's turn during the same round. In that situation, you can do sneak attack damage with both attacks, assuming you otherwise meet the criteria for doing sneak attack damage.
Yeah, the idea is that, for most rogues, you cannot use the Two Weapon Fighting rules and
safely run awaystrategically leave the range of your opponent's melee attacks. Attacking with both weapons uses a bonus action, so you're stuck taking possible attacks. In order to be most safe, a rogue could attack with only 1 weapon, and then use the bonus action to disengage, allowing them to not provoke opportunity attacks.Swashbucklers, on the other hand, are better for this. They can attack with both weapons (presumably against 2 targets), and safely step away without fear of reprisal or need of the "disengage" cunning action. Of course, if they're
surroundedin the middle of a target-rich environment, they could still take attacks from the targets they didn't attack, and could not disengage as they've already used that bonus action. Alternatively, if there's only one target, you could attack him with a single weapon, use the cunning action to dash, andrunattempt to lead him twice your speed away from the battle.I love this with Booming Blade (High Elf for cantrip). I walk/dash up to something, booming blade, step back. They have to come to me and take the extra thunder damage (Swashbuckler 9/Champion 3 (duelist fighting style), +1 rapier: 1d8+5d6+8 piercing, 2d8 thunder + 3d8 more thunder when they move, total 6d8+5d6+8 damage from one attack...). Outshines any need for dual wielding - consider that, if I took dual wielder and used rapiers, I'd get 1d8 more rapier damage, lose 2-5d8 thunder damage (depends on if the target moves and takes the additional), lose 2 from duelist, get 5 from TWF fighting style. Total damage of 2d8+5d6+12 (assume +1 weapons to make it easier). I'll take 4 extra d8, the ability to use a shield, and the ability to dash as a bonus, over TWF any day. I can action surge if I need my sneak attack.
What I dont get is how can a Swashbuckler even get sneak attack if they are using 2 light weapons? They have to use 2 light weapons in 2 weapon fighting (assuming they have no special feat). The sneak attack text specifically says the weapon has to be a Finesse weapon. Could anyone clear that up for me?
whew, thanks, I thought i was losing my mind on that one. Somehow I missed that little tidbit of info :)
I just want to add one thing to this conversation. One thing to consider is getting two weapon fighting, so that you can use rapiers in both hands. They are Finesse, but not light, so the feat would be required. The AC bonus helps a lot, especially at higher levels with Panache and Uncanny Dodge.
The sneak attack part of swashbuckler is broken especially at lower lvls especially pvp.
So are Scimitars! The classic swashbuckler weapon.
This is correct, but rogues do not get proficiency in scimitars by default - you would need to find that proficiency from somewhere other than the rogue class.
Proficiencies: Weapons: Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords
(Scimitars are martial weapons)
I just realized that I posed this question almost 4 years ago and NEVER thanked everyone involved for confirming my thoughts. Now if I could have only convinced that DM that DDB was a very viable and valuable resource for staying up to date on all errata within our favorite TTRPG. Oh well. Thank you all for these clarifications!
It’s heartwarming that you were able to return to the post and thank everyone! I for one love swashbucklers, it is my favorite rogue subclass.