"Assassinate reads: You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet.
This is very specific wording and Surprise has no bearing on it. If both you and your target are surprised by each other, but you happen to have a higher initiative, you can act and attack before they take a turn in the combat. That would activate your Assassinate. Correct?
All that matters is that your enemy has or has not acted yet. Holding his turn, Delaying, Readying an action are all Actions, and they count. If your enemy's initiative order comes and passes, even if they do nothing but stand there, he's acted.
You can gain Assassinate Advantage in the Surprise round (Enemy hasn't acted) and then AGAIN in the first round if you win initiative (Enemy still hasn't acted). You don't need to hide or anything, merely going first will count."
^^^ Last sentence is what I'm unsure about (and I feel like he almost contradicts himself). Basically - assuming I have a higher initiative than my enemy target, and the target is surprised - I attack with sneak attack and auto-crit during Round 1 because he/she is surprised. Easy. In Round 2 - since I still have a higher initiative - do I get advantage on the attack roll because they enemy hasn't acted yet? Or do I need to do something else (e.g. Hide) prior to being able to do Sneak Attack again? Again - I recognize fully that it will not trigger the auto-crit capabilities of Assassinate.
The wording is very clear, and it helps to compare the two sentences: auto-crits are specifically against surprised opponents, but the advantage applies to anyone who hasn't acted yet, regardless of whether it's round 1 or round 2.
How exactly does an opponent count as surprised? Do you have to make an attack against them before initiative was rolled?
No, you don't have to make an attack against them before initiative was rolled (and by RAW that isn't actually possible because you attack on your turn, and your turn doesn't happen until after you've rolled initiative.)
What it takes for an opponent to count as surprised is for the circumstances of the impending attack to be surprising to the opponent - though how you go about making that happen can have different approaches (i.e. successfully sneaking into attack range without being noticed, or perhaps blindsiding them with an attack in the middle of a conversation, or maybe even a quick-draw contest that you've managed to win) and can have different mechanical interpretations from DM to DM.
The best thing to do is talk with your DM (or with your assassin playing player if you are the DM) and find a common understanding of how this sort of thing will work at your table.
But once you get a surprised opponent, you roll initiative, and hopefully you roll higher than they do because if their turn (on which they can't take actions because they are surprised) comes first, they aren't surprised any more and have taken their turn so neither of your assassinate benefits apply.
Ah. Typically, in my group, we don't roll initiative until combat commences. If our party comes upon a creature who is hostile, initiative is rolled right then and there unless one of us is stealthed and has a readied action to attack. In that case, we would resolve the readied action, then roll initiative. We also roll initiative if both parties are anticipating a possible fight and one party attempts a first strike, again, unless the person making the first strike is stealthed. So it is possible in our party to get two assassination strikes in. First, you would have to get a surprise round against the enemy, almost always by using stealth. Then, you would have to beat them on the initiative roll and make your second strike before they've taken a turn.
Ah. Typically, in my group, we don't roll initiative until combat commences. If our party comes upon a creature who is hostile, initiative is rolled right then and there unless one of us is stealthed and has a readied action to attack. In that case, we would resolve the readied action, then roll initiative. We also roll initiative if both parties are anticipating a possible fight and one party attempts a first strike, again, unless the person making the first strike is stealthed. So it is possible in our party to get two assassination strikes in. First, you would have to get a surprise round against the enemy, almost always by using stealth. Then, you would have to beat them on the initiative roll and make your second strike before they've taken a turn.
That's how I do it, too.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I am curious about Assassinate and 17th level Death Strike. Essentially it sounds as though if you surprise an enemy and successfully "Assassinate" then they fail a Constitution saving throw you do Critical damage and then double the total damage. If this is not stackable it means the Death Strike should not even be an option and is essentially redundant. So a lvl 17 Rogue using a normal 1d6 weapon and with out calculating ability or proficiency bonuses will do 20d6 x's two. What am I missing?
I am curious about Assassinate and 17th level Death Strike. Essentially it sounds as though if you surprise an enemy and successfully "Assassinate" then they fail a Constitution saving throw you do Critical damage and then double the total damage. If this is not stackable it means the Death Strike should not even be an option and is essentially redundant. So a lvl 17 Rogue using a normal 1d6 weapon and with out calculating ability or proficiency bonuses will do 20d6 x's two. What am I missing?
Yes, if you surprise an enemy and they fail the Constitution save, you score a critical hit and the target takes double damage. You're not missing anything - the design intention is that a high-level assassin can do serious harm if they catch their target off guard.
I have a question about the archetype of the assassin.
Can I benefit from the advantage granted by the archetype in every round, as long as I win the initiative, or only in the first round of the whole fight?
I have a question about the archetype of the assassin.
Can I benefit from the advantage granted by the archetype in every round, as long as I win the initiative, or only in the first round of the whole fight?
Hi Necromarcio o/
The advantage granted by Asassinate only works at the beginning of the fight, as the feature states "against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat ye". The important part here is that as soon as the second round begins, every enemy has already taken a turn in the combat, therefore no more Assassinate on them.
Should new challengers appear (reinforcements for the enemy, summoned creatures or the like) then you could technically still benefit from Assassinate on any of these new creatures joining the fight now that has lower initiative than you.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
The advantage granted by Asassinate only works at the beginning of the fight, as the feature states "against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat ye". The important part here is that as soon as the second round begins, every enemy has already taken a turn in the combat, therefore no more Assassinate on them.
I suppose Assassinate is to the Assassin as Vow of Enmity is to the Vengeance Paladin. Still, I'm conflicted when my player's Assassin invoked Assassinate for the first time. When I read the description in the PHB, the sticking point lands on "hasn't taken a turn in combat yet." As in: hasn't taken their first turn in combat? Or: hasn't taken their turn in each round of combat? If the former, then Assassinate can be used only in the first round of combat, as well as on low-initiative targets that entered combat late and haven't taken their turn. (As per @LeK.) If the latter, then Assassinate is used every round of combat on a target with a lower initiative. (As per @Sillvva and almost everyone else on this thread.)
This brings me back to comparing Assassinate with Vow of Enmity. If one figures, "The Assassin can't have advantage on attack rolls every round against a target with a lower initiative," then the counter argument would be "Well, the Vengeance Paladin gets exactly that for a minute." (Or up until zero hit points or unconsciousness.)
Ultimately, I ruled in favor of every combat round for Assassinate. My player's Assassin—with the help of a Cleric—took down a Night Hag in thirteen rounds. Sneak Attack included, of course. Too bad for the Night Hag's low initiative roll.
Still, I'm conflicted. When I weigh-in comparison with Vow of Enmity, then it seems fair. But then add Sneak Attack and that seems OP, doesn't it? But from a narrative standpoint, that's what makes Assassins great, right?
It only applies on the first round of combat where that enemy came in. If they had a turn in round 1, then they are considered to have "taken a turn in combat" even in round 2. If the wording was talking about rounds it would have used that word.
If an enemy joins the combat in round 3, then you can get advantage against them in round 3, but not round 4.
Note also that if you can take more than one attack, by dual wielding for example, both attacks get the advantage.
Yes. You get advantage on EVERY attack against a creature that has yet to take an action in combat.
Not "an action", "a turn". There's a difference. If a creature is surprised at the start of combat, they can't move or take actions during their turn, but they do still take a turn. And at the end of their first turn, they are no longer surprised. So whether they're surprised or not, you still have to be ahead of them in the initiative order for either feature of Assassinate to kick in. The only exception is if a creature joins the fray later in combat and rolls lower initiative than you do, you'll get a chance to attack them before they've taken a turn, and thereby get Advantage on your first round of attacks against them.
And this is why taking the Alert feat is so helpful for Assassins :)
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From https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2z35sl/clarification_on_hide_surprise_in_5e/
"Assassinate reads:
You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet.
Yes. You get advantage on EVERY attack against a creature that has yet to take an action in combat.
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The wording is very clear, and it helps to compare the two sentences: auto-crits are specifically against surprised opponents, but the advantage applies to anyone who hasn't acted yet, regardless of whether it's round 1 or round 2.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
How exactly does an opponent count as surprised? Do you have to make an attack against them before initiative was rolled?
Ah. Typically, in my group, we don't roll initiative until combat commences. If our party comes upon a creature who is hostile, initiative is rolled right then and there unless one of us is stealthed and has a readied action to attack. In that case, we would resolve the readied action, then roll initiative. We also roll initiative if both parties are anticipating a possible fight and one party attempts a first strike, again, unless the person making the first strike is stealthed. So it is possible in our party to get two assassination strikes in. First, you would have to get a surprise round against the enemy, almost always by using stealth. Then, you would have to beat them on the initiative roll and make your second strike before they've taken a turn.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I am curious about Assassinate and 17th level Death Strike. Essentially it sounds as though if you surprise an enemy and successfully "Assassinate" then they fail a Constitution saving throw you do Critical damage and then double the total damage. If this is not stackable it means the Death Strike should not even be an option and is essentially redundant. So a lvl 17 Rogue using a normal 1d6 weapon and with out calculating ability or proficiency bonuses will do 20d6 x's two. What am I missing?
I have a question about the archetype of the assassin.
Can I benefit from the advantage granted by the archetype in every round, as long as I win the initiative, or only in the first round of the whole fight?
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I suppose Assassinate is to the Assassin as Vow of Enmity is to the Vengeance Paladin. Still, I'm conflicted when my player's Assassin invoked Assassinate for the first time. When I read the description in the PHB, the sticking point lands on "hasn't taken a turn in combat yet." As in: hasn't taken their first turn in combat? Or: hasn't taken their turn in each round of combat? If the former, then Assassinate can be used only in the first round of combat, as well as on low-initiative targets that entered combat late and haven't taken their turn. (As per @LeK.) If the latter, then Assassinate is used every round of combat on a target with a lower initiative. (As per @Sillvva and almost everyone else on this thread.)
This brings me back to comparing Assassinate with Vow of Enmity. If one figures, "The Assassin can't have advantage on attack rolls every round against a target with a lower initiative," then the counter argument would be "Well, the Vengeance Paladin gets exactly that for a minute." (Or up until zero hit points or unconsciousness.)
Ultimately, I ruled in favor of every combat round for Assassinate. My player's Assassin—with the help of a Cleric—took down a Night Hag in thirteen rounds. Sneak Attack included, of course. Too bad for the Night Hag's low initiative roll.
Still, I'm conflicted. When I weigh-in comparison with Vow of Enmity, then it seems fair. But then add Sneak Attack and that seems OP, doesn't it? But from a narrative standpoint, that's what makes Assassins great, right?
No, you misunderstood what I said.
It only applies on the first round of combat where that enemy came in. If they had a turn in round 1, then they are considered to have "taken a turn in combat" even in round 2. If the wording was talking about rounds it would have used that word.
If an enemy joins the combat in round 3, then you can get advantage against them in round 3, but not round 4.
Note also that if you can take more than one attack, by dual wielding for example, both attacks get the advantage.
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Thanks for your clarification.
I didn't know both attacks would get advantage but you wouldn't roll SA on the OH attack, correct?
You can roll SA on the OH attack if the MH attack misses, but not if the MH attack hits.
Not "an action", "a turn". There's a difference. If a creature is surprised at the start of combat, they can't move or take actions during their turn, but they do still take a turn. And at the end of their first turn, they are no longer surprised. So whether they're surprised or not, you still have to be ahead of them in the initiative order for either feature of Assassinate to kick in. The only exception is if a creature joins the fray later in combat and rolls lower initiative than you do, you'll get a chance to attack them before they've taken a turn, and thereby get Advantage on your first round of attacks against them.
And this is why taking the Alert feat is so helpful for Assassins :)