Why are you struggling? Even a Tome warlock should mostly be just doing eldritch blast. Tome gives you a lot of flexibility outside the combat. If you are trying to compete with your spellcasting against any other full caster, you are doing it wrong.
Well first my fun is not wrong. ... that aside, "a Tome warlock should mostly be just doing eldritch blast." doesn't even make since because the tome feature gives the warlock more 3 cantrips of any class and the book of ancients tome exclusive gives the class ritual spells, both indicating the subclass is intended to be more spell reliant the way pact of the blade implies a more melee oriented warlock and pact of the chain is with an invisible telepathic link is bent toward being a scout. So while the rituals give the class a great deal of flexibility out of combat the cantrips which are the heart of the path are more than capable of bein useful combat alternatives for example shocking grasp in close combat against armored opponents but also your assuming that the only viable action in combat is to do damage... when casting in combat "spare the dying" could save your healer when no one else can, Vicious Mockery could be used to defend someone from dying at all, shillelagh lets the time warlock imitate a pact of blade, and Thorn Whip allows for some interesting crowd control. My point is the class design is not for JUST out of combat flexibility... its for caster flexibility in general and it works doing that making fun and interesting to play as a caster that doesn't just doesn't keep up late game. Their is no late game invocation that off sets this at higher levels the way both the other paths get. If you want to be an eldritch blast dispenser go a head, but if there was and eldritch invocation that gave level 6 - 9 spell slots and one that gave like 2 first level spell slots restricted to tome it would be appropriate in my opinion.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
So how is being a one trick pony different from a champion fighter or a ranger?
In part its perception. A fighter, a ranger, a rogue, a monk, a barbarian, and yes even a paladin are all primarily melee classes with tricks.
Most people will consider bards, sorcerers, wizards, druids, clerics, and warlocks are primarily casters.
As a result your going to see people expect them to do those well and other who will find it interesting to build against that. A sorcerer can actually be a deadly swords man for example combining shadow blade (concentration) and booming blade (not-concentration) for a single melee attack that does 3d8 to 12d8 multiple turns in a row.
The oddity with the warlocks "one trick" is that they are actually very good at being melee and less at being caster with the exception of eldritch blast. in my opinion.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Having played a Tomelock in a campaign that ended up being one long dungeon crawl, I can definitely say that the versatility of a Tomelock is DM dependent. Does your DM give you opportunities to find ritual spells? No, well there goes your ability to help the party out of combat with your magic versatility. DM rarely lets you have short rests? you are going to either use your two spell slots right away or not use them at all because you need to keep them in reserve because the next fight might be harder.
More cantrips do give you more versatility. However, if you can use Eldritch Blast in a situation in a combat situation, that is likely going to do the most damage. Now this isn't much different than an archer or melee based character who relies on a weapon attach. However, Wizards and Sorcerers have much more spell casting versatility in combat. The extra number of spell slots provides you more options in a fight than a Warlock with their two spell slots provides. If you compare a Tomelock to other full casters, the other casters have more combat options.
In the right campaign I can see a Tomelock being a lot of fun. In the wrong campaign it really is wash, rinse and repeat Eldritch Blast.
Having played a Tomelock in a campaign that ended up being one long dungeon crawl, I can definitely say that the versatility of a Tomelock is DM dependent. Does your DM give you opportunities to find ritual spells? No, well there goes your ability to help the party out of combat with your magic versatility. DM rarely lets you have short rests? you are going to either use your two spell slots right away or not use them at all because you need to keep them in reserve because the next fight might be harder.
More cantrips do give you more versatility. However, if you can use Eldritch Blast in a situation in a combat situation, that is likely going to do the most damage. Now this isn't much different than an archer or melee based character who relies on a weapon attach. However, Wizards and Sorcerers have much more spell casting versatility in combat. The extra number of spell slots provides you more options in a fight than a Warlock with their two spell slots provides. If you compare a Tomelock to other full casters, the other casters have more combat options.
In the right campaign I can see a Tomelock being a lot of fun. In the wrong campaign it really is wash, rinse and repeat Eldritch Blast.
This. I am playing a Tomelock now, with Book of shadows I have a lot of cantrip versality, and have a good set of rituals to use. Short rests aren't hard to come by either.
But the group wanted to be a little more gritty in play. So, while we can rest, it doesn't help if the next counter is deadly. Then you have to think strategically on how to use a very scarce resource. The Wizard in the party has far more flexibility in spell choices, and the number of slots in that circumstance. The Invocations are focused on a playstyle to survive, vs role playing.
And it's fun running with the challenge of limited resources But as we level up, and the encounters do as well, so while I put myself into the campaign, and I wouldn't change the character a bit; I wanted more spell slots. I dipped into Cleric, and it solved it for that campaign..
Sure I have opinions of things that I want to change, and I would have something for every class/subclass without exception. But the campaign style is going to dictate your choices in most cases, and some are better suited than others. That's why you don't take a non-dex based Paladin into a party of stealthy operatives in a campaign that feels like "Thief" Unless you really want that challenge.
Fact of the matter the biggest downfall of warlock is that it is a one trick poney reguardless of what archetype you choose. In fact those archetypes only cement the one trick thing even more.
None of that is true. The Warlock is only a "one trick pony" if you choose to make it one. It absolutely is not a necessary result of the way the class is built.
In the right campaign I can see a Tomelock being a lot of fun. In the wrong campaign it really is wash, rinse and repeat Eldritch Blast.
Warlocks don't need to spam Eldritch Blast to be effective in combat. Combat efficacy isn't as simple as a damage calculator, and sometimes a damage focus just isn't what the team needs. A Tome Warlock allows you to have that damage focus ready for when it's needed, and also have a wealth of other combat options, for when debuffs, party buffs, subterfuge (if you think that is only an out of combat thing, you need to rethink combat), mutli-target damage, etc. My Tome Warlock in CoS has 6 cantrips, only 1 of which isn't useful in combat, and even that one (mage hand) probably could be if I really tried to push it to be. I was going to grab Minor Illusion, but I didn't want 2 cantrips in common with the Arcane Trickster in the group.
I have Find Familiar, an Owl familiar, and Spare The Dying, which helps make up for the lack of a dedicated healer, Chill Touch for hurting an undead while also debuffing them, EB for pure damage, Booming Blade for locking down targets that proc Opportunity Attacks or punishing them for ignoring me, and Shillelagh for turning my cane into a Cha-based magic rapier, more or less. Mage Hand or Chill Touch may get dropped in favor of Word of Radiance, depending on what another player does, or if we get one or more allies with healing, I may ditch Spare the Dying.
Now, if I didn't need to be mixed-range, and be able to help keep people alive, and if I was optimizing more, I could drop half those cantrips, pick up Word of Radiance, and a couple cantrips that use different saves with different secondary effects, to gain even more combat versatility from range. As it is, though, I've used those cantrips to shore up two party weaknesses without losing my own efficacy in my primary role. I can decide what the party needs every round, and most of the time I can provide it.
Now, if your DM doesn't allow you to find rituals to learn, they should tell you that when you take the class, so you can either choose a different boon, or at least avoid Book of Ancient Secrets. But even if you only ever get the two ritual spells, Find Familiar and a second one chosen according to what is missing in the group is still a really good use of an Invocation. Familiars are insanely useful. An Owl can move adjacent to an enemy, use Help, and fly back to safety without Opportunity Attacks, and can help you scout, search, etc.
Having played a Tomelock in a campaign that ended up being one long dungeon crawl, I can definitely say that the versatility of a Tomelock is DM dependent. Does your DM give you opportunities to find ritual spells? No, well there goes your ability to help the party out of combat with your magic versatility. DM rarely lets you have short rests? you are going to either use your two spell slots right away or not use them at all because you need to keep them in reserve because the next fight might be harder.
More cantrips do give you more versatility. However, if you can use Eldritch Blast in a situation in a combat situation, that is likely going to do the most damage. Now this isn't much different than an archer or melee based character who relies on a weapon attach. However, Wizards and Sorcerers have much more spell casting versatility in combat. The extra number of spell slots provides you more options in a fight than a Warlock with their two spell slots provides. If you compare a Tomelock to other full casters, the other casters have more combat options.
In the right campaign I can see a Tomelock being a lot of fun. In the wrong campaign it really is wash, rinse and repeat Eldritch Blast.
This. I am playing a Tomelock now, with Book of shadows I have a lot of cantrip versality, and have a good set of rituals to use. Short rests aren't hard to come by either.
But the group wanted to be a little more gritty in play. So, while we can rest, it doesn't help if the next counter is deadly. Then you have to think strategically on how to use a very scarce resource. The Wizard in the party has far more flexibility in spell choices, and the number of slots in that circumstance. The Invocations are focused on a playstyle to survive, vs role playing.
And it's fun running with the challenge of limited resources But as we level up, and the encounters do as well, so while I put myself into the campaign, and I wouldn't change the character a bit; I wanted more spell slots. I dipped into Cleric, and it solved it for that campaign..
Sure I have opinions of things that I want to change, and I would have something for every class/subclass without exception. But the campaign style is going to dictate your choices in most cases, and some are better suited than others. That's why you don't take a non-dex based Paladin into a party of stealthy operatives in a campaign that feels like "Thief" Unless you really want that challenge.
Similar, As a Tome warlock, I have a story GM who only enjoys and average of one or 2 combats in an 8 hours session before he wants to get back to more of the role play side. Since those combat encounters are in support of story Its fairly unusual them to be climatic fights during different days. This means my ability to use recharge those slots is only useful when we go to a dungeon (which happens but its the oddity). When you have the groups Cleric, Wizard, and Bard dump casting up to 10 spells for the "boss" encounter an me casting 2 I am trying to find the most use of them and to limit by eldritch blast spam having taken repelling blast for crowd control helps and shocking grasp for escaping melee... works but they are only going to open up more as casters. So I have been talking with my GM about multi-classing into cleric or sorcerer to open up a few first level spell slots so that I can change tactics a bit more as a warlock. I also took magic initiate Warlock to get a free cast of hex and some more can trips. Its working out though I would have been happy with an invocation that granted me a couple of long rest 1st level spells so I don't feel like I have to hold on to the precious slots so carefully.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well... Think what you want... But the groups im in and the two i dm...
The one i play in... Im a barbarian zealot warlock... Have no problems managing spells... For yes thanks to barbarian side i have much other things to do.
The two i dm...
The first... The players always shoots down everything in their role play. Mostly because thats what they like and thus often waste spells on their companions for fun.
The other group as the must do everything today syndrome. So they often get into 3 fights in a row. And guess what... The warlock cannot stand that heat.
Now your argument about dm is bullshit. Because tells the story that players styles do not matter as long as the dm knows how to balance a game. To that ill say... Balance is a myth in d&d and every dms will tell you that much. There are always problems with players as well as dms.
While i agree ritual casting and tome helps... Cantrips arent all that helpfull.. You know casting resistence in a fight is useless. Same with prestidigitation and message. So what you are telling me is that you cantrips that does small abilities in combat. Like the bard cantrip. But thats ridiculous because in the end you are just better off using eldritch blast with repelling for the numerous triggers it provides as well as the damage. And if you start comparing eldritch blast to other cantrips... None are actually as strong as it is. Thats not to mention cantrips at higher levels where eldritch blast scale well and not the others...
I feel like you are downsizing your own character in order to proove your point. I for one preffer to min max my character and leave his flaws to the role play.
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Well... Think what you want... But the groups im in and the two i dm...
The one i play in... Im a barbarian zealot warlock... Have no problems managing spells... For yes thanks to barbarian side i have much other things to do.
The two i dm...
The first... The players always shoots down everything in their role play. Mostly because thats what they like and thus often waste spells on their companions for fun.
The other group as the must do everything today syndrome. So they often get into 3 fights in a row. And guess what... The warlock cannot stand that heat.
Now your argument about dm is bullshit. Because tells the story that players styles do not matter as long as the dm knows how to balance a game. To that ill say... Balance is a myth in d&d and every dms will tell you that much. There are always problems with players as well as dms.
While i agree ritual casting and tome helps... Cantrips arent all that helpfull.. You know casting resistence in a fight is useless. Same with prestidigitation and message. So what you are telling me is that you cantrips that does small abilities in combat. Like the bard cantrip. But thats ridiculous because in the end you are just better off using eldritch blast with repelling for the numerous triggers it provides as well as the damage. And if you start comparing eldritch blast to other cantrips... None are actually as strong as it is. Thats not to mention cantrips at higher levels where eldritch blast scale well and not the others...
I feel like you are downsizing your own character in order to proove your point. I for one preffer to min max my character and leave his flaws to the role play.
I have to disagree with you on two points.
1. "Now your argument about dm is bullshit. Because tells the story that players styles do not matter " That's not a fair or even accurate representation of my comments because playing a tome warlock as a caster was a player choice and as I said playing a melee hexblade is not likely to have the same issue. So I agree with you that player style can minimize this. At the same time your multi-classing with barbarian and consistent posts on this and other forums about how great Warlock is as a multi-class show that the class is very useful and fun for specific plays styles but its down fall at later levels as a pure warlock caster are a result of the insufficiency of Mystic Arcanum that depict the class as a caster design but lack the substance of other casters at higher levels. Its a design that leads players toward a path then fails to support that path. If a player takes a different less initiative path (like the melee Sorcerer I mentioned above) the class actually has greater support. I started playing a warlock with an initial design looking at lower levels where warlocks hold up as casters but as I have leveled and keep looing ahead I then realized I as a The Old One Patron Tome Warlock will be come virtually useless with the exception of eldritch blast however there are not sufficient eldritch invocations to do anything more with eldritch blast. After getting repelling blast and Agonizing blast at level 2, there are extremely limited for example eldritch spear is situational at best, grasp of hadar is in opposition to repelling blast, and Lance of Lethargy is the only other reliable compatible ability though it becomes less useful when hit level 11 and can basically stop forward progress with repelling blast. This means that as a tome your basically taking Agonizing blast for damage, repelling blast for crowd control, and Book of Ancient secrets of out of combat versatility then your looking for toys and expecting your 2 spell slots to do something which is were the class fall short (perhaps just the subclass). Now if you compare that to Pact of the blade (melee) with life drinker, thirsty blade, eldritch smite, eldritch smite, and improved pact weapon that all stack perfectly, or Pact of the Chain (scout) that basically lets you scout from a bar and just choose eldritch invocations for fun and subterfuge. So you have this caster designed archetype that is actually better at scouting and melee but late game class design geared to be a caster that fails to actually keep up with other casters... so people end up multi-classing to a caster class for basic spell slots to provide the flexibility to loosen the class in order to make it viable as a caster class using the "caster subclass". So player choice is defiantly a part of it but I also think GM play style allowing or not allowing multiple small fights and ritual spell in order to make the most out of recharging spell slots as well as finding enough and appropriate ritual spells to make book of ancient secrets useful. I am very sure that the design of the class toward casting spells without supporting the diversity of other classes really hurts the class.
2. Your other point is "thats ridiculous because in the end you are just better off using eldritch blast with repelling for the numerous triggers it provides as well as the damage. And if you start comparing eldritch blast to other cantrips... None are actually as strong as it is." To which I did agree that cantrips can't be useful a well placed viscous mockery can change a fight, spare the dying can save characters, shocking grasp is not only more likely to hit high AC armored enemies but can allow EVERYONE engaged with them a chance to escape/reposition, and while you don't need to be a tome warlock to get it chill touch has saved my group a couple of times against enemies that regenerate more damage than I can do with eldritch blast (stopping regeneration is like guaranteed damage on top of the damage of the spell since you would have to remove it otherwise, the same concept of reverse healing by buffing players with temporary hit point instead of returning hit points they already lost). The point here is that your gaging the value of casting almost solely from the min/maxer power gaming stand point of "the most damage is the best spell". Where I am saying, the flaw to the Warlock as a caster is all about the lose of versatility for being able to hold a constant minimum for repetitive battles they will not normally use unless the GM (and yes players of the group) push for multiple encounters between long rests. Your though of using only eldritch blast is the exact out come of not having the versatility to actually do anything else. The only spell I can think of that tends to take warlocks away from that would be Enervation which would be an excellent spell option for a warlock moving forward from level 9... but they are stopped level 5 spell slots so it just scales out... If there was and eldritch invocation that with a level 12 and pact of the tome prerequisite which allowed Mystic Arcanum to cast lower level spells at higher level it would open up a lot of this.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
My solutions were different the mystic arcanum which i do think are bad. My solutions are better though... Trap invocations... Simply let them be cast without a spellslot once per long rest. They become much better. As for warlock spell slot... Im trying to give them back every fights. Or giving faster short rest. My players actually like 15 minute short rest more then 1 hour and do understand that healing with hd do requires 1 hour. From that fighter and bard both do not hesitate in using their skills now.
Thats my answer.
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After reading 5 pages of this, theres one thing lacking. The aspect of RolePlaying. Warlocks, with all the invocations available, opens for so much fun RPing. Even the invocations that might be considered a TRAPetity TRAP for the munchkins (or min/maxers or optimizers or whatever you call them) can still be fun and used in so many ways if your DM doesnt lack imagination and sometimes bending the RAW a little bit. Thaumaturgy was used last session by me (at my DMs approval) when I cast a Dimension Door to make a spectacular entrance during a boss fight. A tiefling laughing wickedly coming out of a magical door full of flames right infront of a dumb giant and even dumber hobgoblins does wonders to moral! Especially a tiefling warlock, who is also a werewolf, that is known to be immune to anything but magical and silver weapons.
What Im trying to say here is that numbers isnt everything, its the way you use the RAW or the options you have that makes fun in funeral (foes funerals ofc). Not everything have to be optimized towards combat to be awesome and orgasmic. Its all up how you as a DM run the game and the freedom of imagination you let your players play with. Oh and remember they encourage you to play the game your way, even bending the rules or ignoring them and etc. Even though its a RAW rule, it is there on the DMs discretion to help the players and the DM have a good time.
After reading 5 pages of this, theres one thing lacking. The aspect of RolePlaying. Warlocks, with all the invocations available, opens for so much fun RPing. Even the invocations that might be considered a TRAPetity TRAP for the munchkins (or min/maxers or optimizers or whatever you call them) can still be fun and used in so many ways if your DM doesnt lack imagination and sometimes bending the RAW a little bit. Thaumaturgy was used last session by me (at my DMs approval) when I cast a Dimension Door to make a spectacular entrance during a boss fight. A tiefling laughing wickedly coming out of a magical door full of flames right infront of a dumb giant and even dumber hobgoblins does wonders to moral! Especially a tiefling warlock, who is also a werewolf, that is known to be immune to anything but magical and silver weapons.
What Im trying to say here is that numbers isnt everything, its the way you use the RAW or the options you have that makes fun in funeral (foes funerals ofc). Not everything have to be optimized towards combat to be awesome and orgasmic. Its all up how you as a DM run the game and the freedom of imagination you let your players play with. Oh and remember they encourage you to play the game your way, even bending the rules or ignoring them and etc. Even though its a RAW rule, it is there on the DMs discretion to help the players and the DM have a good time.
I don't disagree but Role play does not have to come at the expense of combat ether. If you play a pact of the chain for example, the imp is the scout, not you and as a result "you' can be an excellent scout and pick any invocations you want to for role play without losing any of your effectiveness in what the subclass design tell you is your "Job" or primary function in the group. No one is talking about role play because role play is inherent and actually does rely on the class at all. The class can give you some good tools for it but I enjoy role play more if I have some function in the party to feed purpose to and inform my story. The Pact of the blade is a fighter but you role play what kind of fighter. The difference we are talking about her is that the Pact of the Tome doesn't hold up on his job, if I want make it all story I can but if I want to make it a functional comparable caster at moving forward from level 9 the class falls apart as a caster and my no longer sport my role play as a powerful caster. So please don't discount the need, desires, and concerns of other players based on the notion that "our play is wrong" because we aren't focusing on role play. First because they are not mutually elusive and secondly because functional character design can improve your role play by supporting the role of your character. Anyone can role play a failing caster but you need to actually be descent at casting to role play a Master Warlock of doom or you become comic relief while your trying to be serious.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
TBH, no one really asked about RP cause it's not what the thread is about at all. Call Munchkin all you like but OP straight up asked about mechanics and that's what is being argued, mostly.
Actually he was not asking about min/maxing in combat, but how a warlock can help him fill his role as a shapechanging punishing vigilanteish character. And I just pointed out that its not all about the numbers, but how one uses the cards one are dealt.
The one thing i hate about people who prioritise role playing more... Is that they way too often breaks the rules.
I for one think rules are there for a reason. I dont have a problem with adjusting the rules if they need to be. But reality is... Why have the books if you just want to roleplay without rules ? Rules are a necessity in this kind of game... Otherwise ill just outright attacks 50 times the same creature until its a bloody mush.
My biggest problem with allowing such thaumaturgy uses is that after that most players will try to break other spells as well. Sake of being fun doesnt matter if you break all rules just to be abusive.
Just saying... You broke a mechanic to have your roleplay element and gain an advantage... Thats what we call a cheater or a power gamer in this case since you asked the dm. I have one of these in my group and if i would give him even a finger... Hed take the whole arm.
Sorry but roleplay doesnt mean you can break the rules because fun.
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Just to be clear. If I use Thaumaturgy to cause an unlocked book on a table to burst open and flutter through its pages. Am I a cheater? Hated even.
What if locked window shutters shake against their latches?
What if I describe my Eldritch Blast as an intense beam of unholy energy... Or what if when I cast Prestidigitation the sound and image of doves springs from my hat?
If you were, it wasn't clear at all, as I didn't complain about a DM, nor about balance. I was referring that we were running a challenging campaign, and while the balance is different, it isn't the norm for many groups. But that may not have been clear, and that's my bad.
However, if you need to min max, you need to do it for a campaign. That includes non-combat encounters. Sure you can do it for just combat, but that's arguably half the game. If your campaign needs you to be stealthy, you will make different decisions than if you were going to be on a warfront. Invocation choices, spell choices, feat choices are all variables in that equation.
Cantrip variety is very helpful, but they are closer to niche uses to be certain. But, that can certainly factor into min maxing because they impact things before the fight.
Eldritch Blast does the most damage (assuming Agonizing) clearly. But probabilities sometimes work out that you might have a better chance of a target failing a save, vs. hitting him with Eldritch.
Another case; my lock, with a cleric dip is a Death Domain cleric. With Toll the Dead, on damaged targets within 5 feet of each other, that is at level 5, 2d12 on each compared to 1d10+3 on each for on bolt on each. 14 on two targets average vs 8 average on two targets.
You need to hit an object; can't use Eldritch for that; need Firebolt.
I need to dig a trench to defend a farm. Every 6 seconds I can dig 5x5x5 of loose earth with Mold Earth. Trench in no time.
Rogue scouts ahead; Message allows for two way communication quietly.
Prevent a target from healing; chill touch.
Prestidigitation to light a torch as a distraction, so the rogue can open up with assassination.
As for DURING a fight, only the first two, and maybe the third is relevant. If I have to use a message spell in the heat of combat, I'm going to question my choices.
And as you pointed out, there are a lot of suboptimal choices; (I don't like the limited expand my spell list, for only once a day with my slot.) And some of them are suboptimal for certain play styles. None are wrong in my mind, if you are having fun. And what might be a ****** build in one campaign, might be very strong in another. Mileage will vary.
In your opinion is warlock bad? Do you think it needs to multiclass, or is only a class that is dipped into multiclassing for other classes. I want to play a tiefling fiend patron, chain pact, that has the invocation that allow him to cast disguise self at will, along with getting the actor feat. My goal is to create a character that can infidelity keep changing his appearance to suit the situation, get people to trust him, or frame others, but is warlock not the right class for this, does warlock get outshone by others
So to revise my answer. Since your playing Pact of the Chain as a shapeshifting spy/infiltrator you should be fine. The issues I have with the warlock are actually isolated to the pact of the tome .... which I happened to discover as a result of me picking pact of the tome in my current campaign. Pact of the Chain really frees you to do the kind of build your looking for, while pact of the blade is pretty heavy on "required" evocations to maintain a relevant level to other melee fighters (partially dependent on if your party relies on your melee contribution to hold the line) and Tome simply fells to live up to its moniker or the versatility of the design.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
In your opinion is warlock bad? Do you think it needs to multiclass, or is only a class that is dipped into multiclassing for other classes. I want to play a tiefling fiend patron, chain pact, that has the invocation that allow him to cast disguise self at will, along with getting the actor feat. My goal is to create a character that can infidelity keep changing his appearance to suit the situation, get people to trust him, or frame others, but is warlock not the right class for this, does warlock get outshone by others
So to revise my answer. Since your playing Pact of the Chain as a shapeshifting spy/infiltrator you should be fine. The issues I have with the warlock are actually isolated to the pact of the tome .... which I happened to discover as a result of me picking pact of the tome in my current campaign. Pact of the Chain really frees you to do the kind of build your looking for, while pact of the blade is pretty heavy on "required" evocations to maintain a relevant level to other melee fighters (partially dependent on if your party relies on your melee contribution to hold the line) and Tome simply fells to live up to its moniker or the versatility of the design.
How does the Tome fail to live up to anything? It's an enormous increase in versatility, and can be used to get you most of what the other two boons give.
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How do you manage to claim people are agreeing with you while simultaneously disagreeing with them?
These two statements are not the same:
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It's different cause people are less likely to describe attacking with a long bow with interesting detail... Or are they...
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Having played a Tomelock in a campaign that ended up being one long dungeon crawl, I can definitely say that the versatility of a Tomelock is DM dependent. Does your DM give you opportunities to find ritual spells? No, well there goes your ability to help the party out of combat with your magic versatility. DM rarely lets you have short rests? you are going to either use your two spell slots right away or not use them at all because you need to keep them in reserve because the next fight might be harder.
More cantrips do give you more versatility. However, if you can use Eldritch Blast in a situation in a combat situation, that is likely going to do the most damage. Now this isn't much different than an archer or melee based character who relies on a weapon attach. However, Wizards and Sorcerers have much more spell casting versatility in combat. The extra number of spell slots provides you more options in a fight than a Warlock with their two spell slots provides. If you compare a Tomelock to other full casters, the other casters have more combat options.
In the right campaign I can see a Tomelock being a lot of fun. In the wrong campaign it really is wash, rinse and repeat Eldritch Blast.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well... Think what you want... But the groups im in and the two i dm...
The one i play in... Im a barbarian zealot warlock... Have no problems managing spells... For yes thanks to barbarian side i have much other things to do.
The two i dm...
The first... The players always shoots down everything in their role play. Mostly because thats what they like and thus often waste spells on their companions for fun.
The other group as the must do everything today syndrome. So they often get into 3 fights in a row. And guess what... The warlock cannot stand that heat.
Now your argument about dm is bullshit. Because tells the story that players styles do not matter as long as the dm knows how to balance a game. To that ill say... Balance is a myth in d&d and every dms will tell you that much. There are always problems with players as well as dms.
While i agree ritual casting and tome helps... Cantrips arent all that helpfull.. You know casting resistence in a fight is useless. Same with prestidigitation and message. So what you are telling me is that you cantrips that does small abilities in combat. Like the bard cantrip. But thats ridiculous because in the end you are just better off using eldritch blast with repelling for the numerous triggers it provides as well as the damage. And if you start comparing eldritch blast to other cantrips... None are actually as strong as it is. Thats not to mention cantrips at higher levels where eldritch blast scale well and not the others...
I feel like you are downsizing your own character in order to proove your point. I for one preffer to min max my character and leave his flaws to the role play.
DM of two gaming groups.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Sorry about confusion... I was answering nthal !
My solutions were different the mystic arcanum which i do think are bad. My solutions are better though... Trap invocations... Simply let them be cast without a spellslot once per long rest. They become much better. As for warlock spell slot... Im trying to give them back every fights. Or giving faster short rest. My players actually like 15 minute short rest more then 1 hour and do understand that healing with hd do requires 1 hour. From that fighter and bard both do not hesitate in using their skills now.
Thats my answer.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
After reading 5 pages of this, theres one thing lacking. The aspect of RolePlaying. Warlocks, with all the invocations available, opens for so much fun RPing. Even the invocations that might be considered a TRAPetity TRAP for the munchkins (or min/maxers or optimizers or whatever you call them) can still be fun and used in so many ways if your DM doesnt lack imagination and sometimes bending the RAW a little bit. Thaumaturgy was used last session by me (at my DMs approval) when I cast a Dimension Door to make a spectacular entrance during a boss fight. A tiefling laughing wickedly coming out of a magical door full of flames right infront of a dumb giant and even dumber hobgoblins does wonders to moral! Especially a tiefling warlock, who is also a werewolf, that is known to be immune to anything but magical and silver weapons.
What Im trying to say here is that numbers isnt everything, its the way you use the RAW or the options you have that makes fun in funeral (foes funerals ofc). Not everything have to be optimized towards combat to be awesome and orgasmic. Its all up how you as a DM run the game and the freedom of imagination you let your players play with. Oh and remember they encourage you to play the game your way, even bending the rules or ignoring them and etc. Even though its a RAW rule, it is there on the DMs discretion to help the players and the DM have a good time.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
TBH, no one really asked about RP cause it's not what the thread is about at all. Call Munchkin all you like but OP straight up asked about mechanics and that's what is being argued, mostly.
Actually he was not asking about min/maxing in combat, but how a warlock can help him fill his role as a shapechanging punishing vigilanteish character. And I just pointed out that its not all about the numbers, but how one uses the cards one are dealt.
The one thing i hate about people who prioritise role playing more... Is that they way too often breaks the rules.
I for one think rules are there for a reason. I dont have a problem with adjusting the rules if they need to be. But reality is... Why have the books if you just want to roleplay without rules ? Rules are a necessity in this kind of game... Otherwise ill just outright attacks 50 times the same creature until its a bloody mush.
My biggest problem with allowing such thaumaturgy uses is that after that most players will try to break other spells as well. Sake of being fun doesnt matter if you break all rules just to be abusive.
Just saying... You broke a mechanic to have your roleplay element and gain an advantage... Thats what we call a cheater or a power gamer in this case since you asked the dm. I have one of these in my group and if i would give him even a finger... Hed take the whole arm.
Sorry but roleplay doesnt mean you can break the rules because fun.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Just to be clear. If I use Thaumaturgy to cause an unlocked book on a table to burst open and flutter through its pages. Am I a cheater? Hated even.
What if locked window shutters shake against their latches?
What if I describe my Eldritch Blast as an intense beam of unholy energy... Or what if when I cast Prestidigitation the sound and image of doves springs from my hat?
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As for DURING a fight, only the first two, and maybe the third is relevant. If I have to use a message spell in the heat of combat, I'm going to question my choices.
And as you pointed out, there are a lot of suboptimal choices; (I don't like the limited expand my spell list, for only once a day with my slot.) And some of them are suboptimal for certain play styles. None are wrong in my mind, if you are having fun. And what might be a ****** build in one campaign, might be very strong in another. Mileage will vary.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
We do bones, motherf***ker!