I have seen the pact of the time being rated as less impactful then blade or chain. This is just saying the pact ability on the abilities received from the initial selection. Taking the invocation granting Ritual spells, which is only available tonwarlocks taking the time pact, changes everything. Saying the pact without saying the invocation associated with the pact seems shortsighted!
In your opinion is warlock bad? Do you think it needs to multiclass, or is only a class that is dipped into multiclassing for other classes. I want to play a tiefling fiend patron, chain pact, that has the invocation that allow him to cast disguise self at will, along with getting the actor feat. My goal is to create a character that can infidelity keep changing his appearance to suit the situation, get people to trust him, or frame others, but is warlock not the right class for this, does warlock get outshone by others
So to revise my answer. Since your playing Pact of the Chain as a shapeshifting spy/infiltrator you should be fine. The issues I have with the warlock are actually isolated to the pact of the tome .... which I happened to discover as a result of me picking pact of the tome in my current campaign. Pact of the Chain really frees you to do the kind of build your looking for, while pact of the blade is pretty heavy on "required" evocations to maintain a relevant level to other melee fighters (partially dependent on if your party relies on your melee contribution to hold the line) and Tome simply fells to live up to its moniker or the versatility of the design.
How does the Tome fail to live up to anything? It's an enormous increase in versatility, and can be used to get you most of what the other two boons give.
I thought so too when I read it which is why I then played it and it turns out not as much as you might think, but there are some GM requirements.
1. 3 cantrip from any class sounds good... So I took, Guidance for its out of combat utility, Mending for the ability to repair in dungeons (niche but something no one else had), and shocking grasp for touch attack so I can cast a spell in melee combat without disadvantage and possibly move to escape. Having gone through all the cantrip at the time (pre-zanthar's), I looked at:
Spare the Dying: save the healer ...I didn't take it because it is situational and we have a cleric, paladin, and bard all with healing in the group as well as potions it would be rare that its not covered so rare that it feels like a waste with my group.
Shillelagh: cheep pact of the blade, melee combat attack, and opportunity attacks ... I didn't take it because I don't want to be in melee as a Pact of the Tome Warlcok and one hit with this does not let me escape melee where shocking grasp does by removing the targets reaction and has advantage on attacks vs metal armored enemies to is more likely to work.
Sacred Flame: DC attack instead of hit attack for those high AC enemies ... I didn't take the because I know when it comes time I am going to cast eldritch blast with hex if possible and risk the miss for the superior damage.
Vicious Mockery: spare and ally by making the enemy miss an attack ... I didn't take the because it doesn't scale well, their is no guarantee it will actually help and it would be more useful to try and kill the enemy with eldritch blast or knock it back with repelling blast letting my ally escape range or seek cover.
Message: good for scouting and secret messages ... I didn't take the because I am The Old One Patron and have 30ft telepathy so I can speak one way without making noise and the group does generally scouting more than 30ft ahead so that I don't die in an ambush and so that they can be close to the action.
Thorn Whip: good crowd control option and melee attack spell so no disadvantage on target in 5ft ... I didn't take the because I don't really want to pull target to me for crowd control so I took repelling blast to push them away and shocking grasp for melee.
... So maybe there is something new in Zanthar's (which was not an option when I choose) but despite the "flexibility" I was expecting with 3 cantrips from any class... I actually ended up taking mending for unique function because I couldn't find but 2 cantrips that I didn't have access too as a warlock that actually matter without being redundant. Redundancy is not flexibility. If you have any ideas or arguments against these I am glad to listen but I even find now that I have multiple shots with eldritch blast I don't use shocking grasp because I can use repelling blast twice with disadvantage and knock one or more enemies way achieving the same effect but it can work with more than one target. Guidance it the only really good choice I made because while the cleric took it too, I often cast it on myself or the party rogue while he is too far away to help.
2. Ritual casting... sounds great. Wanted to get it. Looked at all the ritual spells I want and they are all Wizard spell. We have a wizard, and we rarely get scrolls. The result is that the wizard takes the few scrolls we get and casts all the rituals and I would be the third taking his moment to shine. So do to lack of scrolls and group agreement that the wizard should be casting the rituals... Their is no point in this for me. We didn't start with a wizard in the group so I was going to but then a PC died and their alt was a wizard...
So the biggest issue I see here it the tome at best is stealing other class functions... if those classes are in your group your not useful. If you have two melee (pact of the blade) or even two scouts (pact of the chain) and happen to have some spell toys... no problem... But the tome does not embrace what makes warlock different or free them to do "warlock caster things" so that they are not stepping on others toes instead you get a few eldritch invocations that Blade and Chain can also use ... I choose tome thinking it was the most flexible but now I think Chain is because their familiar can engage in a way that lets them be melee with the new Shadow Blade spell, ranged with eldritch blast, and still pick all the more obscure more fun eldritch invocations. I really feel like I wanted to be Warlock caster and chose tome only to realize I am an Eldritch Blast Archer....
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I could see this. It's not so much a note on the Warlock or Pact of the Tome as it is on party makeup. If you have exceptionally useful abilities, that are shared with a party member, and that ability doesn't improve in some way from that, its not great.
That said Pact if the Tome could stop at giving Guidance and Find Familiar and I'd see its use. Having multiple familiars in a party isn't stepping on anyone's toes and is a combat boon, not to mention a non-combat boon. Guidance is incredibly useful if you've got the concentration to spare. I essentially roll 1d4+1d20+x for everything when I can. You don't really get that when someone else in the party has guidance, cause they aren't constantly going to roll it to support others. They'll only share it in those clutch moments or when you fail and retry.
The rest of the Pact and Evocation are just flavor. They can be useful, sure, but they don't need to be. Take Shillelagh, for those moments you want to coup de grace like you mean it. Take Produce Flame cause carrying around bare, exposed flames as a light source is only infinitely cooler than lighting a torch. Take Thaumaturgy... Because its Thaumaturgy.
A note on Spare the Dying: the affect of this spell is mimicked by any character using a Healer's Kit. You can get 10 charges of Spare the Dying for 5 gp.
Healer's Kit. ...The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
Spare the Dying. (1 action) You touch a living creature that has 0 hit points. The creature becomes stable. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.
Re: ClaytonCross; Yes there are other cantrips from Xanathars that are worth looking at. Is the breadth of cantrips useful, is certainly a party make up question and a character build one, and you outline very valid reasons why it might not make sense. In my case, Toll the Dead has a specific multitarget case because of my build. Works for me, but If I didn't do that, then casting Eldritch Blast at disadvantage may not be the worst scenario.
As far as ritual casting; having two casters with this isn't bad either, as you can each run different spells. If you are scroll poor as you point out, then sure the value is somewhat diminished. But I made a point of swapping out known spells at every level, and scribing that spell as a ritual only in the book.
Re: BDaddLy: on Spare the Dying very valid point on the healing kit (which somehow I missed. as I never use the kit). But one case I have used personally, is to have a familiar stand on the body, and use the familiar to deliver Spare the Dying as a touch. Again this is an oddball case (and we are all great on finding these), because a Healing Word would be better, and a Cleric with the Grave domain can do it as a ranged cast on their own.
As far as ritual casting; having two casters with this isn't bad either, as you can each run different spells. If you are scroll poor as you point out, then sure the value is somewhat diminished. But I made a point of swapping out known spells at every level, and scribing that spell as a ritual only in the book.
Plus XGtE has optional rules for scribing spell scrolls. If the DM allows it and you have the time and money, literally any other spellcaster in the group can scribe a scroll with a ritual on it for you. That gets expensive pretty fast, but it's an easy way to pick up 1st and 2nd level rituals.
In my opinion the extra cantrips, the starter rituals and the ability to cast Warlock spells you know as rituals already justifies the pact. Adding extra rituals on top of that is just icing.
So I hear the last 4 posts, and what it comes down to for me is that TOME has more of an issue with party redundancy and GM play style (not handing at rituals scrolls, we are level 6 and have not seen one yet) that Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Blade don't have. No one minds another familiar (particularly an invisible one that can inflict poison status or has devils sight for another set of eyes to keep watch) or another good sword in the fight. The extra cantrips and rituals are more party dependent but on top of that I don't believe they do justify the pact on their own since they don't actually give the pact of the tome anything non-group/GM dependent to make them useful in any group and with pact magic slot they are substantially less vestal casters than other full caster class even with these. This is not saying that the tome can't work just that the design almost seems built as a minor caster in support of the pact of the blade (like an eldritch knight) and pact of the chain (like a Beast Master Ranger... that works better) the result is that you have this one caster type that adds some of the typical features of other casters but doesn't bring them on pare with other casters at least not with out some additional supporting eldritch invocations like the pact of the Blade has. So my thought is that its an ok start but it needs support TOME specific invocations to prop it up a bit more. That's what I see right now anyway. Toll the dead actually improves the class with a DC to hit alternative for in melee spell casting but it also reduces the need for shocking grasp or shillelagh which to me adds to my point of having some cantrip toys but not having very impactful cantrips after guidance that I can't already get from the warlock class. Don't get me wrong at level 3 those cantrip are great they just don't do much after as you get higher in levels where The pact of the blade and Pact of the Chain are still very good as level 20.
I was going to post some ideas of the invocations I am talking about that might flesh out and fix the Pact of the tome ... In my opinion. I don't want to hijack the thread so I put it here:
If you are willing to consider the possibility of a more sustainable Pact of the Tome through supporting Eldritch invocations maybe give it a look and you could come up with something better or fix my ideas.
Over the course of this thread I have realized that its not warlocks but Pact of the Tome Warlocks that I see as suffering from:
needing for GM support party configuration conflict lack of abilities that hold up at higher level lack of supporting eldritch invocations
Eldritch invocations could fix all of these... In my opinion.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
It's true that Blade Pact has a lot of invocations that support it, but I find most people consider these a tax rather than an expansion of the playstyle. Adding more specific Invocations for both Tome and Chain is not necessarily the answer, when overall it might just be better if we had more Invocations all together
It's true that Blade Pact has a lot of invocations that support it, but I find most people consider these a tax rather than an expansion of the playstyle. Adding more specific Invocations for both Tome and Chain is not necessarily the answer, when overall it might just be better if we had more Invocations all together
Honestly, I think some of these invocations should be built into the boon. Pact of the Tome should come with Book of Ancient Secrets. Pact of the Chain should come with the initial Chain invocation you can take, and same for Pact of the Blade. Invocations that you feel you have to take to make the boon complete should come as part of the boon. Leaving those invocation slots for other invocations.
It's true that Blade Pact has a lot of invocations that support it, but I find most people consider these a tax rather than an expansion of the playstyle. Adding more specific Invocations for both Tome and Chain is not necessarily the answer, when overall it might just be better if we had more Invocations all together
Honestly, I think some of these invocations should be built into the boon. Pact of the Tome should come with Book of Ancient Secrets. Pact of the Chain should come with the initial Chain invocation you can take, and same for Pact of the Blade. Invocations that you feel you have to take to make the boon complete should come as part of the boon. Leaving those invocation slots for other invocations.
Like Thirsting Blade, which Hexblade of the blade pact 'lock wouldnt take that one? Actually just silly that you have to use one of your invo's to get that second attack when you are a melee warlock.
I've never had an issue with redundancy when taking Tome, either in terms of rituals or cantrips, nor issues with getting rituals (its one of the suggested Downtime activities, iirc, and you can discuss getting some rituals with your Patron too). In fact, in my experiences, its the best of the three options currently. For cantrips, I love getting my hands on Message, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, Control Flames, Light, Minor Image, Guidance, Thaumeturgy, sometimes I go the Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade route or a different secondary damage cantrip. There's a whole host of roleplaying potential as well as exploration benefits in all these. Dancing Lights, for instance, works extremely well if your warlock has even the slightest inclination towards stealth, subterfuge or scouting.
I don't think it really needs any improvement here.
Tax is an in built part of balance so I'm not against them existing. Yes, you "have" to take them if you're optimizing, but that's what you get to stop you from being a killer at every range with access to all the benefits of Hexblade/Blade Pact and no downsides etc etc
Like Thirsting Blade, which Hexblade of the blade pact 'lock wouldnt take that one? Actually just silly that you have to use one of your invo's to get that second attack when you are a melee warlock.
The only answer here is having 5 levels in Fighter, Ranger, or other class that provides an extra attack already, since they don't stack.
It would have been better as part of the Pact Boon though. It does feel like a "must have" and therefore isn't even an interesting choice and instead feels like a tax. Agonizing Blast feels about the same way for Chain and probably Tome as well.
I've never had an issue with redundancy when taking Tome, either in terms of rituals or cantrips, nor issues with getting rituals (its one of the suggested Downtime activities, iirc, and you can discuss getting some rituals with your Patron too). In fact, in my experiences, its the best of the three options currently. For cantrips, I love getting my hands on Message, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, Control Flames, Light, Minor Image, Guidance, Thaumeturgy, sometimes I go the Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade route or a different secondary damage cantrip. There's a whole host of roleplaying potential as well as exploration benefits in all these. Dancing Lights, for instance, works extremely well if your warlock has even the slightest inclination towards stealth, subterfuge or scouting.
I don't think it really needs any improvement here.
Sounds like your having a very different experience with the Pact than I am. I imagine that it largely GM and party differences which is part of my point. I do wander if you think warlocks should not get any more tome prerequisite eldritch invocations like the blade and even chain to a lesser degree? If not why? So you have something against warlocks have a caster pact that doesn't just steal its abilities from other classes?
I had not considered Shillelagh + booming blade (Or green flame blade) since xanthar's came out. My Tome warlock was created prior to xanthar's release so it wasn't really an option but I could see that as a viable melee option for tomes.... if your built to actually engage in melee. I am not, low constitute and strength and only a little dexterity. I mostly stay at range using eldritch (repelling) blast to manipulate enemy positions and aid in damage in battle. I have occasionally had the opportunity to use shatter but my GM tend to one enemy fights so I mostly got to use that because I was fighting a "boss" on a horse and I keep damaging him while killing his horse to slow his movement. (He had other soldiers deliver him horses 3 times... we kept the last horse after we killed him, lol)
So don't get me wrong, I am Great Old One, Pact of the Tome, warlock ... scout. The role-play and scout functionality is great. My only concern is that not only am I tired of having spell slot and being restricted as a caster to eldritch blast spam but my group almost domains it because if I run out of spell slot and don't have hex then my damage drops greatly and they complain I am not holding my weight at the same time the complain because I am a "caster" and all I normally get to do is cast eldritch blast so my turns are boring for them and me. I have been playing with spells but since I only have the 2 slots there is not much I can do. I did take magic initiate Warlock selecting hex as my initiate first level spell so I have been casting 3 spells since level 4 and that has helped dramatically in letting me test to find something useful that isn't eldritch blast as a ranged caster.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Sounds like your having a very different experience with the Pact than I am.
Not too big of a surprise, I suppose. Even the cantrips alone are going to depend heavily on player inclinations. I adore using them all the time, and usually a collect as many utility over combat ones as I can, while I also know there's a lot of people that are rather dismissive of cantrips. I suppose if you have a party with a wizard and cleric on top of warlock, there'd be too much overlap, but I've personally never ran into that issue before, and I imagine it has to be a fairly rare situation.
I do wander if you think warlocks should not get any more tome prerequisite eldritch invocations like the blade and even chain to a lesser degree? If not why? So you have something against warlocks have a caster pact that doesn't just steal its abilities from other classes?
Its not that I'm against more eldritch invocations of any kind, its that I don't think its necessary as a "fix." If you have an awesome idea, then go for it. Have fun. But if you're making an invocation for the sake of some kind of perceived power balance? That's not something I think is great.
I had not considered Shillelagh + booming blade (Or green flame blade) since xanthar's came out. My Tome warlock was created prior to xanthar's release so it wasn't really an option but I could see that as a viable melee option for tomes....
Hm? Booming blade/green flame blade are from Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, and haven't been reprinted in Xanthar's.
I've never had an issue with redundancy when taking Tome, either in terms of rituals or cantrips, nor issues with getting rituals (its one of the suggested Downtime activities, iirc, and you can discuss getting some rituals with your Patron too). In fact, in my experiences, its the best of the three options currently. For cantrips, I love getting my hands on Message, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, Control Flames, Light, Minor Image, Guidance, Thaumeturgy, sometimes I go the Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade route or a different secondary damage cantrip. There's a whole host of roleplaying potential as well as exploration benefits in all these. Dancing Lights, for instance, works extremely well if your warlock has even the slightest inclination towards stealth, subterfuge or scouting.
I don't think it really needs any improvement here.
Sounds like your having a very different experience with the Pact than I am. I imagine that it largely GM and party differences which is part of my point. I do wander if you think warlocks should not get any more tome prerequisite eldritch invocations like the blade and even chain to a lesser degree? If not why? So you have something against warlocks have a caster pact that doesn't just steal its abilities from other classes?
I had not considered Shillelagh + booming blade (Or green flame blade) since xanthar's came out. My Tome warlock was created prior to xanthar's release so it wasn't really an option but I could see that as a viable melee option for tomes.... if your built to actually engage in melee. I am not, low constitute and strength and only a little dexterity. I mostly stay at range using eldritch (repelling) blast to manipulate enemy positions and aid in damage in battle. I have occasionally had the opportunity to use shatter but my GM tend to one enemy fights so I mostly got to use that because I was fighting a "boss" on a horse and I keep damaging him while killing his horse to slow his movement. (He had other soldiers deliver him horses 3 times... we kept the last horse after we killed him, lol)
So don't get me wrong, I am Great Old One, Pact of the Tome, warlock ... scout. The role-play and scout functionality is great. My only concern is that not only am I tired of having spell slot and being restricted as a caster to eldritch blast spam but my group almost domains it because if I run out of spell slot and don't have hex then my damage drops greatly and they complain I am not holding my weight at the same time the complain because I am a "caster" and all I normally get to do is cast eldritch blast so my turns are boring for them and me. I have been playing with spells but since I only have the 2 slots there is not much I can do. I did take magic initiate Warlock selecting hex as my initiate first level spell so I have been casting 3 spells since level 4 and that has helped dramatically in letting me test to find something useful that isn't eldritch blast as a ranged caster.
Once again, you're not like other casters, the class isn't meant to be and frankly, it sounds like what they want you to be is a Sorcerer, so I guess that's on them? Maybe on you a lil? Adjust expectations because adjusting the class isn't really the best solution.
I had not considered Shillelagh + booming blade (Or green flame blade) since xanthar's came out. My Tome warlock was created prior to xanthar's release so it wasn't really an option but I could see that as a viable melee option for tomes...
Hm? Booming blade/green flame blade are from Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, and haven't been reprinted in Xanthar's.
I do believe they put the SCAG list into XGtE so as to help AL players who are taking XGtE as their +1 be able to pick the spells without worrying.
As far as ritual casting; having two casters with this isn't bad either, as you can each run different spells. If you are scroll poor as you point out, then sure the value is somewhat diminished. But I made a point of swapping out known spells at every level, and scribing that spell as a ritual only in the book.
Plus XGtE has optional rules for scribing spell scrolls. If the DM allows it and you have the time and money, literally any other spellcaster in the group can scribe a scroll with a ritual on it for you. That gets expensive pretty fast, but it's an easy way to pick up 1st and 2nd level rituals.
In my opinion the extra cantrips, the starter rituals and the ability to cast Warlock spells you know as rituals already justifies the pact. Adding extra rituals on top of that is just icing.
This.
The compaints that started this part of the conversation are also more about party makeup, and also a result of ignoring perfectly good cantrips for what seem(to me) like weird reasons.
The Tome warlock is one of the most fun characters I've played in 5e, out of a whole slew of characters.
You guys talk about cantrips being party makeup... but reality being... while you guys are putting on the DM or on the Party Makeup... in the end, by saying these you only look like warlock fanboys who thinks the warlock has no problems whatsoever. and in the end, i feel like you guys are trying to force your views into our mouth. My point being, there are numerous reasons why many people think the warlock is bad, or missing a ton compared to other classes. reality being, none of these reasons are bad to begin with, they are pinions based on each individuals and thus you cannot just say "you are wrong because of GM or party makeup" and i feel like thats just an easy excuse to say we are wrong because you like it.
while i like the tome warlock also, i also think its the least usefull pact. the same way i think the archfey patron and fiend patron aren't any good, but that doesn't mean its gonna suck for everyone. "I" think they are not good cause they are not my style. i'm sure you guys have tons of warlock problems as well, problems we'll be saying, they are not problems. but reality being... that doesn't they are not problems... it just means they are to certain style of play.
now, let me get this straight... Isn't D&D literally about the different people playing it ? there is no wrong or right and i think "we" the power gamers have told often that mechanically speaking the warlock is sub par to many other classes that just do better then the warlock as they go. and it is clear "You" the role players, that the warlock gives you lots of fun things to play with.
as this conversation has been running around in circles for quite some times... that has been quite clear by everyone who talked about it here. so i guess the answer we could all agree on would be this one...
- For Min Maxers, no it isn't bad until level 11 after which it becomes terribad. - For Role Players, no it isn't because you get lots of choices. but dont expect to do as much as other versatile classes.
based on these two statements, it is clear the class is nowhere near bad because the answer is still no to both of those. that's my 2 cents...
i'm a power gamer and i feel the warlock is a good class until about level 6. any classes can and should multiclass those 6 levels. but going beyond level 11, is just useless to me.
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I found your post a little hard to read and I wanted to disagree... But you actually have a fair point. I think part of it to me is I have a story GM (that has played a little too much Descent journey into darkness) so he harps on story plays to story then tries to kill us. Then I have a party with some max/min power gamer in it that are critical of my choices that duplicate because its "waste" and some party members that are story and critical because they don't want me to take or share their heroic moments. I am one of those that loves design as almost its own mini game so I want to make something interesting but at the same time I am not taking some "optimal" choices not to step on anyone toes, and then I am pushed to take specific actions with what I have left because if I don't the power gamer to criticize me for not holding my weight by failing tests or not doing my share of the damage because we all fear that our GM overlord will kill us all in a "cutscene" between story.
I can see how it is possible for the class to be fine for story or more Role play oriented groups but fail for power gaming groups.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
i'm a power gamer and i feel the warlock is a good class until about level 6. any classes can and should multiclass those 6 levels. but going beyond level 11, is just useless to me.
It's not bad for min/maxing, you just don't like having 2 spell slots at a time. Recommending that everyone multiclass past level 6 and lock themselves out of higher-level spells is baffling. Level 6+ spells are strong enough that the devs limit them to 1 per day (with the exception of level 19 and 20 spellcasters, who get a 2nd level 6 and 7 slot in lieu of higher level spell slots.) That's a bad min/max move. Anyone can cast lower-level spells. Higher level spells do things that lower level spells don't.
I have seen the pact of the time being rated as less impactful then blade or chain. This is just saying the pact ability on the abilities received from the initial selection. Taking the invocation granting Ritual spells, which is only available tonwarlocks taking the time pact, changes everything. Saying the pact without saying the invocation associated with the pact seems shortsighted!
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I could see this. It's not so much a note on the Warlock or Pact of the Tome as it is on party makeup. If you have exceptionally useful abilities, that are shared with a party member, and that ability doesn't improve in some way from that, its not great.
That said Pact if the Tome could stop at giving Guidance and Find Familiar and I'd see its use. Having multiple familiars in a party isn't stepping on anyone's toes and is a combat boon, not to mention a non-combat boon. Guidance is incredibly useful if you've got the concentration to spare. I essentially roll 1d4+1d20+x for everything when I can. You don't really get that when someone else in the party has guidance, cause they aren't constantly going to roll it to support others. They'll only share it in those clutch moments or when you fail and retry.
The rest of the Pact and Evocation are just flavor. They can be useful, sure, but they don't need to be. Take Shillelagh, for those moments you want to coup de grace like you mean it. Take Produce Flame cause carrying around bare, exposed flames as a light source is only infinitely cooler than lighting a torch. Take Thaumaturgy... Because its Thaumaturgy.
A note on Spare the Dying: the affect of this spell is mimicked by any character using a Healer's Kit. You can get 10 charges of Spare the Dying for 5 gp.
Healer's Kit. ...The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
Spare the Dying. (1 action) You touch a living creature that has 0 hit points. The creature becomes stable. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.
Extended Signature
Re: ClaytonCross; Yes there are other cantrips from Xanathars that are worth looking at. Is the breadth of cantrips useful, is certainly a party make up question and a character build one, and you outline very valid reasons why it might not make sense. In my case, Toll the Dead has a specific multitarget case because of my build. Works for me, but If I didn't do that, then casting Eldritch Blast at disadvantage may not be the worst scenario.
As far as ritual casting; having two casters with this isn't bad either, as you can each run different spells. If you are scroll poor as you point out, then sure the value is somewhat diminished. But I made a point of swapping out known spells at every level, and scribing that spell as a ritual only in the book.
Re: BDaddLy: on Spare the Dying very valid point on the healing kit (which somehow I missed. as I never use the kit). But one case I have used personally, is to have a familiar stand on the body, and use the familiar to deliver Spare the Dying as a touch. Again this is an oddball case (and we are all great on finding these), because a Healing Word would be better, and a Cleric with the Grave domain can do it as a ranged cast on their own.
People having trouble picking cantrips? Huh. I always end up craving getting more and more cantrips.
Plus XGtE has optional rules for scribing spell scrolls. If the DM allows it and you have the time and money, literally any other spellcaster in the group can scribe a scroll with a ritual on it for you. That gets expensive pretty fast, but it's an easy way to pick up 1st and 2nd level rituals.
In my opinion the extra cantrips, the starter rituals and the ability to cast Warlock spells you know as rituals already justifies the pact. Adding extra rituals on top of that is just icing.
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So I hear the last 4 posts, and what it comes down to for me is that TOME has more of an issue with party redundancy and GM play style (not handing at rituals scrolls, we are level 6 and have not seen one yet) that Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Blade don't have. No one minds another familiar (particularly an invisible one that can inflict poison status or has devils sight for another set of eyes to keep watch) or another good sword in the fight. The extra cantrips and rituals are more party dependent but on top of that I don't believe they do justify the pact on their own since they don't actually give the pact of the tome anything non-group/GM dependent to make them useful in any group and with pact magic slot they are substantially less vestal casters than other full caster class even with these. This is not saying that the tome can't work just that the design almost seems built as a minor caster in support of the pact of the blade (like an eldritch knight) and pact of the chain (like a Beast Master Ranger... that works better) the result is that you have this one caster type that adds some of the typical features of other casters but doesn't bring them on pare with other casters at least not with out some additional supporting eldritch invocations like the pact of the Blade has. So my thought is that its an ok start but it needs support TOME specific invocations to prop it up a bit more. That's what I see right now anyway. Toll the dead actually improves the class with a DC to hit alternative for in melee spell casting but it also reduces the need for shocking grasp or shillelagh which to me adds to my point of having some cantrip toys but not having very impactful cantrips after guidance that I can't already get from the warlock class. Don't get me wrong at level 3 those cantrip are great they just don't do much after as you get higher in levels where The pact of the blade and Pact of the Chain are still very good as level 20.
I was going to post some ideas of the invocations I am talking about that might flesh out and fix the Pact of the tome ... In my opinion. I don't want to hijack the thread so I put it here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/16827-on-second-thought-warlocks-class-vs-warlock-pacts
If you are willing to consider the possibility of a more sustainable Pact of the Tome through supporting Eldritch invocations maybe give it a look and you could come up with something better or fix my ideas.
Over the course of this thread I have realized that its not warlocks but Pact of the Tome Warlocks that I see as suffering from:
party configuration conflict
lack of abilities that hold up at higher level
lack of supporting eldritch invocations
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
It's true that Blade Pact has a lot of invocations that support it, but I find most people consider these a tax rather than an expansion of the playstyle. Adding more specific Invocations for both Tome and Chain is not necessarily the answer, when overall it might just be better if we had more Invocations all together
I've never had an issue with redundancy when taking Tome, either in terms of rituals or cantrips, nor issues with getting rituals (its one of the suggested Downtime activities, iirc, and you can discuss getting some rituals with your Patron too). In fact, in my experiences, its the best of the three options currently. For cantrips, I love getting my hands on Message, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Mage Hand, Control Flames, Light, Minor Image, Guidance, Thaumeturgy, sometimes I go the Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade route or a different secondary damage cantrip. There's a whole host of roleplaying potential as well as exploration benefits in all these. Dancing Lights, for instance, works extremely well if your warlock has even the slightest inclination towards stealth, subterfuge or scouting.
I don't think it really needs any improvement here.
Tax is an in built part of balance so I'm not against them existing. Yes, you "have" to take them if you're optimizing, but that's what you get to stop you from being a killer at every range with access to all the benefits of Hexblade/Blade Pact and no downsides etc etc
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
You guys talk about cantrips being party makeup... but reality being... while you guys are putting on the DM or on the Party Makeup... in the end, by saying these you only look like warlock fanboys who thinks the warlock has no problems whatsoever. and in the end, i feel like you guys are trying to force your views into our mouth. My point being, there are numerous reasons why many people think the warlock is bad, or missing a ton compared to other classes. reality being, none of these reasons are bad to begin with, they are pinions based on each individuals and thus you cannot just say "you are wrong because of GM or party makeup" and i feel like thats just an easy excuse to say we are wrong because you like it.
while i like the tome warlock also, i also think its the least usefull pact.
the same way i think the archfey patron and fiend patron aren't any good, but that doesn't mean its gonna suck for everyone. "I" think they are not good cause they are not my style.
i'm sure you guys have tons of warlock problems as well, problems we'll be saying, they are not problems. but reality being... that doesn't they are not problems... it just means they are to certain style of play.
now, let me get this straight...
Isn't D&D literally about the different people playing it ?
there is no wrong or right and i think "we" the power gamers have told often that mechanically speaking the warlock is sub par to many other classes that just do better then the warlock as they go. and it is clear "You" the role players, that the warlock gives you lots of fun things to play with.
as this conversation has been running around in circles for quite some times... that has been quite clear by everyone who talked about it here.
so i guess the answer we could all agree on would be this one...
- For Min Maxers, no it isn't bad until level 11 after which it becomes terribad.
- For Role Players, no it isn't because you get lots of choices. but dont expect to do as much as other versatile classes.
based on these two statements, it is clear the class is nowhere near bad because the answer is still no to both of those.
that's my 2 cents...
i'm a power gamer and i feel the warlock is a good class until about level 6. any classes can and should multiclass those 6 levels. but going beyond level 11, is just useless to me.
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I found your post a little hard to read and I wanted to disagree... But you actually have a fair point. I think part of it to me is I have a story GM (that has played a little too much Descent journey into darkness) so he harps on story plays to story then tries to kill us. Then I have a party with some max/min power gamer in it that are critical of my choices that duplicate because its "waste" and some party members that are story and critical because they don't want me to take or share their heroic moments. I am one of those that loves design as almost its own mini game so I want to make something interesting but at the same time I am not taking some "optimal" choices not to step on anyone toes, and then I am pushed to take specific actions with what I have left because if I don't the power gamer to criticize me for not holding my weight by failing tests or not doing my share of the damage because we all fear that our GM overlord will kill us all in a "cutscene" between story.
I can see how it is possible for the class to be fine for story or more Role play oriented groups but fail for power gaming groups.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
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