Quote from DnDPaladin>>now, let me get this straight...
Isn't D&D literally about the different people playing it ? there is no wrong or right and i think "we" the power gamers have told often that mechanically speaking the warlock is sub par to many other classes that just do better then the warlock as they go. and it is clear "You" the role players, that the warlock gives you lots of fun things to play with.
I can see your point here. I am not a fan of multi-classing or power gaming so my answer to the original questions is: Hello no! The Warlock is not bad at all. It is a great classs to straight role play. Powerfull spell casters with great backstories that are beholden to Dark Patrons with questionable motives. . .what's not to like?
As for optimizing, I guess there is always a way to multi-class your way into a more powerful character sheet...although a Warlock with only 2 spell slots can hold his/her own when it comes to DPR. As a "Warlock fanboy" I would never give up my pursuit of Eldritch Mastery and forgo Mystic Arcanum.
Sorry I couldn't read all of this, there was too much, I read most. I'll answer just the OP's title question, "Is Warlock Bad". The answer is emphatically NO.
1) Warlock has the highest at will ranged damage in the game which does not rely on physical projectiles.
2) Warlock has a no save at will push / pull effect, if they want it, which is absurdly powerful.
3) Warlock is one of the best multiclass options in the game, as it's absurdly frontloaded, and is one of 4(!) classes at least partially keyed off of Charisma, which is the most of anything other than Wisdom, which is more commonly paired with another stat (Dex).
Certainly, it has its issues, including being overly frontloaded and having certain options being mechanically Vastly superior to others (Tome pact with book of secrets, Hexblade Patron, Agonizing Blast Invocation, etc) but as others have said playing an "optimal" character isn't required in this game, and DMs can always step in if different players in their campaign end up at too differing of ends of the power spectrum.
@InquisitiveCoder again you just play devils advocate in order to troll... because while you say its bad to me to have only 2 spell slots... the reality is, you are entirely right and this is exactly what i have been saying... spells are strong enough that you actually need more then 2. can you imagine the same wizard playing with onbly 2 spells slots at level 20 ? now compare that to the warlock... thats exactly what warlock does... the only exception is that "ALL" classes have much more spell slots then warlocks. the min/max builds we've seen on the net often and that most people go for... actually maximise the warlock 2 spell slots and complement them with low level spell slots that are needed for lower spells. while you think maximising those high level spell slots is warranted... the reality is that once you get those level 6-7 spell level, you dont really need more then that.
a warlock with only eldritch blast and 7 level of warlock for the invocations, can literally hit a monster for like 80+hp per rounds. that's as much as Disintegrate, and that is with only cantrips and invocations. your mage in order to do that needs literally a 6 level spell slot and thus cannot do that until level 11. The warlock is loaded with desires to deal as much damage as the others at low levels to compensate a lack of damage at higher level. all that said... only those who didn't really abuse low level spells, cannot understand their powers... sorry but high level spells aren't anything compared to low level spells in terms of powers... counterspell for exemple, you literally keep your high level spell just for it. otherwise you get wrecked by any bosses who can meteor swarm your group. same with desintegrate and finger of death. while they are totally worth your while... you are just betterly served by counterspell which actually make sure they fire off. counterspell is a 3rd level spell. fireball is also a much better spell then even higher level spells of the same sort. Dispel magic serve the same purpose as counter spell and can actually save the ass of nany of your comrades... shield of faith, bless and pretty much all buffs from 1 to 5 are much better spent then the ones at higher levels.
and if you don't believe me, then you really have to look at the final of critical role first campaign. the players literally were getting killed off by enemies until scanlan the bard took counter spell, which he literally in the final fight, only used for counterspells. you can tell me, its a players choice all you want... i'd also tell you that the monsters choice of wrecking your sapell casters is also a players choice. and you not preparing for that wreckage is your own choice. perhaps you are used to having your DM save your ass, but i am not like that with my players. its not up to me to solve problems, its up to my players... that is something warlocks have trouble doing.
but hey, i said what i had to say and again i could repeat myself. but i won't...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
OK DND paladin I don’t think we are going to convince you that a warlock above level six or seven isn’t bad. That’s OK there’s no wrong way to play a character. Essentially you are saying that the warlock can dish out a ton of damage but is at risk from other spell casters because of the limited the number of spell slots. Seems like there may be other creative ways to address this short coming...but I hear you.
So my character just happens to be seventh level...In your opinion What is my best course of action at this point? Multi class into sorcerer for more spell slots? I don’t want to spend my ASI on intelligence for wizard multi classing. What else does that leave Paladin?
You can also be a Bard, but frankly, I'd just stick with Warlock to 8 for the ASI and then go and multi if you care about that kind of thing. DnDPaladin advocates every class to multi so don't take it to heart.
@InquisitiveCoder again you just play devils advocate in order to troll... because while you say its bad to me to have only 2 spell slots... the reality is, you are entirely right and this is exactly what i have been saying... spells are strong enough that you actually need more then 2. can you imagine the same wizard playing with onbly 2 spells slots at level 20 ? now compare that to the warlock... thats exactly what warlock does... the only exception is that "ALL" classes have much more spell slots then warlocks. the min/max builds we've seen on the net often and that most people go for... actually maximise the warlock 2 spell slots and complement them with low level spell slots that are needed for lower spells. while you think maximising those high level spell slots is warranted... the reality is that once you get those level 6-7 spell level, you dont really need more then that.
What are you talking about? Warlock at 20 has 4, + 4 (Eldritch Master) +4 per short rest, which is normally 2 per long rest, in a standard campaign. And, I mean, you can say short rests aren't guaranteed, but they're pretty guaranteed starting from the moment someone knows Rope Trick. So that's 16 5th level spells, +1 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level, for 20 total spell slots per day.
A Wizard has the same 8th and 9th level (1 per day), 1 more 6th and 7th level (2 per day) and 16 total 5th level or lower slots. However that's only 3 5th level spells, and if they use Arcane Recovery on 5th levels, 2 more, so 5 total. All told they have 4 total spell slots more than a Warlock, but if you value spell slots by level, the Wizard would have 89 levels of spell slots, to the Warlock's 110. By then both as well have a couple of at-will 1st or 2nd level spell effects.
They're actually very comparable, so I Really don't know what you're on about with this "2 slots at level 20" nonsense.
Don't get too upset if he calls you a troll either.
Frankly, it's true that the most powerful character builds are found through multi-classing.
Possibly- but a level 20 Barbarian might rage punch you in the face for saying that! Wait- is that a level 20 Circle of the Moon chewing on your leg with unlimited hit points? Blanket statements are hard to prove! So let me make one of my own without having proof to back it up :) It is easier to screw up a multi-class build than to hit a home run!
For spellcasters, you generally only want to multiclass once you get to the highest levels of the game - slowing down access to higher level spells is a huge huge detriment. Like, level 18. And the overwhelming majority of games never make it that high. The only exception I know of is the sorlock. But nine times out of ten, you're going to be leveling as a pure spellcaster for the overwhelming majority of your games if you want to have "the most powerful builds." For Fighters, I know lots of people that have gone to level 14 or so so they can get the most out of Battlemaster, at which point the game ended.
Always remember, whenever you're talking about power game builds, you need to actually have appropriate levels for the challenges you face across those levels. Very few games start off the bat at level 16+, but rather run from 1 to 11 or so.
i'm a power gamer and i feel the warlock is a good class until about level 6. any classes can and should multiclass those 6 levels. but going beyond level 11, is just useless to me.
It's not bad for min/maxing, you just don't like having 2 spell slots at a time. Recommending that everyone multiclass past level 6 and lock themselves out of higher-level spells is baffling. Level 6+ spells are strong enough that the devs limit them to 1 per day (with the exception of level 19 and 20 spellcasters, who get a 2nd level 6 and 7 slot in lieu of higher level spell slots.) That's a bad min/max move. Anyone can cast lower-level spells. Higher level spells do things that lower level spells don't.
Also, you don't actually wait that long for that 3rd slot, or for the extra 1/day Arcanum spells. I mean, he talked about counterspell, but the warlock is the last person who should be using it. Learn it, sure, for when no one else with it has a reaction left and you're pretty sure the BBEG is going to kill you all with the next spell, but most of the time there are much better uses of the warlock's slots. Also, you can definitely go through the game all the way to 20 without counterspell in the party at all.
But if there is a wizard in the party, throwing out lots of quick fix spells is what they thrive on, so let them do that.
I think paladin just doesn't like the gameplay of the warlock. I mean, he also thinks that Fey and Fiend are bad patrons? I'm pretty sure he just isn't good at powergaming.
OK DND paladin I don’t think we are going to convince you that a warlock above level six or seven isn’t bad. That’s OK there’s no wrong way to play a character. Essentially you are saying that the warlock can dish out a ton of damage but is at risk from other spell casters because of the limited the number of spell slots. Seems like there may be other creative ways to address this short coming...but I hear you.
So my character just happens to be seventh level...In your opinion What is my best course of action at this point? Multi class into sorcerer for more spell slots? I don’t want to spend my ASI on intelligence for wizard multi classing. What else does that leave Paladin?
I always look to either Bard or Paladin if I MC a Warlock, unless Warlock is the less important part of the character, in which case I enjoy a good Rogue/Warlock. I also made a Warlock/Monk, but that was an oddball character, not an optimized one.
But really, Warlock is really good all the way to level 20. I'd just ignore anyone telling you different, outside of examining their specific complaints with the class to know what to look out for as weaknesses.Even then, those weaknesses are being wildly exaggerated in this thread.
@InquisitiveCoder again you just play devils advocate in order to troll... because while you say its bad to me to have only 2 spell slots... the reality is, you are entirely right and this is exactly what i have been saying... spells are strong enough that you actually need more then 2. can you imagine the same wizard playing with onbly 2 spells slots at level 20 ? now compare that to the warlock... thats exactly what warlock does... the only exception is that "ALL" classes have much more spell slots then warlocks. the min/max builds we've seen on the net often and that most people go for... actually maximise the warlock 2 spell slots and complement them with low level spell slots that are needed for lower spells. while you think maximising those high level spell slots is warranted... the reality is that once you get those level 6-7 spell level, you dont really need more then that.
What are you talking about? Warlock at 20 has 4, + 4 (Eldritch Master) +4 per short rest, which is normally 2 per long rest, in a standard campaign. And, I mean, you can say short rests aren't guaranteed, but they're pretty guaranteed starting from the moment someone knows Rope Trick. So that's 16 5th level spells, +1 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level, for 20 total spell slots per day.
A Wizard has the same 8th and 9th level (1 per day), 1 more 6th and 7th level (2 per day) and 16 total 5th level or lower slots. However that's only 3 5th level spells, and if they use Arcane Recovery on 5th levels, 2 more, so 5 total. All told they have 4 total spell slots more than a Warlock, but if you value spell slots by level, the Wizard would have 89 levels of spell slots, to the Warlock's 110. By then both as well have a couple of at-will 1st or 2nd level spell effects.
They're actually very comparable, so I Really don't know what you're on about with this "2 slots at level 20" nonsense.
I think he just hasn't even played a warlock high enough to get more slots, so it just doesn't occur to him to look at things from the angle of having more than 2 slots.
For spellcasters, you generally only want to multiclass once you get to the highest levels of the game - slowing down access to higher level spells is a huge huge detriment. Like, level 18. And the overwhelming majority of games never make it that high. The only exception I know of is the sorlock. But nine times out of ten, you're going to be leveling as a pure spellcaster for the overwhelming majority of your games if you want to have "the most powerful builds." For Fighters, I know lots of people that have gone to level 14 or so so they can get the most out of Battlemaster, at which point the game ended.
Always remember, whenever you're talking about power game builds, you need to actually have appropriate levels for the challenges you face across those levels. Very few games start off the bat at level 16+, but rather run from 1 to 11 or so.
Yep. Actual powergaming takes into account the low and medium levels, not just the "check out this sweet build" level. Theory crafting is fun, but in a real game you need a character that works from level 1 on.
I actually agree with the idea that Sorlock helps you smooth out the spells you can cast over encounters and love the idea of Sorcery Points and their ability to eat your remaining spell slots on short rests for gains with Warlock but I don't agree that it's a necessary or even preferable idea over just being a pure Lock.
The sorlock is supposed to be a better blasty sorcerer, not a better warlock. A two level dip does not make you a good member of a class, but can enhance your main class beautifully.
Power gaming is not about leveling... Its about power. Being ahead of the curves... Being very strong on either one side or some sides.
Exemple...
Warlock 2, sorcerer 3, fighter 2
Is only 7 levels and already gives you more attacks on a boss then even a monk.
Look at damage done too...
Eldritch blast (1d10+cha(5)) x6=max 90 damage. Average 63 in one single round at level 7. Thats a hell of a lot of damage. Now add goblin... Add other stuff that you can pump... You do more then desintegrate which is pretty hefty spell.
Power gaming do not care about other things then being pretty darn good at that thing you wanna do. What you guys are saying is not that power gaming sucks... It is that voluntarily you preffer sub optimal builds.
Sorry but a full on class is also entirely dependant on the gear it will have at the end. Exemple again of grog in critical role. Why would he go to level 20 when his capstone sucks more then the gears he has on himself ? You just dont force yourself into playing a class to 20 if you feel the abilities you get arent worth it.
To me the only class worth going to 20 are druid, barbarian and fighter. The rest arent worth going more then level 14.
Ill say this much though... Its true, compared to 3.5e that classes have much better abilities.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Power gaming is not about leveling... Its about power. Being ahead of the curves... Being very strong on either one side or some sides.
..... Everything in D&D is related to leveling, including the power curve. You can't discuss power gaming without leveling.
Exemple...
Warlock 2, sorcerer 3, fighter 2
Is only 7 levels and already gives you more attacks on a boss then even a monk.
And you'll do less damage with said attacks than a quickened fireball + firebolt from a level 7 fire dragon Sorcerer (47 avg. dmg vs. 45), have less Charisma / feats, usable once per day versus three time a day unless you burn all your spell slots into sorcery points (losing access to things like Shield), and even then you're limited to one action surge per rest. Heaven forbid there be more than one enemy in the boss fight, putting the fireball leagues ahead of eldritch blast in terms of damage.
Not the best example if you want to talk about being ahead of a power curve since you'll be slightly BEHIND the curve with this build.
Eldritch blast (1d10+cha(5)) x6=max 90 damage. Average 63 in one single round at level 7.
You're not going to be having max charisma at level 7, not without any ASI. Assuming you roll an 18 is kind of silly for any kind of theorycrafting. As well, we haven't even touched on the idea of actually MISSING with these attacks. Fireball, on a save, still does half damage.
Sorry but a full on class is also entirely dependant on the gear it will have at the end.
Not really. Magic items generally don't replace class features. You'll have both items and class features that will work together, irregardless if you multi-class or not.
To me the only class worth going to 20
To you, sure. And more power to you if you feel that way. But I've found the majority of power gamers believe the idea of not getting 9th tier spells on a level 20 dedicated caster character to be pretty much the height of folly.
@InquisitiveCoder again you just play devils advocate in order to troll... because while you say its bad to me to have only 2 spell slots... the reality is, you are entirely right and this is exactly what i have been saying... spells are strong enough that you actually need more then 2. can you imagine the same wizard playing with onbly 2 spells slots at level 20 ? now compare that to the warlock... thats exactly what warlock does... the only exception is that "ALL" classes have much more spell slots then warlocks. the min/max builds we've seen on the net often and that most people go for... actually maximise the warlock 2 spell slots and complement them with low level spell slots that are needed for lower spells. while you think maximising those high level spell slots is warranted... the reality is that once you get those level 6-7 spell level, you dont really need more then that.
What are you talking about? Warlock at 20 has 4, + 4 (Eldritch Master) +4 per short rest, which is normally 2 per long rest, in a standard campaign. And, I mean, you can say short rests aren't guaranteed, but they're pretty guaranteed starting from the moment someone knows Rope Trick. So that's 16 5th level spells, +1 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level, for 20 total spell slots per day.
A Wizard has the same 8th and 9th level (1 per day), 1 more 6th and 7th level (2 per day) and 16 total 5th level or lower slots. However that's only 3 5th level spells, and if they use Arcane Recovery on 5th levels, 2 more, so 5 total. All told they have 4 total spell slots more than a Warlock, but if you value spell slots by level, the Wizard would have 89 levels of spell slots, to the Warlock's 110. By then both as well have a couple of at-will 1st or 2nd level spell effects.
They're actually very comparable, so I Really don't know what you're on about with this "2 slots at level 20" nonsense.
A good break down but you forgot spell efficiency, casting at levels higher than 5, and Wizard spell selection flexibility so while your are not wrong it and it is well written it all so is a misleading half truth. You are in no way wrong that is not what I am saying. However if a wizard casts a first level spell the wizard can use a first level spell slot but the warlock has to cast a 5th at level 9 or higher so they waste 4 levels. A good example of this is protection from good and evil which is hands down the best save spell against undead and demons but most notably vs Ghosts possession and Vampire charm which can wreck a group (If you have a cleric and turn undead that does change things but its not a spell ether). Lets consider charm which is perhaps the best subterfuge infiltration spells and that being a strong niche for warlocks a reasonable exception for them to cast in or out of combat. What about Hex which seems like it was literally created for Warlocks, sure it scales with spell slot level or more time... which is almost entirely pointless because they made almost every spell a warlock would ever want to cast concentration so unless the warlock hamstrings or simply doesn't cast spell slots that duration will almost never matter so they are again basically using 5th level spell slot for a 1st level spell with not gain. If they choose not to cast to prevent from losing hex or to hold protection from good and evil then the level 5 spell slot they didn't cast is also waste. Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and Sorcerers all have lower level spell slots that they can cast without hesitation of fear of waste and still cast higher level spell slots.
Your also relying on being level 20 at the end of campaign (for me and a lot of people, granted some people do level 20 campaigns). The argument is against the tome design particularly is that after level 9 they fail to compare. So why not look at level 10 when your "normal" 2 short rest per long rest without Eldritch Master means they are getting 6 spells a day to the other Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and Sorcerers 15!!! So you want to say it levels out when my game is done but what about when I am actually playing the longest levels of the game? Sure you counter with with at level 11 you get 3, but you don't get anymore until level 16.
Warlock (with mystic arcanum, which are very limited compared to actual higher spell slots and higher spell choices) ---At level 10 with 2 rests: cast 6 spells with 30 spell levels ---At level 11 with 2 rests: cast 10 spells with 51 spell levels ---At level 16 with 2 rests: cast 13 spells with 66 spell levels ---At level 19 with 2 rests: cast 16 spells with 90 spell levels Now lets also consider that while warlocks might get 2 short rests to recharge the might only have 1 or two battles in that day (I have never had more than 2)... Which means that while you might get those resets and those spells as a result you will likely not use them or will use them for out of combat story purposes (which is not bad its half the game but its impossible to measure usefulness, I will come back to this) The result is your really only looking at 1 effective rest in most days other then fun toys. ---At level 10 with 1 rest: cast 4 spells with 20 spell levels ---At level 11 with 1 rest: cast 7 spells with 36 spell levels ---At level 16 with 1 rest: cast 10 spells with 51 spell levels ---At level 19 with 1 rest: cast 16 spells with 75 spell levels Due to in-efficient casting and having to hold 1 of 3 spell for emergency casting Warlocks can easily effectively lose 3 or 4 spell slot levels to waste.I will call this effectively a 1/3 lose their actual used spell levels because it could be 1/2/3/4/5 of 5 or 15/25 about 2/3. (some player control here but I unless your making an active attempt to prevent this its a reasonable number BUT the real point is other casters generally don't have to because they cast a second level spell ... they use a second level spell slot) ---At level 10 with 1 rest: cast 4 spells with effective 14 spell levels ---At level 11 with 1 rest: cast 7 spells with effective 24 spell levels ---At level 16 with 1 rest: cast 10 spells with effective 34 spell levels ---At level 19 with 1 rest: cast 16 spells with effective 50 spell levels
Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and Sorcerers ---At level 10: cast 16 spells with 41 spell levels ---At level 11: cast 16 spells with 47 spell levels ---At level 16: cast 18 spells with 62 spell levels ---At level 19: cast 20 spells with 82 spell levels They are likely to also hold a few spells for emergencies I am going to call it 3 + 1 of their highest level slot. (would guess a level 1 shield/protection from good and evil, a level 2 misty step, and the highest as a catch all would be the most common but it would depend emergency spell select which could be more efficient than this.) ---At level 10: cast 16 spells with 33 spell levels ---At level 11: cast 16 spells with 38 spell levels ---At level 16: cast 18 spells with 51 spell levels ---At level 19: cast 20 spells with 70 spell levels
So the results for comparison of effective spell slots lvl 10: Warlock 14 < other full casters 33 lvl 11: Warlock 24 < other full casters 38 lvl 16: Warlock 34 < other full casters 51 lvl 19: Warlock 50 < other full casters 70
So warlocks loose out significantly in combat and more so if their is only 1 combat encounter in a day.... Now I said I would go back to Role play. Role play is a completely different situation. In an all role play day in game, I generally get plenty of rests but hold my spells when ever I think there might be combat. This may mean warlocks are the most flexible non-combat spell caster class if you don't really on saving spells for combat because your GM always gives you warning as a practice (instead of random attacks that make you paranoid) and your group stops for multiple rest they don't need between social encounters as part of a story element. My group usually has breakfast coming off a long rest and dinner before going on to a long rest and I have to request stops that I may or may not get.
This is all to say... you may not be "wrong" but the numbers also don't prove you right. I really feel, that more then most classes Warlocks (primarily Pact of the Tome) are dependent on the GM play style and group to be effective. Pact of the Blade can always swing a sword. Pact of the chain is very versatile in story, scouting, and freedom to be an "eldritch archer" with a pet. Pact of the tome is billed as a flexible caster that holds up to other full casters. They simply fail to actually hold up IN COMBAT from my experience (wizards casting 7 fire balls and/or lighting bolts at level 9 is going to far surpass eldritch/agonizing blast spam in damage due to always hitting for at least half and being able to hit more than one persons, and they just get more powerful options as they go) but might exceed them out of combat with the right GM and Group. If your a Story based player with a story based GM and a story based group you are likely fine and quite happy with a Pact of the tome warlock. If you played pact of the tome warlock hoping to play full caster with all its flexibility and hold your own in combat while they are dropping 15 spells with great efficiency by picking spell they want to cast and casting it at its level or looking at what spell slots they have and picking the best spell they have at that level... its not likely to work out for you as Pact of the Tome warlock. Based on spell slot power you will end up being a little better than half as powerful. That does not account for Full caster that doesn't play their character well and you being more creative and able to recognize the spells that work best for their level and/or the most effective implementation of them. It might be that at half their "power" your twice as effective as wizard because the wizard player has no tactical since. (We have 2 players out of 8 in my group that still haven't really "gotten" how best to use their characters in combat because the do things that are not effective.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Only if you're boring, I'm here for like 8 levels of Sorc to 12 Lock. I'd go to the Sorcerer subforum if I planned to be a Sorc main class
*shrugs* Well, we are talking about power gaming here; going 8/12 isn't "optimal" for a discussion of power gaming. If you have more fun with a different, non-min-maxed build, that's awesome and I hope you have a blast with the character; power gaming is overrated unless your entire table is doing it, at which point its a requirement.
Only if you're boring, I'm here for like 8 levels of Sorc to 12 Lock. I'd go to the Sorcerer subforum if I planned to be a Sorc main class
*shrugs* Well, we are talking about power gaming here; going 8/12 isn't "optimal" for a discussion of power gaming. If you have more fun with a different, non-min-maxed build, that's awesome and I hope you have a blast with the character; power gaming is overrated unless your entire table is doing it, at which point its a requirement.
Just saying... When you guys quote only half a sentence and make a point... Its hard to take it seriously...
Gear not equalling class features...
Grog in critical role got gauntlets that gave him 26 str ! Hows that for not wrecking barbarian capstone ? Storm giant gauntlets... Hows that for not wrecking capstone ? The tough feat while having 20 con... Hows that for not wrecking barb capstone...
Gears literally changes characters builds.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Very simple. First of all, the barbarian level 20 feature grants +4 Con as well as strength. So that's a thing not being "wrecked." Secondly, its not assured you will always have the magic items on you and equipped when things happen. Grog could very well encounter rust monster that destroys the item. Third, he could choose to get rid of the guantlets at level 20 (dropping from 26 strength to 24, assuming he doesn't find a tome of manual strength, or whatever its called) but opening up an attunement slot for something that will work even better for him at this stage in the game than the gauntlets.
I'm sure there's a ton of other reasons. Gear doesn't change character builds - a player might choose to take a different path, but its not a change unless a player wants to try new things.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I can see your point here. I am not a fan of multi-classing or power gaming so my answer to the original questions is: Hello no! The Warlock is not bad at all. It is a great classs to straight role play. Powerfull spell casters with great backstories that are beholden to Dark Patrons with questionable motives. . .what's not to like?
As for optimizing, I guess there is always a way to multi-class your way into a more powerful character sheet...although a Warlock with only 2 spell slots can hold his/her own when it comes to DPR. As a "Warlock fanboy" I would never give up my pursuit of Eldritch Mastery and forgo Mystic Arcanum.
Sorry I couldn't read all of this, there was too much, I read most. I'll answer just the OP's title question, "Is Warlock Bad". The answer is emphatically NO.
1) Warlock has the highest at will ranged damage in the game which does not rely on physical projectiles.
2) Warlock has a no save at will push / pull effect, if they want it, which is absurdly powerful.
3) Warlock is one of the best multiclass options in the game, as it's absurdly frontloaded, and is one of 4(!) classes at least partially keyed off of Charisma, which is the most of anything other than Wisdom, which is more commonly paired with another stat (Dex).
Certainly, it has its issues, including being overly frontloaded and having certain options being mechanically Vastly superior to others (Tome pact with book of secrets, Hexblade Patron, Agonizing Blast Invocation, etc) but as others have said playing an "optimal" character isn't required in this game, and DMs can always step in if different players in their campaign end up at too differing of ends of the power spectrum.
@InquisitiveCoder again you just play devils advocate in order to troll...
because while you say its bad to me to have only 2 spell slots... the reality is, you are entirely right and this is exactly what i have been saying... spells are strong enough that you actually need more then 2. can you imagine the same wizard playing with onbly 2 spells slots at level 20 ? now compare that to the warlock... thats exactly what warlock does... the only exception is that "ALL" classes have much more spell slots then warlocks. the min/max builds we've seen on the net often and that most people go for... actually maximise the warlock 2 spell slots and complement them with low level spell slots that are needed for lower spells. while you think maximising those high level spell slots is warranted... the reality is that once you get those level 6-7 spell level, you dont really need more then that.
a warlock with only eldritch blast and 7 level of warlock for the invocations, can literally hit a monster for like 80+hp per rounds.
that's as much as Disintegrate, and that is with only cantrips and invocations. your mage in order to do that needs literally a 6 level spell slot and thus cannot do that until level 11.
The warlock is loaded with desires to deal as much damage as the others at low levels to compensate a lack of damage at higher level. all that said... only those who didn't really abuse low level spells, cannot understand their powers... sorry but high level spells aren't anything compared to low level spells in terms of powers... counterspell for exemple, you literally keep your high level spell just for it. otherwise you get wrecked by any bosses who can meteor swarm your group. same with desintegrate and finger of death. while they are totally worth your while... you are just betterly served by counterspell which actually make sure they fire off. counterspell is a 3rd level spell. fireball is also a much better spell then even higher level spells of the same sort. Dispel magic serve the same purpose as counter spell and can actually save the ass of nany of your comrades... shield of faith, bless and pretty much all buffs from 1 to 5 are much better spent then the ones at higher levels.
and if you don't believe me, then you really have to look at the final of critical role first campaign.
the players literally were getting killed off by enemies until scanlan the bard took counter spell, which he literally in the final fight, only used for counterspells.
you can tell me, its a players choice all you want... i'd also tell you that the monsters choice of wrecking your sapell casters is also a players choice. and you not preparing for that wreckage is your own choice. perhaps you are used to having your DM save your ass, but i am not like that with my players. its not up to me to solve problems, its up to my players... that is something warlocks have trouble doing.
but hey, i said what i had to say and again i could repeat myself. but i won't...
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
OK DND paladin I don’t think we are going to convince you that a warlock above level six or seven isn’t bad. That’s OK there’s no wrong way to play a character. Essentially you are saying that the warlock can dish out a ton of damage but is at risk from other spell casters because of the limited the number of spell slots. Seems like there may be other creative ways to address this short coming...but I hear you.
So my character just happens to be seventh level...In your opinion What is my best course of action at this point? Multi class into sorcerer for more spell slots? I don’t want to spend my ASI on intelligence for wizard multi classing. What else does that leave Paladin?
You can also be a Bard, but frankly, I'd just stick with Warlock to 8 for the ASI and then go and multi if you care about that kind of thing. DnDPaladin advocates every class to multi so don't take it to heart.
Extended Signature
For spellcasters, you generally only want to multiclass once you get to the highest levels of the game - slowing down access to higher level spells is a huge huge detriment. Like, level 18. And the overwhelming majority of games never make it that high. The only exception I know of is the sorlock. But nine times out of ten, you're going to be leveling as a pure spellcaster for the overwhelming majority of your games if you want to have "the most powerful builds." For Fighters, I know lots of people that have gone to level 14 or so so they can get the most out of Battlemaster, at which point the game ended.
Always remember, whenever you're talking about power game builds, you need to actually have appropriate levels for the challenges you face across those levels. Very few games start off the bat at level 16+, but rather run from 1 to 11 or so.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I actually agree with the idea that Sorlock helps you smooth out the spells you can cast over encounters and love the idea of Sorcery Points and their ability to eat your remaining spell slots on short rests for gains with Warlock but I don't agree that it's a necessary or even preferable idea over just being a pure Lock.
The sorlock is supposed to be a better blasty sorcerer, not a better warlock. A two level dip does not make you a good member of a class, but can enhance your main class beautifully.
Power gaming is not about leveling... Its about power. Being ahead of the curves... Being very strong on either one side or some sides.
Exemple...
Warlock 2, sorcerer 3, fighter 2
Is only 7 levels and already gives you more attacks on a boss then even a monk.
Look at damage done too...
Eldritch blast (1d10+cha(5)) x6=max 90 damage. Average 63 in one single round at level 7. Thats a hell of a lot of damage. Now add goblin... Add other stuff that you can pump... You do more then desintegrate which is pretty hefty spell.
Power gaming do not care about other things then being pretty darn good at that thing you wanna do. What you guys are saying is not that power gaming sucks... It is that voluntarily you preffer sub optimal builds.
Sorry but a full on class is also entirely dependant on the gear it will have at the end. Exemple again of grog in critical role. Why would he go to level 20 when his capstone sucks more then the gears he has on himself ? You just dont force yourself into playing a class to 20 if you feel the abilities you get arent worth it.
To me the only class worth going to 20 are druid, barbarian and fighter. The rest arent worth going more then level 14.
Ill say this much though... Its true, compared to 3.5e that classes have much better abilities.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
And you'll do less damage with said attacks than a quickened fireball + firebolt from a level 7 fire dragon Sorcerer (47 avg. dmg vs. 45), have less Charisma / feats, usable once per day versus three time a day unless you burn all your spell slots into sorcery points (losing access to things like Shield), and even then you're limited to one action surge per rest. Heaven forbid there be more than one enemy in the boss fight, putting the fireball leagues ahead of eldritch blast in terms of damage.
Not the best example if you want to talk about being ahead of a power curve since you'll be slightly BEHIND the curve with this build.
You're not going to be having max charisma at level 7, not without any ASI. Assuming you roll an 18 is kind of silly for any kind of theorycrafting. As well, we haven't even touched on the idea of actually MISSING with these attacks. Fireball, on a save, still does half damage.
Not really. Magic items generally don't replace class features. You'll have both items and class features that will work together, irregardless if you multi-class or not.
To you, sure. And more power to you if you feel that way. But I've found the majority of power gamers believe the idea of not getting 9th tier spells on a level 20 dedicated caster character to be pretty much the height of folly.
Only if you're boring, I'm here for like 8 levels of Sorc to 12 Lock. I'd go to the Sorcerer subforum if I planned to be a Sorc main class
Warlock (with mystic arcanum, which are very limited compared to actual higher spell slots and higher spell choices)
---At level 10 with 2 rests: cast 6 spells with 30 spell levels
---At level 11 with 2 rests: cast 10 spells with 51 spell levels
---At level 16 with 2 rests: cast 13 spells with 66 spell levels
---At level 19 with 2 rests: cast 16 spells with 90 spell levels
Now lets also consider that while warlocks might get 2 short rests to recharge the might only have 1 or two battles in that day (I have never had more than 2)...
Which means that while you might get those resets and those spells as a result you will likely not use them or will use them for out of combat story purposes (which is not bad its half the game but its impossible to measure usefulness, I will come back to this)
The result is your really only looking at 1 effective rest in most days other then fun toys.
---At level 10 with 1 rest: cast 4 spells with 20 spell levels
---At level 11 with 1 rest: cast 7 spells with 36 spell levels
---At level 16 with 1 rest: cast 10 spells with 51 spell levels
---At level 19 with 1 rest: cast 16 spells with 75 spell levels
Due to in-efficient casting and having to hold 1 of 3 spell for emergency casting Warlocks can easily effectively lose 3 or 4 spell slot levels to waste.I will call this effectively a 1/3 lose their actual used spell levels because it could be 1/2/3/4/5 of 5 or 15/25 about 2/3.
(some player control here but I unless your making an active attempt to prevent this its a reasonable number BUT the real point is other casters generally don't have to because they cast a second level spell ... they use a second level spell slot)
---At level 10 with 1 rest: cast 4 spells with effective 14 spell levels
---At level 11 with 1 rest: cast 7 spells with effective 24 spell levels
---At level 16 with 1 rest: cast 10 spells with effective 34 spell levels
---At level 19 with 1 rest: cast 16 spells with effective 50 spell levels
Wizards, Bards, Clerics, and Sorcerers
---At level 10: cast 16 spells with 41 spell levels
---At level 11: cast 16 spells with 47 spell levels
---At level 16: cast 18 spells with 62 spell levels
---At level 19: cast 20 spells with 82 spell levels
They are likely to also hold a few spells for emergencies I am going to call it 3 + 1 of their highest level slot.
(would guess a level 1 shield/protection from good and evil, a level 2 misty step, and the highest as a catch all would be the most common but it would depend emergency spell select which could be more efficient than this.)
---At level 10: cast 16 spells with 33 spell levels
---At level 11: cast 16 spells with 38 spell levels
---At level 16: cast 18 spells with 51 spell levels
---At level 19: cast 20 spells with 70 spell levels
So the results for comparison of effective spell slots
lvl 10: Warlock 14 < other full casters 33
lvl 11: Warlock 24 < other full casters 38
lvl 16: Warlock 34 < other full casters 51
lvl 19: Warlock 50 < other full casters 70
So warlocks loose out significantly in combat and more so if their is only 1 combat encounter in a day....
Now I said I would go back to Role play. Role play is a completely different situation. In an all role play day in game, I generally get plenty of rests but hold my spells when ever I think there might be combat.
This may mean warlocks are the most flexible non-combat spell caster class if you don't really on saving spells for combat because your GM always gives you warning as a practice (instead of random attacks that make you paranoid) and your group stops for multiple rest they don't need between social encounters as part of a story element. My group usually has breakfast coming off a long rest and dinner before going on to a long rest and I have to request stops that I may or may not get.
This is all to say... you may not be "wrong" but the numbers also don't prove you right. I really feel, that more then most classes Warlocks (primarily Pact of the Tome) are dependent on the GM play style and group to be effective. Pact of the Blade can always swing a sword. Pact of the chain is very versatile in story, scouting, and freedom to be an "eldritch archer" with a pet. Pact of the tome is billed as a flexible caster that holds up to other full casters. They simply fail to actually hold up IN COMBAT from my experience (wizards casting 7 fire balls and/or lighting bolts at level 9 is going to far surpass eldritch/agonizing blast spam in damage due to always hitting for at least half and being able to hit more than one persons, and they just get more powerful options as they go) but might exceed them out of combat with the right GM and Group. If your a Story based player with a story based GM and a story based group you are likely fine and quite happy with a Pact of the tome warlock. If you played pact of the tome warlock hoping to play full caster with all its flexibility and hold your own in combat while they are dropping 15 spells with great efficiency by picking spell they want to cast and casting it at its level or looking at what spell slots they have and picking the best spell they have at that level... its not likely to work out for you as Pact of the Tome warlock. Based on spell slot power you will end up being a little better than half as powerful. That does not account for Full caster that doesn't play their character well and you being more creative and able to recognize the spells that work best for their level and/or the most effective implementation of them. It might be that at half their "power" your twice as effective as wizard because the wizard player has no tactical since. (We have 2 players out of 8 in my group that still haven't really "gotten" how best to use their characters in combat because the do things that are not effective.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Just saying... When you guys quote only half a sentence and make a point... Its hard to take it seriously...
Gear not equalling class features...
Grog in critical role got gauntlets that gave him 26 str ! Hows that for not wrecking barbarian capstone ? Storm giant gauntlets... Hows that for not wrecking capstone ? The tough feat while having 20 con... Hows that for not wrecking barb capstone...
Gears literally changes characters builds.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Very simple. First of all, the barbarian level 20 feature grants +4 Con as well as strength. So that's a thing not being "wrecked." Secondly, its not assured you will always have the magic items on you and equipped when things happen. Grog could very well encounter rust monster that destroys the item. Third, he could choose to get rid of the guantlets at level 20 (dropping from 26 strength to 24, assuming he doesn't find a tome of manual strength, or whatever its called) but opening up an attunement slot for something that will work even better for him at this stage in the game than the gauntlets.
I'm sure there's a ton of other reasons. Gear doesn't change character builds - a player might choose to take a different path, but its not a change unless a player wants to try new things.