For scouting I have an owl familiar, admittably with its limitations compared to Summoning spells...
Pity about the sinkhole, But I`ll ask my DM.
For now I`m leaning toward Fabricate. It seems quite good as a money maker and as utility spell, but I'm considering also Wall of fire and Greater invisibility.
You would need a druid, bard, or ranger for plant growth.
I think I won`t be taking Fabricate in the end... My DM told me, he`d find ways of limiting such "cheat" uses of this. And if we`d have to always find resources ourselves, and then finding someone who actually wants to buy in large quantities... It`s not the adventure I want. Using it only occasionally seems a waste. So I don`t think the best experience from D&D for me, is to own a corporation there... That`s more of a reality mindset that I`m escaping there...:)
@IamSposta wall of fire - I was also considering this, But I plan to take Wall of Force on next level... You think it`s worth taking both?
Wall of Fire is really good for area denial and outright damage.
Wall of Force has multiple uses but you would have to be creative in order to do damage with it.
Ofc, Wall of Force is not primarily about DMG, but it has so many uses. Seems like one of the best spells in the game. I was comparing them since they are both "wall"/control spells.
wall of fire seems very cool (Dumbledore`s go to spell in HP6 :D)... But I also wouldn`t say it`s about primarily damage. Usually I think you manage to hit the enemies once, max twice (correct me if I`m wrong)... Perhaps if somehow you shove them back, or you make it into difficult terrain. But that would require then two concentrations from two casters which is a lot of resources... It seems more about control then outright dmg to me. And for purely damage Fireball seems still a better option (yesterday my one FB did 108 dmg, second one about half and GG...)
Watery sphere still seems quite cool to me as well, especially against casters (Low Strength saves, they lose line of sight, can`t speak...) plus you can move it each round (even tho 1 action is high cost for that).
These two seems best fit for me also since I`m a diviner and I can force a creature to fail their save at least once or twice (which is usually a lot) with Portent.
I LOVE the spell Secret Chest (despite its rather spendy components). Not a combat spell, but so useful(although we don’t track every pound of encumbrance at our table, we do try to maintain a sense of realism regarding how much stuff you can schlep around) and so much flavor.
Realism in a fantasy game? I will pass :) Seems cool, but really niche...
Divination wizards cannot take gravity sinkhole without special permission from the DM.
Gravity Sinkhole is a Wizard spell, and can be learned by wizards. Whether or not he finds the spell is what is up to the DM. But that's just true in general for all scrolls anyway.
I posted the rules about it earlier, did you miss that?
Unfortunately no sinkhole for me (based on my DM`s decision). Outside of usual 2 per level, I got only two spells from him in first 8 levels (fireball and magic missile), so I`m not surprised :D
Evard’s Black Tentacle is quite powerful, but I particularly really like Fire Shield. It’s not that good for Diviners, but it’s a must pick for Abjurers.
Several people already mentioned the Tentacles and voted for it in the poll. Personally I`ve had bad experience with using Web in this party (many fighters who need to be close), also our Ranger had Entangle, couldn`t really use it too much.. Since then I tend to stay away from things like the Tentacles in this party... Fire shield seems very weak for a 4th lvl spell unless you are in the Fire plane or similar, it doesn`t seem too useful. Also my char poses the ring of warmth (resistance to cold DMG).
Thanks everyone again for your tips! Our next session is coming up in a month, I didn`t decide yet, but Wall of Fire is my top candidate for now, seconded by Watery sphere.
@IamSposta wall of fire - I was also considering this, But I plan to take Wall of Force on next level... You think it`s worth taking both?
Wall of Fire is really good for area denial and outright damage.
Wall of Force has multiple uses but you would have to be creative in order to do damage with it.
Ofc, Wall of Force is not primarily about DMG, but it has so many uses. Seems like one of the best spells in the game. I was comparing them since they are both "wall"/control spells.
wall of fire seems very cool (Dumbledore`s go to spell in HP6 :D)... But I also wouldn`t say it`s about primarily damage. Usually I think you manage to hit the enemies once, max twice (correct me if I`m wrong)... Perhaps if somehow you shove them back, or you make it into difficult terrain. But that would require then two concentrations from two casters which is a lot of resources... It seems more about control then outright dmg to me. And for purely damage Fireball seems still a better option (yesterday my one FB did 108 dmg, second one about half and GG...)
True, it typically only deals the damage once or maybe twice, but it’s a lot of damage, and then it still acts as area denial too. So it can contribute to the battle effort in multiple ways. It’s a very efficient spell. I’m not saying you should take it, just explaining its pros is all.
Divination wizards cannot take gravity sinkhole without special permission from the DM.
Gravity Sinkhole is a Wizard spell, and can be learned by wizards. Whether or not he finds the spell is what is up to the DM. But that's just true in general for all scrolls anyway.
I posted the rules about it earlier, did you miss that?
I miss all your posts, I only caught this one because someone else quoted it. And no, gravity sinkhole is not a “wizard spell,” it’s a graviturgy spell which is not the same thing, and requires special permission from the DM by means of finding a scroll for it. So I stand by my statement.
Ofc, Wall of Force is not primarily about DMG, but it has so many uses. Seems like one of the best spells in the game. I was comparing them since they are both "wall"/control spells.
wall of fire seems very cool (Dumbledore`s go to spell in HP6 :D)... But I also wouldn`t say it`s about primarily damage. Usually I think you manage to hit the enemies once, max twice (correct me if I`m wrong)... Perhaps if somehow you shove them back, or you make it into difficult terrain. But that would require then two concentrations from two casters which is a lot of resources... It seems more about control then outright dmg to me. And for purely damage Fireball seems still a better option (yesterday my one FB did 108 dmg, second one about half and GG...)
Sometimes it gets better with teamwork. Entangle with Wall of Fire works wonders, same with a strong friend grappling the bad guys and holding them in the fire =)
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Divination wizards cannot take gravity sinkhole without special permission from the DM.
Gravity Sinkhole is a Wizard spell, and can be learned by wizards. Whether or not he finds the spell is what is up to the DM. But that's just true in general for all scrolls anyway.
I posted the rules about it earlier, did you miss that?
I miss all your posts, I only caught this one because someone else quoted it. And no, gravity sinkhole is not a “wizard spell,” it’s a graviturgy spell which is not the same thing, and requires special permission from the DM by means of finding a scroll for it. So I stand by my statement.
It is absolutely a wizard spell. Read the rules I quoted. Or, fine, I'll quote them a second time with just the key bit you need to read:
"Dunamancy spells are readily available to the wizard subclasses in this chapter and should not be simply added to the full spell lists of other spellcasting classes."
This tells us everything we need to know. That they're readily available to a couple subclasses of wizard. (As compared to not readily, but still available, to other wizards) And also that should a DM decide to, he could even expand their availability to other classes. Classes. Other... classes.
You don't need to expand them to wizard because that's the class these 'dunamancy' sub-classes are, already. Graviturgy and Chronomancy are... wizard subclasses. These 'dunamancy' subclasses are wizards, and their 'dunamancy' spells are wizard spells.
But at the DM's option you can allow dunamancy to other classes. Like druids. Or clerics. Or bards. Etc.
It doesn't say that other wizard subclasses need special permission to learn these wizard spells. It says other classes need special permission.
Wizards can always learn other spells from other wizards. That is their whole shtick. Is wizard spell? Can copy into spellbook.
The only DM buy-in you need is him narrating that one of these spells is within your wizard's reach. The same DM buy-in you need for any scroll. But if you have a scroll of Gravity Sinkhole you can of course learn it as a wizard using the normal spell learning mechanics.
Disagree? Disagree with this:
"Perhaps the characters uncover a cache of magical contraband, among which is a couple of spell scrolls, or a traveling acolyte takes some downtime with a friendly cleric character and opens their mind to some of the stranger secrets of the universe, unlocking a spell or two. There are many unique ways to bring these spells into your game without requiring any specific dunamis-wielding subclasses to be present in the adventuring party."
Sposta's point, which is confirmed by the book's writers, is that to choose dunamancy spells you need to be one of the two subclasses. In order to get the spells as a Wizard without those subclasses is to find an external source such as a mentor, spell scroll, another wizard's spellbook, etc. You don't get them as part of the usual starting / 2 per level, you get from levelling up, unless you're one of those two subclasses (which is why D&D Beyond doesn't let you). Yes, you *can* get the spells as a different wizard, not ONLY through the DM making the special decision to provide you with that spell scroll/book/mentor/etc.
Sposta's point, which is confirmed by the book's writers, is that to choose dunamancy spells you need to be one of the two subclasses. In order to get the spells as a Wizard without those subclasses is to find an external source such as a mentor, spell scroll, another wizard's spellbook, etc. You don't get them as part of the usual starting / 2 per level, you get from levelling up, unless you're one of those two subclasses (which is why D&D Beyond doesn't let you). Yes, you *can* get the spells as a different wizard, not ONLY through the DM making the special decision to provide you with that spell scroll/book/mentor/etc.
The rules you quote kinda prove their point.
That is literally what I am saying. They are wizard spells and you can add them to your spellbook if you find them on scrolls.
Even if you approach this from a narrative POV... we know from first hand video-feed evidence that the author treats these spells as wizard spells. They're just rare, closely guarded spells that aren't in open circulation. But they are absolutely wizard spells. And can be learned just like any other wizard spells. We even watch as one of the source materials author's own campaign, his wizard player adds some of these spells to their Evoker's spellbook. Because they're... wizard spells.
Sposta's point, which is confirmed by the book's writers, is that to choose dunamancy spells you need to be one of the two subclasses. In order to get the spells as a Wizard without those subclasses is to find an external source such as a mentor, spell scroll, another wizard's spellbook, etc. You don't get them as part of the usual starting / 2 per level, you get from levelling up, unless you're one of those two subclasses (which is why D&D Beyond doesn't let you). Yes, you *can* get the spells as a different wizard, not ONLY through the DM making the special decision to provide you with that spell scroll/book/mentor/etc.
The rules you quote kinda prove their point.
That is literally what I am saying. They are wizard spells and you can add them to your spellbook if you find them on scrolls.
I think the confusion is that the game considers the term "Wizard spell" to mean a spell specifically on the Wizard spell list. While these dunamancy spells can be taken by wizards, they are not actually on the "Wizard spell list" so are not, in game terms, Wizard spells. Your ability to scribe them anyway is pure DM fiat, albeit suggested fiat from the notebox in the EGtW book.
Sposta's point, which is confirmed by the book's writers, is that to choose dunamancy spells you need to be one of the two subclasses. In order to get the spells as a Wizard without those subclasses is to find an external source such as a mentor, spell scroll, another wizard's spellbook, etc. You don't get them as part of the usual starting / 2 per level, you get from levelling up, unless you're one of those two subclasses (which is why D&D Beyond doesn't let you). Yes, you *can* get the spells as a different wizard, not ONLY through the DM making the special decision to provide you with that spell scroll/book/mentor/etc.
The rules you quote kinda prove their point.
That is literally what I am saying. They are wizard spells and you can add them to your spellbook if you find them on scrolls.
I think the confusion is that the game considers the term "Wizard spell" to mean a spell specifically on the Wizard spell list. While these dunamancy spells can be taken by wizards, they are not actually on the "Wizard spell list" so are not, in game terms, Wizard spells. Your ability to scribe them anyway is pure DM fiat, albeit suggested fiat from the notebox in the EGtW book.
Wizards cast gravity sinkhole. And only wizards can, without DM intervention. Wizards can add them to their spellbooks if they find them as scrolls. They are wizard spells.
"Other classes" need special DM permission. As it clearly says in the rules for these spells. Wizards just need access to them.
My personal favorite at 4th level is currently Raulothim's Psychic Lance for a number of reasons;
It does psychic damage which is one of the least resisted damage types in the game and that helps with dealing with devils and angel types.
You don't have to see the target to hit the target; Long as your target is in the 120 foot range when you cast it (and know what the target is), the target must make a saving throw even if invisible.
In addition to a near fireball's worth of damage(some times more so), it incapacitates the target when they fail their saving throw. Giving your front liners a full turn to whack the target with no retaliation.
It starts off strong with 7d6 dice and gets stronger with an additional 1d6 for each slot above 4th. By the time you reach 8th level spells you can unload 11d6s(Why you would spend a level 9 slot for this spell instead of a wish, I have no idea) right into the target's mind making their head's explode like the news ancorman from Scanners.
Psychic Lance is not affected by the target's intelligence; some foes skip under the power of spells due to having a minimum intellect of 3 or lower (I'm looking at you slimes). Psychic Lance cares not and works very effectively on dum-dum foes.
As far as 4th level go, I'm a big fan of Shadow of Moil. Helps with defense and offense, plus provides passive dps if anyone hits you within 10 feet of you. Spellcasters can't target you directly unless they have tremorsense/blindsight, enemies have disadvantage on attacks, you have advantage, it really checks a lot of boxes. Only for warlocks or bards true, but still.
Resilient sphere seems awfully handy as well. Also an artificer with Fabricate can do some cool stuff.
Summon Greater Demon. I use this spell WAY more often than Banishment, Polymorph or Dimension Door. Greater Invisibility and R. Psychic Lance are probably similar in terms of how often I use them, but this spell is cooler thematically than those are.
This is the most powerful summon spell in the game IMO. The demon turning on you is a concern, however smart placement and using the material component to protect yourself usually mitigates that and when he does turn you can drop concentration and cast it again and have two demons wreaking havoc.
I usually spend some downtime to dig up some truenames on Babau, Barlugra and Vrocks. These three are the sweet spot of this spell. Babau is freaking awesome giving you essentially access to at will Dispel Magic, Fear and Heat Metal (albeit on a low saving throw) until he breaks control on a single 4th level slot. Vrocks and Barlgura are more tankish options designed to soak up attacks in a single fight. Note Vrock requires a 5th level slot.
There is also some creative uses like using an 8th level slot to throw a Glabrezu into the middle of a bunch of enemies like a hand grenade and then teleporting away. He will probably break control in his first turn but he will still be wreaking havoc while you are concentrating.
Also at higher levels you can use it with magic circle and upcast planar binding to have a demon (usually a Vrock) serving you for an extended period. I like this better than other options like binding a high level Summon Fey or a Simulacrum because those options do not have hit dice and usually have fewer hps (simulcrum a lot fewer hps) while also not having resistance to non-magic damage or magic resistance.
My personal favorite at 4th level is currently Raulothim's Psychic Lance for a number of reasons;
You don't have to see the target to hit the target; Long as your target is in the 120 foot range when you cast it (and know what the target is), the target must make a saving throw even if invisible.
You need to actually know the targets name, not just know what it is. Sometimes you know the name, especially if it is a boss. Most of the time you don't though and a lot of monsters might not even have a name.
So if you are swallowed by a purple worm for example you can't cast it at it (you are blinded and it probably doesn't even have a name). Ask me how know this!
I think I won`t be taking Fabricate in the end... My DM told me, he`d find ways of limiting such "cheat" uses of this. And if we`d have to always find resources ourselves, and then finding someone who actually wants to buy in large quantities... It`s not the adventure I want. Using it only occasionally seems a waste. So I don`t think the best experience from D&D for me, is to own a corporation there... That`s more of a reality mindset that I`m escaping there...:)
Ofc, Wall of Force is not primarily about DMG, but it has so many uses. Seems like one of the best spells in the game. I was comparing them since they are both "wall"/control spells.
wall of fire seems very cool (Dumbledore`s go to spell in HP6 :D)... But I also wouldn`t say it`s about primarily damage. Usually I think you manage to hit the enemies once, max twice (correct me if I`m wrong)... Perhaps if somehow you shove them back, or you make it into difficult terrain. But that would require then two concentrations from two casters which is a lot of resources... It seems more about control then outright dmg to me. And for purely damage Fireball seems still a better option (yesterday my one FB did 108 dmg, second one about half and GG...)
Watery sphere still seems quite cool to me as well, especially against casters (Low Strength saves, they lose line of sight, can`t speak...) plus you can move it each round (even tho 1 action is high cost for that).
These two seems best fit for me also since I`m a diviner and I can force a creature to fail their save at least once or twice (which is usually a lot) with Portent.
Realism in a fantasy game? I will pass :) Seems cool, but really niche...
Unfortunately no sinkhole for me (based on my DM`s decision). Outside of usual 2 per level, I got only two spells from him in first 8 levels (fireball and magic missile), so I`m not surprised :D
Several people already mentioned the Tentacles and voted for it in the poll. Personally I`ve had bad experience with using Web in this party (many fighters who need to be close), also our Ranger had Entangle, couldn`t really use it too much.. Since then I tend to stay away from things like the Tentacles in this party... Fire shield seems very weak for a 4th lvl spell unless you are in the Fire plane or similar, it doesn`t seem too useful. Also my char poses the ring of warmth (resistance to cold DMG).
Thanks everyone again for your tips! Our next session is coming up in a month, I didn`t decide yet, but Wall of Fire is my top candidate for now, seconded by Watery sphere.
True, it typically only deals the damage once or maybe twice, but it’s a lot of damage, and then it still acts as area denial too. So it can contribute to the battle effort in multiple ways. It’s a very efficient spell. I’m not saying you should take it, just explaining its pros is all.
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I miss all your posts, I only caught this one because someone else quoted it. And no, gravity sinkhole is not a “wizard spell,” it’s a graviturgy spell which is not the same thing, and requires special permission from the DM by means of finding a scroll for it. So I stand by my statement.
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Sometimes it gets better with teamwork. Entangle with Wall of Fire works wonders, same with a strong friend grappling the bad guys and holding them in the fire =)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It is absolutely a wizard spell. Read the rules I quoted. Or, fine, I'll quote them a second time with just the key bit you need to read:
This tells us everything we need to know. That they're readily available to a couple subclasses of wizard. (As compared to not readily, but still available, to other wizards) And also that should a DM decide to, he could even expand their availability to other classes. Classes. Other... classes.
You don't need to expand them to wizard because that's the class these 'dunamancy' sub-classes are, already. Graviturgy and Chronomancy are... wizard subclasses. These 'dunamancy' subclasses are wizards, and their 'dunamancy' spells are wizard spells.
But at the DM's option you can allow dunamancy to other classes. Like druids. Or clerics. Or bards. Etc.
It doesn't say that other wizard subclasses need special permission to learn these wizard spells. It says other classes need special permission.
Wizards can always learn other spells from other wizards. That is their whole shtick. Is wizard spell? Can copy into spellbook.
The only DM buy-in you need is him narrating that one of these spells is within your wizard's reach. The same DM buy-in you need for any scroll. But if you have a scroll of Gravity Sinkhole you can of course learn it as a wizard using the normal spell learning mechanics.
Disagree? Disagree with this:
I got quotes!
Rav,
Sposta's point, which is confirmed by the book's writers, is that to choose dunamancy spells you need to be one of the two subclasses. In order to get the spells as a Wizard without those subclasses is to find an external source such as a mentor, spell scroll, another wizard's spellbook, etc. You don't get them as part of the usual starting / 2 per level, you get from levelling up, unless you're one of those two subclasses (which is why D&D Beyond doesn't let you). Yes, you *can* get the spells as a different wizard, not ONLY through the DM making the special decision to provide you with that spell scroll/book/mentor/etc.
The rules you quote kinda prove their point.
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That is literally what I am saying. They are wizard spells and you can add them to your spellbook if you find them on scrolls.
Even if you approach this from a narrative POV... we know from first hand video-feed evidence that the author treats these spells as wizard spells. They're just rare, closely guarded spells that aren't in open circulation. But they are absolutely wizard spells. And can be learned just like any other wizard spells. We even watch as one of the source materials author's own campaign, his wizard player adds some of these spells to their Evoker's spellbook. Because they're... wizard spells.
I got quotes!
I think the confusion is that the game considers the term "Wizard spell" to mean a spell specifically on the Wizard spell list. While these dunamancy spells can be taken by wizards, they are not actually on the "Wizard spell list" so are not, in game terms, Wizard spells. Your ability to scribe them anyway is pure DM fiat, albeit suggested fiat from the notebox in the EGtW book.
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
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Wizards cast them. They're wizard spells.
I got quotes!
That's a valid personal interpretation.
It's not the official one, though. Hence the confusion.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
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Wizards cast gravity sinkhole. And only wizards can, without DM intervention. Wizards can add them to their spellbooks if they find them as scrolls. They are wizard spells.
"Other classes" need special DM permission. As it clearly says in the rules for these spells. Wizards just need access to them.
That's how it works. Officially.
I got quotes!
My personal favorite at 4th level is currently Raulothim's Psychic Lance for a number of reasons;
As far as 4th level go, I'm a big fan of Shadow of Moil. Helps with defense and offense, plus provides passive dps if anyone hits you within 10 feet of you. Spellcasters can't target you directly unless they have tremorsense/blindsight, enemies have disadvantage on attacks, you have advantage, it really checks a lot of boxes. Only for warlocks or bards true, but still.
Resilient sphere seems awfully handy as well. Also an artificer with Fabricate can do some cool stuff.
Summon Greater Demon. I use this spell WAY more often than Banishment, Polymorph or Dimension Door. Greater Invisibility and R. Psychic Lance are probably similar in terms of how often I use them, but this spell is cooler thematically than those are.
This is the most powerful summon spell in the game IMO. The demon turning on you is a concern, however smart placement and using the material component to protect yourself usually mitigates that and when he does turn you can drop concentration and cast it again and have two demons wreaking havoc.
I usually spend some downtime to dig up some truenames on Babau, Barlugra and Vrocks. These three are the sweet spot of this spell. Babau is freaking awesome giving you essentially access to at will Dispel Magic, Fear and Heat Metal (albeit on a low saving throw) until he breaks control on a single 4th level slot. Vrocks and Barlgura are more tankish options designed to soak up attacks in a single fight. Note Vrock requires a 5th level slot.
There is also some creative uses like using an 8th level slot to throw a Glabrezu into the middle of a bunch of enemies like a hand grenade and then teleporting away. He will probably break control in his first turn but he will still be wreaking havoc while you are concentrating.
Also at higher levels you can use it with magic circle and upcast planar binding to have a demon (usually a Vrock) serving you for an extended period. I like this better than other options like binding a high level Summon Fey or a Simulacrum because those options do not have hit dice and usually have fewer hps (simulcrum a lot fewer hps) while also not having resistance to non-magic damage or magic resistance.
You need to actually know the targets name, not just know what it is. Sometimes you know the name, especially if it is a boss. Most of the time you don't though and a lot of monsters might not even have a name.
So if you are swallowed by a purple worm for example you can't cast it at it (you are blinded and it probably doesn't even have a name). Ask me how know this!
Still a great spell though.