No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
With all due civility, a simple “We don’t know, WotC hasn’t told us how they want us to implement this yet” before page 3 of the third or fourth thread asking the same questions for weeks on end would be perceived by the user base as “transparency” from DDB.
Stating “an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason” after weeks of asking is perceived by us users as “obfuscation, omission, and ignoring users” on the part of DDB. Weeks of us asking over and over and not getting an any form of answer until a thread like this pops up is seen as us having to raise a giant stink to finally dra—aga straightforward any semblance of an answer out of DDB. This is the opposite of what people consider “transparency.”
Take a look at the front of page of ENWorld, the owner of Fantasy Grounds basically said if you want the new stat blocks you have to buy the book and you’ll see two listings if you do.
Hey, so absolute child here throwing in my 2 cents, so as someone who hasn’t bought anything at all on this website this seems like a decent deal and maybe it’s meant for customers like me?
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
Very well.
Since D&D Beyond insists on treating its supposedly-valued customer base like mushroom-shaped piggy banks they can kcik open for free donations at will, allow me to supply the answer.
DDB has an answer. They "cannot provide it at this time" because the answer is "yes, you all already own this content, we're selling you your own stuff, but if we told you that then M3 would be our poorest-performing book ever by a huge margin and look really bad on our quarterlies". Because good quarterlies are more important to DDB than healthy engagement with its customer base, it's hiding behind Wizards of the Coast as the Big bad Bogeyman and actively deceiving customers by offering the usual preorder fanfare, hoping to partially offset the poor-performing book by snapping up a bunch of presales it wouldn't have gotten had it been straight and honest with its customers from the beginning.
Am I warm, or warmer?
Don't worry. I know - "an answer cannot be provided at this time." When that answer is provided, sometime in late April or early May? I can check back here to see how on the money I was.
Hey, so absolute child here throwing in my 2 cents, so as someone who hasn’t bought anything at all on this website this seems like a decent deal and maybe it’s meant for customers like me?
That would bve fine, if they were open about that. Like: This is only for people who haven't bought this or this yet, because the rest get auto-updates. Or this is how we'll handle updated statblocks.
That's what we're asking. Transparancy over what's going to happen. Right now they're asking money without being able to tell us what we're paying for.
In my opinion if DDB doesn't know how they are going to implement this based on their licensing agreement they shouldn't be offering it for pre-order yet. It's a predatory marketing tactic due to customers not knowing what they are buying.
DDB mods/staff have tried to say it's clear what we're buying in previous threads (just a license to view the content) but now they don't even know what we'll be able to view with that license. Pathetic.
If this is the book WotC, in talks with DDB, decide they aren't going to update content it looks even more scummy. The fact that there is even a question what's going to happen considering the standing policy before this is horrendous.
Like: This is only for people who haven't bought this or this yet, because the rest get auto-updates.
If we get auto-updates, we should get the book for free or nearly so due to DDB's policy of the cost of owned content being deducted from the price of new books. That combined with now having a price listed is actually a pretty good indicator it's likely this will not be treated as auto-update material.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'd love more info as well, however, it's also good to keep in mind that it makes zero difference whether someone pre-orders the book today or on May 16th. So, sure, more info earlier than later would be great, but there's about 118 days before the answers even matter at all. *shrug* Not sure if you want to buy, just wait. You've got plenty of time.
Like: This is only for people who haven't bought this or this yet, because the rest get auto-updates.
If we get auto-updates, we should get the book for free or nearly so due to DDB's policy of the cost of owned content being deducted from the price of new books. That combined with now having a price listed is actually a pretty good indicator it's likely this will not be treated as auto-update material.
Pre-orders have never been reduced for pre-owned content as far as I'm aware so perhaps not a good indicator?
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
Davyd, and with all due respect to the actual service you provide to DDB in terms of content and actually moderating, but when did the unpaid volunteer moderators get tasked with being the articulators of DDB policy outside community moderation? "A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means." Was that talking point given to you by Mellie or Joe or someone higher up, because that's an epic fail in corporate talking points. You're a smart guy, Davyd, and you gotta realize how it's not really Orwellian, because at least Orwell was clever, but Rumsfeldian in its effort to sound erudite in lieu of DDB owning responsibility for not communicating the workings of MMM in terms of DDB's existing and documented update policy for content. If that articulation was given to you, that's almost abusive of them asking you to put your name on it instead of the actual company speaking up for their communications policy. If that's a personal formulation, again moderation isn't always public relations and maybe it would be in order to get someone more qualified to speak or write in this area.
(Not) Answering a question with silence has more connotative meaning than the extremely limited denotative meaning you're trying to articulate. Anyone who uses communications skills as part of their actual job or in their avocation knows that.
A product is now for sale. A product which for the first time in WotC history is entirely updates of prior content with the exception of a some lore/compendium content. Does DDB existing content update policy apply to this book? It's that simple a question and I'd prefer an answer even if it's "we don't know (ideally with "and here's why" beyond that)" from someone with a Red screen name not an orange being sent out as a communications team skirmisher.
I guess DDB isn't too interested in earning my money if they aren't willing to make any sort of attempt to give answers on what is going to happen when this book launches. The changes that I've seen in the new book were very much a mixed bag for me; what I did like, I did really like, but the things I don't like, I really don't like. I'd rather not have this forced upon everyone who has the previous versions, as I understand that there are those who do not like the changes at all. All DDB has to do is give a simple yes or no over "will this replace the content I've already paid for regardless of whether I buy the book or not?". The fact they have the nerve to ask for our money for a product that they apparently don't have a clue regarding how this is going to work speaks volumes for how little they care about the concerns or feelings of their consumers.
But anyhow, until DDB gets its shtick together and actually talks to their customers about what's going on, like any good business does, they won't be seeing another dime from me from here on out.
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
Davyd, and with all due respect to the actual service you provide to DDB in terms of content and actually moderating, but when did the unpaid volunteer moderators get tasked with being the articulators of DDB policy outside community moderation? "A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means." Was that talking point given to you by Mellie or Joe or someone higher up, because that's an epic fail in corporate talking points. You're a smart guy, Davyd, and you gotta realize how it's not really Orwellian, because at least Orwell was clever, but Rumsfeldian in its effort to sound erudite in lieu of DDB owning responsibility for not communicating the workings of MMM in terms of DDB's existing and documented update policy for content. If that articulation was given to you, that's almost abusive of them asking you to put your name on it instead of the actual company speaking up for their communications policy. If that's a personal formulation, again moderation isn't always public relations and maybe it would be in order to get someone more qualified to speak or write in this area.
(Not) Answering a question with silence has more connotative meaning than the extremely limited denotative meaning you're trying to articulate. Anyone who uses communications skills as part of their actual job or in their avocation knows that.
A product is now for sale. A product which for the first time in WotC history is entirely updates of prior content with the exception of a some lore/compendium content. Does DDB existing content update policy apply to this book? It's that simple a question and I'd prefer an answer even if it's "we don't know (ideally with "and here's why" beyond that)" from someone with a Red screen name not an orange being sent out as a communications team skirmisher.
I would like to apologise for not wording my response in a way that didn't leave it open to being misinterpreted, that's on me.
I was not speaking in any capacity other than a moderator and what is and is not welcome on the D&D Beyond social and community platforms. Questions about DDB are always welcome as long as they are asked in a way that follows the site/server rules and guidelines. Any civil question is a welcome one in these spaces, it's part of the reason they exist. I would encourage people not to take the lack of desired response as an indication to the contrary of what is and is not suitable for the forums/discord/twitch etc.
I cannot speak for anything other than what is appropriate for these spaces as I am only a moderator and that is the limit of my remit.
Again, I apologise for the lack of specificity in my initial response. Once again, questions about D&D Beyond are always welcome, but the moderation team cannot guarantee any kind of answer to said questions.
Ophidancer posted a video in the long thread about the leaks about MP:MotM that apparently says that there won't be automatic updates to old books to match MotM. I haven't watched the video, just saw his quote from it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Gotta say, not only have I stopped pre-ordering stuff, after Strixhaven and Witchlight I’m not even ordering in the first few weeks of a product’s launch. I’m just going to wait for various bloggers I trust along with carefully perusing the forums to find out whether or not I should bother. The last purchase I was happy with was Van Richten’s. I’ll wait on this book until it’s been throughly vetted by the “early adopters”.
Thanks for the ongoing discussion and the questions being raised here. I can understand the frustration some of you are feeling about not knowing precisely how this title is going to be implemented on D&D Beyond, or how (if at all) it will impact existing material. I can also understand how in the face of that 'not knowing' that it's tempting to roll some Investigation and Insight checks to try and figure it out yourself. I can't fault anyone for it, since I've definitely done it myself for things I love, too.
Currently I (and the rest of the folks here at DDB, including our hard-working moderation team) can't speak to the exact details and answers you're seeking--I know that's not a satisfying response, but it's all I can offer just at this moment. Rest assured we are working closely with our partners at Wizards of the Coast to align our goals for you as our community and userbase, and their expectations for this exciting new product that they're preparing to launch. As we reach a point where we're confident about all of the details and certain about what we can reveal in advance of the product's launch, we will absolutely share it with you all here, in our article content, on our social media channels, and on our video content.
Again, I know that "more information is coming" is hardly a satisfying answer, but I hope you'll grant us the patience to make sure that those details are just right both for our partners at WOTC, and for you all right here on DDB.
The pre-order of MMM is for a digital version of the hardcover book, as it has always been. Literally chapter for chapter, image for image, word for word (including the extra content in the margins of the book, that other books had). Logic and historical data indicate that you are buying a digital version of the hardcover book, plain and simple. That is what they are offering for pre-order. And that is fine, if you like collecting digital books for your digital shelves. If you don't want the digital book, don't pre-order. They're not trying to swindle you out of your money, any more than WotC could be perceived to be.
I believe what we are all seeking clarity on, is whether the DDB database will be updated with the new content, regardless of purchase. And by the look of things, they don't know yet, or have nothing to say beyond "they don't know, we're still waiting on word from WotC." And there is no reason to get nasty about that.
If WotC says that the new racial features and monster statistics of MMM will be standard, then DDB will have to update the character builder and monster tool with that new data, as directed by the owners/proprietors of the product that DDB is supporting. It is not DDB's call.
If you go to the top of DDB, select Sources, select PHB, select Races, and then select Dragonborn, you'll notice the old, non-Fitzban racial features are still there. They have the ability to keep legacy content. The question we should patiently be waiting for, is "will they do so in this case?"
What we do know though: "Don't pre-order it 'cause there is a chance it will cost you significantly less if you already own 99% of the content of the book." (given that it is implemented as errata, which I suspect it will be, looking at history.)
As game designers ourselves I asked if the Systems Reference Document would receive an update. There are many monsters in that resource also appearing in the Monster Manual and I wondered if the SRD would integrate these new designs but unfortunately the answer was no.
If MotM is not going to automatically update the SRD, maybe the new stat blocks will be optional here on DDB? Who knows?
So it seems that the monsters from the SRD, at least, won't be automatically overwritten by their MMM variants.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Fundamentally, it's inappropriate and possibly in the EU, outright illegal, to do non-refundable pre-orders on a product you apparently do not even know the nature of - i.e. you're awaiting instructions (if I understand correctly). Am I misunderstanding and the pre-orders are refundable? If not DDB would do well to either prevent EU pre-orders or stop offering pre-orders at all until the product is known.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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With all due civility, a simple “We don’t know, WotC hasn’t told us how they want us to implement this yet” before page 3 of the third or fourth thread asking the same questions for weeks on end would be perceived by the user base as “transparency” from DDB.
Stating “an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason” after weeks of asking is perceived by us users as “obfuscation, omission, and ignoring users” on the part of DDB. Weeks of us asking over and over and not getting an any form of answer until a thread like this pops up is seen as us having to raise a giant stink to finally dra—ag
a straightforwardany semblance of an answer out of DDB. This is the opposite of what people consider “transparency.”Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Take a look at the front of page of ENWorld, the owner of Fantasy Grounds basically said if you want the new stat blocks you have to buy the book and you’ll see two listings if you do.
Hey, so absolute child here throwing in my 2 cents, so as someone who hasn’t bought anything at all on this website this seems like a decent deal and maybe it’s meant for customers like me?
Very well.
Since D&D Beyond insists on treating its supposedly-valued customer base like mushroom-shaped piggy banks they can kcik open for free donations at will, allow me to supply the answer.
DDB has an answer. They "cannot provide it at this time" because the answer is "yes, you all already own this content, we're selling you your own stuff, but if we told you that then M3 would be our poorest-performing book ever by a huge margin and look really bad on our quarterlies". Because good quarterlies are more important to DDB than healthy engagement with its customer base, it's hiding behind Wizards of the Coast as the Big bad Bogeyman and actively deceiving customers by offering the usual preorder fanfare, hoping to partially offset the poor-performing book by snapping up a bunch of presales it wouldn't have gotten had it been straight and honest with its customers from the beginning.
Am I warm, or warmer?
Don't worry. I know - "an answer cannot be provided at this time." When that answer is provided, sometime in late April or early May? I can check back here to see how on the money I was.
Please do not contact or message me.
That would bve fine, if they were open about that. Like: This is only for people who haven't bought this or this yet, because the rest get auto-updates. Or this is how we'll handle updated statblocks.
That's what we're asking. Transparancy over what's going to happen. Right now they're asking money without being able to tell us what we're paying for.
I am also here.
Am snek.
In my opinion if DDB doesn't know how they are going to implement this based on their licensing agreement they shouldn't be offering it for pre-order yet. It's a predatory marketing tactic due to customers not knowing what they are buying.
DDB mods/staff have tried to say it's clear what we're buying in previous threads (just a license to view the content) but now they don't even know what we'll be able to view with that license. Pathetic.
If this is the book WotC, in talks with DDB, decide they aren't going to update content it looks even more scummy. The fact that there is even a question what's going to happen considering the standing policy before this is horrendous.
If we get auto-updates, we should get the book for free or nearly so due to DDB's policy of the cost of owned content being deducted from the price of new books. That combined with now having a price listed is actually a pretty good indicator it's likely this will not be treated as auto-update material.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'd love more info as well, however, it's also good to keep in mind that it makes zero difference whether someone pre-orders the book today or on May 16th. So, sure, more info earlier than later would be great, but there's about 118 days before the answers even matter at all. *shrug* Not sure if you want to buy, just wait. You've got plenty of time.
If we get auto-updates, we should get the book for free or nearly so due to DDB's policy of the cost of owned content being deducted from the price of new books. That combined with now having a price listed is actually a pretty good indicator it's likely this will not be treated as auto-update material.
Pre-orders have never been reduced for pre-owned content as far as I'm aware so perhaps not a good indicator?
Davyd, and with all due respect to the actual service you provide to DDB in terms of content and actually moderating, but when did the unpaid volunteer moderators get tasked with being the articulators of DDB policy outside community moderation? "A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means." Was that talking point given to you by Mellie or Joe or someone higher up, because that's an epic fail in corporate talking points. You're a smart guy, Davyd, and you gotta realize how it's not really Orwellian, because at least Orwell was clever, but Rumsfeldian in its effort to sound erudite in lieu of DDB owning responsibility for not communicating the workings of MMM in terms of DDB's existing and documented update policy for content. If that articulation was given to you, that's almost abusive of them asking you to put your name on it instead of the actual company speaking up for their communications policy. If that's a personal formulation, again moderation isn't always public relations and maybe it would be in order to get someone more qualified to speak or write in this area.
(Not) Answering a question with silence has more connotative meaning than the extremely limited denotative meaning you're trying to articulate. Anyone who uses communications skills as part of their actual job or in their avocation knows that.
A product is now for sale. A product which for the first time in WotC history is entirely updates of prior content with the exception of a some lore/compendium content. Does DDB existing content update policy apply to this book? It's that simple a question and I'd prefer an answer even if it's "we don't know (ideally with "and here's why" beyond that)" from someone with a Red screen name not an orange being sent out as a communications team skirmisher.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I guess DDB isn't too interested in earning my money if they aren't willing to make any sort of attempt to give answers on what is going to happen when this book launches. The changes that I've seen in the new book were very much a mixed bag for me; what I did like, I did really like, but the things I don't like, I really don't like. I'd rather not have this forced upon everyone who has the previous versions, as I understand that there are those who do not like the changes at all. All DDB has to do is give a simple yes or no over "will this replace the content I've already paid for regardless of whether I buy the book or not?". The fact they have the nerve to ask for our money for a product that they apparently don't have a clue regarding how this is going to work speaks volumes for how little they care about the concerns or feelings of their consumers.
But anyhow, until DDB gets its shtick together and actually talks to their customers about what's going on, like any good business does, they won't be seeing another dime from me from here on out.
I would like to apologise for not wording my response in a way that didn't leave it open to being misinterpreted, that's on me.
I was not speaking in any capacity other than a moderator and what is and is not welcome on the D&D Beyond social and community platforms. Questions about DDB are always welcome as long as they are asked in a way that follows the site/server rules and guidelines. Any civil question is a welcome one in these spaces, it's part of the reason they exist. I would encourage people not to take the lack of desired response as an indication to the contrary of what is and is not suitable for the forums/discord/twitch etc.
I cannot speak for anything other than what is appropriate for these spaces as I am only a moderator and that is the limit of my remit.
Again, I apologise for the lack of specificity in my initial response. Once again, questions about D&D Beyond are always welcome, but the moderation team cannot guarantee any kind of answer to said questions.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
https://www.dndbeyond.com/changelog/1147-streamlined-book-updates-on-mobile-v2-6
"In the upcoming weeks we are going to be releasing updates to many books to provide the latest versions of the content."
Interesting...
Ophidancer posted a video in the long thread about the leaks about MP:MotM that apparently says that there won't be automatic updates to old books to match MotM. I haven't watched the video, just saw his quote from it.
Something to think about.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Gotta say, not only have I stopped pre-ordering stuff, after Strixhaven and Witchlight I’m not even ordering in the first few weeks of a product’s launch. I’m just going to wait for various bloggers I trust along with carefully perusing the forums to find out whether or not I should bother. The last purchase I was happy with was Van Richten’s. I’ll wait on this book until it’s been throughly vetted by the “early adopters”.
Hello everyone!
Thanks for the ongoing discussion and the questions being raised here. I can understand the frustration some of you are feeling about not knowing precisely how this title is going to be implemented on D&D Beyond, or how (if at all) it will impact existing material. I can also understand how in the face of that 'not knowing' that it's tempting to roll some Investigation and Insight checks to try and figure it out yourself. I can't fault anyone for it, since I've definitely done it myself for things I love, too.
Currently I (and the rest of the folks here at DDB, including our hard-working moderation team) can't speak to the exact details and answers you're seeking--I know that's not a satisfying response, but it's all I can offer just at this moment. Rest assured we are working closely with our partners at Wizards of the Coast to align our goals for you as our community and userbase, and their expectations for this exciting new product that they're preparing to launch. As we reach a point where we're confident about all of the details and certain about what we can reveal in advance of the product's launch, we will absolutely share it with you all here, in our article content, on our social media channels, and on our video content.
Again, I know that "more information is coming" is hardly a satisfying answer, but I hope you'll grant us the patience to make sure that those details are just right both for our partners at WOTC, and for you all right here on DDB.
The pre-order of MMM is for a digital version of the hardcover book, as it has always been. Literally chapter for chapter, image for image, word for word (including the extra content in the margins of the book, that other books had). Logic and historical data indicate that you are buying a digital version of the hardcover book, plain and simple. That is what they are offering for pre-order. And that is fine, if you like collecting digital books for your digital shelves. If you don't want the digital book, don't pre-order. They're not trying to swindle you out of your money, any more than WotC could be perceived to be.
I believe what we are all seeking clarity on, is whether the DDB database will be updated with the new content, regardless of purchase. And by the look of things, they don't know yet, or have nothing to say beyond "they don't know, we're still waiting on word from WotC." And there is no reason to get nasty about that.
If WotC says that the new racial features and monster statistics of MMM will be standard, then DDB will have to update the character builder and monster tool with that new data, as directed by the owners/proprietors of the product that DDB is supporting. It is not DDB's call.
If you go to the top of DDB, select Sources, select PHB, select Races, and then select Dragonborn, you'll notice the old, non-Fitzban racial features are still there. They have the ability to keep legacy content. The question we should patiently be waiting for, is "will they do so in this case?"
Well there it is. "We don't know yet."
What we do know though: "Don't pre-order it 'cause there is a chance it will cost you significantly less if you already own 99% of the content of the book." (given that it is implemented as errata, which I suspect it will be, looking at history.)
So it seems that the monsters from the SRD, at least, won't be automatically overwritten by their MMM variants.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
@Davyd
Fundamentally, it's inappropriate and possibly in the EU, outright illegal, to do non-refundable pre-orders on a product you apparently do not even know the nature of - i.e. you're awaiting instructions (if I understand correctly). Am I misunderstanding and the pre-orders are refundable? If not DDB would do well to either prevent EU pre-orders or stop offering pre-orders at all until the product is known.