Not bloody okay, DDB! I know you people hate the forums, but the Discord server is a tire fire and always has been. You can do bloody better than this. THis website right here is where all your business takes place. FREAKING TALK TO US HERE, not on Discord where the message will disappear three slivers of a second after it's posted in the infinite sea of nonsense that is a five-digit population Discord server.
Still...thanks for what little update we can get, Spidey. It grinds my last little gear, but it's better than the dick-all they've been feeding their forum folks.
Which, being extremely fair, we all knew this was the answer.
Honestly, I believe we are thought of as the 'vocal minority' here, hence DDB's approach to putting this up for sale and not telling us, their customers who have spent hundreds of dollars/pounds with them, how this will actually work.
I believe they expect large numbers of people to blindly order it and not say a thing. I dare say they are correct on this I'm afraid.
We'll get an answer eventually but I've got to say, I actually felt offended to be attacked by that blue banner asking me to pre-order without those details we need being laid out so that we can make an informed choice.
This is it right here. Lots of people play D&D, but they don’t really follow every bread crumb WoTC drops about products. Lots of people will say: New monster book! Sweet! And not interrogate it any further.
DDB content is non-refundable, you can't get your money back if it turns out you bought something you already own.
If you bought something you already own because it's a reprint that value gets deducted from the price for you. It's not so much that non-refundable aspect that's an issue, it's whether DDB (or WotC) will validate that ownership: if they say "nope, this is new stuff even if it's a rehash of old stuff so pay up" there's not much a customer who disagrees can do about it. I'm pretty sure a lot of us will consider it an update we should get for free (as far as the character builder is concerned, not the full source) yet a lot of others don't want it to be an update that will be forced upon them - so there's no possible way not to displease a significant number of customers - and WotC/DDB will still want to make money from the book. The licence certainly has a number of conditions and requirements that both parties should satisfy, but that doesn't mean they don't have some wriggle room to mutually agree some of them may not be applicable here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
So. An update, from a very rare sojourn into the hostile wasteland that is the DDB Discord server, delivered straight from the mods there and the "In The Know" users over there:
The DDB dev team doesn't know squat, and they are not going to answer us. They don't want us asking questions, they don't like us starting threads like this, and none of us are supposed to express any sort of discontent, doubt, or irritation with this whole process. We are, instead, supposed to calmly preorder M3 like good customers and hand over our money sight unseen without one single complaint or concern, and also have our entire comment chain deleted because we dared to speak up.
Cool.
And to think I was legit thinking of nabbing Netherdeep a few days ago just for the shinies, even if I don't intend to run the adventure. Nuts to that shit. You get to earn your wallet cookies now, DDB. You wanna pull this shit with me, I'll go as Karen as I have to in order to prove my point.
This. Is. Scummy. It's bad business, and I don't ******* care if Wizards is telling you to do it. Tell them it's bad business and you won't do it to your customers or catch the same shit they're catching over it.
So in case the giant blue banner ribbon across the top of every single DDB page isn't alerting you, DDB finally got permission to put Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse up for pre-order. Landing May 17th, with all the junk we all knew was going to be in M3 since months ago.
Left unanswered? What the hell happens to everyone's currently existing versions of various monsters and species and whether this book is being treated as a collection of opt-in reduxes or as a back-hack errata correction, a'la Volo's Guide to DM Headaches getting futzed with twelve times a year because it's a terrible bloody book and it should feel terrible.
Anyone else on board with maybe not buying M3, especially preorder sales, without knowing how Wizards/DDB plans to handle that? because I've seen at least a dozen threads on it and it's an absolutely valid question, wherever one happens to sit on the ongoing forum "debate" over Wizards' new design direction for 5e.
Yeah, nah. No wallet cookies for you until you give us some actual details here, DDB. Not cool. "HEY YOU SHOULD BUY THIS" should not have been the first thing you told us about the whole M3 situation.
Oh how the turn tables. This is exactly the issue I was arguing about in that long thread about the Forgotten Realms changes to lore. In that thread I suggested that those pages on DDB offer a link/button to see the pre-errata version, but all I got was being told I was bad, and what I suggested wasn't possible or even needed.
Now what do you y'all think! We bought the previous books with these monstrous races a certain way, and they are now retroactively being changed, changes that maybe everyone doesn't want. Well, that's what you get when you support retroactively changing anything.
These new race options should be just that... options. They should be Alternate versions only available if you buy the book. WotC and DDB should NOT be changing the books we paid for already unless it is in fact an error being changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Oh how the turn tables. This is exactly the issue I was arguing about in that long thread about the Forgotten Realms changes to lore. In that thread I suggested that those pages on DDB offer a link/button to see the pre-errata version, but all I got was being told I was bad, and what I suggested wasn't possible or even needed.
It's really not. Whatever happens, having both a pre- and post-errata version is not going to be it. Either it'll be treated as a rehash of older content, iow errata, and then the rehashed version will be the only one going forward, or it'll be treated as new content even if it's really a rehash of old content and then both will be available as separate entries next to each other, not with one or the other hidden behind a button.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Oh how the turn tables. This is exactly the issue I was arguing about in that long thread about the Forgotten Realms changes to lore. In that thread I suggested that those pages on DDB offer a link/button to see the pre-errata version, but all I got was being told I was bad, and what I suggested wasn't possible or even needed.
It's really not. Whatever happens, having both a pre- and post-errata version is not going to be it. Either it'll be treated as a rehash of older content, iow errata, and then the rehashed version will be the only one going forward, or it'll be treated as new content even if it's really a rehash of old content and then both will be available as separate entries next to each other, not with one or the other hidden behind a button.
And what about DMs who don't like or want the new monster stats? What if we like them the way they are? Too bad for us, huh?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
So. An update, from a very rare sojourn into the hostile wasteland that is the DDB Discord server, delivered straight from the mods there and the "In The Know" users over there:
The DDB dev team doesn't know squat, and they are not going to answer us. They don't want us asking questions, they don't like us starting threads like this, and none of us are supposed to express any sort of discontent, doubt, or irritation with this whole process. We are, instead, supposed to calmly preorder M3 like good customers and hand over our money sight unseen without one single complaint or concern, and also have our entire comment chain deleted because we dared to speak up.
Cool.
And to think I was legit thinking of nabbing Netherdeep a few days ago just for the shinies, even if I don't intend to run the adventure. Nuts to that shit. You get to earn your wallet cookies now, DDB. You wanna pull this shit with me, I'll go as Karen as I have to in order to prove my point.
This. Is. Scummy. It's bad business, and I don't ******* care if Wizards is telling you to do it. Tell them it's bad business and you won't do it to your customers or catch the same shit they're catching over it.
I'm going to address this specifically:
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil. There is no room for rudeness, be it here or on the discord server
If we did not like threads like this one existing, we would make it known. However, the moderation team has no issue with people expressing their opinions on the matter. It's valuable to D&D Beyond as a company to have these discussions happen.
Discontent, doubt, irritation, aggravation, grievances, misgivings, uncertainties, worries, concerns, or any other feelings are again, more than welcome as long as (you guessed it), you follow the site rules.
No one is expected or obligated to pre-order or purchase anything. It's your money and spend it how you see fit, when you see fit.
Nothing that does not break the rules has been deleted here or in the discord server. No comment chains were removed, let alone because anyone "dared to speak up"
As for the discord being a 'hostile wasteland', as a member of the moderation team that devotes a lot of their time to both the forums and the discord, it is no more or less a hostile wasteland than the forums are. Make of that what you will, but I assure you that mods involved putting in a lot of work across all of D&D Beyonds community and social spaces making them as welcoming as possible. We are but human and can only do so much in the face of disruptive presences.
Oh how the turn tables. This is exactly the issue I was arguing about in that long thread about the Forgotten Realms changes to lore. In that thread I suggested that those pages on DDB offer a link/button to see the pre-errata version, but all I got was being told I was bad, and what I suggested wasn't possible or even needed.
It's really not. Whatever happens, having both a pre- and post-errata version is not going to be it. Either it'll be treated as a rehash of older content, iow errata, and then the rehashed version will be the only one going forward, or it'll be treated as new content even if it's really a rehash of old content and then both will be available as separate entries next to each other, not with one or the other hidden behind a button.
And what about DMs who don't like or want the new monster stats? What if we like them the way they are? Too bad for us, huh?
If it's option one then yes, pretty much too bad for you. This isn't me gloating or rubbing your nose in it or anything, I derive no pleasure from other players being unhappy, I'm just telling you how it is. Incidentally, if it's option two then that's in practice exactly what you want, and too bad for anyone who prefers differently. There's always going to be people unhappy with how it turns out, and there'd be people unhappy if it were all nixed at the last minute too (which is certainly not going to happen).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There's a big fat blue banner bellowing "PREORDER NOW!!!" across the top of my screen every time I refresh a DDB tab putting the lie to "nobody is expected to pre-order or purchase anything", Davyd. I may not be legally required to buy M3, no - but y'all are pushing it as hard as you can on people who aren't aware they're very likely buying content they already own and blowing thirty dollars on nothing.
People have been asking questions, civilly and otherwise, for months and months. You all knew this was coming. You all knew these questions were being asked. This website has steadfastly refused to answer them, even after taking money for product the team is actively, deliberately refusing to define.
DDB had its chance to settle this issue calmly and civilly ahead of time, like gentlethem. DDB actively discarded that chance. You lot are your own business with your own obligations to people who give you money.
DDB doesn't like me getting my Karen on and being loudly, visibly angry here on the forums? DDB can stop treating me like an inflatable clown it slaps around every month or two when it decides it wants more cookies. Maybe, just maybe, somebody should be on the horn with Wizards saying "this isn't okay and we're catching hell for it, either do better or let us do better."
What do you mean by " if it's option two then that's in practice exactly what you want, and too bad for anyone who prefers differently"
I am proposing they allow users to use either new or old content. Win-Win for everyone. I don't understand why that's so polarizing? I understand that the current agreement might not allow for that, but it is completely within WotC's power to change the agreement to allow it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Questions may be welcome. The complaint though is answers have not been very forthcoming.
Whether intended or not silence in cases like this can seem like indifference or worse to those requesting more information.
The questions about how this book will be handled has been being asked for awhile now, and today we get an invitation to buy without any of those concerns having been addressed in a way that inspires confidence in WOTC and DDB’s customer base.
Rather than make a post about HOW we can ask questions, and what manner of queries are acceptable and unacceptable, could someone please use the same amount of characters to address the actual concerns?
I pay for this service here… not a Discord chat group. As. Customer I would hope you’d address all of us together in the Forum you have established for such and not make us look to other hosts to find out what is going on.
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
Technically no answer is not the same as answers can't be given. If DDB released a statement saying "We can't answer those questions at this time" then it would mean something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
While I will probably pre-order the book eventually regardless of what happens (I like cosmetics), I would still want to know how Beyond is handling the new content, so I know what I am getting and can better prepare.
While I will probably homebrew copy everything just in case it is treated as errata, if I know it is not being treated like errata, then I will not have to waste time homebrew copying everything.
No one has been told to 'stop asking questions'. Questions are welcome, as long as the person asking them is civil.
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
Again, respectfully, but that's not really true. It means an answer is not being provided for whatever reason - not necessarily that it can't be. Even if it is the case that it can't be, actually stating as much would be nice because until you do there is a perception you do have an answer but don't want us to know what it is. In fairness, that perception will continue even if you now do tell us that no, you can't give us an answer, but not having had that acknowledgment is the reason for that perception.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
In fairness, DDB have repeatedly said they can't give an answer yet.
The issue is the pre-order going live *before* an explanation being given as to how this will work. People will buy it when, potentially, they need not. This has not been made clear on the pre-order page. 'Regular Joes' who don't frequent forums, discord, etc, may end up wasting their hard earned money.
What do you mean by " if it's option two then that's in practice exactly what you want, and too bad for anyone who prefers differently"
I am proposing they allow users to use either new or old content. Win-Win for everyone. I don't understand why that's so polarizing? I understand that the current agreement might not allow for that, but it is completely within WotC's power to change the agreement to allow it.
What you said in the post I replied to is that you don't want the changes. If it's option two, you won't get the changes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
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Which, being extremely fair, we all knew this was the answer.
Just ******* say it.
Just communicate it.
That's it.
This is it right here. Lots of people play D&D, but they don’t really follow every bread crumb WoTC drops about products. Lots of people will say: New monster book! Sweet! And not interrogate it any further.
If you bought something you already own because it's a reprint that value gets deducted from the price for you. It's not so much that non-refundable aspect that's an issue, it's whether DDB (or WotC) will validate that ownership: if they say "nope, this is new stuff even if it's a rehash of old stuff so pay up" there's not much a customer who disagrees can do about it. I'm pretty sure a lot of us will consider it an update we should get for free (as far as the character builder is concerned, not the full source) yet a lot of others don't want it to be an update that will be forced upon them - so there's no possible way not to displease a significant number of customers - and WotC/DDB will still want to make money from the book. The licence certainly has a number of conditions and requirements that both parties should satisfy, but that doesn't mean they don't have some wriggle room to mutually agree some of them may not be applicable here.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
So. An update, from a very rare sojourn into the hostile wasteland that is the DDB Discord server, delivered straight from the mods there and the "In The Know" users over there:
The DDB dev team doesn't know squat, and they are not going to answer us. They don't want us asking questions, they don't like us starting threads like this, and none of us are supposed to express any sort of discontent, doubt, or irritation with this whole process. We are, instead, supposed to calmly preorder M3 like good customers and hand over our money sight unseen without one single complaint or concern, and also have our entire comment chain deleted because we dared to speak up.
Cool.
And to think I was legit thinking of nabbing Netherdeep a few days ago just for the shinies, even if I don't intend to run the adventure. Nuts to that shit. You get to earn your wallet cookies now, DDB. You wanna pull this shit with me, I'll go as Karen as I have to in order to prove my point.
This. Is. Scummy. It's bad business, and I don't ******* care if Wizards is telling you to do it. Tell them it's bad business and you won't do it to your customers or catch the same shit they're catching over it.
Please do not contact or message me.
Oh how the turn tables. This is exactly the issue I was arguing about in that long thread about the Forgotten Realms changes to lore. In that thread I suggested that those pages on DDB offer a link/button to see the pre-errata version, but all I got was being told I was bad, and what I suggested wasn't possible or even needed.
Now what do you y'all think! We bought the previous books with these monstrous races a certain way, and they are now retroactively being changed, changes that maybe everyone doesn't want. Well, that's what you get when you support retroactively changing anything.
These new race options should be just that... options. They should be Alternate versions only available if you buy the book. WotC and DDB should NOT be changing the books we paid for already unless it is in fact an error being changed.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
It's really not. Whatever happens, having both a pre- and post-errata version is not going to be it. Either it'll be treated as a rehash of older content, iow errata, and then the rehashed version will be the only one going forward, or it'll be treated as new content even if it's really a rehash of old content and then both will be available as separate entries next to each other, not with one or the other hidden behind a button.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
And what about DMs who don't like or want the new monster stats? What if we like them the way they are? Too bad for us, huh?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I'm going to address this specifically:
As for the discord being a 'hostile wasteland', as a member of the moderation team that devotes a lot of their time to both the forums and the discord, it is no more or less a hostile wasteland than the forums are. Make of that what you will, but I assure you that mods involved putting in a lot of work across all of D&D Beyonds community and social spaces making them as welcoming as possible. We are but human and can only do so much in the face of disruptive presences.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
If it's option one then yes, pretty much too bad for you. This isn't me gloating or rubbing your nose in it or anything, I derive no pleasure from other players being unhappy, I'm just telling you how it is. Incidentally, if it's option two then that's in practice exactly what you want, and too bad for anyone who prefers differently. There's always going to be people unhappy with how it turns out, and there'd be people unhappy if it were all nixed at the last minute too (which is certainly not going to happen).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Respectfully, Davyd, all else aside if questions remain unanswered and aren't even really acknowledged it doesn't feel like they're welcome.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There's a big fat blue banner bellowing "PREORDER NOW!!!" across the top of my screen every time I refresh a DDB tab putting the lie to "nobody is expected to pre-order or purchase anything", Davyd. I may not be legally required to buy M3, no - but y'all are pushing it as hard as you can on people who aren't aware they're very likely buying content they already own and blowing thirty dollars on nothing.
People have been asking questions, civilly and otherwise, for months and months. You all knew this was coming. You all knew these questions were being asked. This website has steadfastly refused to answer them, even after taking money for product the team is actively, deliberately refusing to define.
DDB had its chance to settle this issue calmly and civilly ahead of time, like gentlethem. DDB actively discarded that chance. You lot are your own business with your own obligations to people who give you money.
DDB doesn't like me getting my Karen on and being loudly, visibly angry here on the forums? DDB can stop treating me like an inflatable clown it slaps around every month or two when it decides it wants more cookies. Maybe, just maybe, somebody should be on the horn with Wizards saying "this isn't okay and we're catching hell for it, either do better or let us do better."
Please do not contact or message me.
What do you mean by " if it's option two then that's in practice exactly what you want, and too bad for anyone who prefers differently"
I am proposing they allow users to use either new or old content. Win-Win for everyone. I don't understand why that's so polarizing? I understand that the current agreement might not allow for that, but it is completely within WotC's power to change the agreement to allow it.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Questions may be welcome. The complaint though is answers have not been very forthcoming.
Whether intended or not silence in cases like this can seem like indifference or worse to those requesting more information.
The questions about how this book will be handled has been being asked for awhile now, and today we get an invitation to buy without any of those concerns having been addressed in a way that inspires confidence in WOTC and DDB’s customer base.
Rather than make a post about HOW we can ask questions, and what manner of queries are acceptable and unacceptable, could someone please use the same amount of characters to address the actual concerns?
I pay for this service here… not a Discord chat group. As. Customer I would hope you’d address all of us together in the Forum you have established for such and not make us look to other hosts to find out what is going on.
This is, for some of us, very frustrating.
That's sort of the cause for this thread. Everyone knew an individual release was coming.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
A lack of answer does not mean the questions are unwelcome. It means an answer cannot be provided at this time for whatever reason. That is all it means
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Technically no answer is not the same as answers can't be given. If DDB released a statement saying "We can't answer those questions at this time" then it would mean something.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
While I will probably pre-order the book eventually regardless of what happens (I like cosmetics), I would still want to know how Beyond is handling the new content, so I know what I am getting and can better prepare.
While I will probably homebrew copy everything just in case it is treated as errata, if I know it is not being treated like errata, then I will not have to waste time homebrew copying everything.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Again, respectfully, but that's not really true. It means an answer is not being provided for whatever reason - not necessarily that it can't be. Even if it is the case that it can't be, actually stating as much would be nice because until you do there is a perception you do have an answer but don't want us to know what it is. In fairness, that perception will continue even if you now do tell us that no, you can't give us an answer, but not having had that acknowledgment is the reason for that perception.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
In fairness, DDB have repeatedly said they can't give an answer yet.
The issue is the pre-order going live *before* an explanation being given as to how this will work. People will buy it when, potentially, they need not. This has not been made clear on the pre-order page. 'Regular Joes' who don't frequent forums, discord, etc, may end up wasting their hard earned money.
What you said in the post I replied to is that you don't want the changes. If it's option two, you won't get the changes.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].