While dnd has determined the lore to be insensitive, the "tracing style" comments are deliberately misleading to encourage offense.
Nah, it's not. The tracing style could be from either Minstrelry image or historic bards or a still of Chris Pine doing a jig, and then painting a monkey over it, it's indicative of a project rife with corner cutting if you take the Hadozee text on top of all the other problems with the Spelljammer as a whole. I don't believe anyone thinks D&D sat down and said, "Hey, you know what would be cool? Let's take the Hadozee and make it a racially offensive bit." The end product upon release was the result of sloppiness and complacent and/or crunch project management, the Hadozee is just the most egregious instance of the practice.
Anyone can look up 16th century minstrels and see the offensive work and the current one are pulled from the same innocent designs not the otherwise round. Of course a bard would be in a pose that represents dancing. That's what they do. But it's completely on the opposite side.
Holding an apple is a common thing for representing passion, carefree action and self sustainability. Meanwhile a floppy sandle represents very different concepts.
Now, what really stands out with this is that theres basically nothing here about wizards or potions or anything like that, just a race that proved itself and got in good with the elves.
Which means that someone somewhere wrote up that whole thing in 2022, didn't see how it could be interpreted and then an editor looked at that and said "this is fine."
Kind of puts WotC's new galaxy brain open minded tolerance into perspective.
Now, what really stands out with this is that theres basically nothing here about wizards or potions or anything like that, just a race that proved itself and got in good with the elves.
Which means that someone somewhere wrote up that whole thing in 2022, didn't see how it could be interpreted and then an editor looked at that and said "this is fine."
Kind of puts WotC's new galaxy brain open minded tolerance into perspective.
Yeah what it means is that they didn't think to use a sensitivity reader on this and that they need to do so with every project from now on. They made the commitment to have sensitivity readers, now they just need to implement better. This was a fail, but that doesn't mean they can't do better.
Oh and that 2E lore is also problematic, just in different ways. "Deck Apes" is awful, and the hadozee sucking up to a greatly superior race trope is gross.
Or just removed that bit completely, so the sentence reads like this:
Glide. When you fall at least 10 feet, you can use your reaction to extend your skin membranes to glide horizontally a number of feet equal to your walking speed, and you take 0 damage from the fall. You determine the direction of the glide.
“Above the ground” is really just fluff text anyways, not intended to be part of the mechanic.
Considering that the Hadozee is intended for use on a Spelljammer, they didn’t want it so you could glide if you fall over nothing.
Now, what really stands out with this is that theres basically nothing here about wizards or potions or anything like that, just a race that proved itself and got in good with the elves.
Which means that someone somewhere wrote up that whole thing in 2022, didn't see how it could be interpreted and then an editor looked at that and said "this is fine."
Kind of puts WotC's new galaxy brain open minded tolerance into perspective.
Yeah what it means is that they didn't think to use a sensitivity reader on this and that they need to do so with every project from now on. They made the commitment to have sensitivity readers, now they just need to implement better. This was a fail, but that doesn't mean they can't do better.
Oh and that 2E lore is also problematic, just in different ways. "Deck Apes" is awful, and the hadozee sucking up to a greatly superior race trope is gross.
The 2nd lore is fine when you consider that they're a race that clearly resemble apes and the Elves of spell jammer were one of the de-facto major powers and were well established long before the Hadozee were able to first leave their home planet.
But I also think you're kind of missing the point with my observation: this entire shift to "sensitivity" isn't genuine, it's a marketing ploy. They're jettisoning lore not because they see problems with it or because they agree with you're views or values but because they figure it's a way to sucker in a new crowd at the expense of the one that they already have.
Because yeah: the "wizard lore" would never have been a thing if that wasn't the case.
Anyone can look up 16th century minstrels and see the offensive work and the current one are pulled from the same innocent designs
... which means that the entire design and anything that evokes it is tainted by the legacy of racism and extra care must be taken even if the design is meant to be innocent.
it sounds like, You just said any (hypothetical or real) design (intended to be innocent art) piece is guilty not by its current state but by its historical/inspirational "genetics"
is that true or not true?
Please note your answers are being recorded for posterity sake and quality control purposes.
I am glad when moderation identifies Bad faith issues and cleans it up. They have a consistency of standards to uphold after all. I agree sensitive issues need to be addressed and care needs to be taken because both extremes are terrible places to be. The Roleplaying space is a welcoming space after all people should be allowed to use it for adventure and fun and should not be harried about things beyond their control.
But I also think you're kind of missing the point with my observation: this entire shift to "sensitivity" isn't genuine, it's a marketing ploy. They're jettisoning lore not because they see problems with it or because they agree with you're views or values but because they figure it's a way to sucker in a new crowd at the expense of the one that they already have.
Because yeah: the "wizard lore" would never have been a thing if that wasn't the case.
I feel there is a level of sincerity in the Diversity and Dragons statement, and true it's hard to discern sincerity when it comes from an organization instead of an individual, but it's also very difficult to tell if it's entirely insincere as well. So I would challenge you and say that neither of us can tell if it is sincere either way and thus we should not try and claim telepathic powers to be able to do so.
Furthermore, even if it is a marketing ploy to make more money by being seeming to be more open to diversity and inclusion ... good. That means that societal pressure is working and that they will have to put in at least a minimal amount of work to keep up the charade and to fix gaffes like this when they happen, and that amount of work is still better than what was happening before.
That minimal amount of work is going to get the feet of people of color and other multi-marginalized people in the door, in creative positions, in hiring decisions, etc. Upper management will be the last and toughest nut to crack, but we're working on it.
This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. One that is generations long. We have struggled for generations to get this far, and we will struggle for generations yet to go farther. We are not a completely egalitarian utopia yet, but the arc of history bends toward justice.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I feel there is a level of sincerity in the Diversity and Dragons statement, and true it's hard to discern sincerity when it comes from an organization instead of an individual, but it's also very difficult to tell if it's entirely insincere as well. So I would challenge you and say that neither of us can tell if it is sincere either way and thus we should not try and claim telepathic powers to be able to do so.
Furthermore, even if it is a marketing ploy to make more money by being seeming to be more open to diversity and inclusion ... good. That means that societal pressure is working and that they will have to put in at least a minimal amount of work to keep up the charade and to fix gaffes like this when they happen, and that amount of work is still better than what was happening before.
That minimal amount of work is going to get the feet of people of color and other multi-marginalized people in the door, in creative positions, in hiring decisions, etc. Upper management will be the last and toughest nut to crack, but we're working on it.
This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. One that is generations long. We have struggled for generations to get this far, and we will struggle for generations yet to go farther. We are not a completely egalitarian utopia yet, but the arc of history bends toward justice.
No, This is me calling it like it is. WotC decided ~for better or worse~ to jettison lore entirely for the benefit of newer players under the auspices of not offending anyone. I disagree with this move for a plethora of reasons but that is ultimately moot in the face of the reality in which it is happening and as such I'm going to judge WotC by their ability to hold themselves to this standard.
And quite frankly, I was actually of the mind that SJ was the perfect fit for this new philosophy because in the infinite cosmos of the prime material it stood to reason that you'd have iterations of every race that would fit every concievable archetype; Pious orcss, savage elves, arboreal dwarves, halfling pirates... all of it was possible and rational and with it being the first setting developed with this philosophy in mind it should have been so god damn easy if there was an ounce of sincerity to it.
But in a book that had so little lore with for the playable races they still somehow concocted something so much worse then what was present in 2nd edition where far fewer F's were given about tolerance. Hell they put together art and Hyped it up on youtube!
I don't get it racism exists, I don't support it and it is horrible but it is part of life throughout ALL of earth's history. I get that we want to remove it from society and that everyone that takes a step to do so in any way should be praised. But it does kinda bug me that they are apologizing for it being in there and blah blah.
EVERY culture and group throughout history has been persecuted or enslaved at some point. In a role-playing game set in fantasy realms... well, it just seemed to add more realism and immersion imo to the role-playing because it is something everyone across the globe has experienced in some way (maybe not first hand, but we have all experienced racism to a degree somehow).
I liked the lore of the Hadozee, not because of its racist background, but because it seemed plausable in the realm of fantasy, and Thad it gave a struggle of adversity, perseverance and accomplishment in freedom to the race in question. It gave the Hadozee more to work with (in a role-playing sense) than just flying monkeys that evolved on some jungle world.. this is why I am torn on how to feel about it: because I feel it gave more to them and their history and background, what their hopes are, the lessons they have learned in life and who they aspire to be as a race in the multiverse of DnD - rather than what they are officially now, which is.. plainly put, boring.
But at the same time, ANYTHING any one can do to push forward the notions that will help further our human civilisation instead of back stepping into violence and chaos and ignorance.. I am all for..
the only people who think everything that says "slave" is racists is a racist....no only the the usual white morality cult thought that.
Everything “slave” is not racist. However, the backstory of “civilised group took uncivilised monkeys and, in the process of making them slaves, made them better, more intelligent, and gave them a gift of civilisation they could take home to their uncivilised monkey brethren” is, quite literally a word for word recitation of arguments made to support racial-based slavery before the American Civil War and an after-the-War justification espoused by slavery apologists.
If they were just slaves, that would not necessarily be a problem - it is the regurgitation of the actual racist positions used to justify a very specific type of racial-based slavery which makes this problematic.
the only people who think everything that says "slave" is racists is a racist....no only the the usual white morality cult thought that.
Everything “slave” is not racist. However, the backstory of “civilised group took uncivilised monkeys and, in the process of making them slaves, made them better, more intelligent, and gave them a gift of civilisation they could take home to their uncivilised monkey brethren” is, quite literally a word for word recitation of arguments made to support racial-based slavery before the American Civil War and an after-the-War justification espoused by slavery apologists.
If they were just slaves, that would not necessarily be a problem - it is the regurgitation of the actual racist positions used to justify a very specific type of racial-based slavery which makes this problematic.
Okay so this puts a better perspective to their decision for me to understand. Do we know for sure this is what wizards was thinking when they did this though, or is it simply another wizards move to sell more to more people because of the "inclusiveness" stuff they are doing now that DnD is more popular than ever?
But yeah from that perspective it's pretty disgusting.. that's presuming that the original writers of the lore had that perspective to begin with. I sincerely doubt that they were regurgitating that concept, as opposed to just trying to be creative in creating a lore for a creature they made and likely hadn't even thought of it that deeply.
Nah, it's not. The tracing style could be from either Minstrelry image or historic bards or a still of Chris Pine doing a jig, and then painting a monkey over it, it's indicative of a project rife with corner cutting if you take the Hadozee text on top of all the other problems with the Spelljammer as a whole. I don't believe anyone thinks D&D sat down and said, "Hey, you know what would be cool? Let's take the Hadozee and make it a racially offensive bit." The end product upon release was the result of sloppiness and complacent and/or crunch project management, the Hadozee is just the most egregious instance of the practice.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Did anyone else notice the Hadozee can only glide “above the ground” and not above water or a building or something?
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They should have written “above a surface.”
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So for the lulz, me and a buddy looked up the 2e Hadozee entry on line and well, here it is:
http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstrousmanual/h/hadozee.html
Now, what really stands out with this is that theres basically nothing here about wizards or potions or anything like that, just a race that proved itself and got in good with the elves.
Which means that someone somewhere wrote up that whole thing in 2022, didn't see how it could be interpreted and then an editor looked at that and said "this is fine."
Kind of puts WotC's new galaxy brain open minded tolerance into perspective.
Yeah what it means is that they didn't think to use a sensitivity reader on this and that they need to do so with every project from now on. They made the commitment to have sensitivity readers, now they just need to implement better. This was a fail, but that doesn't mean they can't do better.
Oh and that 2E lore is also problematic, just in different ways. "Deck Apes" is awful, and the hadozee sucking up to a greatly superior race trope is gross.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Considering that the Hadozee is intended for use on a Spelljammer, they didn’t want it so you could glide if you fall over nothing.
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The 2nd lore is fine when you consider that they're a race that clearly resemble apes and the Elves of spell jammer were one of the de-facto major powers and were well established long before the Hadozee were able to first leave their home planet.
But I also think you're kind of missing the point with my observation: this entire shift to "sensitivity" isn't genuine, it's a marketing ploy. They're jettisoning lore not because they see problems with it or because they agree with you're views or values but because they figure it's a way to sucker in a new crowd at the expense of the one that they already have.
Because yeah: the "wizard lore" would never have been a thing if that wasn't the case.
it sounds like, You just said any (hypothetical or real) design (intended to be innocent art) piece is guilty not by its current state but by its historical/inspirational "genetics"
is that true or not true?
Please note your answers are being recorded for posterity sake and quality control purposes.
I am glad when moderation identifies Bad faith issues and cleans it up. They have a consistency of standards to uphold after all. I agree sensitive issues need to be addressed and care needs to be taken because both extremes are terrible places to be. The Roleplaying space is a welcoming space after all people should be allowed to use it for adventure and fun and should not be harried about things beyond their control.
You're mistaken.
I feel there is a level of sincerity in the Diversity and Dragons statement, and true it's hard to discern sincerity when it comes from an organization instead of an individual, but it's also very difficult to tell if it's entirely insincere as well. So I would challenge you and say that neither of us can tell if it is sincere either way and thus we should not try and claim telepathic powers to be able to do so.
Furthermore, even if it is a marketing ploy to make more money by being seeming to be more open to diversity and inclusion ... good. That means that societal pressure is working and that they will have to put in at least a minimal amount of work to keep up the charade and to fix gaffes like this when they happen, and that amount of work is still better than what was happening before.
That minimal amount of work is going to get the feet of people of color and other multi-marginalized people in the door, in creative positions, in hiring decisions, etc. Upper management will be the last and toughest nut to crack, but we're working on it.
This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. One that is generations long. We have struggled for generations to get this far, and we will struggle for generations yet to go farther. We are not a completely egalitarian utopia yet, but the arc of history bends toward justice.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm really not.
No, This is me calling it like it is. WotC decided ~for better or worse~ to jettison lore entirely for the benefit of newer players under the auspices of not offending anyone. I disagree with this move for a plethora of reasons but that is ultimately moot in the face of the reality in which it is happening and as such I'm going to judge WotC by their ability to hold themselves to this standard.
And quite frankly, I was actually of the mind that SJ was the perfect fit for this new philosophy because in the infinite cosmos of the prime material it stood to reason that you'd have iterations of every race that would fit every concievable archetype; Pious orcss, savage elves, arboreal dwarves, halfling pirates... all of it was possible and rational and with it being the first setting developed with this philosophy in mind it should have been so god damn easy if there was an ounce of sincerity to it.
But in a book that had so little lore with for the playable races they still somehow concocted something so much worse then what was present in 2nd edition where far fewer F's were given about tolerance. Hell they put together art and Hyped it up on youtube!
So no, I'm not giving them a pass on this.
I don't get it racism exists, I don't support it and it is horrible but it is part of life throughout ALL of earth's history. I get that we want to remove it from society and that everyone that takes a step to do so in any way should be praised. But it does kinda bug me that they are apologizing for it being in there and blah blah.
EVERY culture and group throughout history has been persecuted or enslaved at some point. In a role-playing game set in fantasy realms... well, it just seemed to add more realism and immersion imo to the role-playing because it is something everyone across the globe has experienced in some way (maybe not first hand, but we have all experienced racism to a degree somehow).
I liked the lore of the Hadozee, not because of its racist background, but because it seemed plausable in the realm of fantasy, and Thad it gave a struggle of adversity, perseverance and accomplishment in freedom to the race in question. It gave the Hadozee more to work with (in a role-playing sense) than just flying monkeys that evolved on some jungle world.. this is why I am torn on how to feel about it: because I feel it gave more to them and their history and background, what their hopes are, the lessons they have learned in life and who they aspire to be as a race in the multiverse of DnD - rather than what they are officially now, which is.. plainly put, boring.
But at the same time, ANYTHING any one can do to push forward the notions that will help further our human civilisation instead of back stepping into violence and chaos and ignorance.. I am all for..
Any body else feel this way??
Everything “slave” is not racist. However, the backstory of “civilised group took uncivilised monkeys and, in the process of making them slaves, made them better, more intelligent, and gave them a gift of civilisation they could take home to their uncivilised monkey brethren” is, quite literally a word for word recitation of arguments made to support racial-based slavery before the American Civil War and an after-the-War justification espoused by slavery apologists.
If they were just slaves, that would not necessarily be a problem - it is the regurgitation of the actual racist positions used to justify a very specific type of racial-based slavery which makes this problematic.
This is a thread about the Hadozee glide trait, not about racism or the changes to Hadozee lore. There are other threads for that.
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Then please share the link cause after the announcement I came here to read people's opinions and did not see one. So, link please..
Okay so this puts a better perspective to their decision for me to understand. Do we know for sure this is what wizards was thinking when they did this though, or is it simply another wizards move to sell more to more people because of the "inclusiveness" stuff they are doing now that DnD is more popular than ever?
But yeah from that perspective it's pretty disgusting.. that's presuming that the original writers of the lore had that perspective to begin with. I sincerely doubt that they were regurgitating that concept, as opposed to just trying to be creative in creating a lore for a creature they made and likely hadn't even thought of it that deeply.
But i guess that's why we call it progression.