Yo! so jumping right into the point of the post in the Dungeon Dudes new video they asked jeremy about old subclasses and he basically says if the you cant use any older subclasses if they are in the book that you have to use the changed ones (8:26)
Wtf? i thought this whole thing was backwards compatible for all subclasses and classes now theres subclass rules saying you cant use older ones if they are in the new book? dont quote me on this but im pretty sure iv even seen videos of him saying the exact opposite. if thats an offical ruling it can make problems bc DMs will have "RAW" power to say no to you using an old subclass say oath of ancients from the 2014 phb.
For those that will say "yada yada you can just ask your DM" thats not the point im trying to make.
Haven't watched it yet. But I've liked what I've seen from the Dungeon Dudes so far and will probably edit in some things once I've taken that time. It's also a shorter video than some of their other content.
Haven't watched it yet. But I've liked what I've seen from the Dungeon Dudes so far and will probably edit in some things once I've taken that time. It's also a shorter video than some of their other content.
thank you i was going to do that but got busy lol also yes i do love their channel
Well, I don't see how they'll enforce that. The Evoker is in the new PHB, so you're going to be arrested if you insert the old Subclass features in? Like, if the new Wizard is compatible with old Subclasses...how are you not going to be able to use old specific old Subclasses? Maybe it won't work on DDB...but that would be annoying, but otherwise I don't see how that functions.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is part of a cycle of content-creator micro-interviews that dropped today. I'm updating the content creator index thread with links to all of them!
The only thing I can see is if he means it in the "why wouldn't you use the updated version?" sense
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I agree with linklite, there's exactly nothing stopping you from doing it how you like. Maybe there will be a hiccup on the character builder here, and that would be a drag, but otherwise, I'm not sure where the problem is. (We played this game with a pencil and sheet of notebook paper for decades, using editions where the math was way more fiddly. Something not working here should not be a barrier.) And he even specifically says you can use a '14 subclass with a '24 base class, which is something lots of people have been worried about.
The only other thing I could think he would mean (as far as, the '24 version replaces the older stuff) is for general design purposes going forward, the team will assume use of the '24 version when its available, and the '14 when its not. They need to have some kind of baseline when they do their internal playtests.
Yo! so jumping right into the point of the post in the Dungeon Dudes new video they asked jeremy about old subclasses and he basically says if the you cant use any older subclasses if they are in the book that you have to use the changed ones (8:26)
Wtf? i thought this whole thing was backwards compatible for all subclasses and classes now theres subclass rules saying you cant use older ones if they are in the new book? dont quote me on this but im pretty sure iv even seen videos of him saying the exact opposite. if thats an offical ruling it can make problems bc DMs will have "RAW" power to say no to you using an old subclass say oath of ancients from the 2014 phb.
For those that will say "yada yada you can just ask your DM" thats not the point im trying to make.
Look, obviously they have to provide an official stance on what their intent is; if they created a new Ancients Paladin their intent is that you use that one and not the old one, just like if they had issued errata for it. But they're not actually going to send the Pinkertons to your house if your DM is okay with you using the 2014 Ancients Paladin at your table.
And presumably, their official intent will be binding for things like Adventurer's League that they sanction. But your home game can, as always, do whatever your DM wants it to do.
Yo! so jumping right into the point of the post in the Dungeon Dudes new video they asked jeremy about old subclasses and he basically says if the you cant use any older subclasses if they are in the book that you have to use the changed ones (8:26)
Wtf? i thought this whole thing was backwards compatible for all subclasses and classes now theres subclass rules saying you cant use older ones if they are in the new book? dont quote me on this but im pretty sure iv even seen videos of him saying the exact opposite. if thats an offical ruling it can make problems bc DMs will have "RAW" power to say no to you using an old subclass say oath of ancients from the 2014 phb.
For those that will say "yada yada you can just ask your DM" thats not the point im trying to make.
Look, obviously they have to provide an official stance on what their intent is; if they created a new Ancients Paladin their intent is that you use that one and not the old one, just like if they had issued errata for it. But they're not actually going to send the Pinkertons to your house if your DM is okay with you using the 2014 Ancients Paladin at your table.
And presumably, their official intent will be binding for things like Adventurer's League that they sanction. But your home game can, as always, do whatever your DM wants it to do.
1. idk what Adventurers League is tbh i asked someone about it and they basically said it was competitive DnD
2. the ruling maybe there for AL but its still something a DM has grounds to stand on (besides the fact its their table and they can do whatever they want anyways
3. im just getting annoyed with the whole "backwards compatibility" stuff so many back and forths from so many places
They can only balance future content by whatever the current classes' rulesets are when they're doing it. They can't take into consideration every previous iteration of classes and their rules. Do we expect to be able to pull a 2nd Edition Skald in to a 5th Edition game and seeing a ruleset in the DM's Guide so his AC of 0 and THAC0 are now compatible with current AC and attack modifier mechanics? Of course not.
But it's not like there's a TTRPG Police Squad that's going to be checking up on us and knocking down our doors if we're not using the "approved" content. So don't worry about it.
1. idk what Adventurers League is tbh i asked someone about it and they basically said it was competitive DnD
2. the ruling maybe there for AL but its still something a DM has grounds to stand on (besides the fact its their table and they can do whatever they want anyways
3. im just getting annoyed with the whole "backwards compatibility" stuff so many back and forths from so many places
1) It's not "competitive D&D" (outside of houserules there's no such thing, it's a cooperative game); rather, AL is sanctioned play like what you would play at a convention, game store etc with a bunch of strangers following a more standardized ruleset.
2) Yes, that's what I said. Your DM can do whatever they want, just like before.
3) There is no "back and forth," they've been consistent about what that meant. There was never a promise that if 2024 updated something directly that they wouldn't expect you to use the updated version.
Yo! so jumping right into the point of the post in the Dungeon Dudes new video they asked jeremy about old subclasses and he basically says if the you cant use any older subclasses if they are in the book that you have to use the changed ones (8:26)
Wtf? i thought this whole thing was backwards compatible for all subclasses and classes now theres subclass rules saying you cant use older ones if they are in the new book? dont quote me on this but im pretty sure iv even seen videos of him saying the exact opposite. if thats an offical ruling it can make problems bc DMs will have "RAW" power to say no to you using an old subclass say oath of ancients from the 2014 phb.
For those that will say "yada yada you can just ask your DM" thats not the point im trying to make.
I'm reading "can" as more "will be able to" rather than "are permitted to." That's to say, the 2024 class rules are set up in such a way to use the new subclasses and work with other old ones that haven't been updated, but not with the old subclasses that have been updated. Nothing's technically stopping you from using an old subclass instead of the updated version, but the PHB won't particularly support that because it's based around these new ones. That's my read anyway.
Having an “official” stance on questions like this is helpful for DMs, as it lets them narrow down the range of possibilities they have to contend with. In theory, a subclass which is in both the 2014 and 2024 PHBs could be built four ways: with either the 2014 or 2024 base class and either 2014 or 2024 subclass. It’s easier for the DM to manage if they can limit the options. (If they’re fine with any combination, though, more power to them.)
Taking it to absurdity, Tasha’s gave revised options for both the basic Ranger and the Beastmaster subclass, so there are effectively three versions of both the class and the subclass, giving nine potential combinations…
Specifically in this video he said "... anything not in it (New Rules) you can still use with it... if it is in the book the new version of the thing replaces the old version ..."
So basically if you have say the New Ranger or paladin, but don't like something about the new version, too bad you have to adapt to the new rules, meanwhile say an Artificer will be ignored until the new Eberron book in whenever.
But it goes deep, since some classes got hit with big boosts, and others like the Ranger got reworked and lost their class fantasy, too bad RAW your ranger is now a meh wizzard with a pet and a bow, and not a woods stalking hunter. And I hope your paladin likes horses... because guess what.
Generally I love the 2024 edition, but I feel a few of the changes will fall flat. And as a DM if someone wants to play a 2014 ranger or paladin I'll let them.
I think its perfectly understandable that they intend for you to use the newest version of a class or a feature. That said, I do think making an entirely new edition would have been a lot less messy. I cant even imagine how it might be for someone to pick up 5e in 2 years and not have any idea that a lot of the subclasses they read about are following an outdated version of the rules. It probably seems like a simple task for those of us already well-versed in the system, but the last thing you need when learning a new system, is outdated information not clearly labeled as such.
I remember when some friends and I were playing cyberpunk (this was before the newest version) and being very confused with the conflicting answers we would find.
Depending on how they treat(retire) the 2014 rules will be a huge deal in how the non-updated subclasses and new rule set will be used/recieved at common tables. If the 2014 rules are immediately unobtanium, then it will create a new de facto edition not the wotc despised .5 edition, but a full 6e in my opinion (the loss of piecemeal does put a shadow on the "compatibility" of the rule sets). Wotc can call it what they will and even implement ways to "force" acceptance of the new rules, but they do not have the capacity to force their will on anyone, unless they stop printing physical books. It is their IP to stagnate or let thrive.
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CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
So does it sound like we’ll still be able to build 5e characters on DnD Beyond after the new material comes out?
From unofficial statements? Yes. If you have the original PHB, then you can use the materials from it. One of the staff/moderators (can't remember what border they had) said they'd tried the system out and built on old character.
There are a few points worth noting. Firstly, the statements have been unofficial. That means that they have no guarantee whatsoever of being honoured - if the company changes their mind, then they're not bound by those statements, because the company never said them. Secondly, we don't know if the original PHB will be on sale, so if you don't have it by 3rd September, then there's no guarantee that you can get it afterwards. There's been no word on that as far as I've seen.
If you're referring to this comment, I was not referring to D&D Beyond when I built it. I've been making builds in the Obsidian notes app since last year and updating as I received new information. Note, though, that the moderators have received an early copy as well.
However, Jeremy Crawford in recent interviews with content creators (not Todd) noted that his team worked in consultation with the folks who work on D&D Beyond during the design process.
We (the mods) do not currently have any specific details on how the integration and interoperability of 2014 and 2024 options on D&D Beyond will work at this time.
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How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Yo! so jumping right into the point of the post in the Dungeon Dudes new video they asked jeremy about old subclasses and he basically says if the you cant use any older subclasses if they are in the book that you have to use the changed ones (8:26)
Wtf? i thought this whole thing was backwards compatible for all subclasses and classes now theres subclass rules saying you cant use older ones if they are in the new book? dont quote me on this but im pretty sure iv even seen videos of him saying the exact opposite. if thats an offical ruling it can make problems bc DMs will have "RAW" power to say no to you using an old subclass say oath of ancients from the 2014 phb.
For those that will say "yada yada you can just ask your DM" thats not the point im trying to make.
I wonder how many will want to use the 2024 rules and classes and not use the new subclasses?
Nothing is really stopping you from using the old subclasses that are also in the new PHB.
Subclasses not in the PHB you can still use, at least from this video, and also heard from other YouTubers that have the PHB say there is advice on those that originally came on at level 1 or 2.
And why would they advocate using an old subclass that they just updated?
Edit: I doubt you will be able to, in the DDB character builder, be able to put a 2014 subclass on a 2024 class. But should still be able to build a 2014 class/subclass if you have the 2014 books.
It would be nice if you could build a Wildfire Druid on the 2024 Druid in the character builder but I don’t know if they will have option.
So does it sound like we’ll still be able to build 5e characters on DnD Beyond after the new material comes out?
From unofficial statements? Yes. If you have the original PHB, then you can use the materials from it. One of the staff/moderators (can't remember what border they had) said they'd tried the system out and built on old character.
There are a few points worth noting. Firstly, the statements have been unofficial. That means that they have no guarantee whatsoever of being honoured - if the company changes their mind, then they're not bound by those statements, because the company never said them. Secondly, we don't know if the original PHB will be on sale, so if you don't have it by 3rd September, then there's no guarantee that you can get it afterwards. There's been no word on that as far as I've seen.
If you're referring to this comment, I was not referring to D&D Beyond when I built it. I've been making builds in the Obsidian notes app since last year and updating as I received new information. Note, though, that the moderators have received an early copy as well.
However, Jeremy Crawford in recent interviews with content creators (not Todd) noted that his team worked in consultation with the folks who work on D&D Beyond during the design process.
We (the mods) do not currently have any specific details on how the integration and interoperability of 2014 and 2024 options on D&D Beyond will work at this time.
Ah ok, I misconstrued what you'd said. Fair enough - I'm editing my original comment to not be misleading.
ETA: There wasn't anything worth preserving, so I've deleted it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
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Yo! so jumping right into the point of the post in the Dungeon Dudes new video they asked jeremy about old subclasses and he basically says if the you cant use any older subclasses if they are in the book that you have to use the changed ones (8:26)
Wtf? i thought this whole thing was backwards compatible for all subclasses and classes now theres subclass rules saying you cant use older ones if they are in the new book? dont quote me on this but im pretty sure iv even seen videos of him saying the exact opposite. if thats an offical ruling it can make problems bc DMs will have "RAW" power to say no to you using an old subclass say oath of ancients from the 2014 phb.
For those that will say "yada yada you can just ask your DM" thats not the point im trying to make.
The video for others.
Haven't watched it yet. But I've liked what I've seen from the Dungeon Dudes so far and will probably edit in some things once I've taken that time. It's also a shorter video than some of their other content.
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thank you i was going to do that but got busy lol also yes i do love their channel
Well, I don't see how they'll enforce that. The Evoker is in the new PHB, so you're going to be arrested if you insert the old Subclass features in? Like, if the new Wizard is compatible with old Subclasses...how are you not going to be able to use old specific old Subclasses? Maybe it won't work on DDB...but that would be annoying, but otherwise I don't see how that functions.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is part of a cycle of content-creator micro-interviews that dropped today. I'm updating the content creator index thread with links to all of them!
The only thing I can see is if he means it in the "why wouldn't you use the updated version?" sense
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I agree with linklite, there's exactly nothing stopping you from doing it how you like. Maybe there will be a hiccup on the character builder here, and that would be a drag, but otherwise, I'm not sure where the problem is. (We played this game with a pencil and sheet of notebook paper for decades, using editions where the math was way more fiddly. Something not working here should not be a barrier.) And he even specifically says you can use a '14 subclass with a '24 base class, which is something lots of people have been worried about.
The only other thing I could think he would mean (as far as, the '24 version replaces the older stuff) is for general design purposes going forward, the team will assume use of the '24 version when its available, and the '14 when its not. They need to have some kind of baseline when they do their internal playtests.
Look, obviously they have to provide an official stance on what their intent is; if they created a new Ancients Paladin their intent is that you use that one and not the old one, just like if they had issued errata for it. But they're not actually going to send the Pinkertons to your house if your DM is okay with you using the 2014 Ancients Paladin at your table.
And presumably, their official intent will be binding for things like Adventurer's League that they sanction. But your home game can, as always, do whatever your DM wants it to do.
1. idk what Adventurers League is tbh i asked someone about it and they basically said it was competitive DnD
2. the ruling maybe there for AL but its still something a DM has grounds to stand on (besides the fact its their table and they can do whatever they want anyways
3. im just getting annoyed with the whole "backwards compatibility" stuff so many back and forths from so many places
They can only balance future content by whatever the current classes' rulesets are when they're doing it. They can't take into consideration every previous iteration of classes and their rules. Do we expect to be able to pull a 2nd Edition Skald in to a 5th Edition game and seeing a ruleset in the DM's Guide so his AC of 0 and THAC0 are now compatible with current AC and attack modifier mechanics? Of course not.
But it's not like there's a TTRPG Police Squad that's going to be checking up on us and knocking down our doors if we're not using the "approved" content. So don't worry about it.
1) It's not "competitive D&D" (outside of houserules there's no such thing, it's a cooperative game); rather, AL is sanctioned play like what you would play at a convention, game store etc with a bunch of strangers following a more standardized ruleset.
2) Yes, that's what I said. Your DM can do whatever they want, just like before.
3) There is no "back and forth," they've been consistent about what that meant. There was never a promise that if 2024 updated something directly that they wouldn't expect you to use the updated version.
I'm reading "can" as more "will be able to" rather than "are permitted to." That's to say, the 2024 class rules are set up in such a way to use the new subclasses and work with other old ones that haven't been updated, but not with the old subclasses that have been updated. Nothing's technically stopping you from using an old subclass instead of the updated version, but the PHB won't particularly support that because it's based around these new ones. That's my read anyway.
Having an “official” stance on questions like this is helpful for DMs, as it lets them narrow down the range of possibilities they have to contend with. In theory, a subclass which is in both the 2014 and 2024 PHBs could be built four ways: with either the 2014 or 2024 base class and either 2014 or 2024 subclass. It’s easier for the DM to manage if they can limit the options. (If they’re fine with any combination, though, more power to them.)
Taking it to absurdity, Tasha’s gave revised options for both the basic Ranger and the Beastmaster subclass, so there are effectively three versions of both the class and the subclass, giving nine potential combinations…
Specifically in this video he said "... anything not in it (New Rules) you can still use with it... if it is in the book the new version of the thing replaces the old version ..."
So basically if you have say the New Ranger or paladin, but don't like something about the new version, too bad you have to adapt to the new rules, meanwhile say an Artificer will be ignored until the new Eberron book in whenever.
But it goes deep, since some classes got hit with big boosts, and others like the Ranger got reworked and lost their class fantasy, too bad RAW your ranger is now a meh wizzard with a pet and a bow, and not a woods stalking hunter. And I hope your paladin likes horses... because guess what.
Generally I love the 2024 edition, but I feel a few of the changes will fall flat. And as a DM if someone wants to play a 2014 ranger or paladin I'll let them.
I think its perfectly understandable that they intend for you to use the newest version of a class or a feature. That said, I do think making an entirely new edition would have been a lot less messy. I cant even imagine how it might be for someone to pick up 5e in 2 years and not have any idea that a lot of the subclasses they read about are following an outdated version of the rules.
It probably seems like a simple task for those of us already well-versed in the system, but the last thing you need when learning a new system, is outdated information not clearly labeled as such.
I remember when some friends and I were playing cyberpunk (this was before the newest version) and being very confused with the conflicting answers we would find.
Depending on how they treat(retire) the 2014 rules will be a huge deal in how the non-updated subclasses and new rule set will be used/recieved at common tables. If the 2014 rules are immediately unobtanium, then it will create a new de facto edition not the wotc despised .5 edition, but a full 6e in my opinion (the loss of piecemeal does put a shadow on the "compatibility" of the rule sets). Wotc can call it what they will and even implement ways to "force" acceptance of the new rules, but they do not have the capacity to force their will on anyone, unless they stop printing physical books. It is their IP to stagnate or let thrive.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
So does it sound like we’ll still be able to build 5e characters on DnD Beyond after the new material comes out?
If you're referring to this comment, I was not referring to D&D Beyond when I built it. I've been making builds in the Obsidian notes app since last year and updating as I received new information. Note, though, that the moderators have received an early copy as well.
However, Jeremy Crawford in recent interviews with content creators (not Todd) noted that his team worked in consultation with the folks who work on D&D Beyond during the design process.
We (the mods) do not currently have any specific details on how the integration and interoperability of 2014 and 2024 options on D&D Beyond will work at this time.
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I wonder how many will want to use the 2024 rules and classes and not use the new subclasses?
Nothing is really stopping you from using the old subclasses that are also in the new PHB.
Subclasses not in the PHB you can still use, at least from this video, and also heard from other YouTubers that have the PHB say there is advice on those that originally came on at level 1 or 2.
And why would they advocate using an old subclass that they just updated?
Edit: I doubt you will be able to, in the DDB character builder, be able to put a 2014 subclass on a 2024 class. But should still be able to build a 2014 class/subclass if you have the 2014 books.
It would be nice if you could build a Wildfire Druid on the 2024 Druid in the character builder but I don’t know if they will have option.
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Ah ok, I misconstrued what you'd said. Fair enough - I'm editing my original comment to not be misleading.
ETA: There wasn't anything worth preserving, so I've deleted it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.