I suspect that capstone abilities are almost entirely irrelevant to the vast majority of play taking place at most tables. Discussing them is fun but is not constructive when talking about actual play experiences the class is delivering.
Part of the problem is a disconnect between expectation and reality, I see this with Warlocks as well. Both are classes that do not benefit from lazy playing or poor dynamic resource management.
The wizard's spell mastery would be a great capstone for the sorcerer it would allow you to munch your 1-3rd lvl slots for sorcery points and then use them to power metamagic on your lower level spells
I suspect that capstone abilities are almost entirely irrelevant to the vast majority of play taking place at most tables. Discussing them is fun but is not constructive when talking about actual play experiences the class is delivering.
Part of the problem is a disconnect between expectation and reality, I see this with Warlocks as well. Both are classes that do not benefit from lazy playing or poor dynamic resource management.
True, but would a “Sorcerous Recovery” that allowed the Sorcerer to regain, say, 25% of their Sorcery Points back on a short rest 1ce/day make Sorcerers OP? Certainly not. That’s a max regen of 1SP @4th level, and 5SP @20th. How about a higher level ability where they could hold their action and use their Metamagic to help another caster? Not OP, but definitely cool and useful.
Would 1 extra spell slot/Long Rest for the Warlock break the game? I doubt it. Heck, give them a second at 10th level and an extra Cantrip at 1st and we might have just fixed the class. I’d also add a second 6th level Mystic Acanum at 18th level too.
The wizard's spell mastery would be a great capstone for the sorcerer it would allow you to munch your 1-3rd lvl slots for sorcery points and then use them to power metamagic on your lower level spells
The wizard's spell mastery would be a great capstone for the sorcerer it would allow you to munch your 1-3rd lvl slots for sorcery points and then use them to power metamagic on your lower level spells
I think between us we just fixed the Sorcerer.
So...changing an ability virtually no one uses, or ever will use, at a table fixes a class? This tends to support the idea that there is nothing wrong with the class to begin with.
The wizard's spell mastery would be a great capstone for the sorcerer it would allow you to munch your 1-3rd lvl slots for sorcery points and then use them to power metamagic on your lower level spells
I think between us we just fixed the Sorcerer.
So...changing an ability virtually no one uses, or ever will use, at a table fixes a class? This tends to support the idea that there is nothing wrong with the class to begin with.
are you really saying 1st-3rd lvls spells aren't usable at high levels? Honestly thematically speaking spell mastery does not even make sense for the wizard spam casting is supposed to be a spontaneous caster stick not a prepared one. This change blows open all the sorcerer's metamagic options with roughly double the sorcery points at a point in their career where every other class is getting really powerful abilities. At this point in the game the sorcerer stops learning new spells and get zero class features. They need something powerful otherwise why would anyone play a sorcerer to 20?
The wizard's spell mastery would be a great capstone for the sorcerer it would allow you to munch your 1-3rd lvl slots for sorcery points and then use them to power metamagic on your lower level spells
I think between us we just fixed the Sorcerer.
So...changing an ability virtually no one uses, or ever will use, at a table fixes a class? This tends to support the idea that there is nothing wrong with the class to begin with.
What do you mean?!? Letting the Sorcerer pick the 1st and 2nd level spells they actually use such as Absorb Elements or Shield, and Misty Step, or Mirror Image and letting them cast those for free. Then they could convert all of their unused 1st and 2nd level slots to Sorcery Points would be a huge boon.
That’s 17 sorcery points if you cash in all your 1st and 2nd level slots. That almost doubles your sorcery points at 18th level. It also still lets you cast some of the most useful low-level spells for free....
To help the early levels add in something like:
“Starting at Xth level, you have learned to recharge your powers while you rest. Whenever you take a short rest you can regain a number of Sorcery Points equal to your Charisma modifier. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a long rest. Beginning at Yth level you may use this feature a second time”
You pick X and Y and tell me that doesn’t go another long way toward fixing the lower level play.
My thoughts are, you are wrong. Sorcerers are one of my favorite classes. it does everything I want it to do, and doesn't have hassles that I don't want to deal with.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I already did. I said it does everything I want it to do, with no wizard baggage. Therefore, sorcerers do not suck.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Wild Magic, weak, how often do you actually use the Wild Magic table? How often is the result useless/detrimental?
The Strength of WIld Magic Sorc is not the table (which is fun) or even Tides of Chaos (which is great). It's Bend Luck, an S-tier ability.
This advantage is for one subclass only but it underscores one of the core differences between the base classes: the ability of Sorcerers to increase the potency of their magic.
Some in this thread dismiss Sorcerers as only better at blasting than wizards, and they can be via Empower/Quicken/Twin & Careful Spell. However they can also be better Buffers with Twin/Extended & Distant Spell. And they can be better Debuffers via Twin & Heightened Spell. Subtle Spell let's your magic take effect in stealth and social situations where Wizards are shackled by their components. Quicken Spell can emulate the action economy of Cunning Action, Patient Defense and Fast Hands. Sorcerer's don't get all those advantages, but they can choose which ones to focus on (not even touching subclass). And they don't get the chosen advantage(s) on all spells or even all in all encounters but again they can choose when and where they want to leverage them. Finally they have proficiency in Constitution saves: another major strength that reinforces the idea that their spells are more potent than those of other casters.
The breadth of spell list vs the potency of the magic is simply the old jack of all trades debate. Considering how that debate is usually framed (depth > breadth) I'm a little surprised that in 2+ pages we only saw one side of this argument.
That’s why I don’t think we need to expand the “breadth” of what they do, just give them an opportunity to exercise the “depth” a little more by giving them a modest boost to their Sorcery Points so they can do all the same stuff they already do, just a little bit more of it.
If your only doing 1 or 2 encounters a day you may not realize there is a problem. However, if you play based on the 5+ encounters per day that is built into how the rest mechanics work then you will see how the sorcerer gets shafted. They have no short rest recoverable resources spells slots nor sorcery points. They are supposed to be able to cast the most per day as the trade off for knowing less spells and having very limited access to metamagic. Wizards start with more spell slots via arcane recovery and eventually get unlimited low level spell slots via spell mastery but there isn't anything like that on the sorcerer.
I don't think anybody disagrees with that, 1stsonofkrynn.
The question is just how much of a boost is needed and what kind of boost.
My comment about not seeing the problem had to do with the solution of trading hit points for sorcery points.
trading hit points for sorcery points is too easy to abuse especially on something like a divine soul. Maybe something involving the expenditure of hit dice?
I don't think anybody disagrees with that, 1stsonofkrynn.
The question is just how much of a boost is needed and what kind of boost.
My comment about not seeing the problem had to do with the solution of trading hit points for sorcery points.
trading hit points for sorcery points is too easy to abuse especially on something like a divine soul. Maybe something involving the expenditure of hit dice?
That was my thought too, But that could be up to 20d6 Sorcery Points. Even more of they Multiclass, and depending on how early you let them do it, it just makes Sorcerer’s even more prone to Cha Caster mashup shenanigans. And the Divine Soul could still abuse it all by themselves, since they don’t need those HD as much.
That’s why I settled on =Cha Mod on a SR 1X/LR levels 1-8 I guess, and 2X/LR levels 9+. I think adding your solution of Spell Mastery (to replace Sorcerous Restoration maybe?) at a higher level would probably make it so instead of the majority of players going Sorsomethingelse, they might just take it to Sorcerer 20.
I think the trading hit points/dice for sorcery points shouldn't be in the core sorcerer, more of a subclass, possibly related to Undead creatures, but that's just my 2 cents.
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Not the whole class, but it would help a lot, as long as it is good enough. They'd also have to get a new capstone ability, and more unique spells.
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What would you pick for the capstone?
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I suspect that capstone abilities are almost entirely irrelevant to the vast majority of play taking place at most tables. Discussing them is fun but is not constructive when talking about actual play experiences the class is delivering.
Part of the problem is a disconnect between expectation and reality, I see this with Warlocks as well. Both are classes that do not benefit from lazy playing or poor dynamic resource management.
Abide.
The wizard's spell mastery would be a great capstone for the sorcerer it would allow you to munch your 1-3rd lvl slots for sorcery points and then use them to power metamagic on your lower level spells
True, but would a “Sorcerous Recovery” that allowed the Sorcerer to regain, say, 25% of their Sorcery Points back on a short rest 1ce/day make Sorcerers OP? Certainly not. That’s a max regen of 1SP @4th level, and 5SP @20th. How about a higher level ability where they could hold their action and use their Metamagic to help another caster? Not OP, but definitely cool and useful.
Would 1 extra spell slot/Long Rest for the Warlock break the game? I doubt it. Heck, give them a second at 10th level and an extra Cantrip at 1st and we might have just fixed the class. I’d also add a second 6th level Mystic Acanum at 18th level too.
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I think between us we just fixed the Sorcerer.
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So...changing an ability virtually no one uses, or ever will use, at a table fixes a class? This tends to support the idea that there is nothing wrong with the class to begin with.
Abide.
are you really saying 1st-3rd lvls spells aren't usable at high levels? Honestly thematically speaking spell mastery does not even make sense for the wizard spam casting is supposed to be a spontaneous caster stick not a prepared one. This change blows open all the sorcerer's metamagic options with roughly double the sorcery points at a point in their career where every other class is getting really powerful abilities. At this point in the game the sorcerer stops learning new spells and get zero class features. They need something powerful otherwise why would anyone play a sorcerer to 20?
What do you mean?!? Letting the Sorcerer pick the 1st and 2nd level spells they actually use such as Absorb Elements or Shield, and Misty Step, or Mirror Image and letting them cast those for free. Then they could convert all of their unused 1st and 2nd level slots to Sorcery Points would be a huge boon.
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That’s 17 sorcery points if you cash in all your 1st and 2nd level slots. That almost doubles your sorcery points at 18th level. It also still lets you cast some of the most useful low-level spells for free....
To help the early levels add in something like:
“Starting at Xth level, you have learned to recharge your powers while you rest. Whenever you take a short rest you can regain a number of Sorcery Points equal to your Charisma modifier. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a long rest.
Beginning at Yth level you may use this feature a second time”
You pick X and Y and tell me that doesn’t go another long way toward fixing the lower level play.
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My thoughts are, you are wrong. Sorcerers are one of my favorite classes. it does everything I want it to do, and doesn't have hassles that I don't want to deal with.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Anyway to support your claim?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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I already did. I said it does everything I want it to do, with no wizard baggage. Therefore, sorcerers do not suck.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The Strength of WIld Magic Sorc is not the table (which is fun) or even Tides of Chaos (which is great). It's Bend Luck, an S-tier ability.
This advantage is for one subclass only but it underscores one of the core differences between the base classes: the ability of Sorcerers to increase the potency of their magic.
Some in this thread dismiss Sorcerers as only better at blasting than wizards, and they can be via Empower/Quicken/Twin & Careful Spell. However they can also be better Buffers with Twin/Extended & Distant Spell. And they can be better Debuffers via Twin & Heightened Spell. Subtle Spell let's your magic take effect in stealth and social situations where Wizards are shackled by their components. Quicken Spell can emulate the action economy of Cunning Action, Patient Defense and Fast Hands. Sorcerer's don't get all those advantages, but they can choose which ones to focus on (not even touching subclass). And they don't get the chosen advantage(s) on all spells or even all in all encounters but again they can choose when and where they want to leverage them. Finally they have proficiency in Constitution saves: another major strength that reinforces the idea that their spells are more potent than those of other casters.
The breadth of spell list vs the potency of the magic is simply the old jack of all trades debate. Considering how that debate is usually framed (depth > breadth) I'm a little surprised that in 2+ pages we only saw one side of this argument.
That’s why I don’t think we need to expand the “breadth” of what they do, just give them an opportunity to exercise the “depth” a little more by giving them a modest boost to their Sorcery Points so they can do all the same stuff they already do, just a little bit more of it.
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With a d6 hit die?!? Do you want them to survive the fight too?
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If your only doing 1 or 2 encounters a day you may not realize there is a problem. However, if you play based on the 5+ encounters per day that is built into how the rest mechanics work then you will see how the sorcerer gets shafted. They have no short rest recoverable resources spells slots nor sorcery points. They are supposed to be able to cast the most per day as the trade off for knowing less spells and having very limited access to metamagic. Wizards start with more spell slots via arcane recovery and eventually get unlimited low level spell slots via spell mastery but there isn't anything like that on the sorcerer.
trading hit points for sorcery points is too easy to abuse especially on something like a divine soul. Maybe something involving the expenditure of hit dice?
That was my thought too, But that could be up to 20d6 Sorcery Points. Even more of they Multiclass, and depending on how early you let them do it, it just makes Sorcerer’s even more prone to Cha Caster mashup shenanigans. And the Divine Soul could still abuse it all by themselves, since they don’t need those HD as much.
That’s why I settled on =Cha Mod on a SR 1X/LR levels 1-8 I guess, and 2X/LR levels 9+. I think adding your solution of Spell Mastery (to replace Sorcerous Restoration maybe?) at a higher level would probably make it so instead of the majority of players going Sorsomethingelse, they might just take it to Sorcerer 20.
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I think the trading hit points/dice for sorcery points shouldn't be in the core sorcerer, more of a subclass, possibly related to Undead creatures, but that's just my 2 cents.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms