Agreed, that’s why I propose the following adjustments:
Sorcerous Recovery
At 3rd level, you have learned to regain some of your magical energy by focusing inward. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can rEgan a number of spent sorcery points equal to or less than one third your sorcerer level (rounded up).
For example, if you’re a 4th-level sorcerer, you can recover up to 2 sorcery points, if you’re a 19th-level sorcerer, you can recover up to 7 sorcery points.
And:
Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain three of the following Metamagic options of your choice. You gain two more at 10th and another two at 17th level.
You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.
Sorcerers need more spells known. There's absolutely no excuse for a primary spellcasting class to know fewer spells than it has levels at any point.
They also need more sorcery points because far too many of their class features are dependent on using sorcery points- you want to make extra spell slots, but oh, you burned a few sorcery points using metamagic, and now look, you don't have enough to make use of any of your bloodline powers.
Furthermore, I'd say that sorcerers ought to get more metamagic, because frankly learning two metamagic tricks at third level and then having to wait all the way to 10th level before getting anything more is far too limiting.
I agree with everything said here.
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Agreed, that’s why I propose the following adjustments:
Sorcerous Recovery
At 3rd level, you have learned to regain some of your magical energy by focusing inward. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can rEgan a number of spent sorcery points equal to or less than one third your sorcerer level (rounded up).
For example, if you’re a 4th-level sorcerer, you can recover up to 2 sorcery points, if you’re a 19th-level sorcerer, you can recover up to 7 sorcery points.
And:
Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain three of the following Metamagic options of your choice. You gain two more at 10th and another two at 17th level.
You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.
I would go as far as saying "EVERY short rest you take you regain half your sorcery point maximum"
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Sorcerers need more spells known. There's absolutely no excuse for a primary spellcasting class to know fewer spells than it has levels at any point.
They also need more sorcery points because far too many of their class features are dependent on using sorcery points- you want to make extra spell slots, but oh, you burned a few sorcery points using metamagic, and now look, you don't have enough to make use of any of your bloodline powers.
Furthermore, I'd say that sorcerers ought to get more metamagic, because frankly learning two metamagic tricks at third level and then having to wait all the way to 10th level before getting anything more is far too limiting.
The limited spells known was a flavor reason. The idea is that sorcerers do not learn magic so much as manifest it despite not learning magic. Bards, clerics, druids, and wizards are educated spell casters so have broader variety and ritual abilities. It's more of a fluff reason than a mechanical one.
Meta-magic is very good but takes more system mastery than one might expect. I find 2 is enough because subclasses often do have other ways to spend sorcery points, and the points are not too few because it's easy to convert slots into more of them.
It would be nice to know more spells, have more sorcery points, have more meta-magic etc but it's not needed. I find the existing sorc points and meta-magic system easily worthwhile compared to a big list of spells and some rituals. If anyone disagrees play the wizard instead. Problem solved.
I am currently playtesting every short rest a sorcerer regains SP=to the highest sorcerer spell level they can cast and its working very well. Without a robust SP recovery mechanic the sorcerer falls victim to consumable magic items, they do not get used in fear of needing them later resulting in essentially not having them at all.
I am currently playtesting every short rest a sorcerer regains SP=to the highest sorcerer spell level they can cast and its working very well. Without a robust SP recovery mechanic the sorcerer falls victim to consumable magic items, they do not get used in fear of needing them later resulting in essentially not having them at all.
Did you remove the ability to create slots with sorc points? That's where abuse comes from.
Taking a long rest loses the bonus slots but a long rest isn't required to be taken. A 9th level divine soul who picks up greater restoration can remove the daily level of exhaustion to avoid sleeping and taking that long rest as long as he or she can keep paying the 100 gp material cost. The sorcerer can create more additional 5th level slots per day through multiple short rests the gets used for greater restoration to offset the exhaustion. That enables downtime buildup for a massive number coming into the adventure.
That's already how sorcs can use the capstone or warlock splash. Your house rule enables doing with faster spell level advancement.
Aside from that, sorcerers can leverage converting sorc points to more slots than wizards recover and still have the occasional meta-magicked spell. It's just so situational no one ever does it because more meta-magic is generally better than more spells. Changing sorc points to recover slots instead of creating them (to avoid the build up abuse) doesn't change that. It just gives more meta-magic.
using SP to convert to slots is extremely inefficient plus remember the only core feature of the sorcerer is metamagic so every slot they create is basically giving up a core feature to do so.
In my fix I reigned in sorlocks by not allowing sorcery points to function outside of sorcerer class features which includes pact magic. On a typical adventuring day you only have 2 short rests which with my fix comes out across all levels roughly equivalent to arcane recovery. If anything its a hair weaker. For example take a 10th lvl sorcerer and wizard the wizard can regain 5 levels of spells 1/ long rest on a short rest which is the equivalent of 10 SP. Since the game assumes you will have 2 short rests per day that comes to 5 SP per rest. A 10th level sorcerer can cast up to 5th lvl spells. The only advantage is at odd levels but the difference is so small its really not an issue.
using SP to convert to slots is extremely inefficient plus remember the only core feature of the sorcerer is metamagic so every slot they create is basically giving up a core feature to do so.
In my fix I reigned in sorlocks by not allowing sorcery points to function outside of sorcerer class features which includes pact magic. On a typical adventuring day you only have 2 short rests which with my fix comes out across all levels roughly equivalent to arcane recovery. If anything its a hair weaker. For example take a 10th lvl sorcerer and wizard the wizard can regain 5 levels of spells 1/ long rest on a short rest which is the equivalent of 10 SP. Since the game assumes you will have 2 short rests per day that comes to 5 SP per rest. A 10th level sorcerer can cast up to 5th lvl spells. The only advantage is at odd levels but the difference is so small its really not an issue.
Using the sorc point / slot conversion can be more efficient. For example, twinning banishment costs 4 sorc points. For example, at 7th level when that becomes a possibility it's something beyond the wizard. At 9th level it's more cost efficient to convert a 4th level slot to sorc points and then spend 7 sorc points to create a 5th level slot. Banishment then hits two targets for 3 sorc points instead of of 4 sorc points for the cost of the same 4th level slot. There's some system mastery in looking for that efficiency.
Converting 1st and 2nd level slots into sorc points is usually a good use for applying meta-magic to higher level spells or cantrips. Neither wizards nor sorcerers runs out of cantrips regardless of the adventuring day but the sorc is a far better cantrip spammer.
Converting slots to points specifically to change points back to lower level slots solely for the purpose of creating slots is definitely inefficient but can still beat the wizard short rest recovery. For another example, a 10th level sorcerer creating 3 2nd level slots cost 9 sorc points and leaves 1 for meta-magic. Arcane recovery at the same level allows for 5 spell levels so would be 2 2nd level slots and a 1st level slot in comparison. That favors the sorcerer in that example. Converting points to slots and still having the occasional meta-works but it's not common for the simple reason that casting more spells is rarely better than casting enhanced spells. How sorcerers typically use points illustrates that premise so arcane recovery isn't all it's cracked up to be. ;-)
Your rule with the warlock restriction did not actually address the point I made. Sorc points create extra slots. It doesn't matter how many short rests are in a typical adventuring day when so many can be taken before the adventuring day starts. The only thing the sorcerer needs to do is avoid taking a long rest and there are multiple ways in the game to do that. Going back to that sorcerer who MC's warlock the sorcerer goes tome and picks up both book of ancient secrets and aspect of the moon. Rituals are there and no need to sleep. If that character rests to recover HD (not actually needed since self healing spells are available to either class depending on patron and bloodline) then creates a slot, rests a couple hours, creates a slots, rests a couple hours, creates a slots, rests a couple hours etc the character starts the adventure with extra spell slots only restricted by how much downtime was available before the adventure began. All those banked slots can also be converted to sorc points to fuel meta-magic.
The title of this thread is obviously bait but it's pretty inaccurate bait or not. ;-) Meta-magic is definitely worthwhile in it's current form compared to a few more spell slots, rituals, and a few more spells prepped vs known.
Like I said in another thread, every spell caster in 5e is both over-powered and under-powered depending who's complaining.
good luck finding a sane DM that would allow that plus MC isn't taken into account when it comes to balance since its an optional rule
Again, MC has nothing to do with it.
The flexible casting feature creates slots. That's how it works. Errata added that those extra slots disappear after a long rest. I've seen DM's state characters gained the benefits of a long rest by inadvertently resting long enough when they slept and that the only reason to even look at that. Your "fix" creates the issue because it grants a lot more sorcery points for creating slots during downtime.
A long rest is not required to be taken. "The DM won't let the sorcerer use the abilities how they were created" isn't a strong argument along side "but MC is optional" to claim the hole in your house rule doesn't exist. Not using sorcery points to create slots or forcing the sorcerer to give them up would be the optional by definition as well because they would be house rules. It's an obvious flaw in granting faster SP recovery. You can pretend it doesn't exist or your can take the feedback and use it so you know the potential issue and make another house rule to correct it.
Enforcing the long rest gets taken allows for the capstone to be used as intended where the sorcerer can bank a few slots and short rest before starting the adventure the same day. That's how it's meant to be used and why the capstone is better than it looks. Your house rule enables banking slots early no matter what.
I'm going to continue to disagree that it's necessary as well. Earlier it was mentioned sorcerers favor a shorter day because of arcane recovery vs flexible casting. Slot recovery is a sorcerer / warlock / wizard thing. Druids can pick it up with land circle to duplicate the wizard ability. Warlocks do it on a specific different style of spell casting. Flexible casting is only really comparable to arcane recovery / natural renewal. Bards, clerics, and most druids do not benefit from such an ability.
At 1st level the wizard can short rest for a single 1st level spell and flexible casting does not exist. The sorcerer has an extra cantrip instead and that goes farther than a 1st level slot running a longer day. That extra cantrip is important at low levels at least until 4th level while both are relying on cantrips. At 2nd level both gain a 1st level slot. The wizard needs a short rest while the sorcerer does not as a minor benefit. At 3rd level they both gain a 2nd level slot or the wizard gains 2 1st level slots and the sorc gains a 1st level slot and still has a point to spend on meta-magic.
At 4th level they both gain another cantrip so the wizard feels the missing cantrip a bit less. The wizard still recovers one 3rd level slot or 2 1st level slots. The sorcerer gains the same 2nd level slots and has a point to spend or has both 1st level spells too. At 5th level they can make / recover a 3rd level slots. It's a pattern that repeats itself where at a given level the sorcerer has similar options or similar options plus extra sorc points. As levels increase this favors the sorcerer.
Fast forward to 20th level. The wizard can take a short rest to recover 2 5th level slots or the sorcerer can create 2 5th level slots and have 6 sorcery points available for metamagic. That sorcerer can also create 10 1st level slots using spells the might scale well. A wizard cannot do that because a wizard can only recover what has been spent in slots. A lot of people forget that in their white rooms. If a wizard spent all four 1st level slots then 4 1st level slots can be recovered.
Flexible casting is flat out better than arcane recovery and still allows for some meta-magic. Players not creating slots in favor of using meta-magic demonstrates what I said earlier: meta-magic is more powerful than spell recovery / extra slots. Players want to eat their cake and have it too, and that's why they complain about flexible casting. They want to have the slots and the meta-magic but really they do have the slots and some meta-magic but just want to meta-magic all the time.
Your premise of a need is something I do not agree with after a lot of game play experience and your house rule has the flaw I brought up. I play sorcerers more than wizards these days because I prefer meta-magic. That's what my experience has taught me. ;-)
You forget that a 20th level wizard would also have one 1st and one 2nd level spell that they can cast an unlimited number of times per day. And for both classes, cantrips have surpassed 1st level spells in damage output. Extra 1st level spell slots are correspondingly less valuable.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You forget that a 20th level wizard would also have one 1st and one 2nd level spell that they can cast an unlimited number of times per day. And for both classes, cantrips have surpassed 1st level spells in damage output. Extra 1st level spell slots are correspondingly less valuable.
I didn't forget it. Spell mastery is a fantastic ability. It's not just not relevant in comparing flexible casting to arcane recovery. The comment on the 10 1st level slots was illustrating that flexibility compared to recovery.
10 first level spells or 6 second level spells or 4 third level spells or 3 fourth level spells or 2 fifth level spells favors the sorcerer.
Spell mastery is also available in an epic boon for sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards for another first level spell. In the case of the divine soul or celestial warlock that means unlimited cure wounds after every combat. ;-)
For arcane recovery to be comparable, it would need to lose the short rest restriction, lose the slots used restriction, increase the number of spells slots it makes available, and add additional uses to improve spells cast. Other than the earliest levels flexible casting is the superior option -- it just uses the points for improving spells instead most of the time.
That doesn't mean wizards don't also have benefits. My stance is that sorcerers don't suck, not that wizards do suck. ;-)
Given that Spell Mastery directly affects what a wizard would need to use Arcane Recovery on, yes, it actually is relevant. Epic Boons, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant because they're not a class power. The sorcerer's sorcery points favor the sorcerer in spellcasting, but only if you ignore the wizard's own class abilities is not a compelling argument.
And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Given that Spell Mastery directly affects what a wizard would need to use Arcane Recovery on, yes, it actually is relevant. Epic Boons, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant because they're not a class power. The sorcerer's sorcery points favor the sorcerer in spellcasting, but only if you ignore the wizard's own class abilities is not a compelling argument.
And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack.
Spell mastery is arcane recovery plus an additional epic tier feature added in. It's a comparison of two features to one and not typical during most of the game. If you want a more fair comparison you would need to add in another similar epic tier feature, which an epic boon would be an example. It is also a class relevant feature because that particular boon is restricted by class to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.
"And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack."
Saying it doesn't make it correct. That's why I demonstrated it with examples. The sorcerer ability is to have sorcery points. Those points can be used for more than arcane recovery. The wizard not having as many options with a resource is not a benefit. Arcane recovery is what's limited in the comparison because it cannot do everything sorcery points can.
I gave specific examples of not burning through all the sorcery points to match arcane recovery and still have sorcery points left over to use for meta-magic. You seem to have chosen to ignore that and repeat yourself. It doesn't matter if the sorcerer uses all of the sorcery points on spell slots when the end result is more spells per day than the wizard has if that's how the sorcerer chooses to spend those points. At that point arcane recovery is matched or exceeded while the wizard didn't have anything to match meta-magic anyway.
Your quote still does not address the reason I quoted you in the first place. Your house rule enables something similar to the coffeelock without needing the warlock splash. Your house rule exceeds the capstone ability at 9th level. Your house rule opens up an exploitable feature and "but a DM will restrict sorcerers" is not an argument to demonstrate the validity of that house rule or that sorcerers suck.
The bottom line is wizards and sorcerers both have tool early in the levels (arcane recovery vs sorcery points) and the sorcerer can do a lot more with that particular tool. The fact those can be spent on more that spell slots is not an example of a restriction. It's an example of added versatility arcane recovery lacks.
You're still ignoring the fact that this discussion was about the total power of sorcerers relative to other classes. Cherry picking exact circumstances and pretending that they happen in isolation of all the other powers of the class does not prove any of your arguments true.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You're still ignoring the fact that this discussion was about the total power of sorcerers relative to other classes. Cherry picking exact circumstances and pretending that they happen in isolation of all the other powers of the class does not prove any of your arguments true.
Now hold on, when discussing the overall power of a class in comparison to other classes, there is nothing wrong with comparing equivalent features directly against each other to form a collective conclusion.
To be fair, when directly compared to each other, on the whole Font of Magic is WAAYYY more powerful, more versatile, and easier to access than Arcane Recovery, both 2nd-level core class features. Arcane Recovery is a one-time choose it when you use it, and only on a short rest. Font of Magic is roughly comparable because if you trade in your points for slots it serves a similar function, scales similarly, and caps out the same on Slot Level. ☑️☑️☑️
But wait, there’s more... You can do it for free in the middle of combat!! And you can trade slots for points to basically convert whatever you need so you never actually have to waste a slot of a higher level because you ran out of low slots? You basically can ask for change back!! There’s more?!? You can also combine lower level slots you don’t need to get higher level slots exactly when you do need them!! And you can do it as often as you like!?! And a set of steak knives!!!! I’m dialing and pulling it my card as I type this.
Now, I get what you’re saying that looking at that in a vacuum is inaccurate and that’s true. Yes, Wizards have a bigger spell list, they have way more spell versatility, and they can hold more spells in their noggins than Sorcerers can, way, wayy more. And the book holds all their Rituals so extra bonus.
Sorcerers get Metamagic. They can do shit with their spells that no one else can. They also have the biggest stack of Cantrips. They have a smaller, but stronger pool of Subclasses too.
Now, do I agree with you that Sorcerers need some love? Absolutely, and I have gone on record as saying it. But go pop your head over to the Wizards suck forum and you’ll see that nobody is happy.
Agreed, that’s why I propose the following adjustments:
And:
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I agree with everything said here.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I would go as far as saying "EVERY short rest you take you regain half your sorcery point maximum"
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Too far. The most I would go is 1ce/LR, and = half Sorcerer level.
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The limited spells known was a flavor reason. The idea is that sorcerers do not learn magic so much as manifest it despite not learning magic. Bards, clerics, druids, and wizards are educated spell casters so have broader variety and ritual abilities. It's more of a fluff reason than a mechanical one.
Meta-magic is very good but takes more system mastery than one might expect. I find 2 is enough because subclasses often do have other ways to spend sorcery points, and the points are not too few because it's easy to convert slots into more of them.
It would be nice to know more spells, have more sorcery points, have more meta-magic etc but it's not needed. I find the existing sorc points and meta-magic system easily worthwhile compared to a big list of spells and some rituals. If anyone disagrees play the wizard instead. Problem solved.
I am currently playtesting every short rest a sorcerer regains SP=to the highest sorcerer spell level they can cast and its working very well. Without a robust SP recovery mechanic the sorcerer falls victim to consumable magic items, they do not get used in fear of needing them later resulting in essentially not having them at all.
Did you remove the ability to create slots with sorc points? That's where abuse comes from.
Taking a long rest loses the bonus slots but a long rest isn't required to be taken. A 9th level divine soul who picks up greater restoration can remove the daily level of exhaustion to avoid sleeping and taking that long rest as long as he or she can keep paying the 100 gp material cost. The sorcerer can create more additional 5th level slots per day through multiple short rests the gets used for greater restoration to offset the exhaustion. That enables downtime buildup for a massive number coming into the adventure.
That's already how sorcs can use the capstone or warlock splash. Your house rule enables doing with faster spell level advancement.
Aside from that, sorcerers can leverage converting sorc points to more slots than wizards recover and still have the occasional meta-magicked spell. It's just so situational no one ever does it because more meta-magic is generally better than more spells. Changing sorc points to recover slots instead of creating them (to avoid the build up abuse) doesn't change that. It just gives more meta-magic.
using SP to convert to slots is extremely inefficient plus remember the only core feature of the sorcerer is metamagic so every slot they create is basically giving up a core feature to do so.
In my fix I reigned in sorlocks by not allowing sorcery points to function outside of sorcerer class features which includes pact magic. On a typical adventuring day you only have 2 short rests which with my fix comes out across all levels roughly equivalent to arcane recovery. If anything its a hair weaker. For example take a 10th lvl sorcerer and wizard the wizard can regain 5 levels of spells 1/ long rest on a short rest which is the equivalent of 10 SP. Since the game assumes you will have 2 short rests per day that comes to 5 SP per rest. A 10th level sorcerer can cast up to 5th lvl spells. The only advantage is at odd levels but the difference is so small its really not an issue.
Using the sorc point / slot conversion can be more efficient. For example, twinning banishment costs 4 sorc points. For example, at 7th level when that becomes a possibility it's something beyond the wizard. At 9th level it's more cost efficient to convert a 4th level slot to sorc points and then spend 7 sorc points to create a 5th level slot. Banishment then hits two targets for 3 sorc points instead of of 4 sorc points for the cost of the same 4th level slot. There's some system mastery in looking for that efficiency.
Converting 1st and 2nd level slots into sorc points is usually a good use for applying meta-magic to higher level spells or cantrips. Neither wizards nor sorcerers runs out of cantrips regardless of the adventuring day but the sorc is a far better cantrip spammer.
Converting slots to points specifically to change points back to lower level slots solely for the purpose of creating slots is definitely inefficient but can still beat the wizard short rest recovery. For another example, a 10th level sorcerer creating 3 2nd level slots cost 9 sorc points and leaves 1 for meta-magic. Arcane recovery at the same level allows for 5 spell levels so would be 2 2nd level slots and a 1st level slot in comparison. That favors the sorcerer in that example. Converting points to slots and still having the occasional meta-works but it's not common for the simple reason that casting more spells is rarely better than casting enhanced spells. How sorcerers typically use points illustrates that premise so arcane recovery isn't all it's cracked up to be. ;-)
Your rule with the warlock restriction did not actually address the point I made. Sorc points create extra slots. It doesn't matter how many short rests are in a typical adventuring day when so many can be taken before the adventuring day starts. The only thing the sorcerer needs to do is avoid taking a long rest and there are multiple ways in the game to do that. Going back to that sorcerer who MC's warlock the sorcerer goes tome and picks up both book of ancient secrets and aspect of the moon. Rituals are there and no need to sleep. If that character rests to recover HD (not actually needed since self healing spells are available to either class depending on patron and bloodline) then creates a slot, rests a couple hours, creates a slots, rests a couple hours, creates a slots, rests a couple hours etc the character starts the adventure with extra spell slots only restricted by how much downtime was available before the adventure began. All those banked slots can also be converted to sorc points to fuel meta-magic.
The title of this thread is obviously bait but it's pretty inaccurate bait or not. ;-) Meta-magic is definitely worthwhile in it's current form compared to a few more spell slots, rituals, and a few more spells prepped vs known.
Like I said in another thread, every spell caster in 5e is both over-powered and under-powered depending who's complaining.
good luck finding a sane DM that would allow that plus MC isn't taken into account when it comes to balance since its an optional rule
Yeah, I consider myself a pretty permissive DM, but I would not allow Coffeelocking or anything similar to that at my table.
Again, MC has nothing to do with it.
The flexible casting feature creates slots. That's how it works. Errata added that those extra slots disappear after a long rest. I've seen DM's state characters gained the benefits of a long rest by inadvertently resting long enough when they slept and that the only reason to even look at that. Your "fix" creates the issue because it grants a lot more sorcery points for creating slots during downtime.
A long rest is not required to be taken. "The DM won't let the sorcerer use the abilities how they were created" isn't a strong argument along side "but MC is optional" to claim the hole in your house rule doesn't exist. Not using sorcery points to create slots or forcing the sorcerer to give them up would be the optional by definition as well because they would be house rules. It's an obvious flaw in granting faster SP recovery. You can pretend it doesn't exist or your can take the feedback and use it so you know the potential issue and make another house rule to correct it.
Enforcing the long rest gets taken allows for the capstone to be used as intended where the sorcerer can bank a few slots and short rest before starting the adventure the same day. That's how it's meant to be used and why the capstone is better than it looks. Your house rule enables banking slots early no matter what.
I'm going to continue to disagree that it's necessary as well. Earlier it was mentioned sorcerers favor a shorter day because of arcane recovery vs flexible casting. Slot recovery is a sorcerer / warlock / wizard thing. Druids can pick it up with land circle to duplicate the wizard ability. Warlocks do it on a specific different style of spell casting. Flexible casting is only really comparable to arcane recovery / natural renewal. Bards, clerics, and most druids do not benefit from such an ability.
At 1st level the wizard can short rest for a single 1st level spell and flexible casting does not exist. The sorcerer has an extra cantrip instead and that goes farther than a 1st level slot running a longer day. That extra cantrip is important at low levels at least until 4th level while both are relying on cantrips. At 2nd level both gain a 1st level slot. The wizard needs a short rest while the sorcerer does not as a minor benefit. At 3rd level they both gain a 2nd level slot or the wizard gains 2 1st level slots and the sorc gains a 1st level slot and still has a point to spend on meta-magic.
At 4th level they both gain another cantrip so the wizard feels the missing cantrip a bit less. The wizard still recovers one 3rd level slot or 2 1st level slots. The sorcerer gains the same 2nd level slots and has a point to spend or has both 1st level spells too. At 5th level they can make / recover a 3rd level slots. It's a pattern that repeats itself where at a given level the sorcerer has similar options or similar options plus extra sorc points. As levels increase this favors the sorcerer.
Fast forward to 20th level. The wizard can take a short rest to recover 2 5th level slots or the sorcerer can create 2 5th level slots and have 6 sorcery points available for metamagic. That sorcerer can also create 10 1st level slots using spells the might scale well. A wizard cannot do that because a wizard can only recover what has been spent in slots. A lot of people forget that in their white rooms. If a wizard spent all four 1st level slots then 4 1st level slots can be recovered.
Flexible casting is flat out better than arcane recovery and still allows for some meta-magic. Players not creating slots in favor of using meta-magic demonstrates what I said earlier: meta-magic is more powerful than spell recovery / extra slots. Players want to eat their cake and have it too, and that's why they complain about flexible casting. They want to have the slots and the meta-magic but really they do have the slots and some meta-magic but just want to meta-magic all the time.
Your premise of a need is something I do not agree with after a lot of game play experience and your house rule has the flaw I brought up. I play sorcerers more than wizards these days because I prefer meta-magic. That's what my experience has taught me. ;-)
You forget that a 20th level wizard would also have one 1st and one 2nd level spell that they can cast an unlimited number of times per day. And for both classes, cantrips have surpassed 1st level spells in damage output. Extra 1st level spell slots are correspondingly less valuable.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I didn't forget it. Spell mastery is a fantastic ability. It's not just not relevant in comparing flexible casting to arcane recovery. The comment on the 10 1st level slots was illustrating that flexibility compared to recovery.
10 first level spells or 6 second level spells or 4 third level spells or 3 fourth level spells or 2 fifth level spells favors the sorcerer.
Spell mastery is also available in an epic boon for sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards for another first level spell. In the case of the divine soul or celestial warlock that means unlimited cure wounds after every combat. ;-)
For arcane recovery to be comparable, it would need to lose the short rest restriction, lose the slots used restriction, increase the number of spells slots it makes available, and add additional uses to improve spells cast. Other than the earliest levels flexible casting is the superior option -- it just uses the points for improving spells instead most of the time.
That doesn't mean wizards don't also have benefits. My stance is that sorcerers don't suck, not that wizards do suck. ;-)
Given that Spell Mastery directly affects what a wizard would need to use Arcane Recovery on, yes, it actually is relevant. Epic Boons, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant because they're not a class power. The sorcerer's sorcery points favor the sorcerer in spellcasting, but only if you ignore the wizard's own class abilities is not a compelling argument.
And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Spell mastery is arcane recovery plus an additional epic tier feature added in. It's a comparison of two features to one and not typical during most of the game. If you want a more fair comparison you would need to add in another similar epic tier feature, which an epic boon would be an example. It is also a class relevant feature because that particular boon is restricted by class to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.
"And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack."
Saying it doesn't make it correct. That's why I demonstrated it with examples. The sorcerer ability is to have sorcery points. Those points can be used for more than arcane recovery. The wizard not having as many options with a resource is not a benefit. Arcane recovery is what's limited in the comparison because it cannot do everything sorcery points can.
I gave specific examples of not burning through all the sorcery points to match arcane recovery and still have sorcery points left over to use for meta-magic. You seem to have chosen to ignore that and repeat yourself. It doesn't matter if the sorcerer uses all of the sorcery points on spell slots when the end result is more spells per day than the wizard has if that's how the sorcerer chooses to spend those points. At that point arcane recovery is matched or exceeded while the wizard didn't have anything to match meta-magic anyway.
Your quote still does not address the reason I quoted you in the first place. Your house rule enables something similar to the coffeelock without needing the warlock splash. Your house rule exceeds the capstone ability at 9th level. Your house rule opens up an exploitable feature and "but a DM will restrict sorcerers" is not an argument to demonstrate the validity of that house rule or that sorcerers suck.
The bottom line is wizards and sorcerers both have tool early in the levels (arcane recovery vs sorcery points) and the sorcerer can do a lot more with that particular tool. The fact those can be spent on more that spell slots is not an example of a restriction. It's an example of added versatility arcane recovery lacks.
You're still ignoring the fact that this discussion was about the total power of sorcerers relative to other classes. Cherry picking exact circumstances and pretending that they happen in isolation of all the other powers of the class does not prove any of your arguments true.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Now hold on, when discussing the overall power of a class in comparison to other classes, there is nothing wrong with comparing equivalent features directly against each other to form a collective conclusion.
To be fair, when directly compared to each other, on the whole Font of Magic is WAAYYY more powerful, more versatile, and easier to access than Arcane Recovery, both 2nd-level core class features. Arcane Recovery is a one-time choose it when you use it, and only on a short rest. Font of Magic is roughly comparable because if you trade in your points for slots it serves a similar function, scales similarly, and caps out the same on Slot Level. ☑️☑️☑️
But wait, there’s more... You can do it for free in the middle of combat!! And you can trade slots for points to basically convert whatever you need so you never actually have to waste a slot of a higher level because you ran out of low slots? You basically can ask for change back!! There’s more?!? You can also combine lower level slots you don’t need to get higher level slots exactly when you do need them!! And you can do it as often as you like!?! And a set of steak knives!!!! I’m dialing and pulling it my card as I type this.
Now, I get what you’re saying that looking at that in a vacuum is inaccurate and that’s true. Yes, Wizards have a bigger spell list, they have way more spell versatility, and they can hold more spells in their noggins than Sorcerers can, way, wayy more. And the book holds all their Rituals so extra bonus.
Sorcerers get Metamagic. They can do shit with their spells that no one else can. They also have the biggest stack of Cantrips. They have a smaller, but stronger pool of Subclasses too.
Now, do I agree with you that Sorcerers need some love? Absolutely, and I have gone on record as saying it. But go pop your head over to the Wizards suck forum and you’ll see that nobody is happy.
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