You forget that a 20th level wizard would also have one 1st and one 2nd level spell that they can cast an unlimited number of times per day. And for both classes, cantrips have surpassed 1st level spells in damage output. Extra 1st level spell slots are correspondingly less valuable.
I didn't forget it. Spell mastery is a fantastic ability. It's not just not relevant in comparing flexible casting to arcane recovery. The comment on the 10 1st level slots was illustrating that flexibility compared to recovery.
10 first level spells or 6 second level spells or 4 third level spells or 3 fourth level spells or 2 fifth level spells favors the sorcerer.
Spell mastery is also available in an epic boon for sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards for another first level spell. In the case of the divine soul or celestial warlock that means unlimited cure wounds after every combat. ;-)
For arcane recovery to be comparable, it would need to lose the short rest restriction, lose the slots used restriction, increase the number of spells slots it makes available, and add additional uses to improve spells cast. Other than the earliest levels flexible casting is the superior option -- it just uses the points for improving spells instead most of the time.
That doesn't mean wizards don't also have benefits. My stance is that sorcerers don't suck, not that wizards do suck. ;-)
Given that Spell Mastery directly affects what a wizard would need to use Arcane Recovery on, yes, it actually is relevant. Epic Boons, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant because they're not a class power. The sorcerer's sorcery points favor the sorcerer in spellcasting, but only if you ignore the wizard's own class abilities is not a compelling argument.
And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Given that Spell Mastery directly affects what a wizard would need to use Arcane Recovery on, yes, it actually is relevant. Epic Boons, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant because they're not a class power. The sorcerer's sorcery points favor the sorcerer in spellcasting, but only if you ignore the wizard's own class abilities is not a compelling argument.
And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack.
Spell mastery is arcane recovery plus an additional epic tier feature added in. It's a comparison of two features to one and not typical during most of the game. If you want a more fair comparison you would need to add in another similar epic tier feature, which an epic boon would be an example. It is also a class relevant feature because that particular boon is restricted by class to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.
"And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack."
Saying it doesn't make it correct. That's why I demonstrated it with examples. The sorcerer ability is to have sorcery points. Those points can be used for more than arcane recovery. The wizard not having as many options with a resource is not a benefit. Arcane recovery is what's limited in the comparison because it cannot do everything sorcery points can.
I gave specific examples of not burning through all the sorcery points to match arcane recovery and still have sorcery points left over to use for meta-magic. You seem to have chosen to ignore that and repeat yourself. It doesn't matter if the sorcerer uses all of the sorcery points on spell slots when the end result is more spells per day than the wizard has if that's how the sorcerer chooses to spend those points. At that point arcane recovery is matched or exceeded while the wizard didn't have anything to match meta-magic anyway.
Your quote still does not address the reason I quoted you in the first place. Your house rule enables something similar to the coffeelock without needing the warlock splash. Your house rule exceeds the capstone ability at 9th level. Your house rule opens up an exploitable feature and "but a DM will restrict sorcerers" is not an argument to demonstrate the validity of that house rule or that sorcerers suck.
The bottom line is wizards and sorcerers both have tool early in the levels (arcane recovery vs sorcery points) and the sorcerer can do a lot more with that particular tool. The fact those can be spent on more that spell slots is not an example of a restriction. It's an example of added versatility arcane recovery lacks.
You're still ignoring the fact that this discussion was about the total power of sorcerers relative to other classes. Cherry picking exact circumstances and pretending that they happen in isolation of all the other powers of the class does not prove any of your arguments true.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You're still ignoring the fact that this discussion was about the total power of sorcerers relative to other classes. Cherry picking exact circumstances and pretending that they happen in isolation of all the other powers of the class does not prove any of your arguments true.
Now hold on, when discussing the overall power of a class in comparison to other classes, there is nothing wrong with comparing equivalent features directly against each other to form a collective conclusion.
To be fair, when directly compared to each other, on the whole Font of Magic is WAAYYY more powerful, more versatile, and easier to access than Arcane Recovery, both 2nd-level core class features. Arcane Recovery is a one-time choose it when you use it, and only on a short rest. Font of Magic is roughly comparable because if you trade in your points for slots it serves a similar function, scales similarly, and caps out the same on Slot Level. ☑️☑️☑️
But wait, there’s more... You can do it for free in the middle of combat!! And you can trade slots for points to basically convert whatever you need so you never actually have to waste a slot of a higher level because you ran out of low slots? You basically can ask for change back!! There’s more?!? You can also combine lower level slots you don’t need to get higher level slots exactly when you do need them!! And you can do it as often as you like!?! And a set of steak knives!!!! I’m dialing and pulling it my card as I type this.
Now, I get what you’re saying that looking at that in a vacuum is inaccurate and that’s true. Yes, Wizards have a bigger spell list, they have way more spell versatility, and they can hold more spells in their noggins than Sorcerers can, way, wayy more. And the book holds all their Rituals so extra bonus.
Sorcerers get Metamagic. They can do shit with their spells that no one else can. They also have the biggest stack of Cantrips. They have a smaller, but stronger pool of Subclasses too.
Now, do I agree with you that Sorcerers need some love? Absolutely, and I have gone on record as saying it. But go pop your head over to the Wizards suck forum and you’ll see that nobody is happy.
I didn't forget it. Spell mastery is a fantastic ability. It's not just not relevant in comparing flexible casting to arcane recovery. The comment on the 10 1st level slots was illustrating that flexibility compared to recovery.
10 first level spells or 6 second level spells or 4 third level spells or 3 fourth level spells or 2 fifth level spells favors the sorcerer.
Spell mastery is also available in an epic boon for sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards for another first level spell. In the case of the divine soul or celestial warlock that means unlimited cure wounds after every combat. ;-)
For arcane recovery to be comparable, it would need to lose the short rest restriction, lose the slots used restriction, increase the number of spells slots it makes available, and add additional uses to improve spells cast. Other than the earliest levels flexible casting is the superior option -- it just uses the points for improving spells instead most of the time.
That doesn't mean wizards don't also have benefits. My stance is that sorcerers don't suck, not that wizards do suck. ;-)
Given that Spell Mastery directly affects what a wizard would need to use Arcane Recovery on, yes, it actually is relevant. Epic Boons, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant because they're not a class power. The sorcerer's sorcery points favor the sorcerer in spellcasting, but only if you ignore the wizard's own class abilities is not a compelling argument.
And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Spell mastery is arcane recovery plus an additional epic tier feature added in. It's a comparison of two features to one and not typical during most of the game. If you want a more fair comparison you would need to add in another similar epic tier feature, which an epic boon would be an example. It is also a class relevant feature because that particular boon is restricted by class to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers.
"And as I and other people have already stated, sorcery points also fuel the sorcerer's metamagic abilities and many of their bloodline abilities as well- burning through all of them to create extra spell slots is not a great thing when it leaves you unable to use your other class abilites. Another limitation that wizards lack."
Saying it doesn't make it correct. That's why I demonstrated it with examples. The sorcerer ability is to have sorcery points. Those points can be used for more than arcane recovery. The wizard not having as many options with a resource is not a benefit. Arcane recovery is what's limited in the comparison because it cannot do everything sorcery points can.
I gave specific examples of not burning through all the sorcery points to match arcane recovery and still have sorcery points left over to use for meta-magic. You seem to have chosen to ignore that and repeat yourself. It doesn't matter if the sorcerer uses all of the sorcery points on spell slots when the end result is more spells per day than the wizard has if that's how the sorcerer chooses to spend those points. At that point arcane recovery is matched or exceeded while the wizard didn't have anything to match meta-magic anyway.
Your quote still does not address the reason I quoted you in the first place. Your house rule enables something similar to the coffeelock without needing the warlock splash. Your house rule exceeds the capstone ability at 9th level. Your house rule opens up an exploitable feature and "but a DM will restrict sorcerers" is not an argument to demonstrate the validity of that house rule or that sorcerers suck.
The bottom line is wizards and sorcerers both have tool early in the levels (arcane recovery vs sorcery points) and the sorcerer can do a lot more with that particular tool. The fact those can be spent on more that spell slots is not an example of a restriction. It's an example of added versatility arcane recovery lacks.
You're still ignoring the fact that this discussion was about the total power of sorcerers relative to other classes. Cherry picking exact circumstances and pretending that they happen in isolation of all the other powers of the class does not prove any of your arguments true.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Now hold on, when discussing the overall power of a class in comparison to other classes, there is nothing wrong with comparing equivalent features directly against each other to form a collective conclusion.
To be fair, when directly compared to each other, on the whole Font of Magic is WAAYYY more powerful, more versatile, and easier to access than Arcane Recovery, both 2nd-level core class features. Arcane Recovery is a one-time choose it when you use it, and only on a short rest. Font of Magic is roughly comparable because if you trade in your points for slots it serves a similar function, scales similarly, and caps out the same on Slot Level. ☑️☑️☑️
But wait, there’s more... You can do it for free in the middle of combat!! And you can trade slots for points to basically convert whatever you need so you never actually have to waste a slot of a higher level because you ran out of low slots? You basically can ask for change back!! There’s more?!? You can also combine lower level slots you don’t need to get higher level slots exactly when you do need them!! And you can do it as often as you like!?! And a set of steak knives!!!! I’m dialing and pulling it my card as I type this.
Now, I get what you’re saying that looking at that in a vacuum is inaccurate and that’s true. Yes, Wizards have a bigger spell list, they have way more spell versatility, and they can hold more spells in their noggins than Sorcerers can, way, wayy more. And the book holds all their Rituals so extra bonus.
Sorcerers get Metamagic. They can do shit with their spells that no one else can. They also have the biggest stack of Cantrips. They have a smaller, but stronger pool of Subclasses too.
Now, do I agree with you that Sorcerers need some love? Absolutely, and I have gone on record as saying it. But go pop your head over to the Wizards suck forum and you’ll see that nobody is happy.
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