If your only doing 1 or 2 encounters a day you may not realize there is a problem. However, if you play based on the 5+ encounters per day that is built into how the rest mechanics work then you will see how the sorcerer gets shafted. They have no short rest recoverable resources spells slots nor sorcery points. They are supposed to be able to cast the most per day as the trade off for knowing less spells and having very limited access to metamagic. Wizards start with more spell slots via arcane recovery and eventually get unlimited low level spell slots via spell mastery but there isn't anything like that on the sorcerer.
I don't think anybody disagrees with that, 1stsonofkrynn.
The question is just how much of a boost is needed and what kind of boost.
My comment about not seeing the problem had to do with the solution of trading hit points for sorcery points.
trading hit points for sorcery points is too easy to abuse especially on something like a divine soul. Maybe something involving the expenditure of hit dice?
I don't think anybody disagrees with that, 1stsonofkrynn.
The question is just how much of a boost is needed and what kind of boost.
My comment about not seeing the problem had to do with the solution of trading hit points for sorcery points.
trading hit points for sorcery points is too easy to abuse especially on something like a divine soul. Maybe something involving the expenditure of hit dice?
That was my thought too, But that could be up to 20d6 Sorcery Points. Even more of they Multiclass, and depending on how early you let them do it, it just makes Sorcerer’s even more prone to Cha Caster mashup shenanigans. And the Divine Soul could still abuse it all by themselves, since they don’t need those HD as much.
That’s why I settled on =Cha Mod on a SR 1X/LR levels 1-8 I guess, and 2X/LR levels 9+. I think adding your solution of Spell Mastery (to replace Sorcerous Restoration maybe?) at a higher level would probably make it so instead of the majority of players going Sorsomethingelse, they might just take it to Sorcerer 20.
As I said before, the exact exchange rate can be debated and adjusted for balance. Also, whether this hit point damage is immediately recoverable via a healing spell or can't be recovered until after a short or long rest can also be debated and adjusted for balance.
I think the trading hit points/dice for sorcery points shouldn't be in the core sorcerer, more of a subclass, possibly related to Undead creatures, but that's just my 2 cents.
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I already did. I said it does everything I want it to do, with no wizard baggage. Therefore, sorcerers do not suck.
You don't support a claim with an opinion, you do it with evidence.
I will repeat the question. Can you support your claim that sorcerers don't need to be changed with numbers or any evidence?
No one can. It's an opinion. This entire thread is an opinion. Every response is an opinion. The irony of this, is your signature shouts out the fact that opinions are going to be prevalent.
As I said before, the exact exchange rate can be debated and adjusted for balance. Also, whether this hit point damage is immediately recoverable via a healing spell or can't be recovered until after a short or long rest can also be debated and adjusted for balance.
So what exchange rate do you suggest? What mechanic do you suggest?
I already did. I said it does everything I want it to do, with no wizard baggage. Therefore, sorcerers do not suck.
You don't support a claim with an opinion, you do it with evidence.
I will repeat the question. Can you support your claim that sorcerers don't need to be changed with numbers or any evidence?
No one can. It's an opinion. This entire thread is an opinion. Every response is an opinion. The irony of this, is your signature shouts out the fact that opinions are going to be prevalent.
everyone can have an opinion but they should also be able to articulate why they hold that opinion. Its really not that unreasonable to ask people to substantiate their views with reason. How else are we supposed to understand another person's view point?
Magic is supposed to be in the blood of the sorcerer. Hit points for sorcery points reflects that.
I'd rather not forward in opinion on what the exchange rate should be because I've never played a sorcerer. My suggestion is based on flavor only. I do know, though, that Treantmonk's sorcerer variant can trade hit points for sorcery points. That might be a good place to look.
Magic is supposed to be in the blood of the sorcerer. Hit points for sorcery points reflects that.
I'd rather not forward in opinion on what the exchange rate should be because I've never played a sorcerer. My suggestion is based on flavor only. I do know, though, that Treantmonk's sorcerer variant can trade hit points for sorcery points. That might be a good place to look.
So to be clear, you are insistent that the Sorcerer class should have the alterations you suggest when you have never played the class, and based solely on someone else’s homebrewed variant?
My position is based on ensuring that the sorcerer maintains an appropriate flavor. That consideration should be the primary one before ANY numerical issue.
Magic is supposed to be in the blood of the sorcerer. Hit points for sorcery points reflects that.
I've seen this point come up before as an explanation for why trading hit points for magic or using Constitution instead of Charisma makes sense for the sorcerer. I think this is a common misunderstanding about the origin of the sorcerer's magic. Magic isn't just in the blood of the sorcerer. It's in their "bloodline". Their magic is more than just physical, it is metaphysical and extends to their very soul.
Charisma isn't just the personality stat. It is also the soul stat. That is why Sorcerer spellcasting is based on Charisma, rather than something physical. Things in D&D that require a Charisma saving throw include: banishment, magic jar, plane shift, mirror of life trapping, and ghostly possession.
From a response on RPG Stack Exchange: "In religious studies, 'charisma' sometimes refers to the inner personal power in an individual, divinely conferred." Max Weber described Charisma as:
...a certain quality of a individual by virtue of which he is set apart from ordinary men and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These ... are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader.
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Sillyva> I disagree with your premise that, in a world of magic, blood is purely physical.
I would argue that, in a world of magic, blood is as spiritual and arcane as it is material. In fact, I would warn against thinking too scientifically when analyzing things in a magical world.
I already did. I said it does everything I want it to do, with no wizard baggage. Therefore, sorcerers do not suck.
You don't support a claim with an opinion, you do it with evidence.
I will repeat the question. Can you support your claim that sorcerers don't need to be changed with numbers or any evidence?
No one can. It's an opinion. This entire thread is an opinion. Every response is an opinion. The irony of this, is your signature shouts out the fact that opinions are going to be prevalent.
You can support opinions with evidence. That is the point of this thread. The thread is to convince people that sorcerers suck as they are and need fixing, or for people to argue against that opinion. This thread is also to develop some ideas how to fix that problem. Every response tends to be an opinion supported by evidence, along with mine. My signature says, and I quote, "I have a lot of opinions on what 5e products should come out in the future, and ways previous adventures should be fixed." No where in there do I scream, I am all opinions, ignore me! I have opinions on Adventures and Needed Future Products, but my analysis of current classes are based on facts, not only opinions.
crzyhawk made a claim, and only offered an opinion to support it, I asked for evidence, and so far have received nothing.
Are opinions found in this thread? Yes.
Are they backed up with evidence? I better hope so, or I will shut up.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Magic is supposed to be in the blood of the sorcerer. Hit points for sorcery points reflects that.
I've seen this point come up before as an explanation for why trading hit points for magic or using Constitution instead of Charisma makes sense for the sorcerer. I think this is a common misunderstanding about the origin of the sorcerer's magic. Magic isn't just in the blood of the sorcerer. It's in their "bloodline". Their magic is more than just physical, it is metaphysical and extends to their very soul.
Charisma isn't just the personality stat. It is also the soul stat. That is why Sorcerer spellcasting is based on Charisma, rather than something physical. Things in D&D that require a Charisma saving throw include: banishment, magic jar, plane shift, mirror of life trapping, and ghostly possession.
From a response on RPG Stack Exchange: "In religious studies, 'charisma' sometimes refers to the inner personal power in an individual, divinely conferred." Max Weber described Charisma as:
...a certain quality of a individual by virtue of which he is set apart from ordinary men and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These ... are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader.
I agree, sorcerous power comes from the heart (metaphorically, not physically), same with bards, paladins, and warlocks.
I'll just shortly interject with this analysis of the 3 mental ability scores.
Intelligence comes from mind power, wizards, eldritch knights, arcane tricksters, and artificers all gain their spellcasting power from their brain.
Wisdom comes from the spirit. Spiritual power is what drives clerics, druids, and rangers.
Charisma comes from the soul/heart. Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and paladins all gain their power from their soul.
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In terms of Saves, Intelligence is the “Wait a minute, that can’t be right” save, Wisdom is the “You will not outwit me” save, and Charisma is the “You shall not pass!” save. Charisma is willpower in D&D. Sorcerers get their powers from sheer force of will. (Probably inspired in some small part by the Eddings’ Belgariad/Malloreon setting.)
Of course, if that were true, then everyone with an 18 Cha would be able to cast Sorcerer spells. Just like Wizards don't get their spells from their Int, Sorcerers don't get their spells from their Cha. They get it from somewhere else. Cha just helps them use it. But, even a character with a Cha of 9 could be s sorcerer - not a very good sorcerer, but they could still be a sorcerer.
If your only doing 1 or 2 encounters a day you may not realize there is a problem. However, if you play based on the 5+ encounters per day that is built into how the rest mechanics work then you will see how the sorcerer gets shafted. They have no short rest recoverable resources spells slots nor sorcery points. They are supposed to be able to cast the most per day as the trade off for knowing less spells and having very limited access to metamagic. Wizards start with more spell slots via arcane recovery and eventually get unlimited low level spell slots via spell mastery but there isn't anything like that on the sorcerer.
I don't think anybody disagrees with that, 1stsonofkrynn.
The question is just how much of a boost is needed and what kind of boost.
My comment about not seeing the problem had to do with the solution of trading hit points for sorcery points.
trading hit points for sorcery points is too easy to abuse especially on something like a divine soul. Maybe something involving the expenditure of hit dice?
1stsonofkrynn> I think that's an excellent suggestion.
That was my thought too, But that could be up to 20d6 Sorcery Points. Even more of they Multiclass, and depending on how early you let them do it, it just makes Sorcerer’s even more prone to Cha Caster mashup shenanigans. And the Divine Soul could still abuse it all by themselves, since they don’t need those HD as much.
That’s why I settled on =Cha Mod on a SR 1X/LR levels 1-8 I guess, and 2X/LR levels 9+. I think adding your solution of Spell Mastery (to replace Sorcerous Restoration maybe?) at a higher level would probably make it so instead of the majority of players going Sorsomethingelse, they might just take it to Sorcerer 20.
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As I said before, the exact exchange rate can be debated and adjusted for balance. Also, whether this hit point damage is immediately recoverable via a healing spell or can't be recovered until after a short or long rest can also be debated and adjusted for balance.
I think the trading hit points/dice for sorcery points shouldn't be in the core sorcerer, more of a subclass, possibly related to Undead creatures, but that's just my 2 cents.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You don't support a claim with an opinion, you do it with evidence.
I will repeat the question. Can you support your claim that sorcerers don't need to be changed with numbers or any evidence?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
No one can. It's an opinion. This entire thread is an opinion. Every response is an opinion. The irony of this, is your signature shouts out the fact that opinions are going to be prevalent.
So what exchange rate do you suggest? What mechanic do you suggest?
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everyone can have an opinion but they should also be able to articulate why they hold that opinion. Its really not that unreasonable to ask people to substantiate their views with reason. How else are we supposed to understand another person's view point?
Magic is supposed to be in the blood of the sorcerer. Hit points for sorcery points reflects that.
I'd rather not forward in opinion on what the exchange rate should be because I've never played a sorcerer. My suggestion is based on flavor only. I do know, though, that Treantmonk's sorcerer variant can trade hit points for sorcery points. That might be a good place to look.
So to be clear, you are insistent that the Sorcerer class should have the alterations you suggest when you have never played the class, and based solely on someone else’s homebrewed variant?
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My position is based on ensuring that the sorcerer maintains an appropriate flavor. That consideration should be the primary one before ANY numerical issue.
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ModeratorI've seen this point come up before as an explanation for why trading hit points for magic or using Constitution instead of Charisma makes sense for the sorcerer. I think this is a common misunderstanding about the origin of the sorcerer's magic. Magic isn't just in the blood of the sorcerer. It's in their "bloodline". Their magic is more than just physical, it is metaphysical and extends to their very soul.
Charisma isn't just the personality stat. It is also the soul stat. That is why Sorcerer spellcasting is based on Charisma, rather than something physical. Things in D&D that require a Charisma saving throw include: banishment, magic jar, plane shift, mirror of life trapping, and ghostly possession.
From a response on RPG Stack Exchange: "In religious studies, 'charisma' sometimes refers to the inner personal power in an individual, divinely conferred." Max Weber described Charisma as:
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Sillyva> I disagree with your premise that, in a world of magic, blood is purely physical.
I would argue that, in a world of magic, blood is as spiritual and arcane as it is material. In fact, I would warn against thinking too scientifically when analyzing things in a magical world.
You can support opinions with evidence. That is the point of this thread. The thread is to convince people that sorcerers suck as they are and need fixing, or for people to argue against that opinion. This thread is also to develop some ideas how to fix that problem. Every response tends to be an opinion supported by evidence, along with mine. My signature says, and I quote, "I have a lot of opinions on what 5e products should come out in the future, and ways previous adventures should be fixed." No where in there do I scream, I am all opinions, ignore me! I have opinions on Adventures and Needed Future Products, but my analysis of current classes are based on facts, not only opinions.
crzyhawk made a claim, and only offered an opinion to support it, I asked for evidence, and so far have received nothing.
Are opinions found in this thread? Yes.
Are they backed up with evidence? I better hope so, or I will shut up.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree, sorcerous power comes from the heart (metaphorically, not physically), same with bards, paladins, and warlocks.
I'll just shortly interject with this analysis of the 3 mental ability scores.
Intelligence comes from mind power, wizards, eldritch knights, arcane tricksters, and artificers all gain their spellcasting power from their brain.
Wisdom comes from the spirit. Spiritual power is what drives clerics, druids, and rangers.
Charisma comes from the soul/heart. Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and paladins all gain their power from their soul.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
In terms of Saves, Intelligence is the “Wait a minute, that can’t be right” save, Wisdom is the “You will not outwit me” save, and Charisma is the “You shall not pass!” save. Charisma is willpower in D&D. Sorcerers get their powers from sheer force of will. (Probably inspired in some small part by the Eddings’ Belgariad/Malloreon setting.)
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Of course, if that were true, then everyone with an 18 Cha would be able to cast Sorcerer spells. Just like Wizards don't get their spells from their Int, Sorcerers don't get their spells from their Cha. They get it from somewhere else. Cha just helps them use it. But, even a character with a Cha of 9 could be s sorcerer - not a very good sorcerer, but they could still be a sorcerer.