Telekinesis allows you to lift a 1,000 lb. object up to 60-ft. in the air. How much damage would that do if it falls onto a creature? Dexterity save against caster's DC? I've seen mentions of using trap mechanics but that just doesn't sit right with me. On the other extreme end, someone did up a chart that would have the object doing 150d6 damage. Which, you know, seems a tad excessive for a 5th-level spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
According to the rules around falling, the object would take 6d6 bludgeoning damage. If a creature was under the object, I would allow it to make a dexterity saving throw against the caster's DC. On a fail, they would be crushed and take 6d6 bludgeoning damage.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Somewhere between 4d10 (hit by falling rubble in a collapsing tunnel) and 10d10 (crushed by compacting walls), according to the DMG's table for improvising damage.
I'd fix the DC at 10, since the object's not being thrown or launched and the spellcaster's ability isn't relevant to letting the object fall. The creature has ample time to see the object being moved over its head.
According to the rules around falling, the object would take 6d6 bludgeoning damage. If a creature was under the object, I would allow it to make a dexterity saving throw against the caster's DC. On a fail, they would be crushed and take 6d6 bludgeoning damage.
6d6 seems rather wimpy for a half-ton object falling on top of you though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
I'm with Coder on the damage range - I'd likely ballpark it at 6d10 (enough to certainly kill any non-adventurer that wanders under it).
I'd also likely give it a higher DC (although a set one, not relevant to the caster's spell save DC); perhaps 14. But with a successful dexterity evading all damage. The way I see it, it's surprisingly tricky to evade something that heavy that falls on you, but since Telekinesis doesn't allow you to handle a pile of debris, it will not be a situation where you avoid most of the pile but you still get hit by random rocks for half damage - it either crushes you (or a leg, depending on the damage :p ) or you avoid it completely.
1,000 pounds. That's a lot of weight. The average heavy weapon a character swings to deal 1d6-1d10's worth of damage only weighs around 6 pounds.
10d10 is the damage someone takes when a castle (instant fortress) is dropped on them. I'd recommend using that as a starting point, even though in my opinion, that damage is low FOR DROPPING A CASTLE ON SOMEONE.
Player: I toss my Instant fortress over the sleeping dragon! Castle: Pardon me Mr. Dragon would you kindly move? *pushes the sleeping dragon* Dragon: *wakes* Dear me, I'm so sorry, let me just use my legendary action to succeed on the Dex save to avoid damge. *Dragon proceeds to destroy the castle for crushing the hoard of items it was sleeping on* Player: Well, time to go, no treasure here.
Man, I hadn't looked at that Improvised Damage table in the DMG in...maybe ever? It gives some good ballpark estimates and examples and seems to like the idea of measuring this kinda thing in d10s.
This feels like the kind of D&D debate that turns into a full-blown nerd-off delving into the physics of the situation. That said, to keep the game running, I'd cast my vote with those who have pinned this somewhere in the neighborhood of 6d10. If I were to indulge in a little nerdery, it does seem like part of choosing that die count would be relative to the size and heartiness of the creature being crushed (e.g. Is the thing falling on a dragon? Or a humanoid-sized fella?).
It's worth keeping in mind that 1000 lbs. seems like a huge number...but maybe not as huge as we imagine it. Comparable items include a grand piano, a bear, a horse...here's a super-rando URL for ya.
"There is a wide world out there, my friend, full of pain, but filled with joy as well. The former keeps you on the path of growth, and the latter makes the journey tolerable." --Montolio Debrouchee
It's worth keeping in mind that 1000 lbs. seems like a huge number...but maybe not as huge as we imagine it. Comparable items include a grand piano, a bear, a horse...here's a super-rando URL for ya.
Really, though it is a huge number. It's a massive weight. It's a half ton. It only takes a 6 pound mace blow to the head to kill you, and the same effect can be accomplished with even lighter objects. Thing is: all those things you listed will kill you if they fall on you from a height more than a few feet. Dropping such an item from 60 feet will reduce whoever it falls on to paste. The only reason it might fail to kill a player character(keyword being "might") is because player characters, at level 1, are stronger than most other humans, and continue to grow stronger as they level.
Other things that will kill you if they fall 60 feet on top of you:
Bowling ball. 16 lbs.
a (single) brick. 3.5 lbs
a load of bricks. 7-350 lbs.
Scaffold. 50 lbs.
Other human beings. 120-230 lbs. Incidentally, said other human being will also likely be dead, or at least critically wounded
Hay bale. 100 lbs. The fact that it's softer than other things on this list won't actually help you.
Watermelon. 20 lbs.
A sufficiently massed amount of water. Let's say 10 gallons worth, 83.4 lbs.
If a 1000lb object etc. landed squarely on a level 10 fighter it would almost definitely kill him. The same goes for a level 20 fighter. I haven't seen any special powers regarding being squashed in the list of fighter abilities.
But if that boulder/slab/bear falls and does 75 damage to a fighter with 100 HP, then through skills, reflexes and instincts honed over a career of avoiding being squished, the fighter leaps or rolls out of the way. He may get struck a glancing blow, or pull a few muscles, but he is still standing (maybe prone if you treat it as falling), and still has enough hit points to wrestle a small bear.
If a character is using this regularly as an attack spell, then I would personally rule 6D6 or 8d6 damage (the amount taken from a fall of 60ft or a 'normal' 3rd level area affect spell cast with a 5th level slot.) This is enough to flatten almost all 'normal' people. Even average damage is enough to kill the average black bear, and anger a brown bear. More importantly(perhaps), it would make the caster think twice about using the spell in such a way.
I do not believe you should scale this damage with the height fallen - the further it falls, the more time there is to notice it coming and scramble out of the way. Even if it is invisible.
One last thought - if the object has just fallen 60' onto a surface level with the caster, then that caster is directly underneath it.
D&D assume that, in any combat situation, the characters are constantly dodging and weaving in and out of the way, with elements of luck and dodging the like tied up into the damage. I get the feeling that its too low of damage for some because we're assuming a solid, direct hit (ie a critical or worse).
I mean, hells. Meteor Swarm only does 20d6 with bashing damage (the rest is fire damage, but we only want to talk about falling things, not explosions), so that means that slamming giant rocks from outer space falling at huge speeds onto people is only an average of 70 bashing damage. A naked bear barbarian with Rage up can shrug that off, no problem.
"Sure, I'll allow it: as long as the creatures under the block don't notice it's there."
*clatter-clatter*
*facepalms*
*sighs*
"One of the orcs is so intent on murdering the crap out of you guys he failed to see the magic envelop the piano. And it levitate away. And one of his murder-targets jump onto it. And it move directly over him. His buddy is slightly more attentive. He pokes his comrade and asks: 'What's that whistling sound?' Roll your firggin' sneak attack..."
a 1000 pounds is only 450kg. Sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. An untrained human body can survive that with only a few broken bones and bruises. An adventurer would be in a much better physical state to take it. 60ft is only 18m which isn't that high either.
a 6d6 - 10d6 is sufficient for the damage done. Its in no range of being life threatening, even for a regular individual. It won't create a huge impact on the ground either. Sure there will be minor trembling, but thats about it. But its more air displacement that anything else.
When I still competed in powerlifting, european competitions, 350-400kg was pretty standard to play around with. Running around with a 400kg Yoke over 60m distances was daily business. And I also had my fair share of accidents that resulted in some broken bones here and there. No biggie.
The things Sam_Hain mentioned are in no shape relateable to the topic. Of course a smaller object will have a bigger chance to kill you. It can penetrate your body and destroy the vitals. Even a small coin can go straight through your skull and kill you. But a huge concrete ceiling at 400-450kg won't kill you. The weight is distributed over a larger surface and most of it you won't even deal with.
Ever had a medicine ball dropped on your stomach from 3 feet?
I have, and it hurt. Every...single....time. Damned good conditioning though. Every time I see a medicine ball nowadays, I an conditioned to run like hell.
I have also seen 'fail-videos' of steroid-hyped weight lifters dropping weights from above their heads onto their heads. That looked painful too. From a height of less than 1 metre, I note (approximate length of their extended arms.)
From Wikipedia (better than some bloke down the pub, right?) : "Falling is the second leading cause of accidental death worldwide." (Number one is probably stupidity, right?)
Of course, the density and rigidity of the thing hitting you will affect the ouch factor, but anyone capable of casting a 5th level spell is not going to choose those rocks from the set of Star Trek or a giant bouncy castle.
Bottom line : Heroes should know they've been hit while ordinary people shouldn't.
I feel like part of this conversation is really about the suspended reality inherent in any RPG. Balancing the superhuman traits and abilities that a PC will have with as much realism and verisimilitude as possible is a big part of the DM craft.
Would a falling piano realistically smash you to a pulp? Sure. But hey man, it's D&D! Your PCs will also take a sword to the chest and still be up and swinging 12 seconds and one Cure Wounds casting later. It's all about good narrative (again, a semi-plausible one that blends as much realism as possible with superhuman awesomeness) and collective buy-in from everyone sitting at the table to the social contract...one clause of which covers the suspension of reality in the interest of a good ol' over-the-top role-playing experience. : )
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"There is a wide world out there, my friend, full of pain, but filled with joy as well. The former keeps you on the path of growth, and the latter makes the journey tolerable." --Montolio Debrouchee
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Telekinesis allows you to lift a 1,000 lb. object up to 60-ft. in the air. How much damage would that do if it falls onto a creature? Dexterity save against caster's DC? I've seen mentions of using trap mechanics but that just doesn't sit right with me. On the other extreme end, someone did up a chart that would have the object doing 150d6 damage. Which, you know, seems a tad excessive for a 5th-level spell.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
According to the rules around falling, the object would take 6d6 bludgeoning damage. If a creature was under the object, I would allow it to make a dexterity saving throw against the caster's DC. On a fail, they would be crushed and take 6d6 bludgeoning damage.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Somewhere between 4d10 (hit by falling rubble in a collapsing tunnel) and 10d10 (crushed by compacting walls), according to the DMG's table for improvising damage.
I'd fix the DC at 10, since the object's not being thrown or launched and the spellcaster's ability isn't relevant to letting the object fall. The creature has ample time to see the object being moved over its head.
6d6 seems rather wimpy for a half-ton object falling on top of you though.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I'm with Coder on the damage range - I'd likely ballpark it at 6d10 (enough to certainly kill any non-adventurer that wanders under it).
I'd also likely give it a higher DC (although a set one, not relevant to the caster's spell save DC); perhaps 14. But with a successful dexterity evading all damage. The way I see it, it's surprisingly tricky to evade something that heavy that falls on you, but since Telekinesis doesn't allow you to handle a pile of debris, it will not be a situation where you avoid most of the pile but you still get hit by random rocks for half damage - it either crushes you (or a leg, depending on the damage :p ) or you avoid it completely.
1,000 pounds. That's a lot of weight. The average heavy weapon a character swings to deal 1d6-1d10's worth of damage only weighs around 6 pounds.
10d10 is the damage someone takes when a castle (instant fortress) is dropped on them. I'd recommend using that as a starting point, even though in my opinion, that damage is low FOR DROPPING A CASTLE ON SOMEONE.
Current Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
It pushes you to an unoccupied space somehow, so you're not taking all of the damage you'd take if you were crushed under it.
Still... even a magic castle that politely moves you aside as it crashes to earth it bound to leave a mark on the local geography.
Current Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
Player: I toss my Instant fortress over the sleeping dragon!
Castle: Pardon me Mr. Dragon would you kindly move? *pushes the sleeping dragon*
Dragon: *wakes* Dear me, I'm so sorry, let me just use my legendary action to succeed on the Dex save to avoid damge.
*Dragon proceeds to destroy the castle for crushing the hoard of items it was sleeping on*
Player: Well, time to go, no treasure here.
Man, I hadn't looked at that Improvised Damage table in the DMG in...maybe ever? It gives some good ballpark estimates and examples and seems to like the idea of measuring this kinda thing in d10s.
This feels like the kind of D&D debate that turns into a full-blown nerd-off delving into the physics of the situation. That said, to keep the game running, I'd cast my vote with those who have pinned this somewhere in the neighborhood of 6d10. If I were to indulge in a little nerdery, it does seem like part of choosing that die count would be relative to the size and heartiness of the creature being crushed (e.g. Is the thing falling on a dragon? Or a humanoid-sized fella?).
It's worth keeping in mind that 1000 lbs. seems like a huge number...but maybe not as huge as we imagine it. Comparable items include a grand piano, a bear, a horse...here's a super-rando URL for ya.
"There is a wide world out there, my friend, full of pain, but filled with joy as well. The former keeps you on the path of growth, and the latter makes the journey tolerable." --Montolio Debrouchee
Really, though it is a huge number. It's a massive weight. It's a half ton. It only takes a 6 pound mace blow to the head to kill you, and the same effect can be accomplished with even lighter objects. Thing is: all those things you listed will kill you if they fall on you from a height more than a few feet. Dropping such an item from 60 feet will reduce whoever it falls on to paste. The only reason it might fail to kill a player character(keyword being "might") is because player characters, at level 1, are stronger than most other humans, and continue to grow stronger as they level.
Other things that will kill you if they fall 60 feet on top of you:
The list goes on and on.
Current Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
If a 1000lb object etc. landed squarely on a level 10 fighter it would almost definitely kill him. The same goes for a level 20 fighter.
I haven't seen any special powers regarding being squashed in the list of fighter abilities.
But if that boulder/slab/bear falls and does 75 damage to a fighter with 100 HP, then through skills, reflexes and instincts honed over a career of avoiding being squished, the fighter leaps or rolls out of the way. He may get struck a glancing blow, or pull a few muscles, but he is still standing (maybe prone if you treat it as falling), and still has enough hit points to wrestle a small bear.
If a character is using this regularly as an attack spell, then I would personally rule 6D6 or 8d6 damage (the amount taken from a fall of 60ft or a 'normal' 3rd level area affect spell cast with a 5th level slot.) This is enough to flatten almost all 'normal' people. Even average damage is enough to kill the average black bear, and anger a brown bear. More importantly(perhaps), it would make the caster think twice about using the spell in such a way.
I do not believe you should scale this damage with the height fallen - the further it falls, the more time there is to notice it coming and scramble out of the way. Even if it is invisible.
One last thought - if the object has just fallen 60' onto a surface level with the caster, then that caster is directly underneath it.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
D&D assume that, in any combat situation, the characters are constantly dodging and weaving in and out of the way, with elements of luck and dodging the like tied up into the damage. I get the feeling that its too low of damage for some because we're assuming a solid, direct hit (ie a critical or worse).
I mean, hells. Meteor Swarm only does 20d6 with bashing damage (the rest is fire damage, but we only want to talk about falling things, not explosions), so that means that slamming giant rocks from outer space falling at huge speeds onto people is only an average of 70 bashing damage. A naked bear barbarian with Rage up can shrug that off, no problem.
My rogue is 'sky-surfing' the 1000lb block of plummeting death, guiding it's brief fall; can I add my sneak attack dice to the damage?
Roleplaying since Runequest.
"Sure, I'll allow it: as long as the creatures under the block don't notice it's there."
*clatter-clatter*
*facepalms*
*sighs*
"One of the orcs is so intent on murdering the crap out of you guys he failed to see the magic envelop the piano. And it levitate away. And one of his murder-targets jump onto it. And it move directly over him. His buddy is slightly more attentive. He pokes his comrade and asks: 'What's that whistling sound?' Roll your firggin' sneak attack..."
Current Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
"What do you call a dwarf that's had a 1000 lb piano drop on him (or her) from 60 ft?"
Incredibly racist joke - I mean, why can't dwarves get jobs as accountants, bakers, corporate restructuring managers etc. ?
I suppose it comes down to language again. "Son, the world is your oyster. There are thousands of jobs out there; take your pick!"
Roleplaying since Runequest.
So... what do you call a dwarf that's had a 1,000 lb piano dropped on them from 60 feet?
Current Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
a 1000 pounds is only 450kg. Sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. An untrained human body can survive that with only a few broken bones and bruises. An adventurer would be in a much better physical state to take it. 60ft is only 18m which isn't that high either.
a 6d6 - 10d6 is sufficient for the damage done. Its in no range of being life threatening, even for a regular individual. It won't create a huge impact on the ground either. Sure there will be minor trembling, but thats about it. But its more air displacement that anything else.
When I still competed in powerlifting, european competitions, 350-400kg was pretty standard to play around with. Running around with a 400kg Yoke over 60m distances was daily business. And I also had my fair share of accidents that resulted in some broken bones here and there. No biggie.
The things Sam_Hain mentioned are in no shape relateable to the topic. Of course a smaller object will have a bigger chance to kill you. It can penetrate your body and destroy the vitals. Even a small coin can go straight through your skull and kill you. But a huge concrete ceiling at 400-450kg won't kill you. The weight is distributed over a larger surface and most of it you won't even deal with.
Ever had a medicine ball dropped on your stomach from 3 feet?
I have, and it hurt. Every...single....time. Damned good conditioning though.
Every time I see a medicine ball nowadays, I an conditioned to run like hell.
I have also seen 'fail-videos' of steroid-hyped weight lifters dropping weights from above their heads onto their heads. That looked painful too. From a height of less than 1 metre, I note (approximate length of their extended arms.)
From Wikipedia (better than some bloke down the pub, right?) : "Falling is the second leading cause of accidental death worldwide." (Number one is probably stupidity, right?)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_(accident))
Of course, the density and rigidity of the thing hitting you will affect the ouch factor, but anyone capable of casting a 5th level spell is not going to choose those rocks from the set of Star Trek or a giant bouncy castle.
Bottom line : Heroes should know they've been hit while ordinary people shouldn't.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
I feel like part of this conversation is really about the suspended reality inherent in any RPG. Balancing the superhuman traits and abilities that a PC will have with as much realism and verisimilitude as possible is a big part of the DM craft.
Would a falling piano realistically smash you to a pulp? Sure. But hey man, it's D&D! Your PCs will also take a sword to the chest and still be up and swinging 12 seconds and one Cure Wounds casting later. It's all about good narrative (again, a semi-plausible one that blends as much realism as possible with superhuman awesomeness) and collective buy-in from everyone sitting at the table to the social contract...one clause of which covers the suspension of reality in the interest of a good ol' over-the-top role-playing experience. : )
"There is a wide world out there, my friend, full of pain, but filled with joy as well. The former keeps you on the path of growth, and the latter makes the journey tolerable." --Montolio Debrouchee