We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
They removed the cost entirely.
No, they didn’t; if the feature changed the cost, it would say so, based on the UA version and all other class features that reduce the cost. As I outlined above, the Doylist reading of scribing any spell is “it costs you 50 gp/spell level to scribe a spell because game balance”; arguing that a ribbon feature on a subclass creates a Watsonian justification for it doesn’t hold up because the Watsonian explanation of the core feature is an after the fact cosmetic justification for the rule, not the basis of the rule itself. It costs 50 gp/level to scribe a spell regardless of whether or not you have an infinite source of ink for the same reason that barring explicitly described exceptions you can’t cast two ninth level spells in one day whether or not you currently have the “magical power” to cast one 9th level and about two dozen weaker spells. The requirements are fixed, not contextual, and only something that explicitly interacts with the cost itself can alter it.
The default rules for copying a spell into your book are fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. The quill cannot interface with them.
The rules the quill provides then must be standalone. And it lists no cost. So there is none. Which makes sense since it creates its own ink.
The quill says this:
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
It doesn't say you can copy spells into your spellbook with the quill. It says that you gain benefits if you use the quill for copying. With this line of text alone, you cannot copy spells into your spell book. You need the normal rules for copying spells for this line of text to do anything.
Also worth noting that if this text stands completely independent to the normal spell copying rules, you can, while using the quill, copy cantrips, spells that aren't on the Wizard spell list, and spells that you aren't of a high enough level to cast. Those are all things that are covered in the normal spell transcription rules, but aren't here.
The quill creates its own ink. As a subclass feature it only can do what it says.
It doesn't say you can use it with special inks purchased for scribing scrolls. So you can't.
As a subclass feature, it can only do what it says. It says it creates a quill. Quills can write. With ink. I don't know what the hell to tell you.
The feature doesn't say that the quill experiences gravity. Or that it's visible. But those things are kinda assumed, based on the fact that it's a quill.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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It has its own ink. You cannot use special ink with it. I don't know what to tell you. Subclass features only do what they say. This one very specifically uses its own ink, not some 3rd party ink.
I thought we covered all of this in this thread multiple times already?
The idea that the quill rules somehow totally replace all rules for copying spells into your spellbook has no basis.
The Your Spellbook section under Spellcasting is very clear about how copying spells works, and how it takes 2 hours and 50 gp per level. The Wizardly Quill rules say if you use the quill to do the copying it takes 2 minutes per level.
The only part of the spellbook rules that the quill can possibly override is the time taken, which is now 2 minutes instead of 2 hours. That's it. There is no reason whatsoever to think that it means anything else no matter what timeline or universe you originate from.
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It has its own ink. You cannot use special ink with it. I don't know what to tell you. Subclass features only do what they say. This one very specifically uses its own ink, not some 3rd party ink.
It says it "does not require" ink. That does not mean it is incapable of using other ink, just as a player who has the "Aspect of the Moon" invocation still has the option to sleep if they wish to, they just can function without it.
And, as I've previously said, fixating on the concept of the ink is a false premise because the 50 gp cost is not simply representative of ink. It's an abstraction of "material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it"; while the flavor does clash with the rapid scribing speed, it doesn't overwrite the fact that- in the same way priced spell components call for an item "worth X gp" rather than a fixed quantity or other attribute more appropriate to describing the necessary qualities of a component used in a reaction- the gp cost cannot be tied to any specific source you can circumvent with a clever argument, only features that explicitly describe a change in the cost.
It says it "does not require" ink. That does not mean it is incapable of using other ink, just as a player who has the "Aspect of the Moon" invocation still has the option to sleep if they wish to, they just can function without it.
Yeah, we also have a few ranged weapons in the game that don't require ammunition, but you can still load special ammunition into them if you want to. Of course I can't remember what any of them are off hand, except for the Repeating Shot Artificer infusion which lets you turn any ranged weapon into one.
Actually, I took a quick look and a dragon wing bow is one of them, it's a bit more specific in its wording ("if you don't load ammunition…") but it's the same basic idea; it's a bow that doesn't require ammunition, just as the quill doesn't require ink. So there's absolutely precedent for the quill to function the same way, i.e- if you put ink on it, it'll use that, otherwise it'll make some.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It has its own ink. You cannot use special ink with it. I don't know what to tell you. Subclass features only do what they say. This one very specifically uses its own ink, not some 3rd party ink.
It says it "does not require" ink. That does not mean it is incapable of using other ink, just as a player who has the "Aspect of the Moon" invocation still has the option to sleep if they wish to, they just can function without it.
A subclass feature cannot do stuff it doesn't say. It very literally doesn't say it can do what you're claiming it can do here. So it can't.
It is a: subclass feature.
It only does what it says.
And, as I've previously said, fixating on the concept of the ink is a false premise because the 50 gp cost is not simply representative of ink. It's an abstraction of "material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it"; while the flavor does clash with the rapid scribing speed, it doesn't overwrite the fact that- in the same way priced spell components call for an item "worth X gp" rather than a fixed quantity or other attribute more appropriate to describing the necessary qualities of a component used in a reaction- the gp cost cannot be tied to any specific source you can circumvent with a clever argument, only features that explicitly describe a change in the cost.
That rule is fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. You can not use the quill with magical inks. They're incompatible entirely.
Instead, you use the rules provided by the subclass feature itself. It has no listed cost, so there is not one.
It says it "does not require" ink. That does not mean it is incapable of using other ink, just as a player who has the "Aspect of the Moon" invocation still has the option to sleep if they wish to, they just can function without it.
Yeah, we also have a few ranged weapons in the game that don't require ammunition, but you can still load special ammunition into them if you want to. Of course I can't remember what any of them are off hand, except for the Repeating Shot Artificer infusion which lets you turn any ranged weapon into one.
Actually, I took a quick look and a dragon wing bow is one of them, it's a bit more specific in its wording ("if you don't load ammunition…") but it's the same basic idea; it's a bow that doesn't require ammunition, just as the quill doesn't require ink. So there's absolutely precent for the quill to function the same way, i.e- if you put ink on it, it'll use that, otherwise it'll make some.
You keep acting like this is an item you purchased in adventuring goods.
It isn't.
It is a subclass feature. They don't work that way. They do ONLY what they say they do.
First of all, no magic ink is necessary. It's just really good ink.
Second of all: It's a quill. The subclass feature says it's a quill. You cannot possibly deny that it's a quill Quills can write with ink.
Again, the subclass feature doesn't say that the quill is visible. Are you claiming that the quill is always invisible due to the fact that nothing in the feature says that it is?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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First of all, no magic ink is necessary. It's just really good ink.
Second of all: It's a quill. The subclass feature says it's a quill. You cannot possibly deny that it's a quill Quills can write with ink.
Again, the subclass feature doesn't say that the quill is visible. Are you claiming that the quill is always invisible due to the fact that nothing in the feature says that it is?
Being invisible requires it to say it is invisible. It doesn't, so it isn't. Subclass features ONLY do what they say they do.
I'm not sure why yall trying to grant this subclass ability additional effects it doesn't have. It isn't invisible, and it can't be used with 3rd party inks. It makes its own inks, it says so right in the text of the ability.
It isn't at all ambiguous about it either.
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
It always produces its own ink. It is black and white clear on that fact. (Though the ink is any color you like!)
It says nothing about being able to use different inks. It can't. End.
First of all, no magic ink is necessary. It's just really good ink.
Second of all: It's a quill. The subclass feature says it's a quill. You cannot possibly deny that it's a quill Quills can write with ink.
Again, the subclass feature doesn't say that the quill is visible. Are you claiming that the quill is always invisible due to the fact that nothing in the feature says that it is?
Being invisible requires it to say it is invisible. It doesn't, so it isn't. Subclass features ONLY do what they say they do.
If there were a subclass feature that said just "You can summon a quill," would you argue that it would be entirely unusable because it doesn't say you can put ink into it?
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
It always produces its own ink. It is black and white clear on that fact. (Though the ink is any color you like!)
All (non-empty) quills produce ink on writing surfaces when you write with them. Nothing about this statement says that it always produces its own ink. It does say that, no matter what kind of ink is in it, you can choose its color, but that's really the only special thing about this statement.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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First of all, no magic ink is necessary. It's just really good ink.
Second of all: It's a quill. The subclass feature says it's a quill. You cannot possibly deny that it's a quill Quills can write with ink.
Again, the subclass feature doesn't say that the quill is visible. Are you claiming that the quill is always invisible due to the fact that nothing in the feature says that it is?
Being invisible requires it to say it is invisible. It doesn't, so it isn't. Subclass features ONLY do what they say they do.
If there were a subclass feature that said just "You can summon a quill," would you argue that it would be entirely unusable because it doesn't say you can put ink into it?
That's not what this feature does.
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
It always produces its own ink. It is black and white clear on that fact. (Though the ink is any color you like!)
All (non-empty) quills produce ink on writing surfaces when you write with them.
No, they do not. That's just factually wrong. You have to provide ink for a normal quill to work. They don't produce their own ink. That's not how quills work.
Nothing about this statement says that it always produces its own ink.
Yes, it does. It very clearly says the quill produces its own ink. This is unequivocally true what are you talking about???
It does say that, no matter what kind of ink is in it, you can choose its color, but that's really the only special thing about this statement.
No. it says it produces its own ink. Read it again.
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
First of all, no magic ink is necessary. It's just really good ink.
Second of all: It's a quill. The subclass feature says it's a quill. You cannot possibly deny that it's a quill Quills can write with ink.
Again, the subclass feature doesn't say that the quill is visible. Are you claiming that the quill is always invisible due to the fact that nothing in the feature says that it is?
Being invisible requires it to say it is invisible. It doesn't, so it isn't. Subclass features ONLY do what they say they do.
If there were a subclass feature that said just "You can summon a quill," would you argue that it would be entirely unusable because it doesn't say you can put ink into it?
That's not what this feature does.
Fine. If there were a subclass feature that just said "As a bonus action, you can magically create a Tiny quill in your free hand," would you argue that it would be entirely unusable because it doesn't say that you can put ink into it?
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
It always produces its own ink. It is black and white clear on that fact. (Though the ink is any color you like!)
All (non-empty) quills produce ink on writing surfaces when you write with them.
No, they do not. That's just factually wrong. You have to provide ink for a normal quill to work. They don't produce their own ink. That's not how quills work.
Nothing about this statement says that it always produces its own ink.
Yes, it does. It very clearly says the quill produces its own ink. This is unequivocally true what are you talking about???
It does say that, no matter what kind of ink is in it, you can choose its color, but that's really the only special thing about this statement.
No. it says it produces its own ink. Read it again.
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
Producing doesn't always mean apparating from nothing. Normal pens are described as producing ink all the time. That doesn't mean they're creating the ink as they go, it means that they're providing ink from within them to be made visible. I'm not sure if you've just never heard the word used in that context or something, but it's definitely a valid use of the word.
Here's an example of a sentence with the word produce: "John produced a sheet of paper from his pocket." Can we agree that, in this example, John is not manufacturing the paper, but instead taking it from a reservoir and making it visible? Like any pen/quill would do with ink stored inside of it?
I'm not going to argue the definition of the word "produce" with you any further, by the way. Contest this use of the word all you like. All the people here who have listened to the English language being spoken longer than you have will disagree with you, and your only possible counterargument would be "but I've never heard it used that way!" I'd prefer for us to avoid that.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Producing doesn't always mean apparating from nothing. Normal pens are described as producing ink all the time. That doesn't mean they're creating the ink as they go, it means that they're providing ink from within them to be made visible. I'm not sure if you've just never heard the word used in that context or something, but it's definitely a valid use of the word.
Have you read the feature we're talking about? The ink is produced by the quill. It is magical. The quill produces it, and because it produces its own ink it doesn't need ink. We know this because the feature says this explicitly.
Here's an example of a sentence with the word produce: "John produced a sheet of paper from his pocket." Can we agree that, in this example, John is not manufacturing the paper, but instead taking it from a reservoir and making it visible? Like any pen/quill would do with ink stored inside of it?
I'm not going to argue the definition of the word "produce" with you any further, by the way. Contest this use of the word all you like. All the people here who have listened to the English language being spoken longer than you have will disagree with you, and your only possible counterargument would be "but I've never heard it used that way!" I'd prefer for us to avoid that.
...
You magically create a magic quill that magically produces its own ink.
...
Read, the ability.
...
The ability causes the ink to be produced from the quill each and every time you write with it. You can't use 3rd party inks with it. Why?
As a subclass ability it doesn't say you can. So you can't.
Whenever you write with it it produces its own ink. You have no control over this, it just happens. You only get to pick the color. The quill must produce its own ink. That's what it says it does.
Producing doesn't always mean apparating from nothing. Normal pens are described as producing ink all the time. That doesn't mean they're creating the ink as they go, it means that they're providing ink from within them to be made visible. I'm not sure if you've just never heard the word used in that context or something, but it's definitely a valid use of the word.
Have you read the feature we're talking about? The ink is produced by the quill. It is magical. The quill produces it, and because it produces its own ink it doesn't need ink. We know this because the feature says this explicitly.
I'm saying that your definition of "produce" is restricting the possibility of the quill producing the ink from a normal reservoir instead of a magical one. The word "produce" can mean to make visible from a tangible reservoir.
Here's an example of a sentence with the word produce: "John produced a sheet of paper from his pocket." Can we agree that, in this example, John is not manufacturing the paper, but instead taking it from a reservoir and making it visible? Like any pen/quill would do with ink stored inside of it?
I'm not going to argue the definition of the word "produce" with you any further, by the way. Contest this use of the word all you like. All the people here who have listened to the English language being spoken longer than you have will disagree with you, and your only possible counterargument would be "but I've never heard it used that way!" I'd prefer for us to avoid that.
...
You magically create a magic quill that magically produces its own ink.
...
Read, the ability.
...
The ability causes the ink to be produced from the quill each and every time you write with it. You can't use 3rd party inks with it. Why?
As a subclass ability it doesn't say you can. So you can't.
As a subclass ability, it also doesn't say that you can draw with it. Just that you can write. Despite this, it's assumed that you can draw with it because it's defined as a quill, and quills can logically do things like draw. And be filled with ink.
Again, if there were a subclass feature that just says "As a bonus action, you can magically create a Tiny quill in your free hand," you'd still be able to do things like fill the quill with ink and write with it, even though the subclass feature doesn't say that you can do those things, because the subclass feature does say that it creates a quill, and the game doesn't want or need to spell out everything that a quill can do.
2. Whenever you write with it it produces its own ink. You have no control over this, it just happens. You only get to pick the color. The quill must produce its own ink. That's what it says it does.
It says that it produces ink. Whether that's from a magical reservoir or a normal one isn't specified. I agree that it will always produce ink, since the feature says that, and I also agree that you can choose the color of the ink that comes out, since the feature also says that, but I don't agree that it will always produce ink out of nothing. If it's writing with normal, tangible ink that's in a physically present reservoir, that's still producing ink, and so it's still doing what the first bullet point says it does.
Normal pens produce ink. Are you going to try to argue against this statement? Again, I'd recommend not doing so.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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As written, the magic quill only facilitate the transcribing portion. It doesn’t require ink as it produce some and cut down on the time spent to copy a spell into your spell book to 2 minutes per spell level as opposed to 2 hours normally. But it doesn't say you don't have to first reproduce basic form of the spell, decipher the unique system of notation, practice it until sounds and gestures are understood or provide cost, which represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it, which the latter is handled by the magic quill.
Let's say that we assume the Wizardly Quill can only use the ink it produces (which I'm pretty sure most of us don't agree with, but for the sake of argument). This would mean it would contradict the normal spell copying rules requirement for "fine inks you need to record [the spell]".
From that we have two possible conclusions, either a) the Wizardly Quill cannot be used to copy spells at all, or b) the Wizardly Quill can produce "fine ink" when required. Both of these are something of a logical leap though.
We can discount a) because we know that the Wizardly Quill can be used to copy spells, as the second bullet point makes this clear; not only can you use the quill when copying spells, it takes 2 minutes per spell level, replacing the normal 2 hours per spell level (because specific beats general).
So if the quill must* be able to produce fine ink, then the only other part of the spell copying rules it overrides is the need to buy fine ink.
However we don't actually know what fine ink costs, we only know that it costs some part of the 50 gp per level. That 50 gp per level also includes "material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it". So those determined for a Wizardly Quill to make spell copying free will say "ah, but what about spells that don't require material components?".
But the answer to that is "what about them? And what about those that do?" Because the rule doesn't tell us that only spells with material components require material components for practising, and there are spells that would be far more expensive than 50 gp per level, such as glyph of warding which requires 200 gp of material for every hour long attempt. So clearly the material components required for practising/copying a spell are not the same as those required to actually cast the final spell. Even if we assumed they were (a big if), you would be assuming that spells that don't have material components normally require a full 50 gp per level of ink to copy them into a spellbook, compared to spells with material components which don't. Well why would that be the case?
Ultimately the copying rule gives you no reason to believe that meeting the "fine ink" requirement means the 50 gp per level cost is waived, because it gives you no reason to assume that the other costs are optional or conditional. So even if you assume the quill can produce "fine ink" the rules are exactly the same; copying the spell has a cost of 2 minutes and 50 gp per level. You might be able to argue for a discount from your DM, especially for spells without material components, but they're under no obligation to give that to you.
*And that's only assuming the quill can produce fine ink, which we don't need to. It's a quill; it not needing ink and being able to produce its own doesn't mean you can't use other inks, so it being able to produce fine ink is a logical leap to begin with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Let's talk about general rules and specific rules as they pertain to the wizardly quill. The general rule for copying spells tells us that there is a time and a cost to do so. And we know that a general rule is in effect as long as something in the game doesn’t explicitly say otherwise. The quill feature explicitly changes the time involved in copying a spell, so the exception wins. The quill does not explicitly change the cost involved, so both the general rule and the specific rule apply to the cost of copying a spell. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it You could make an argument that the normal ink is not required when using the wizardly quill, which produces its own ink, but there are two issues with this argument:
The ink does not represent the whole of the cost of copying the spell. In fact, we don't know how much of that cost is represented by the ink.
We don't know that the ink produced by the quill is an acceptable substitute for the fine ink required to copy a spell.
The automatic production of ink is a separate bullet point from the changes to copying a spell.
It never explicitly says quill-produced ink works in place of the fine ink required to copy a spell. The quill doesn't require ink, but the copying process does.
I think it is reasonable to infer that the quill can do all of these things. And I think it's reasonable to infer that it cannot. Either way, it's an inference rather than something the written rules tell us.
The logic that Wizardly Quill doesn't require ink but still can would infer undeads don't require air, food, drink, or sleep but still can. I think it's a verbiage that assume it does not.
Undead Nature. A skeleton doesn’t require air, food, drink, or sleep.
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As a subclass feature, it can only do what it says. It says it creates a quill. Quills can write. With ink. I don't know what the hell to tell you.
The feature doesn't say that the quill experiences gravity. Or that it's visible. But those things are kinda assumed, based on the fact that it's a quill.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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It has its own ink. You cannot use special ink with it. I don't know what to tell you. Subclass features only do what they say. This one very specifically uses its own ink, not some 3rd party ink.
I got quotes!
I thought we covered all of this in this thread multiple times already?
The idea that the quill rules somehow totally replace all rules for copying spells into your spellbook has no basis.
The Your Spellbook section under Spellcasting is very clear about how copying spells works, and how it takes 2 hours and 50 gp per level. The Wizardly Quill rules say if you use the quill to do the copying it takes 2 minutes per level.
The only part of the spellbook rules that the quill can possibly override is the time taken, which is now 2 minutes instead of 2 hours. That's it. There is no reason whatsoever to think that it means anything else no matter what timeline or universe you originate from.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It says it "does not require" ink. That does not mean it is incapable of using other ink, just as a player who has the "Aspect of the Moon" invocation still has the option to sleep if they wish to, they just can function without it.
And, as I've previously said, fixating on the concept of the ink is a false premise because the 50 gp cost is not simply representative of ink. It's an abstraction of "material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it"; while the flavor does clash with the rapid scribing speed, it doesn't overwrite the fact that- in the same way priced spell components call for an item "worth X gp" rather than a fixed quantity or other attribute more appropriate to describing the necessary qualities of a component used in a reaction- the gp cost cannot be tied to any specific source you can circumvent with a clever argument, only features that explicitly describe a change in the cost.
Yeah, we also have a few ranged weapons in the game that don't require ammunition, but you can still load special ammunition into them if you want to. Of course I can't remember what any of them are off hand, except for the Repeating Shot Artificer infusion which lets you turn any ranged weapon into one.
Actually, I took a quick look and a dragon wing bow is one of them, it's a bit more specific in its wording ("if you don't load ammunition…") but it's the same basic idea; it's a bow that doesn't require ammunition, just as the quill doesn't require ink. So there's absolutely precedent for the quill to function the same way, i.e- if you put ink on it, it'll use that, otherwise it'll make some.
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It is also worth pointing out that the gold cost of scribing a spell into a Wizard's spell book encompasses more than just the ink.
"The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it." - https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/wizard#LearningSpellsof1stLevelandHigher
A subclass feature cannot do stuff it doesn't say. It very literally doesn't say it can do what you're claiming it can do here. So it can't.
It is a: subclass feature.
It only does what it says.
That rule is fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. You can not use the quill with magical inks. They're incompatible entirely.
Instead, you use the rules provided by the subclass feature itself. It has no listed cost, so there is not one.
I got quotes!
You keep acting like this is an item you purchased in adventuring goods.
It isn't.
It is a subclass feature. They don't work that way. They do ONLY what they say they do.
I got quotes!
First of all, no magic ink is necessary. It's just really good ink.
Second of all:
It's a quill.
The subclass feature says it's a quill.
You cannot possibly deny that it's a quill
Quills can write with ink.
Again, the subclass feature doesn't say that the quill is visible. Are you claiming that the quill is always invisible due to the fact that nothing in the feature says that it is?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Being invisible requires it to say it is invisible. It doesn't, so it isn't. Subclass features ONLY do what they say they do.
I'm not sure why yall trying to grant this subclass ability additional effects it doesn't have. It isn't invisible, and it can't be used with 3rd party inks. It makes its own inks, it says so right in the text of the ability.
It isn't at all ambiguous about it either.
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
It always produces its own ink. It is black and white clear on that fact. (Though the ink is any color you like!)
It says nothing about being able to use different inks. It can't. End.
I got quotes!
If there were a subclass feature that said just "You can summon a quill," would you argue that it would be entirely unusable because it doesn't say you can put ink into it?
All (non-empty) quills produce ink on writing surfaces when you write with them. Nothing about this statement says that it always produces its own ink. It does say that, no matter what kind of ink is in it, you can choose its color, but that's really the only special thing about this statement.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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That's not what this feature does.
No, they do not. That's just factually wrong. You have to provide ink for a normal quill to work. They don't produce their own ink. That's not how quills work.
Yes, it does. It very clearly says the quill produces its own ink. This is unequivocally true what are you talking about???
No. it says it produces its own ink. Read it again.
"When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface."
I got quotes!
Fine. If there were a subclass feature that just said "As a bonus action, you can magically create a Tiny quill in your free hand," would you argue that it would be entirely unusable because it doesn't say that you can put ink into it?
Producing doesn't always mean apparating from nothing. Normal pens are described as producing ink all the time. That doesn't mean they're creating the ink as they go, it means that they're providing ink from within them to be made visible. I'm not sure if you've just never heard the word used in that context or something, but it's definitely a valid use of the word.
Here's an example of a sentence with the word produce:
"John produced a sheet of paper from his pocket."
Can we agree that, in this example, John is not manufacturing the paper, but instead taking it from a reservoir and making it visible? Like any pen/quill would do with ink stored inside of it?
I'm not going to argue the definition of the word "produce" with you any further, by the way. Contest this use of the word all you like. All the people here who have listened to the English language being spoken longer than you have will disagree with you, and your only possible counterargument would be "but I've never heard it used that way!" I'd prefer for us to avoid that.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Have you read the feature we're talking about? The ink is produced by the quill. It is magical. The quill produces it, and because it produces its own ink it doesn't need ink. We know this because the feature says this explicitly.
...
You magically create a magic quill that magically produces its own ink.
...
Read, the ability.
...
The ability causes the ink to be produced from the quill each and every time you write with it. You can't use 3rd party inks with it. Why?
I got quotes!
I'm saying that your definition of "produce" is restricting the possibility of the quill producing the ink from a normal reservoir instead of a magical one. The word "produce" can mean to make visible from a tangible reservoir.
As a subclass ability, it also doesn't say that you can draw with it. Just that you can write. Despite this, it's assumed that you can draw with it because it's defined as a quill, and quills can logically do things like draw. And be filled with ink.
Again, if there were a subclass feature that just says "As a bonus action, you can magically create a Tiny quill in your free hand," you'd still be able to do things like fill the quill with ink and write with it, even though the subclass feature doesn't say that you can do those things, because the subclass feature does say that it creates a quill, and the game doesn't want or need to spell out everything that a quill can do.
It says that it produces ink. Whether that's from a magical reservoir or a normal one isn't specified. I agree that it will always produce ink, since the feature says that, and I also agree that you can choose the color of the ink that comes out, since the feature also says that, but I don't agree that it will always produce ink out of nothing. If it's writing with normal, tangible ink that's in a physically present reservoir, that's still producing ink, and so it's still doing what the first bullet point says it does.
Normal pens produce ink.
Are you going to try to argue against this statement? Again, I'd recommend not doing so.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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As written, the magic quill only facilitate the transcribing portion. It doesn’t require ink as it produce some and cut down on the time spent to copy a spell into your spell book to 2 minutes per spell level as opposed to 2 hours normally. But it doesn't say you don't have to first reproduce basic form of the spell, decipher the unique system of notation, practice it until sounds and gestures are understood or provide cost, which represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it, which the latter is handled by the magic quill.
The line of argument here is so weird.
Let's say that we assume the Wizardly Quill can only use the ink it produces (which I'm pretty sure most of us don't agree with, but for the sake of argument). This would mean it would contradict the normal spell copying rules requirement for "fine inks you need to record [the spell]".
From that we have two possible conclusions, either a) the Wizardly Quill cannot be used to copy spells at all, or b) the Wizardly Quill can produce "fine ink" when required. Both of these are something of a logical leap though.
We can discount a) because we know that the Wizardly Quill can be used to copy spells, as the second bullet point makes this clear; not only can you use the quill when copying spells, it takes 2 minutes per spell level, replacing the normal 2 hours per spell level (because specific beats general).
So if the quill must* be able to produce fine ink, then the only other part of the spell copying rules it overrides is the need to buy fine ink.
However we don't actually know what fine ink costs, we only know that it costs some part of the 50 gp per level. That 50 gp per level also includes "material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it". So those determined for a Wizardly Quill to make spell copying free will say "ah, but what about spells that don't require material components?".
But the answer to that is "what about them? And what about those that do?" Because the rule doesn't tell us that only spells with material components require material components for practising, and there are spells that would be far more expensive than 50 gp per level, such as glyph of warding which requires 200 gp of material for every hour long attempt. So clearly the material components required for practising/copying a spell are not the same as those required to actually cast the final spell. Even if we assumed they were (a big if), you would be assuming that spells that don't have material components normally require a full 50 gp per level of ink to copy them into a spellbook, compared to spells with material components which don't. Well why would that be the case?
Ultimately the copying rule gives you no reason to believe that meeting the "fine ink" requirement means the 50 gp per level cost is waived, because it gives you no reason to assume that the other costs are optional or conditional. So even if you assume the quill can produce "fine ink" the rules are exactly the same; copying the spell has a cost of 2 minutes and 50 gp per level. You might be able to argue for a discount from your DM, especially for spells without material components, but they're under no obligation to give that to you.
*And that's only assuming the quill can produce fine ink, which we don't need to. It's a quill; it not needing ink and being able to produce its own doesn't mean you can't use other inks, so it being able to produce fine ink is a logical leap to begin with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I'd say pen or quill don't produce anything, their ink was created before.
Modern pen expand already produced ink from an internal container.
Mundane old Ink and quill expand already produced ink from external container.
The magic quill expand ink produce out of nothing.
Let's talk about general rules and specific rules as they pertain to the wizardly quill. The general rule for copying spells tells us that there is a time and a cost to do so. And we know that a general rule is in effect as long as something in the game doesn’t explicitly say otherwise. The quill feature explicitly changes the time involved in copying a spell, so the exception wins. The quill does not explicitly change the cost involved, so both the general rule and the specific rule apply to the cost of copying a spell. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it You could make an argument that the normal ink is not required when using the wizardly quill, which produces its own ink, but there are two issues with this argument:
I think it is reasonable to infer that the quill can do all of these things. And I think it's reasonable to infer that it cannot. Either way, it's an inference rather than something the written rules tell us.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The logic that Wizardly Quill doesn't require ink but still can would infer undeads don't require air, food, drink, or sleep but still can. I think it's a verbiage that assume it does not.