Let's say that we assume the Wizardly Quill can only use the ink it produces (which I'm pretty sure most of us don't agree with, but for the sake of argument). This would mean it would contradict the normal spell copying rules requirement for "fine inks you need to record [the spell]".
From that we have two possible conclusions, either a) the Wizardly Quill cannot be used to copy spells at all, or b) the Wizardly Quill can produce "fine ink" when required. Both of these are something of a logical leap though.
We can discount a) because we know that the Wizardly Quill can be used to copy spells, as the second bullet point makes this clear; not only can you use the quill when copying spells, it takes 2 minutes per spell level, replacing the normal 2 hours per spell level (because specific beats general).
So if the quill must* be able to produce fine ink, then the only other part of the spell copying rules it overrides is the need to buy fine ink.
However we don't actually know what fine ink costs, we only know that it costs some part of the 50 gp per level. That 50 gp per level also includes "material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it". So those determined for a Wizardly Quill to make spell copying free will say "ah, but what about spells that don't require material components?".
But the answer to that is "what about them? And what about those that do?" Because the rule doesn't tell us that only spells with material components require material components for practising, and there are spells that would be far more expensive than 50 gp per level, such as glyph of warding which requires 200 gp of material for every hour long attempt. So clearly the material components required for practising/copying a spell are not the same as those required to actually cast the final spell. Even if we assumed they were (a big if), you would be assuming that spells that don't have material components normally require a full 50 gp per level of ink to copy them into a spellbook, compared to spells with material components which don't. Well why would that be the case?
Ultimately the copying rule gives you no reason to believe that meeting the "fine ink" requirement means the 50 gp per level cost is waived, because it gives you no reason to assume that the other costs are optional or conditional. So even if you assume the quill can produce "fine ink" the rules are exactly the same; copying the spell has a cost of 2 minutes and 50 gp per level. You might be able to argue for a discount from your DM, especially for spells without material components, but they're under no obligation to give that to you.
*And that's only assuming the quill can produce fine ink, which we don't need to. It's a quill; it not needing ink and being able to produce its own doesn't mean you can't use other inks, so it being able to produce fine ink is a logical leap to begin with.
Your line of reasoning boils down to still needing spell material components. But most spells don't even have them. So no issue for the majority of spells. So we agree all those are free.
If you have a component pouch you don't need to provide individual components for spells, unless they have a listed GP cost. So even most spells that do need materials is going to be free here too.
Scribes is dope like that. They end up knowing lots of spells and have big spellbooks. Very on brand for their theme.
The logic that Wizardly Quill doesn't require ink but still can would infer undeads don't require air, food, drink, or sleep but still can. I think it's a verbiage that assume it does not.
Undead Nature. A skeleton doesn’t require air, food, drink, or sleep.
It isn't just that, I mean, it is that but not only that.
It is also what the ability says directly after this. It says it produces ink whenever you write with it. This isn't phrased as a choice. It is phrased as something that automatically happens.
When write: produce ink.
So you can't use 3rd party inks with it. It always makes it's own.
Since we've reached the point in the conversation where we are just having fun with word games, the spell copying rules never say you have to use the fine ink--just that you need it. So you still gotta buy it :)
I'd say pen or quill don't produce anything, their ink was created before.
Modern pen expand already produced ink from an internal container.
Mundane old Ink and quill expand already produced ink from external container.
The magic quill expand ink produce out of nothing.
Actually a traditional quill works a lot like any modern pen; the reason feathers were used is because they're hollow, so when you dip the quill it draws ink up into that space, but the ink is thick enough that surface tension and pressure hold it inside (similar to how you can hold water in a straw by putting your thumb over the other end).
When you press the tip to a surface that breaks the surface tension and allows the ink to flow onto the page. There's a knack to how cut the tip into a "nib" though because if you do it wrong the ink either flows out too quickly when you press, or if you're like me at the little workshop at a museum where I tried it you mess it up and the ink won't stay in the quill in the first place. 😂
The only real difference with modern pens is that they hold more ink, and if you can refill them it's usually from the other end, whereas quills hold enough ink for a few words at a time, and you refill them by dipping (so you can draw ink up into the hollow space).
Quills with metal nibs came later, once the metal nib could be produced more easily; most of these don't actually use the feather except for decoration or to hold onto, because the nib itself holds the ink, and is just crimped (compressed) onto the feather. You can just as easily use a wooden handle with a metal nib, the feather at that point isn't needed. IIRC they actually hold less ink than a good sized "proper" quill (just the treated and cut feather) but they would have a more consistent size and profile so would probably be easier to write with overall.
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The only other explanation is: "I'm going to light 50gp worth of components on fire while I write this down." Which makes zero sense and wouldn't help you understand the spell anyway.
To be fair, the Wizardly Quill rules don't tell us how the quill enables you to copy the spell in only 2 minutes per level; maybe it accelerates time?
It feels to me though like they assume that most of the normal 2 hours per spell level is actually the time it takes to copy the spell, so any experimentation might happen before you even begin, but doesn't need to be specified. This would make sense if transcribing a spell is a particularly laborious process, with a lot of very precise glyphs and symbols being made on the page.
On the other hand, it's worth keeping in mind that the Wizardly Quill isn't independent of the awakened spellbook, so it may not really be just the quill that's enabling the faster transcription process. Maybe your awakened spellbook absorbs the material components, and you're leveraging its understanding of the spell to speed up the copying process?
Alternatively, maybe the quill handles the writing while you do the experimenting? So instead of 2 minutes of experimenting plus 118 minutes of writing, you just do the fun part? Essentially the difference in time would be like writing something out by hand versus firing it off using an inkjet printer. In fact, multicoloured ink, produces results in a fraction of the time… are we sure Wizardly Quill isn't just "you have a printer" as a feature? 😂
I think it was probably designed as a purely mechanical feature (copying is faster), but there are plenty of ways to spin it narratively.
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Normal pens produce ink. Are you going to try to argue against this statement? Again, I'd recommend not doing so.
I'd say pen or quill don't produce anything, their ink was created before.
Modern pen expand already produced ink from an internal container.
Mundane old Ink and quill expand already produced ink from external container.
The magic quill expand ink produce out of nothing.
What I mean to say is that, when you press it against paper or another writing surface, a quill produces ink onto the surface. Just like how John produces paper from his pocket.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Yes. Without having to put paper into his pocket, he produces paper from his jacket. The jacket he just magically manifested out of thin air.
Aka, his summon paper-producing-jacket subclass ability does, in fact, make the paper. Or heck, is conjured with the paper already in it. Doesn't matter. The subclass ability made all the paper it produces.
Same with magic quill ink. The ability produces it.
Yes. Without having to put paper into his pocket, he produces paper from his jacket. The jacket he just magically manifested out of thin air.
Aka, his summon paper-producing-jacket subclass ability does, in fact, make the paper. Or heck, is conjured with the paper already in it. Doesn't matter. The subclass ability made all the paper it produces.
Same with magic quill ink. The ability produces it.
If the text for John's Magic Pocket just says "you can always produce paper from this pocket," then that would mean he would be able to summon new papers from nothing, yes, but also that he can take papers that he previously put into his pocket out of his pocket, because that's just another way of producing paper, which is what the text for John's Magic Pocket says John can do.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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The funny thing about these threads is that until WotC actually gives a flying eff about the game, and issues an errata to clarify this, this exact conversation will keep on popping up, because it very much sounds like the quill would remove the costs... even if that's not the intent.
So a 30 second fix of "This does not reduce the costs associated with copying spells into your spellbook" would end this debate once and for all.
But it's pretty telling that Order of Scribes has been out how long and WotC has *yet* to do so.
First, we should remember the theme of the Wizard spellcaster: They are "Scholars of the Arcane". "students who seek to master [magic's] mysteries". "typical spell requires merely the utterance of a few strange words, fleeting gestures, and sometimes a pinch or clump of exotic materials, these surface components barely hint at the expertise attained after years of apprenticeship and countless hours of study." "They learn new spells as they experiment and grow in experience. They can also learn them from other wizards, from ancient tomes or inscriptions, and from ancient creatures (such as the fey) that are steeped in magic."
To me, this means that a Wizard typically spends a lot of downtime doing research and experimentation in classroom and laboratory environments until a spell is finally mastered and archived within a spellbook.
From the "Your Spellbook" sidebar in the Wizard Class description, we have:
Copying a Spell into the Book. . . . if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
there are 4 steps:
. . . involves reproducing the basic form of the spell,
then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it.
You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required,
then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
2 hours / 50 gp per level -- Two types of resources required to complete the above 4 steps:
cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it.
1 hour / 10 gp per level -- You can also "replace" your spellbook:
you understand your own notation and already know how to cast the spell.
Here is how I imagine the default process:
The Wizard steps into a private laboratory where the source spell and the empty spellbook sit upon a workbench and this area is surrounded by beakers and testtubes and various reagents and other material components. I agree with a previous post in this thread that the material components for experimentation are not the same as the ones used in the final spell.
The Wizard identifies the spell and jots down a broad outline of how it works in its "basic form". Now he needs to flesh out the details. But the source writing for the spell is encrypted . . .
It seems that as part of their studies, Wizards (and only Wizards) learn some basic skills of encryption and code breaking and every Wizard tends to encrypt his own spells with "his own notation". Each Wizard will use a different encryption for his own spellbook but Wizards can generally attempt to break each other's code if given enough time to do so. If you are not a class that has access to the Wizard spell list then you have no chance to break the code.
So, this Wizard takes some time to read and attempt to decipher a portion of the code. To see if he has gotten it correct, he grabs a few nearby reagents, mixes them together in a beaker and a puff of green smoke is created. "Hmm, I think it says here that it should have been blue smoke, I must be misinterpreting some details. Ok, let me try it like this instead." Now the Wizard uses some slightly different reagents, mixes them together in a beaker and indeed gets the blue smoke. "Aha! So, that means that this word must be spoken with the emphasis on the second syllable. I see." Now, the Wizard grabs a quill and slowly and carefully writes this portion of the spell, along with the necessary notes about how to say the word, into his own spellbook "in his own notation". Now, he moves on to the next word in the spell, and so on.
In terms of time spent, the bulk of this seems to be broken down into "deciphering", "practicing" (or experimenting), and "transcribing" (recording). In terms of gold cost, the bulk of this seems to be broken down into "material components you expend as you experiment" and "fine inks". Some of these tasks and resources are used when Copying a Spell Into the Book (2 hours / 50 gp) and also when Replacing the Book (1 hour / 10 gp) and others are only used in the former.
When making the backup copy, we do not need to decipher or practice. We only record. Only the ink is used. So, we can determine that just writing the spell by default takes 1 hour and the ink used costs 10 gp. This means that the material components used for experimentation costs 40 gp and the experimentation itself takes 1 hour.
Quite clearly the Wizardly Quill produces its own ink. At the very least this should save 10 gp no matter what.
Based on all of this, I can see 3 possible interpretations for adding a spell to the spellbook with this quill:
1. "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes" refers only to the transcribing portion of the process. You must still decipher and experiment, but the actual writing happens very quickly. Total process: 1 hour and 2 minutes, cost = 40 gp.
2. "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes" refers only to time spent (not resources used) for the entire process. Deciphering and experimentation is still required and still uses up 40 gp worth of materials but somehow this happens incredibly quickly. Total process: 2 minutes, cost = 40 gp.
3. The quill is magic. You have no idea what you are reading but the quill translates this into "your own notation" automatically. Now that it is in your own notation you can simply read your own spellbook and memorize / prepare your spells as normal. The process of deciphering and experimenting is no longer required because the quill is translating the information for us. No time is spent and no materials are used for experimentation. This is further supported by the similarity of the heading "Copying a Spell Into the Book" (which describes the entire process) and the wording of the quill -- "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes". Total process: 2 minutes, cost = 0 gp.
Honestly, when I began writing this post my conclusion was going to be different. But after actually writing it all down I have changed my mind. I think that interpretation #3 is the most correct.
Quite clearly the Wizardly Quill produces its own ink. At the very least this should save 10 gp no matter what.
Where are you getting 10 gp from? The cost of ordinary ink? Bog standard basic home-brand ink clearly isn't what "fine inks" refers to, nor does that magically scale to covering the full 50+ gp cost of copying the spell; for that you'd need to establish a clear basis under which the entire cost of copying a spell comes from ink, despite the description of copying into a spellbook specifically saying it isn't.
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This was explained in my previous post. In the Wizard's "Your Spellbook" sidebar there are two different activities described:
This thread has mostly focused on the first one, "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which takes two hours and costs 50 gp. This activity involves deciphering, experimenting and transcribing. The material costs involved include material components and fine inks.
There is also a second activity defined -- "Replacing the Book" which takes 1 hour and costs 10 gp. This activity involves only the transcribing. The material costs involved include only the fine inks.
Thus, the fine inks used in the first activity cost 10 gp and the other material components used in the experimentation cost 40 gp.
This thread has mostly focused on the first one, "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which takes two hours and costs 50 gp. This activity involves deciphering, experimenting and transcribing. The material costs involved include material components and fine inks.
There is also a second activity defined -- "Replacing the Book" which takes 1 hour and costs 10 gp. This activity involves only the transcribing. The material costs involved include only the fine inks.
The rules for replacing a spellbook, or copying into a backup, aren't relevant, because the process of replacing an Awakened Spellbook is not the same as for an ordinary spellbook. What's more, the rules for copying into a spare spellbook don't say what the gold cost is for, so deciding that this is the same as for copying a spell in fresh is another leap on top of the leap required to have the quill produce the fine inks that you need for regular copying.
In Rules As Written issues the simplest answer is always best; the Wizardly Quill rule doesn't say it reduces the costs, therefore it doesn't.
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Well, in my opinion that's one of the only interpretations that is definitely incorrect. The quill produces its own ink. It's one of the three bullet points in the description of the Wizardly Quill feature that explains the properties of the quill. Just like there doesn't seem to be much debate about the fact that using the quill for transcription requires 2 minutes per level (since that is also one of the three bullet points of the feature) there really shouldn't be much debate about the fact that the quill produces its own ink. So, at a minimum the material cost involved in the overall process should be reduced by the cost of the ink.
Beyond that, I'm having trouble figuring out what you are arguing about. Why would you even bring up the Awakened Spellbook replacement feature? I'm talking about the default rules for a Wizard attempting to copy a spell. I spent a lot of time starting out discussing the default rules in order to establish some logic behind how much things usually cost. It's not spelled out perfectly -- the way that you get there, as I've explained, is to take a look at both of the default activities and understanding what is different about them. Using some pretty straightforward logic we can determine that the materials for experimentation cost 40 gp and the ink costs 10 gp. In addition, the time cost is 1 hour for deciphering and experimentation and 1 hour for transcription. All of this has nothing to do with the Awakened Spellbook -- it's just the default rules for copying spells.
Once this is all established we can then take a look at how things have changed when we apply the Tiny Quill to this process. I've provided 3 possible interpretations based on what we think is meant by the phrase "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes". My first interpretation is the least likely since the phrase "copy a spell into your spell book" very closely matches up with the default activity of "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which is the heading given for the whole process. Interpretation #2 is plausible but it would be really weird for the deciphering and experimentation portions of the process to burn up just as many resources but to all of a sudden change from taking 1 hour to complete to taking less than 2 minutes simply because we are using a different quill. Thus, the most likely correct interpretation is my #3 above.
Well, in my opinion that's one of the only interpretations that is definitely incorrect. The quill produces its own ink. It's one of the three bullet points in the description of the Wizardly Quill feature that explains the properties of the quill. Just like there doesn't seem to be much debate about the fact that using the quill for transcription requires 2 minutes per level (since that is also one of the three bullet points of the feature) there really shouldn't be much debate about the fact that the quill produces its own ink. So, at a minimum the material cost involved in the overall process should be reduced by the cost of the ink.
Beyond that, I'm having trouble figuring out what you are arguing about. Why would you even bring up the Awakened Spellbook replacement feature? I'm talking about the default rules for a Wizard attempting to copy a spell. I spent a lot of time starting out discussing the default rules in order to establish some logic behind how much things usually cost. It's not spelled out perfectly -- the way that you get there, as I've explained, is to take a look at both of the default activities and understanding what is different about them. Using some pretty straightforward logic we can determine that the materials for experimentation cost 40 gp and the ink costs 10 gp. In addition, the time cost is 1 hour for deciphering and experimentation and 1 hour for transcription. All of this has nothing to do with the Awakened Spellbook -- it's just the default rules for copying spells.
Once this is all established we can then take a look at how things have changed when we apply the Tiny Quill to this process. I've provided 3 possible interpretations based on what we think is meant by the phrase "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes". My first interpretation is the least likely since the phrase "copy a spell into your spell book" very closely matches up with the default activity of "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which is the heading given for the whole process. Interpretation #2 is plausible but it would be really weird for the deciphering and experimentation portions of the process to burn up just as many resources but to all of a sudden change from taking 1 hour to complete to taking less than 2 minutes simply because we are using a different quill. Thus, the most likely correct interpretation is my #3 above.
Why would you work under the assumption that the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Also, the "logic" that you used to determine how much the ink costs is really just a set of assumptions, and therefore very difficult to justify, RAW.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
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Well, perhaps coincidentally, there is a standard item listed in the Equipment chapter -> Other Adventuring Gear called Ink (1 ounce bottle) which happens to cost exactly 10 gp as well. Whether or not this is the same ink that is referred to as "fine ink" in the Wizard "Your Spellbook" sidebar is open to debate to be sure but I find this "coincidence" interesting.
But, what do you mean about the set of assumptions? The derivation is based on the only information that we have on the subject throughout all of the sourcebooks and doesn't seem like a very difficult conclusion to draw. We have one activity involving materials for experiments and inks for writing that totals 50 gp and another activity that involves the same amount of writing and nothing else that costs 10 gp -- why do we need the book to show this math for us? We really can't conclude that the first activity breaks down into two types of materials that cost 40 gp and 10 gp? Yes, we can say that this breakdown is not explicit in the text. Yes, we can say that maybe it's not the correct ink even though no source book suggests the existence of or a price for some other "fine" ink. We'd rather just throw our hands up in the air and say that all of this is completely unknown when we're given 90% of the information?
As for why the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Why wouldn't it be? Why would this item and/or this feature exist for a wizard if they couldn't use it to scribe a spell? That would be silly. "The magic quill has the following properties:" It's magic. But somehow it still wouldn't produce good enough ink? What? In my opinion, the ink produced by the quill is even better quality than the fine inks that are typically used. The fine inks probably come in a set of bottles of different colors -- a finite number of colors. But the quill can produce ANY color! What's better than that!? Also, just the structure of how the feature is written pretty much requires that the ink produced IS good enough. The first bullet point says that the quill produces its own ink. The very next bullet point talks about copying a spell into your spellbook "if you use the quill for the transcription." Since the quill can be used to scribe a spell and the quill operates by producing its own ink then in fact that ink must be good enough to scribe spells. Since the feature says "When you write with it, it produces ink" that means that you actually cannot write with it without it producing ink -- so its ink IS going into the scribed spell. It must be good enough.
Well, perhaps coincidentally, there is a standard item listed in the Equipment chapter -> Other Adventuring Gear called Ink (1 ounce bottle) which happens to cost exactly 10 gp as well. Whether or not this is the same ink that is referred to as "fine ink" in the Wizard "Your Spellbook" sidebar is open to debate to be sure but I find this "coincidence" interesting.
1 ounce is a lot of ink. Like, thousands of pages. If an ounce of normal ink costs as much as enough "fine ink" to scribe a single 1st level spell, I think it's pretty clear that normal ink and "fine ink" are pretty damn different. "Coincidence?" I think not! As in, not even remotely! As in, barely any correlation at all!
But, what do you mean about the set of assumptions? The derivation is based on the only information that we have on the subject throughout all of the sourcebooks and doesn't seem like a very difficult conclusion to draw. We have one activity involving materials for experiments and inks for writing that totals 50 gp and another activity that involves the same amount of writing and nothing else that costs 10 gp -- why do we need the book to show this math for us? We really can't conclude that the first activity breaks down into two types of materials that cost 40 gp and 10 gp? Yes, we can say that this breakdown is not explicit in the text. Yes, we can say that maybe it's not the correct ink even though no source book suggests the existence of or a price for some other "fine" ink. We'd rather just throw our hands up in the air and say that all of this is completely unknown when we're given 90% of the information?
If only 90% of the information is written, then the remaining 10% of the information isn't RAW, because it isn't written, and the phrase "Rules as Written" kinda assumes that the rules that you're talking about are written. The rules are not a logic puzzle.
Present a situation where assumptions like the ones you're making are absolutely necessary to understand the rules, and maybe I'll concede the point, but in lack of such a situation, rules do what they say they do.
As for why the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Why wouldn't it be? Why would this item and/or this feature exist for a wizard if they couldn't use it to scribe a spell? That would be silly. "The magic quill has the following properties:" It's magic. But somehow it still wouldn't produce good enough ink? What? In my opinion, the ink produced by the quill is even better quality than the fine inks that are typically used. The fine inks probably come in a set of bottles of different colors -- a finite number of colors. But the quill can produce ANY color! What's better than that!? Also, just the structure of how the feature is written pretty much requires that the ink produced IS good enough. The first bullet point says that the quill produces its own ink. The very next bullet point talks about copying a spell into your spellbook "if you use the quill for the transcription." Since the quill can be used to scribe a spell and the quill operates by producing its own ink then in fact that ink must be good enough to scribe spells. Since the feature says "When you write with it, it produces ink" that means that you actually cannot write with it without it producing ink -- so its ink IS going into the scribed spell. It must be good enough.
The idea that anything created by magic is inherently better than anything not created by magic is just another big assumption. I mean, if you have any text from the book that says this, then you might have a point, but I don't remember reading anything that says the wine produced by a Alchemy Jug is the best wine in the world.
The quill always produces ink onto a writing surface, yes. Even when it's empty. It doesn't, however, necessarily produce its own ink onto a writing surface. It just always produces ink onto a writing surface. If the quill has special fine inks in its reservoir, then it will produce those inks onto a writing surface, like all quills do when they have ink in them. The fact that the quill's magically-created ink is not of a high enough quality to scribe spells does not mean that the quill is incapable of scribing spells. I've been over all of this in this thread, so I recommend you read back a bit.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Your line of reasoning boils down to still needing spell material components. But most spells don't even have them. So no issue for the majority of spells. So we agree all those are free.
If you have a component pouch you don't need to provide individual components for spells, unless they have a listed GP cost. So even most spells that do need materials is going to be free here too.
Scribes is dope like that. They end up knowing lots of spells and have big spellbooks. Very on brand for their theme.
I'm probably laughing.
The cost for copying a spell into your spellbook is not said to be exempted if it has no material component or if you can provide a component pouch.
It isn't just that, I mean, it is that but not only that.
It is also what the ability says directly after this. It says it produces ink whenever you write with it. This isn't phrased as a choice. It is phrased as something that automatically happens.
When write: produce ink.
So you can't use 3rd party inks with it. It always makes it's own.
I'm probably laughing.
Well do a process of elimination. You're not paying for ink. Nor materials.
The cost is for ink and materials.
Follow?
It is like X= A+B, where X is the cost to scribe. A is the cost of ink and B is the cost of materials.
If we take away A, we still have X=0+B. It isn't solvable.
Or if we onky set B to 0, same thing. X=A+0. No change.
But if we set both A AND B to 0? Something new happens.
X = 0+0... so X=0
Free.
I'm probably laughing.
Since we've reached the point in the conversation where we are just having fun with word games, the spell copying rules never say you have to use the fine ink--just that you need it. So you still gotta buy it :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Actually a traditional quill works a lot like any modern pen; the reason feathers were used is because they're hollow, so when you dip the quill it draws ink up into that space, but the ink is thick enough that surface tension and pressure hold it inside (similar to how you can hold water in a straw by putting your thumb over the other end).
When you press the tip to a surface that breaks the surface tension and allows the ink to flow onto the page. There's a knack to how cut the tip into a "nib" though because if you do it wrong the ink either flows out too quickly when you press, or if you're like me at the little workshop at a museum where I tried it you mess it up and the ink won't stay in the quill in the first place. 😂
The only real difference with modern pens is that they hold more ink, and if you can refill them it's usually from the other end, whereas quills hold enough ink for a few words at a time, and you refill them by dipping (so you can draw ink up into the hollow space).
Quills with metal nibs came later, once the metal nib could be produced more easily; most of these don't actually use the feather except for decoration or to hold onto, because the nib itself holds the ink, and is just crimped (compressed) onto the feather. You can just as easily use a wooden handle with a metal nib, the feather at that point isn't needed. IIRC they actually hold less ink than a good sized "proper" quill (just the treated and cut feather) but they would have a more consistent size and profile so would probably be easier to write with overall.
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To be fair, the Wizardly Quill rules don't tell us how the quill enables you to copy the spell in only 2 minutes per level; maybe it accelerates time?
It feels to me though like they assume that most of the normal 2 hours per spell level is actually the time it takes to copy the spell, so any experimentation might happen before you even begin, but doesn't need to be specified. This would make sense if transcribing a spell is a particularly laborious process, with a lot of very precise glyphs and symbols being made on the page.
On the other hand, it's worth keeping in mind that the Wizardly Quill isn't independent of the awakened spellbook, so it may not really be just the quill that's enabling the faster transcription process. Maybe your awakened spellbook absorbs the material components, and you're leveraging its understanding of the spell to speed up the copying process?
Alternatively, maybe the quill handles the writing while you do the experimenting? So instead of 2 minutes of experimenting plus 118 minutes of writing, you just do the fun part? Essentially the difference in time would be like writing something out by hand versus firing it off using an inkjet printer. In fact, multicoloured ink, produces results in a fraction of the time… are we sure Wizardly Quill isn't just "you have a printer" as a feature? 😂
I think it was probably designed as a purely mechanical feature (copying is faster), but there are plenty of ways to spin it narratively.
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What I mean to say is that, when you press it against paper or another writing surface, a quill produces ink onto the surface. Just like how John produces paper from his pocket.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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Yes. Without having to put paper into his pocket, he produces paper from his jacket. The jacket he just magically manifested out of thin air.
Aka, his summon paper-producing-jacket subclass ability does, in fact, make the paper. Or heck, is conjured with the paper already in it. Doesn't matter. The subclass ability made all the paper it produces.
Same with magic quill ink. The ability produces it.
I'm probably laughing.
If the text for John's Magic Pocket just says "you can always produce paper from this pocket," then that would mean he would be able to summon new papers from nothing, yes, but also that he can take papers that he previously put into his pocket out of his pocket, because that's just another way of producing paper, which is what the text for John's Magic Pocket says John can do.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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The funny thing about these threads is that until WotC actually gives a flying eff about the game, and issues an errata to clarify this, this exact conversation will keep on popping up, because it very much sounds like the quill would remove the costs... even if that's not the intent.
So a 30 second fix of "This does not reduce the costs associated with copying spells into your spellbook" would end this debate once and for all.
But it's pretty telling that Order of Scribes has been out how long and WotC has *yet* to do so.
WotC will never errata this, and they are right not to waste their time on it. We all know how to play this feature. We just like to argue in here :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Ok, my two cents on how all of this works.
First, we should remember the theme of the Wizard spellcaster: They are "Scholars of the Arcane". "students who seek to master [magic's] mysteries". "typical spell requires merely the utterance of a few strange words, fleeting gestures, and sometimes a pinch or clump of exotic materials, these surface components barely hint at the expertise attained after years of apprenticeship and countless hours of study." "They learn new spells as they experiment and grow in experience. They can also learn them from other wizards, from ancient tomes or inscriptions, and from ancient creatures (such as the fey) that are steeped in magic."
To me, this means that a Wizard typically spends a lot of downtime doing research and experimentation in classroom and laboratory environments until a spell is finally mastered and archived within a spellbook.
From the "Your Spellbook" sidebar in the Wizard Class description, we have:
there are 4 steps:
2 hours / 50 gp per level -- Two types of resources required to complete the above 4 steps:
1 hour / 10 gp per level -- You can also "replace" your spellbook:
Here is how I imagine the default process:
The Wizard steps into a private laboratory where the source spell and the empty spellbook sit upon a workbench and this area is surrounded by beakers and testtubes and various reagents and other material components. I agree with a previous post in this thread that the material components for experimentation are not the same as the ones used in the final spell.
The Wizard identifies the spell and jots down a broad outline of how it works in its "basic form". Now he needs to flesh out the details. But the source writing for the spell is encrypted . . .
It seems that as part of their studies, Wizards (and only Wizards) learn some basic skills of encryption and code breaking and every Wizard tends to encrypt his own spells with "his own notation". Each Wizard will use a different encryption for his own spellbook but Wizards can generally attempt to break each other's code if given enough time to do so. If you are not a class that has access to the Wizard spell list then you have no chance to break the code.
So, this Wizard takes some time to read and attempt to decipher a portion of the code. To see if he has gotten it correct, he grabs a few nearby reagents, mixes them together in a beaker and a puff of green smoke is created. "Hmm, I think it says here that it should have been blue smoke, I must be misinterpreting some details. Ok, let me try it like this instead." Now the Wizard uses some slightly different reagents, mixes them together in a beaker and indeed gets the blue smoke. "Aha! So, that means that this word must be spoken with the emphasis on the second syllable. I see." Now, the Wizard grabs a quill and slowly and carefully writes this portion of the spell, along with the necessary notes about how to say the word, into his own spellbook "in his own notation". Now, he moves on to the next word in the spell, and so on.
In terms of time spent, the bulk of this seems to be broken down into "deciphering", "practicing" (or experimenting), and "transcribing" (recording). In terms of gold cost, the bulk of this seems to be broken down into "material components you expend as you experiment" and "fine inks". Some of these tasks and resources are used when Copying a Spell Into the Book (2 hours / 50 gp) and also when Replacing the Book (1 hour / 10 gp) and others are only used in the former.
When making the backup copy, we do not need to decipher or practice. We only record. Only the ink is used. So, we can determine that just writing the spell by default takes 1 hour and the ink used costs 10 gp. This means that the material components used for experimentation costs 40 gp and the experimentation itself takes 1 hour.
Quite clearly the Wizardly Quill produces its own ink. At the very least this should save 10 gp no matter what.
Based on all of this, I can see 3 possible interpretations for adding a spell to the spellbook with this quill:
1. "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes" refers only to the transcribing portion of the process. You must still decipher and experiment, but the actual writing happens very quickly. Total process: 1 hour and 2 minutes, cost = 40 gp.
2. "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes" refers only to time spent (not resources used) for the entire process. Deciphering and experimentation is still required and still uses up 40 gp worth of materials but somehow this happens incredibly quickly. Total process: 2 minutes, cost = 40 gp.
3. The quill is magic. You have no idea what you are reading but the quill translates this into "your own notation" automatically. Now that it is in your own notation you can simply read your own spellbook and memorize / prepare your spells as normal. The process of deciphering and experimenting is no longer required because the quill is translating the information for us. No time is spent and no materials are used for experimentation. This is further supported by the similarity of the heading "Copying a Spell Into the Book" (which describes the entire process) and the wording of the quill -- "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes". Total process: 2 minutes, cost = 0 gp.
Honestly, when I began writing this post my conclusion was going to be different. But after actually writing it all down I have changed my mind. I think that interpretation #3 is the most correct.
Where are you getting 10 gp from? The cost of ordinary ink? Bog standard basic home-brand ink clearly isn't what "fine inks" refers to, nor does that magically scale to covering the full 50+ gp cost of copying the spell; for that you'd need to establish a clear basis under which the entire cost of copying a spell comes from ink, despite the description of copying into a spellbook specifically saying it isn't.
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This was explained in my previous post. In the Wizard's "Your Spellbook" sidebar there are two different activities described:
This thread has mostly focused on the first one, "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which takes two hours and costs 50 gp. This activity involves deciphering, experimenting and transcribing. The material costs involved include material components and fine inks.
There is also a second activity defined -- "Replacing the Book" which takes 1 hour and costs 10 gp. This activity involves only the transcribing. The material costs involved include only the fine inks.
Thus, the fine inks used in the first activity cost 10 gp and the other material components used in the experimentation cost 40 gp.
The rules for replacing a spellbook, or copying into a backup, aren't relevant, because the process of replacing an Awakened Spellbook is not the same as for an ordinary spellbook. What's more, the rules for copying into a spare spellbook don't say what the gold cost is for, so deciding that this is the same as for copying a spell in fresh is another leap on top of the leap required to have the quill produce the fine inks that you need for regular copying.
In Rules As Written issues the simplest answer is always best; the Wizardly Quill rule doesn't say it reduces the costs, therefore it doesn't.
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Well, in my opinion that's one of the only interpretations that is definitely incorrect. The quill produces its own ink. It's one of the three bullet points in the description of the Wizardly Quill feature that explains the properties of the quill. Just like there doesn't seem to be much debate about the fact that using the quill for transcription requires 2 minutes per level (since that is also one of the three bullet points of the feature) there really shouldn't be much debate about the fact that the quill produces its own ink. So, at a minimum the material cost involved in the overall process should be reduced by the cost of the ink.
Beyond that, I'm having trouble figuring out what you are arguing about. Why would you even bring up the Awakened Spellbook replacement feature? I'm talking about the default rules for a Wizard attempting to copy a spell. I spent a lot of time starting out discussing the default rules in order to establish some logic behind how much things usually cost. It's not spelled out perfectly -- the way that you get there, as I've explained, is to take a look at both of the default activities and understanding what is different about them. Using some pretty straightforward logic we can determine that the materials for experimentation cost 40 gp and the ink costs 10 gp. In addition, the time cost is 1 hour for deciphering and experimentation and 1 hour for transcription. All of this has nothing to do with the Awakened Spellbook -- it's just the default rules for copying spells.
Once this is all established we can then take a look at how things have changed when we apply the Tiny Quill to this process. I've provided 3 possible interpretations based on what we think is meant by the phrase "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes". My first interpretation is the least likely since the phrase "copy a spell into your spell book" very closely matches up with the default activity of "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which is the heading given for the whole process. Interpretation #2 is plausible but it would be really weird for the deciphering and experimentation portions of the process to burn up just as many resources but to all of a sudden change from taking 1 hour to complete to taking less than 2 minutes simply because we are using a different quill. Thus, the most likely correct interpretation is my #3 above.
Why would you work under the assumption that the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Also, the "logic" that you used to determine how much the ink costs is really just a set of assumptions, and therefore very difficult to justify, RAW.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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Well, perhaps coincidentally, there is a standard item listed in the Equipment chapter -> Other Adventuring Gear called Ink (1 ounce bottle) which happens to cost exactly 10 gp as well. Whether or not this is the same ink that is referred to as "fine ink" in the Wizard "Your Spellbook" sidebar is open to debate to be sure but I find this "coincidence" interesting.
But, what do you mean about the set of assumptions? The derivation is based on the only information that we have on the subject throughout all of the sourcebooks and doesn't seem like a very difficult conclusion to draw. We have one activity involving materials for experiments and inks for writing that totals 50 gp and another activity that involves the same amount of writing and nothing else that costs 10 gp -- why do we need the book to show this math for us? We really can't conclude that the first activity breaks down into two types of materials that cost 40 gp and 10 gp? Yes, we can say that this breakdown is not explicit in the text. Yes, we can say that maybe it's not the correct ink even though no source book suggests the existence of or a price for some other "fine" ink. We'd rather just throw our hands up in the air and say that all of this is completely unknown when we're given 90% of the information?
As for why the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Why wouldn't it be? Why would this item and/or this feature exist for a wizard if they couldn't use it to scribe a spell? That would be silly. "The magic quill has the following properties:" It's magic. But somehow it still wouldn't produce good enough ink? What? In my opinion, the ink produced by the quill is even better quality than the fine inks that are typically used. The fine inks probably come in a set of bottles of different colors -- a finite number of colors. But the quill can produce ANY color! What's better than that!? Also, just the structure of how the feature is written pretty much requires that the ink produced IS good enough. The first bullet point says that the quill produces its own ink. The very next bullet point talks about copying a spell into your spellbook "if you use the quill for the transcription." Since the quill can be used to scribe a spell and the quill operates by producing its own ink then in fact that ink must be good enough to scribe spells. Since the feature says "When you write with it, it produces ink" that means that you actually cannot write with it without it producing ink -- so its ink IS going into the scribed spell. It must be good enough.
1 ounce is a lot of ink. Like, thousands of pages. If an ounce of normal ink costs as much as enough "fine ink" to scribe a single 1st level spell, I think it's pretty clear that normal ink and "fine ink" are pretty damn different. "Coincidence?" I think not! As in, not even remotely! As in, barely any correlation at all!
If only 90% of the information is written, then the remaining 10% of the information isn't RAW, because it isn't written, and the phrase "Rules as Written" kinda assumes that the rules that you're talking about are written. The rules are not a logic puzzle.
Present a situation where assumptions like the ones you're making are absolutely necessary to understand the rules, and maybe I'll concede the point, but in lack of such a situation, rules do what they say they do.
The idea that anything created by magic is inherently better than anything not created by magic is just another big assumption. I mean, if you have any text from the book that says this, then you might have a point, but I don't remember reading anything that says the wine produced by a Alchemy Jug is the best wine in the world.
The quill always produces ink onto a writing surface, yes. Even when it's empty. It doesn't, however, necessarily produce its own ink onto a writing surface. It just always produces ink onto a writing surface. If the quill has special fine inks in its reservoir, then it will produce those inks onto a writing surface, like all quills do when they have ink in them. The fact that the quill's magically-created ink is not of a high enough quality to scribe spells does not mean that the quill is incapable of scribing spells. I've been over all of this in this thread, so I recommend you read back a bit.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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