The Wizardly Quill (as a complete whole) is a specific rule that allows spells to be copied
It doesn't cover the entire rules for copying spells, it only mentions copying and it taking less time; it doesn't say anything about which spells you can copy, or how you do it, so there's no reason to think that the Wizardly Quill rule would (or should) fully replace the rules for copying spells.
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So, per the RAW, you can be attuned to a [Tooltip Not Found] and turn it into your Awakened Spellbook in an hour (short rest) for 0 cost. So you get to basically copy seven spells with a total level of 21 into your book for free, in 1 hour.
I guess I don't see why you would be prevented from copying a different spell into your book for free in the 2 minutes/level required by the feature. If a good chunk of the cost is experimenting with the materials and learning the spell, how on earth do you experiment with material AND write it all down in 2 minutes?
RAW can often get silly when you get into the nitty gritty of it,
Although i will note that hour ritual is actually moving your spellbook's consciousness not scribing the spells, the transfer of spells are attributed to the consciousness not your writing "At the end of the rest, your spellbook’s consciousness is summoned into the new book, which the consciousness transforms into your spellbook, along with all its spells." This does not allow you to duplicate a spellbook it replaces it and removes all spells from the original.
Basically this is a silly result but two completely different processes.
One the wizard writing spells into their book (which by my reading in my previous comment only adjusts the time to copy spells since it makes no mention of the other portions of the generic "Your Spellbook" rules) which takes them 2 minutes per spell level, you can justify the costs however you like (experimental materials, some treatment that must be done to the spellbook other than the ink supplied by the quill, ect.)
The other is the Consciousness created by the Awakened Spellbook feature being transplanted during a rest and magically moving the spells it contains from one book to the other (replacing the original not duplicating it)
The Wizardly Quill (as a complete whole) is a specific rule that allows spells to be copied
It doesn't cover the entire rules for copying spells, it only mentions copying and it taking less time; it doesn't say anything about which spells you can copy, or how you do it, so there's no reason to think that the Wizardly Quill rule would (or should) fully replace the rules for copying spells.
You're making the assumption that it has to have those restrictions. It doesn't say it does. So, doesn't.
The magic quill writes them into your spellbook. The only requirement is 2 minutes per level.
Are you saying that you would lose all of the spells in the attuned Fulminating Treatise when your spell book transfers? Because that seems contrary to the RAW and RAI.
I think what Noksa is referring to is that the spellbook you transferred the consciousness from becomes blank, it does not destroy the spells within the book that you are transferring to – the rule only states that you copy spells into the new book and then the consciousness transfers, at which point you will have an awakened spellbook that not only contains the spells you knew, but also the ones that the new book comes with.
Meanwhile your original spellbook will now be blank – so you only ever have one spellbook containing all of the spells you know.
It does however mean that if you then transferred the consciousness again you could effectively remove those spells from the treatise, so if someone else were to then attune to it they would only gain its other benefits (fast spell switching and bonus evocation damage).
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Are you saying that you would lose all of the spells in the attuned Fulminating Treatise when your spell book transfers? Because that seems contrary to the RAW and RAI.
I think what Noksa is referring to is that the spellbook you transferred the conscious from becomes blank, it does not destroy the spells within the book that you are transferring to – the rule only states that you copy spells into the new book and then the consciousness transfers, at which point you will have an awakened spellbook that not only contains the spells you knew, but also the ones that the new book comes with.
Meanwhile your original spellbook will now be blank – so you only ever have one spellbook containing all of the spells you know.
It does however mean that if you then transferred the consciousness again you could effectively remove those spells from the treatise, so if someone else were to then attune to it they would only gain its other benefits (fast spell switching and bonus evocation damage).
Confirming that this is my interpretation of the awakened spell-book feature.
The Wizardly Quill (as a complete whole) is a specific rule that allows spells to be copied
It doesn't cover the entire rules for copying spells, it only mentions copying and it taking less time; it doesn't say anything about which spells you can copy, or how you do it, so there's no reason to think that the Wizardly Quill rule would (or should) fully replace the rules for copying spells.
You're making the assumption that it has to have those restrictions. It doesn't say it does. So, doesn't.
The magic quill writes them into your spellbook. The only requirement is 2 minutes per level.
My reading of the Magic Quill bullet is as a modification of an existing rule:
Magic Quill bullet: "The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription."
modifies the following rule
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hoursand costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells."
which becomes
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 minutesand costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells."
If your dm allows this feature to remove all requirements for copying a spell that's fine at their/your table, i see the argument for RAW but disagree with it. I also believe full cost is rules as intended because the UA included language reducing the cost which was removed in the final version
UA Text: "The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook are halved if you use the quill."
Final Text: ""The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.""
Edit: For the record, when I played a scribes wizard i asked my DM to allow the UA version of this feature since logically paying full price while bringing my own ink didn't make logical sense to me
My reading of the Magic Quill bullet is as a modification of an existing rule:
That seems to be what several people are doing. But, I'd point out, it doesn't actually modify the rule, it isn't phrased as a modification in any way. Compare it to savant, which is a modification to those rules.
the gold and time you must spend to copy an abjuration spell into your spellbook is halved.
vs
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
One explicitly references and then modifies the existing default process for spellbook copying.
The other doesn't do either. It stands entirely on its own.
You can either use magic inks and practice, spending 50gp and all that. -or- you can use the magical quill, which takes just 2 minutes per level (and does its own ink)
If your dm allows this feature to remove all requirements for copying a spell that's fine at their/your table, i see the argument for RAW but disagree with it. I also believe full cost is rules as intended because the UA included language reducing the cost which was removed in the final version
This is further evidence that they changed it such that it became its own separate method of transcription. They started off with all that verbiage referencing back to the original default method, and verbiage on how to modify that method.
Then, inexplicably, they rephrased it in a way that no longer references the original method, that no longer directly modifies it either. The intent here is clear, they wanted it to stand independent, as its own method.
UA Text: "The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook are halved if you use the quill."
Final Text: ""The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.""
Yeah. They originally reference the default method and then released an official version that no longer does so. That's a design change.
They took out the word gold and changed halved to 2 minutes, how is it not referencing the same rule?
They just modified the to copy a spell into your spell book rule that is referenced in your abjuration example, the UA, and the final version of the quill using the phrase "the (part being modified) you must spend to copy (limitation of relevant) spell into your spellbook is (how it is modified)."
They took out the word gold and changed halved to 2 minutes, how is it not referencing the same rule?
Because it doesn't reference the rule.
References would be like
- halves the
- changes it
- instead of
- no longer need
etc.
They call back to the original in some way. They reference what theyre changing.
Savant does this. It reverenced back to the gold and time cost of the default copy rule. It then tells us how that rule is to be modied. Costs are halved. So this us us referencing the original rule and then applying a change to it.
The magic quill. The published version, doesn't do that. It doesn't reference back nothing about it refers to anything from the default rule. And it doesn't use reference language.
It also doesn't say to modify anything either. The sentence and rule it presents stands entirely on its own. You can parce it entirely on its own without referencing the original rule. Ie. It is complete unto itself.
Like. Answer this question -without- referencing the original rule.
How long does it take an abjurer to copy a 4th level abjuration spell into their spellbook?
Vs
How long does it take a scribes wizard to copy that same spell into their spellbook?
You cannot answer this question for the abjurer without referencing the original method rules.
You can answer it for the scribes wizard, though.
This is what it means. The scribes wizard doesnt reference the original. It is complete unto itself.
It sounds like we disagree on the fundamental requirements to make a call to an existing rule.
For me the "The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook " is enough to invoke the copy a spell rules, the modification itself doesn't need to be calculated off the original rule.
I guess we aren't coming together on this, so if we ever end up at a table together the DM gets to decide ;)
So, what I got from all of this it the fact that the order of the scribes is between one of the weakest wizard traditions or one of the better depending on if we follow the RAW strictly.
Wizardly quill: 2 Minutes to write down spells in a dungeon is useless due to the fact that you need to train with material components, which mostly exists during downtime at shops anyways... Better just steal the books then?!?
Awakened spell book: Most DM's are never gonna target or destroy a wizards spellbook and even then you could just buy an enduring spellbook instead. The ability to change the damage type of spell can be useful. However it can only be done once per day and forces you to seemingly waste tons of gold on mediocre spells just to make this viable. Better results can be achieved when you can take feats such as elemental adept or meta magic initiative.
Manifest mind: Nothing to say here great feature.
Master Scrivener: 1 Free spell per day.
One with the word: Would be great if it wasn't fully reliant on accumulating spells, which becomes a tedious side quest.
All the other wizards gets their features for free while the scribes is bound to collecting spells to be useful which makes it extremely gold dependent compared to the other wizards. I always saw the quill as a compensation for the other semi-lackluster features.
Wizardly quill: 2 Minutes to write down spells in a dungeon is useless due to the fact that you need to train with material components, which mostly exists during downtime at shops anyways... Better just steal the books then?!?
It still saves a lot of time; if you find three 1st-level scrolls, then ordinarily that'd be a minimum of 6 hours to copy those scrolls, for an Order of Scribes Wizard it's 6 minutes, and the benefit is only amplified the higher level those scrolls are.
How much of a benefit this will be will depend on how much downtime your DM gives you, but even if they're relatively generous there will still be times where as Order of Scribes you can squeeze in copying a spell where another wizard simply can't. Plus time you save is time you can spend on something else; it means more hours to spend on crafting potions or magic items, gambling, researching etc. I always find it a huge shame when DMs skip over downtime as it can be such a rich part of the game; D&D doesn't need to just be non-stop combat with the occasional 8 hours asleep.
The ability to change the damage type of spell can be useful. However it can only be done once per day and forces you to seemingly waste tons of gold on mediocre spells just to make this viable.
Where do you get the idea that you can only do this once per day? You can use this ability as often as you want, and most of the time you don't need all that many extra spells; chromatic orb gets you the elemental types for 1st-level, dragon's breath does the same for 2nd-level, 3rd-level is tricker but spirit shroud will get you cold, necrotic and radiant and so-on.
Most of the time you really only need one or two backup types, most resistant enemies are only immune or resistant to a single type, fewer are immune/resistant to two, and fewer still are resistant to 3+ (and of those that are, 3 will be bludgeoning/piercing/slashing). The ones I tend to prioritise are force and psychic damage, as very few things are immune or resistant to those, and I can't think of anything offhand that's immune or resistant to both, plus anything that is can probably be hurt by whatever damage type the spell does in the first place. Point is, you don't need every damage type at every level, just having a choice of two or three makes it extremely unlikely you can't hurt an enemy.
While it requires a little bit of work, so does Wizard in general, and it's a great ability; Sorcerers have to take Transmuted Spell and spend 1 sorcery point every time they want to change damage type.
One with the word: Would be great if it wasn't fully reliant on accumulating spells, which becomes a tedious side quest.
It's a cheat death ability that you get at a level where Wizards are already really strong (and most campaigns won't get beyond 10th-level or so anyway).
Order of Scribes is a great sub-class IMO, Manifest Mind alone makes it one of my favourites for combat; but I make use of all of the features. There's no need for fishing around for extra benefits, it's perfectly good as written.
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Order of Scribes is a great sub-class IMO, Manifest Mind alone makes it one of my favourites for combat; but I make use of all of the features. There's no need for fishing around for extra benefits, it's perfectly good as written.
As written it has said benefit, fishing isn't required.
I've DM'd for a scribes wizard with this benefit, that the quill not have any costs due to not saying it has any costs. There is literally nothing game breaking about it. Nothing. I hand out the loot and control the spells they find, anyway. Nothing about it is hard to manage and running it as written is a fun perk for the player. Win win.
So, yeah, it is perfectly good as written, and it doesn't need some artificial restrictions placed on it. Not for game balance or any other reason.
Where do you get the idea that you can only do this once per day? You can use this ability as often as you want, and most of the time you don't need all that many extra spells; chromatic orb gets you the elemental types for 1st-level, dragon's breath does the same for 2nd-level, 3rd-level is tricker but spirit shroud will get you cold, necrotic and radiant and so-on
Thanks for the clarification in regards to the element transmutation.
I misread the transmutation aspect due to the way it was placed together with the ritual casting aspect.
"Awakened Spellbook: Replace Damage: (No Action)
Awakened Spellbook: Ritual Spells: (No Action)/
Long Rest"
But I still find the class too gold dependent. An evocation wizard can play optimally with only a fireball and his free spells per level. So perhaps its a GM problem in regards to gold, idk..
My assumption is, they removed the gold cost mention from the UA, because while reducing it, copying spells would still cost gold that way. WoTC really need to fix shit like this retroactively. Experimenting a spell becomes redundant the moment you try to copy spells that have material components that costs 500 gold. How many times do you need to casts the spell while experimenting with it to master it and how does experimenting even work. Buying a spell should come with step by step instructions.
Each level up you can just magically know new spells. Like unless it is deliberately written in code, how hard and different can a spell be than your own? You are not a sorcerer, spells should be pretty uniform as they require research and understanding of the world. No matter what you do or how you write it 1+1=2.
Copying a spell should just come down to you understanding the theory behind it, and copying the sigils and whatever, which requires the ink, because you might not get it right the first time. Practicing is pretty pointless when the spell clearly should include everything it needs. And you need to memorize them each time you prepare the spell anyways. "Preparing a new list of wizard spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
If you already mastered the spell when copying preparing spells would as a feature become pointless.
We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
They removed the cost entirely.
No, they didn’t; if the feature changed the cost, it would say so, based on the UA version and all other class features that reduce the cost. As I outlined above, the Doylist reading of scribing any spell is “it costs you 50 gp/spell level to scribe a spell because game balance”; arguing that a ribbon feature on a subclass creates a Watsonian justification for it doesn’t hold up because the Watsonian explanation of the core feature is an after the fact cosmetic justification for the rule, not the basis of the rule itself. It costs 50 gp/level to scribe a spell regardless of whether or not you have an infinite source of ink for the same reason that barring explicitly described exceptions you can’t cast two ninth level spells in one day whether or not you currently have the “magical power” to cast one 9th level and about two dozen weaker spells. The requirements are fixed, not contextual, and only something that explicitly interacts with the cost itself can alter it.
We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
They removed the cost entirely.
No, they didn’t; if the feature changed the cost, it would say so, based on the UA version and all other class features that reduce the cost. As I outlined above, the Doylist reading of scribing any spell is “it costs you 50 gp/spell level to scribe a spell because game balance”; arguing that a ribbon feature on a subclass creates a Watsonian justification for it doesn’t hold up because the Watsonian explanation of the core feature is an after the fact cosmetic justification for the rule, not the basis of the rule itself. It costs 50 gp/level to scribe a spell regardless of whether or not you have an infinite source of ink for the same reason that barring explicitly described exceptions you can’t cast two ninth level spells in one day whether or not you currently have the “magical power” to cast one 9th level and about two dozen weaker spells. The requirements are fixed, not contextual, and only something that explicitly interacts with the cost itself can alter it.
The default rules for copying a spell into your book are fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. The quill cannot interface with them.
The rules the quill provides then must be standalone. And it lists no cost. So there is none. Which makes sense since it creates its own ink.
We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
They removed the cost entirely.
No, they didn’t; if the feature changed the cost, it would say so, based on the UA version and all other class features that reduce the cost. As I outlined above, the Doylist reading of scribing any spell is “it costs you 50 gp/spell level to scribe a spell because game balance”; arguing that a ribbon feature on a subclass creates a Watsonian justification for it doesn’t hold up because the Watsonian explanation of the core feature is an after the fact cosmetic justification for the rule, not the basis of the rule itself. It costs 50 gp/level to scribe a spell regardless of whether or not you have an infinite source of ink for the same reason that barring explicitly described exceptions you can’t cast two ninth level spells in one day whether or not you currently have the “magical power” to cast one 9th level and about two dozen weaker spells. The requirements are fixed, not contextual, and only something that explicitly interacts with the cost itself can alter it.
The default rules for copying a spell into your book are fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. The quill cannot interface with them.
The rules the quill provides then must be standalone. And it lists no cost. So there is none. Which makes sense since it creates its own ink.
The quill says this:
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
It doesn't say you can copy spells into your spellbook with the quill. It says that you gain benefits if you use the quill for copying. With this line of text alone, you cannot copy spells into your spell book. You need the normal rules for copying spells for this line of text to do anything.
Also worth noting that if this text stands completely independent to the normal spell copying rules, you can, while using the quill, copy cantrips, spells that aren't on the Wizard spell list, and spells that you aren't of a high enough level to cast. Those are all things that are covered in the normal spell transcription rules, but aren't here.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
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We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
They removed the cost entirely.
No, they didn’t; if the feature changed the cost, it would say so, based on the UA version and all other class features that reduce the cost. As I outlined above, the Doylist reading of scribing any spell is “it costs you 50 gp/spell level to scribe a spell because game balance”; arguing that a ribbon feature on a subclass creates a Watsonian justification for it doesn’t hold up because the Watsonian explanation of the core feature is an after the fact cosmetic justification for the rule, not the basis of the rule itself. It costs 50 gp/level to scribe a spell regardless of whether or not you have an infinite source of ink for the same reason that barring explicitly described exceptions you can’t cast two ninth level spells in one day whether or not you currently have the “magical power” to cast one 9th level and about two dozen weaker spells. The requirements are fixed, not contextual, and only something that explicitly interacts with the cost itself can alter it.
The default rules for copying a spell into your book are fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. The quill cannot interface with them.
The rules the quill provides then must be standalone. And it lists no cost. So there is none. Which makes sense since it creates its own ink.
The quill says this:
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
It doesn't say you can copy spells into your spellbook with the quill. It says that you gain benefits if you use the quill for copying. With this line of text alone, you cannot copy spells into your spell book. You need the normal rules for copying spells for this line of text to do anything.
Also worth noting that if this text stands completely independent to the normal spell copying rules, you can, while using the quill, copy cantrips, spells that aren't on the Wizard spell list, and spells that you aren't of a high enough level to cast. Those are all things that are covered in the normal spell transcription rules, but aren't here.
The quill creates its own ink. As a subclass feature it only can do what it says.
It doesn't say you can use it with special inks purchased for scribing scrolls. So you can't.
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I got quotes!
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It doesn't cover the entire rules for copying spells, it only mentions copying and it taking less time; it doesn't say anything about which spells you can copy, or how you do it, so there's no reason to think that the Wizardly Quill rule would (or should) fully replace the rules for copying spells.
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RAW can often get silly when you get into the nitty gritty of it,
Although i will note that hour ritual is actually moving your spellbook's consciousness not scribing the spells, the transfer of spells are attributed to the consciousness not your writing "At the end of the rest, your spellbook’s consciousness is summoned into the new book, which the consciousness transforms into your spellbook, along with all its spells." This does not allow you to duplicate a spellbook it replaces it and removes all spells from the original.
Basically this is a silly result but two completely different processes.
One the wizard writing spells into their book (which by my reading in my previous comment only adjusts the time to copy spells since it makes no mention of the other portions of the generic "Your Spellbook" rules) which takes them 2 minutes per spell level, you can justify the costs however you like (experimental materials, some treatment that must be done to the spellbook other than the ink supplied by the quill, ect.)
The other is the Consciousness created by the Awakened Spellbook feature being transplanted during a rest and magically moving the spells it contains from one book to the other (replacing the original not duplicating it)
You're making the assumption that it has to have those restrictions. It doesn't say it does. So, doesn't.
The magic quill writes them into your spellbook. The only requirement is 2 minutes per level.
I got quotes!
I think what Noksa is referring to is that the spellbook you transferred the consciousness from becomes blank, it does not destroy the spells within the book that you are transferring to – the rule only states that you copy spells into the new book and then the consciousness transfers, at which point you will have an awakened spellbook that not only contains the spells you knew, but also the ones that the new book comes with.
Meanwhile your original spellbook will now be blank – so you only ever have one spellbook containing all of the spells you know.
It does however mean that if you then transferred the consciousness again you could effectively remove those spells from the treatise, so if someone else were to then attune to it they would only gain its other benefits (fast spell switching and bonus evocation damage).
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Confirming that this is my interpretation of the awakened spell-book feature.
My reading of the Magic Quill bullet is as a modification of an existing rule:
Magic Quill bullet: "The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription."
modifies the following rule
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells."
which becomes
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 minutes and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells."
If your dm allows this feature to remove all requirements for copying a spell that's fine at their/your table, i see the argument for RAW but disagree with it. I also believe full cost is rules as intended because the UA included language reducing the cost which was removed in the final version
UA Text: "The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook are halved if you use the quill."
Final Text: ""The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.""
Edit: For the record, when I played a scribes wizard i asked my DM to allow the UA version of this feature since logically paying full price while bringing my own ink didn't make logical sense to me
That seems to be what several people are doing. But, I'd point out, it doesn't actually modify the rule, it isn't phrased as a modification in any way. Compare it to savant, which is a modification to those rules.
One explicitly references and then modifies the existing default process for spellbook copying.
The other doesn't do either. It stands entirely on its own.
You can either use magic inks and practice, spending 50gp and all that. -or- you can use the magical quill, which takes just 2 minutes per level (and does its own ink)
This is further evidence that they changed it such that it became its own separate method of transcription. They started off with all that verbiage referencing back to the original default method, and verbiage on how to modify that method.
Then, inexplicably, they rephrased it in a way that no longer references the original method, that no longer directly modifies it either. The intent here is clear, they wanted it to stand independent, as its own method.
Yeah. They originally reference the default method and then released an official version that no longer does so. That's a design change.
I got quotes!
They took out the word gold and changed halved to 2 minutes, how is it not referencing the same rule?
They just modified the to copy a spell into your spell book rule that is referenced in your abjuration example, the UA, and the final version of the quill using the phrase "the (part being modified) you must spend to copy (limitation of relevant) spell into your spellbook is (how it is modified)."
Because it doesn't reference the rule.
References would be like
- halves the
- changes it
- instead of
- no longer need
etc.
They call back to the original in some way. They reference what theyre changing.
Savant does this. It reverenced back to the gold and time cost of the default copy rule. It then tells us how that rule is to be modied. Costs are halved. So this us us referencing the original rule and then applying a change to it.
The magic quill. The published version, doesn't do that. It doesn't reference back nothing about it refers to anything from the default rule. And it doesn't use reference language.
It also doesn't say to modify anything either. The sentence and rule it presents stands entirely on its own. You can parce it entirely on its own without referencing the original rule. Ie. It is complete unto itself.
Like. Answer this question -without- referencing the original rule.
How long does it take an abjurer to copy a 4th level abjuration spell into their spellbook?
Vs
How long does it take a scribes wizard to copy that same spell into their spellbook?
You cannot answer this question for the abjurer without referencing the original method rules.
You can answer it for the scribes wizard, though.
This is what it means. The scribes wizard doesnt reference the original. It is complete unto itself.
I got quotes!
It sounds like we disagree on the fundamental requirements to make a call to an existing rule.
For me the "The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook " is enough to invoke the copy a spell rules, the modification itself doesn't need to be calculated off the original rule.
I guess we aren't coming together on this, so if we ever end up at a table together the DM gets to decide ;)
So, what I got from all of this it the fact that the order of the scribes is between one of the weakest wizard traditions or one of the better depending on if we follow the RAW strictly.
Wizardly quill: 2 Minutes to write down spells in a dungeon is useless due to the fact that you need to train with material components, which mostly exists during downtime at shops anyways... Better just steal the books then?!?
Awakened spell book: Most DM's are never gonna target or destroy a wizards spellbook and even then you could just buy an enduring spellbook instead. The ability to change the damage type of spell can be useful. However it can only be done once per day and forces you to seemingly waste tons of gold on mediocre spells just to make this viable. Better results can be achieved when you can take feats such as elemental adept or meta magic initiative.
Manifest mind: Nothing to say here great feature.
Master Scrivener: 1 Free spell per day.
One with the word: Would be great if it wasn't fully reliant on accumulating spells, which becomes a tedious side quest.
All the other wizards gets their features for free while the scribes is bound to collecting spells to be useful which makes it extremely gold dependent compared to the other wizards. I always saw the quill as a compensation for the other semi-lackluster features.
It still saves a lot of time; if you find three 1st-level scrolls, then ordinarily that'd be a minimum of 6 hours to copy those scrolls, for an Order of Scribes Wizard it's 6 minutes, and the benefit is only amplified the higher level those scrolls are.
How much of a benefit this will be will depend on how much downtime your DM gives you, but even if they're relatively generous there will still be times where as Order of Scribes you can squeeze in copying a spell where another wizard simply can't. Plus time you save is time you can spend on something else; it means more hours to spend on crafting potions or magic items, gambling, researching etc. I always find it a huge shame when DMs skip over downtime as it can be such a rich part of the game; D&D doesn't need to just be non-stop combat with the occasional 8 hours asleep.
Where do you get the idea that you can only do this once per day? You can use this ability as often as you want, and most of the time you don't need all that many extra spells; chromatic orb gets you the elemental types for 1st-level, dragon's breath does the same for 2nd-level, 3rd-level is tricker but spirit shroud will get you cold, necrotic and radiant and so-on.
Most of the time you really only need one or two backup types, most resistant enemies are only immune or resistant to a single type, fewer are immune/resistant to two, and fewer still are resistant to 3+ (and of those that are, 3 will be bludgeoning/piercing/slashing). The ones I tend to prioritise are force and psychic damage, as very few things are immune or resistant to those, and I can't think of anything offhand that's immune or resistant to both, plus anything that is can probably be hurt by whatever damage type the spell does in the first place. Point is, you don't need every damage type at every level, just having a choice of two or three makes it extremely unlikely you can't hurt an enemy.
While it requires a little bit of work, so does Wizard in general, and it's a great ability; Sorcerers have to take Transmuted Spell and spend 1 sorcery point every time they want to change damage type.
It's a cheat death ability that you get at a level where Wizards are already really strong (and most campaigns won't get beyond 10th-level or so anyway).
Order of Scribes is a great sub-class IMO, Manifest Mind alone makes it one of my favourites for combat; but I make use of all of the features. There's no need for fishing around for extra benefits, it's perfectly good as written.
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As written it has said benefit, fishing isn't required.
I've DM'd for a scribes wizard with this benefit, that the quill not have any costs due to not saying it has any costs. There is literally nothing game breaking about it. Nothing. I hand out the loot and control the spells they find, anyway. Nothing about it is hard to manage and running it as written is a fun perk for the player. Win win.
So, yeah, it is perfectly good as written, and it doesn't need some artificial restrictions placed on it. Not for game balance or any other reason.
I got quotes!
Thanks for the clarification in regards to the element transmutation.
I misread the transmutation aspect due to the way it was placed together with the ritual casting aspect.
"Awakened Spellbook: Replace Damage: (No Action)Awakened Spellbook: Ritual Spells: (No Action)/Long Rest"
But I still find the class too gold dependent. An evocation wizard can play optimally with only a fireball and his free spells per level. So perhaps its a GM problem in regards to gold, idk..
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My assumption is, they removed the gold cost mention from the UA, because while reducing it, copying spells would still cost gold that way.
WoTC really need to fix shit like this retroactively. Experimenting a spell becomes redundant the moment you try to copy spells that have material components that costs 500 gold. How many times do you need to casts the spell while experimenting with it to master it and how does experimenting even work. Buying a spell should come with step by step instructions.
Each level up you can just magically know new spells. Like unless it is deliberately written in code, how hard and different can a spell be than your own? You are not a sorcerer, spells should be pretty uniform as they require research and understanding of the world. No matter what you do or how you write it 1+1=2.
Copying a spell should just come down to you understanding the theory behind it, and copying the sigils and whatever, which requires the ink, because you might not get it right the first time. Practicing is pretty pointless when the spell clearly should include everything it needs. And you need to memorize them each time you prepare the spell anyways.
"Preparing a new list of wizard spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
If you already mastered the spell when copying preparing spells would as a feature become pointless.
We can argue Watsonian reasons for or against gold cost and its remaining static when Scribes sharply decreases the time factor, but at the end of the day the Doylist explanation is that the cost is a way to limit the Wizard’s repertoire, which will still far exceed any other arcane caster from the outset and offers a more versatile spread and some stronger effects than primal or divine. They clearly first considered effectively doubling the subclass’s scribing capabilities compared to all other Wizards, and decided against it in favor of massively reducing the time component while maintaining the cost gate, keeping Scribes from becoming the uncontested best option if your DM provides spellbooks and scrolls to scribe from.
They removed the cost entirely.
I got quotes!
No, they didn’t; if the feature changed the cost, it would say so, based on the UA version and all other class features that reduce the cost. As I outlined above, the Doylist reading of scribing any spell is “it costs you 50 gp/spell level to scribe a spell because game balance”; arguing that a ribbon feature on a subclass creates a Watsonian justification for it doesn’t hold up because the Watsonian explanation of the core feature is an after the fact cosmetic justification for the rule, not the basis of the rule itself. It costs 50 gp/level to scribe a spell regardless of whether or not you have an infinite source of ink for the same reason that barring explicitly described exceptions you can’t cast two ninth level spells in one day whether or not you currently have the “magical power” to cast one 9th level and about two dozen weaker spells. The requirements are fixed, not contextual, and only something that explicitly interacts with the cost itself can alter it.
The default rules for copying a spell into your book are fundamentally incompatible with the magic quill. The quill cannot interface with them.
The rules the quill provides then must be standalone. And it lists no cost. So there is none. Which makes sense since it creates its own ink.
I got quotes!
The quill says this:
It doesn't say you can copy spells into your spellbook with the quill. It says that you gain benefits if you use the quill for copying. With this line of text alone, you cannot copy spells into your spell book. You need the normal rules for copying spells for this line of text to do anything.
Also worth noting that if this text stands completely independent to the normal spell copying rules, you can, while using the quill, copy cantrips, spells that aren't on the Wizard spell list, and spells that you aren't of a high enough level to cast. Those are all things that are covered in the normal spell transcription rules, but aren't here.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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The quill creates its own ink. As a subclass feature it only can do what it says.
It doesn't say you can use it with special inks purchased for scribing scrolls. So you can't.
I got quotes!