Well, in my opinion that's one of the only interpretations that is definitely incorrect. The quill produces its own ink. It's one of the three bullet points in the description of the Wizardly Quill feature that explains the properties of the quill. Just like there doesn't seem to be much debate about the fact that using the quill for transcription requires 2 minutes per level (since that is also one of the three bullet points of the feature) there really shouldn't be much debate about the fact that the quill produces its own ink. So, at a minimum the material cost involved in the overall process should be reduced by the cost of the ink.
Beyond that, I'm having trouble figuring out what you are arguing about. Why would you even bring up the Awakened Spellbook replacement feature? I'm talking about the default rules for a Wizard attempting to copy a spell. I spent a lot of time starting out discussing the default rules in order to establish some logic behind how much things usually cost. It's not spelled out perfectly -- the way that you get there, as I've explained, is to take a look at both of the default activities and understanding what is different about them. Using some pretty straightforward logic we can determine that the materials for experimentation cost 40 gp and the ink costs 10 gp. In addition, the time cost is 1 hour for deciphering and experimentation and 1 hour for transcription. All of this has nothing to do with the Awakened Spellbook -- it's just the default rules for copying spells.
Once this is all established we can then take a look at how things have changed when we apply the Tiny Quill to this process. I've provided 3 possible interpretations based on what we think is meant by the phrase "time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes". My first interpretation is the least likely since the phrase "copy a spell into your spell book" very closely matches up with the default activity of "Copying a Spell Into the Book" which is the heading given for the whole process. Interpretation #2 is plausible but it would be really weird for the deciphering and experimentation portions of the process to burn up just as many resources but to all of a sudden change from taking 1 hour to complete to taking less than 2 minutes simply because we are using a different quill. Thus, the most likely correct interpretation is my #3 above.
Why would you work under the assumption that the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Also, the "logic" that you used to determine how much the ink costs is really just a set of assumptions, and therefore very difficult to justify, RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, perhaps coincidentally, there is a standard item listed in the Equipment chapter -> Other Adventuring Gear called Ink (1 ounce bottle) which happens to cost exactly 10 gp as well. Whether or not this is the same ink that is referred to as "fine ink" in the Wizard "Your Spellbook" sidebar is open to debate to be sure but I find this "coincidence" interesting.
But, what do you mean about the set of assumptions? The derivation is based on the only information that we have on the subject throughout all of the sourcebooks and doesn't seem like a very difficult conclusion to draw. We have one activity involving materials for experiments and inks for writing that totals 50 gp and another activity that involves the same amount of writing and nothing else that costs 10 gp -- why do we need the book to show this math for us? We really can't conclude that the first activity breaks down into two types of materials that cost 40 gp and 10 gp? Yes, we can say that this breakdown is not explicit in the text. Yes, we can say that maybe it's not the correct ink even though no source book suggests the existence of or a price for some other "fine" ink. We'd rather just throw our hands up in the air and say that all of this is completely unknown when we're given 90% of the information?
As for why the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Why wouldn't it be? Why would this item and/or this feature exist for a wizard if they couldn't use it to scribe a spell? That would be silly. "The magic quill has the following properties:" It's magic. But somehow it still wouldn't produce good enough ink? What? In my opinion, the ink produced by the quill is even better quality than the fine inks that are typically used. The fine inks probably come in a set of bottles of different colors -- a finite number of colors. But the quill can produce ANY color! What's better than that!? Also, just the structure of how the feature is written pretty much requires that the ink produced IS good enough. The first bullet point says that the quill produces its own ink. The very next bullet point talks about copying a spell into your spellbook "if you use the quill for the transcription." Since the quill can be used to scribe a spell and the quill operates by producing its own ink then in fact that ink must be good enough to scribe spells. Since the feature says "When you write with it, it produces ink" that means that you actually cannot write with it without it producing ink -- so its ink IS going into the scribed spell. It must be good enough.
Well, perhaps coincidentally, there is a standard item listed in the Equipment chapter -> Other Adventuring Gear called Ink (1 ounce bottle) which happens to cost exactly 10 gp as well. Whether or not this is the same ink that is referred to as "fine ink" in the Wizard "Your Spellbook" sidebar is open to debate to be sure but I find this "coincidence" interesting.
1 ounce is a lot of ink. Like, thousands of pages. If an ounce of normal ink costs as much as enough "fine ink" to scribe a single 1st level spell, I think it's pretty clear that normal ink and "fine ink" are pretty damn different. "Coincidence?" I think not! As in, not even remotely! As in, barely any correlation at all!
But, what do you mean about the set of assumptions? The derivation is based on the only information that we have on the subject throughout all of the sourcebooks and doesn't seem like a very difficult conclusion to draw. We have one activity involving materials for experiments and inks for writing that totals 50 gp and another activity that involves the same amount of writing and nothing else that costs 10 gp -- why do we need the book to show this math for us? We really can't conclude that the first activity breaks down into two types of materials that cost 40 gp and 10 gp? Yes, we can say that this breakdown is not explicit in the text. Yes, we can say that maybe it's not the correct ink even though no source book suggests the existence of or a price for some other "fine" ink. We'd rather just throw our hands up in the air and say that all of this is completely unknown when we're given 90% of the information?
If only 90% of the information is written, then the remaining 10% of the information isn't RAW, because it isn't written, and the phrase "Rules as Written" kinda assumes that the rules that you're talking about are written. The rules are not a logic puzzle.
Present a situation where assumptions like the ones you're making are absolutely necessary to understand the rules, and maybe I'll concede the point, but in lack of such a situation, rules do what they say they do.
As for why the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Why wouldn't it be? Why would this item and/or this feature exist for a wizard if they couldn't use it to scribe a spell? That would be silly. "The magic quill has the following properties:" It's magic. But somehow it still wouldn't produce good enough ink? What? In my opinion, the ink produced by the quill is even better quality than the fine inks that are typically used. The fine inks probably come in a set of bottles of different colors -- a finite number of colors. But the quill can produce ANY color! What's better than that!? Also, just the structure of how the feature is written pretty much requires that the ink produced IS good enough. The first bullet point says that the quill produces its own ink. The very next bullet point talks about copying a spell into your spellbook "if you use the quill for the transcription." Since the quill can be used to scribe a spell and the quill operates by producing its own ink then in fact that ink must be good enough to scribe spells. Since the feature says "When you write with it, it produces ink" that means that you actually cannot write with it without it producing ink -- so its ink IS going into the scribed spell. It must be good enough.
The idea that anything created by magic is inherently better than anything not created by magic is just another big assumption. I mean, if you have any text from the book that says this, then you might have a point, but I don't remember reading anything that says the wine produced by a Alchemy Jug is the best wine in the world.
The quill always produces ink onto a writing surface, yes. Even when it's empty. It doesn't, however, necessarily produce its own ink onto a writing surface. It just always produces ink onto a writing surface. If the quill has special fine inks in its reservoir, then it will produce those inks onto a writing surface, like all quills do when they have ink in them. The fact that the quill's magically-created ink is not of a high enough quality to scribe spells does not mean that the quill is incapable of scribing spells. I've been over all of this in this thread, so I recommend you read back a bit.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The quill always produces ink onto a writing surface, yes. Even when it's empty. It doesn't, however, necessarily produce its own ink onto a writing surface. It just always produces ink onto a writing surface. If the quill has special fine inks in its reservoir, then it will produce those inks onto a writing surface, like all quills do when they have ink in them. The fact that the quill's magically-created ink is not of a high enough quality to scribe spells does not mean that the quill is incapable of scribing spells.
This is incorrect.
The text says this:
When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice
Since the ink is a color of your choice, it specifically is NOT talking about ink from a bottle, which would have a predetermined color. It is impossible to write with this quill and not have it produce its own ink. When you write with this quill it WILL produce ink on the writing surface. This is well defined right in the first bullet point of the feature.
1 ounce is a lot of ink. Like, thousands of pages. If an ounce of normal ink costs as much as enough "fine ink" to scribe a single 1st level spell, I think it's pretty clear that normal ink and "fine ink" are pretty damn different. "Coincidence?" I think not! As in, not even remotely! As in, barely any correlation at all
I'll defer on how much ink this is, I really have no idea. I know that a small shot glass of alcohol contains about 1.5 ounces of liquid so the actual volume of 1 ounce of liquid is quite small, but how many pages can be written with this ink using ancient technology? I have no idea really and this sort of thinking starts to get beyond the scope of the game in my opinion.
Another interpretation is that "fine ink" could just be like "fresh" ink -- once you uncork the stopper of the ink bottle you need to use what you need right away or it will "spoil" and you just throw away the rest of the bottle if you don't have more mundane uses for ink. Sort of like how a wine snob might open a fresh bottle of wine and would scoff at the concept of putting the cork back into the bottle and saving the rest of the wine for next week -- it wouldn't be the same quality wine next week since the bottle has already been uncorked. But you could still drink it for more mundane tasks such as getting drunk, if desired.
This is obviously not spelled out anywhere and is just drifting into DM interpretation territory so if you want to rule that the standard Adventuring Gear item of Ink (1 ounce bottle) is not the correct item to use for spell scribing then go for it, but if another DM decides that this ink will work just fine then that is fine too.
----------
As for the rest of your argument, it's a fair point that what I've presented is probably more of a ruling than a rule. The fact is, I've used all of the available information in the rules for my analysis and conclusion -- there just isn't anything more written in the text. When that happens, a DM has to just use the information that is available and then make a ruling.
I still think that my interpretation #3 above is the "most correct" ruling. But if a DM is really concerned about making this process "free" for this type of Wizard then the next best ruling is interpretation #2, which is 2 minutes and 40 gp per level. I just think that narratively that solution is really awkward and doesn't make any sense and most other interpretations are just clearly incorrect.
Since the ink is a color of your choice, it specifically is NOT talking about ink from a bottle
"I want ink of the colour I put in" is as valid a choice as any other.
It is impossible to write with this quill and not have it produce its own ink
That's not what it says; what it says is that it doesn't require ink, not that it only produces its own, or can't use inks that you provide. Either of these would be another additional assumption required; bows that produce their own ammunition are still capable of using ammunition you provide, an Artificer's Repeating Shot doesn't prevent you from using existing ammunition etc., so there's ample precedent for using your own.
When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice
This quill WILL 100% produce its own ink when you write with it. Whether or not you might ALSO be trying to involve some other ink in the process is another story, but ink WILL be produced by the quill. You can't not have this happen. You could try to write something in such a manner where the quill sort of spits out two inks at the same time but I would rule that you would ruin your scroll if you did something silly like this.
Whether or not you might ALSO be trying to involve some other ink in the process is another story, but ink WILL be produced by the quill.
As Quar1on has already covered at length, ordinary, mundane quills also produce ink when you write with them, as that's how they work. The difference is you have to fill their reservoir first, so what's actually special about the Wizardly Quill is that it doesn't need to refilled if all you want to do is write with it.
It's very much a flavour and RP feature, like prestidigitation making mundane tasks easier; a Scribes Wizard is never without a quill and ink.
In the UA it used to reduce the cost of copying spells, but they explicitly removed that as a feature; now all it does is reduce the time, which balances it against other sub-classes that only halve time and cost for specific schools of magic. Scribes pays full cost, but can copy spells from any school of magic and do it faster than anyone else.
When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice
This quill WILL 100% produce its own ink when you write with it. Whether or not you might ALSO be trying to involve some other ink in the process is another story, but ink WILL be produced by the quill. You can't not have this happen. You could try to write something in such a manner where the quill sort of spits out two inks at the same time but I would rule that you would ruin your scroll if you did something silly like this.
Correction:
This quill WILL 100% produce ink when you write with it. Whether or not this ink is magically made within the quill or taken from a physical reservoir is another story, but ink WILL be produced by the quill. You can't not have this happen.
Yes, you can always choose the color of the ink that the quill produces. That just means that if you put a bunch of black ink into the reservoir, you could make it come out green. It doesn't really change the issue.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I disagree vehemently with that interpretation. The feature uses the word "produces".
When googling the phrase "dictionary produces", the very first result provides this definition:
"to bring into existence; give rise to; cause"
When googling the phrase "how does a quill work", the very first result provides this explanation:
"The point of the feather is treated so it can be used for writing, and a hollow shaft of the feather holds the ink, which, from there, flows to the tip by capillary action.
These two concepts are not the same and should not be used as a substitute for each other. The assumption that this quill can function by inserting outside ink and then only using that ink when writing with it is a poor one which does not accurately reflect the feature description of "When you write with it, it produces ink".
The manner in which this feature functions is so obvious that it's honestly mind-boggling that such knowledgeable forum posters can possibly be making the argument that you are trying to make here. This quill very obviously produces its own ink each and every time that you write with it.
I disagree vehemently with that interpretation. The feature uses the word "produces".
When googling the phrase "dictionary produces", the very first result provides this definition:
"to bring into existence; give rise to; cause"
When googling the phrase "how does a quill work", the very first result provides this explanation:
"The point of the feather is treated so it can be used for writing, and a hollow shaft of the feather holds the ink, which, from there, flows to the tip by capillary action.
These two concepts are not the same and should not be used as a substitute for each other. The assumption that this quill can function by inserting outside ink and then only using that ink when writing with it is a poor one which does not accurately reflect the feature description of "When you write with it, it produces ink".
The manner in which this feature functions is so obvious that it's honestly mind-boggling that such knowledgeable forum posters can possibly be making the argument that you are trying to make here. This quill very obviously produces its own ink each and every time that you write with it.
If you read a bit past the very first result, you would have seen another definition.
show or provide (something) for consideration, inspection, or use. "he produced a sheet of paper from his pocket"
The manner in which this man functions is so obvious that it's honestly mind-boggling that such knowledgeable forum posters can possibly be making the argument that we are trying to make here. This man obviously manufactures his own paper each and every time that he pulls paper from his pocket.
I've been over all this already. You claim that you've read this thread entirely, but that doesn't exactly seem true.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
This is all the rules have to say on the matter. Any further breakdown as to what is actually being bought with the gold is a ruling a DM is free to make, but that is as specific as the rules get.
As Haravikk pointed out the play test version of the Order of Scribes subclass used to change both the time and gold required to copy spells into your spellbook. Here is how that feature used to look:
"The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook are halved if you use the quill for the transcription." - (Google it)
However, the final version that was published in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now only mentions changing the time taken:
It makes no mention of changing the gold required or the materials needed to transcribe a spell.
As a side note the Wizardly Quill feature makes no mention as to what the gold value for the ink the quill produces is. Unlike most conjured objects it doesn't vanish or have a limit to the value it can produce. At a table where a GM rules that the ink the Wizardly Quill produces has a gold value I can see a creative player engineering a contraption to turn the quill into an ink factory.
I am fairly sure ''produce'' is used as synonymous to make or create and means it's not requiring additional ink. While the Wizardly Quill doesn't specifically say it produce fine ink, i would assume it's of sufficient quality to copy spells with it since the it can cut time if you use the quill for the transcription.
I've been over all this already. You claim that you've read this thread entirely, but that doesn't exactly seem true.
Yes of course you've been over all this already. So what? That doesn't make your arguments any more convincing than the first time that you've said them.
You've now claimed twice that I haven't read through this thread even though I've told you that I have. Don't do it again.
This is all the rules have to say on the matter. Any further breakdown as to what is actually being bought with the gold is a ruling a DM is free to make, but that is as specific as the rules get.
This isn't entirely true. From the "Your Spellbook" sidebar in the Wizard class description, we have this information:
Copying a Spell into the Book. . . .
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it.
Replacing the Book. . . . to make a backup copy of your spellbook. This is just like copying a new spell into your spellbook, but faster and easier, since you understand your own notation [so no reproducing the basic form or deciphering required] and already know how to cast the spell [so no practice or experimentation (and thus no material components) required]. You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level of the copied spell [all that is required is the transcribe process and the fine inks used for that process].
Yes, it's true, the text doesn't do the math for us. Mostly, if that were included it would mostly just bloat the text with redundant and unnecessary additional information. For the purposes of our discussion here it would be nice if they had summarized the costs above in one concise sentence that we could all cut-and-paste and agree upon, but sometimes it takes a little digging to consolidate the information that's provided.
I've been over all this already. You claim that you've read this thread entirely, but that doesn't exactly seem true.
Yes of course you've been over all this already. So what? That doesn't make your arguments any more convincing than the first time that you've said them.
You've now claimed twice that I haven't read through this thread even though I've told you that I have. Don't do it again.
If you want to give the impression that you have already read and understood opposing arguments, you should acknowledge them instead of ignoring them. When you made your point using the definition of produce, you failed to acknowledge that I already addressed that point. You've failed to acknowledge it again, even though I just made the same point that I made earlier in the thread.
I am fairly sure ''produce'' is used as synonymous to make or create and means it's not requiring additional ink.
I agree. The quill doesn't require any additional ink.
While the Wizardly Quill doesn't specifically say it produce fine ink, i would assume it's of sufficient quality to copy spells with it since the it can cut time if you use the quill for the transcription.
Like you said, that's an assumption. Nothing in the quill says that it produces fine ink. You might have a point if the quill magically producing fine ink were the only way to scribe spells with it, but nothing says that the quill can't produce its ink from a reservoir, so it could just be filled with fine ink. Whether or not the quill's magically produced ink is "fine," the quill can be used to scribe spells, which means your assumption is pretty baseless.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
but nothing says that the quill can't produce its ink from a reservoir, so it could just be filled with fine ink.
It kind of does though. The quill will always produce ink of any color. In addition to this I suppose you could try to put your own ink into it but you would end up writing with 2 inks at once which probably will not yield very good results regardless of how fine each ink is individually.
nothing says that the quill can't produce its ink from a reservoir
It doesn't require ink just like Undead Nature doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep which to me all means it runs without.
Yeah, I agree. It doesn't require ink. It can use physical ink, though, because it would still be producing ink onto a writing surface, which is all that the feature says it does.
It's not a perfect analogy because the wording is different, but a monster with Undead Nature can still breathe, eat, drink, and sleep.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
but nothing says that the quill can't produce its ink from a reservoir, so it could just be filled with fine ink.
It kind of does though. The quill will always produce ink of any color. In addition to this I suppose you could try to put your own ink into it but you would end up writing with 2 inks at once which probably will not yield very good results regardless of how fine each ink is individually.
The quill will always produce ink of any color. I know this. My point is that the location it is producing this ink from could be a physical reservoir. That would still be following all the rules.
If it's producing ink (from a physical reservoir) onto a writing surface, it seems weird to believe that it would also produce another ink at the same time. It doesn't say that it produces two inks, it just says that it produces ink, which is what it would already be doing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
My point is that the location it is producing this ink from could be a physical reservoir.
Nope. This quill produces ink of any color. The ink that you put into a physical reservoir has a fixed color.
Look, I have looked at all of the relevant text and I have determined that when I am the DM and this situation comes up, that there will be no monetary cost involved in completing this process because that's my interpretation of the rules as written, among other reasons. If for some reason you want to rule in your games that it costs just as much for this Wizard as for any other Wizard then go knock yourself out I guess -- as the DM you can rule it however you want.
My point is that the location it is producing this ink from could be a physical reservoir.
Nope. This quill produces ink of any color. The ink that you put into a physical reservoir has a fixed color.
Correction: the quill produces ink in any color. It doesn't say anything about the ink, just how it's produced. There's no reason that that statement should restrict what inks can be produced (in a color of your choice) by the feature. Besides, even if you were right, you could choose the ink that's produced to be the color that the ink is.
Example: If there were a magical tube, and you could put golf balls through it, and the tube said that it "produces the golf balls in a color of your choice on the other side of the tube," then it wouldn't mean you couldn't put any golf balls through the tube, it would mean that you could put any golf balls through the tube that you want and they'd come out in a color of your choice.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Why would you work under the assumption that the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Also, the "logic" that you used to determine how much the ink costs is really just a set of assumptions, and therefore very difficult to justify, RAW.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, perhaps coincidentally, there is a standard item listed in the Equipment chapter -> Other Adventuring Gear called Ink (1 ounce bottle) which happens to cost exactly 10 gp as well. Whether or not this is the same ink that is referred to as "fine ink" in the Wizard "Your Spellbook" sidebar is open to debate to be sure but I find this "coincidence" interesting.
But, what do you mean about the set of assumptions? The derivation is based on the only information that we have on the subject throughout all of the sourcebooks and doesn't seem like a very difficult conclusion to draw. We have one activity involving materials for experiments and inks for writing that totals 50 gp and another activity that involves the same amount of writing and nothing else that costs 10 gp -- why do we need the book to show this math for us? We really can't conclude that the first activity breaks down into two types of materials that cost 40 gp and 10 gp? Yes, we can say that this breakdown is not explicit in the text. Yes, we can say that maybe it's not the correct ink even though no source book suggests the existence of or a price for some other "fine" ink. We'd rather just throw our hands up in the air and say that all of this is completely unknown when we're given 90% of the information?
As for why the ink produced by the quill is of an adequate quality for scribing spells? Why wouldn't it be? Why would this item and/or this feature exist for a wizard if they couldn't use it to scribe a spell? That would be silly. "The magic quill has the following properties:" It's magic. But somehow it still wouldn't produce good enough ink? What? In my opinion, the ink produced by the quill is even better quality than the fine inks that are typically used. The fine inks probably come in a set of bottles of different colors -- a finite number of colors. But the quill can produce ANY color! What's better than that!? Also, just the structure of how the feature is written pretty much requires that the ink produced IS good enough. The first bullet point says that the quill produces its own ink. The very next bullet point talks about copying a spell into your spellbook "if you use the quill for the transcription." Since the quill can be used to scribe a spell and the quill operates by producing its own ink then in fact that ink must be good enough to scribe spells. Since the feature says "When you write with it, it produces ink" that means that you actually cannot write with it without it producing ink -- so its ink IS going into the scribed spell. It must be good enough.
1 ounce is a lot of ink. Like, thousands of pages. If an ounce of normal ink costs as much as enough "fine ink" to scribe a single 1st level spell, I think it's pretty clear that normal ink and "fine ink" are pretty damn different. "Coincidence?" I think not! As in, not even remotely! As in, barely any correlation at all!
If only 90% of the information is written, then the remaining 10% of the information isn't RAW, because it isn't written, and the phrase "Rules as Written" kinda assumes that the rules that you're talking about are written. The rules are not a logic puzzle.
Present a situation where assumptions like the ones you're making are absolutely necessary to understand the rules, and maybe I'll concede the point, but in lack of such a situation, rules do what they say they do.
The idea that anything created by magic is inherently better than anything not created by magic is just another big assumption. I mean, if you have any text from the book that says this, then you might have a point, but I don't remember reading anything that says the wine produced by a Alchemy Jug is the best wine in the world.
The quill always produces ink onto a writing surface, yes. Even when it's empty. It doesn't, however, necessarily produce its own ink onto a writing surface. It just always produces ink onto a writing surface. If the quill has special fine inks in its reservoir, then it will produce those inks onto a writing surface, like all quills do when they have ink in them. The fact that the quill's magically-created ink is not of a high enough quality to scribe spells does not mean that the quill is incapable of scribing spells. I've been over all of this in this thread, so I recommend you read back a bit.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No, I've read through this entire thread already, I'm all set with that.
This is incorrect.
The text says this:
Since the ink is a color of your choice, it specifically is NOT talking about ink from a bottle, which would have a predetermined color. It is impossible to write with this quill and not have it produce its own ink. When you write with this quill it WILL produce ink on the writing surface. This is well defined right in the first bullet point of the feature.
I'll defer on how much ink this is, I really have no idea. I know that a small shot glass of alcohol contains about 1.5 ounces of liquid so the actual volume of 1 ounce of liquid is quite small, but how many pages can be written with this ink using ancient technology? I have no idea really and this sort of thinking starts to get beyond the scope of the game in my opinion.
Another interpretation is that "fine ink" could just be like "fresh" ink -- once you uncork the stopper of the ink bottle you need to use what you need right away or it will "spoil" and you just throw away the rest of the bottle if you don't have more mundane uses for ink. Sort of like how a wine snob might open a fresh bottle of wine and would scoff at the concept of putting the cork back into the bottle and saving the rest of the wine for next week -- it wouldn't be the same quality wine next week since the bottle has already been uncorked. But you could still drink it for more mundane tasks such as getting drunk, if desired.
This is obviously not spelled out anywhere and is just drifting into DM interpretation territory so if you want to rule that the standard Adventuring Gear item of Ink (1 ounce bottle) is not the correct item to use for spell scribing then go for it, but if another DM decides that this ink will work just fine then that is fine too.
----------
As for the rest of your argument, it's a fair point that what I've presented is probably more of a ruling than a rule. The fact is, I've used all of the available information in the rules for my analysis and conclusion -- there just isn't anything more written in the text. When that happens, a DM has to just use the information that is available and then make a ruling.
I still think that my interpretation #3 above is the "most correct" ruling. But if a DM is really concerned about making this process "free" for this type of Wizard then the next best ruling is interpretation #2, which is 2 minutes and 40 gp per level. I just think that narratively that solution is really awkward and doesn't make any sense and most other interpretations are just clearly incorrect.
"I want ink of the colour I put in" is as valid a choice as any other.
That's not what it says; what it says is that it doesn't require ink, not that it only produces its own, or can't use inks that you provide. Either of these would be another additional assumption required; bows that produce their own ammunition are still capable of using ammunition you provide, an Artificer's Repeating Shot doesn't prevent you from using existing ammunition etc., so there's ample precedent for using your own.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
This quill WILL 100% produce its own ink when you write with it. Whether or not you might ALSO be trying to involve some other ink in the process is another story, but ink WILL be produced by the quill. You can't not have this happen. You could try to write something in such a manner where the quill sort of spits out two inks at the same time but I would rule that you would ruin your scroll if you did something silly like this.
As Quar1on has already covered at length, ordinary, mundane quills also produce ink when you write with them, as that's how they work. The difference is you have to fill their reservoir first, so what's actually special about the Wizardly Quill is that it doesn't need to refilled if all you want to do is write with it.
It's very much a flavour and RP feature, like prestidigitation making mundane tasks easier; a Scribes Wizard is never without a quill and ink.
In the UA it used to reduce the cost of copying spells, but they explicitly removed that as a feature; now all it does is reduce the time, which balances it against other sub-classes that only halve time and cost for specific schools of magic. Scribes pays full cost, but can copy spells from any school of magic and do it faster than anyone else.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Correction:
This quill WILL 100% produce ink when you write with it. Whether or not this ink is magically made within the quill or taken from a physical reservoir is another story, but ink WILL be produced by the quill. You can't not have this happen.
Yes, you can always choose the color of the ink that the quill produces. That just means that if you put a bunch of black ink into the reservoir, you could make it come out green. It doesn't really change the issue.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I disagree vehemently with that interpretation. The feature uses the word "produces".
When googling the phrase "dictionary produces", the very first result provides this definition:
"to bring into existence; give rise to; cause"
When googling the phrase "how does a quill work", the very first result provides this explanation:
"The point of the feather is treated so it can be used for writing, and a hollow shaft of the feather holds the ink, which, from there, flows to the tip by capillary action.
These two concepts are not the same and should not be used as a substitute for each other. The assumption that this quill can function by inserting outside ink and then only using that ink when writing with it is a poor one which does not accurately reflect the feature description of "When you write with it, it produces ink".
The manner in which this feature functions is so obvious that it's honestly mind-boggling that such knowledgeable forum posters can possibly be making the argument that you are trying to make here. This quill very obviously produces its own ink each and every time that you write with it.
If you read a bit past the very first result, you would have seen another definition.
show or provide (something) for consideration, inspection, or use.
"he produced a sheet of paper from his pocket"
The manner in which this man functions is so obvious that it's honestly mind-boggling that such knowledgeable forum posters can possibly be making the argument that we are trying to make here. This man obviously manufactures his own paper each and every time that he pulls paper from his pocket.
I've been over all this already. You claim that you've read this thread entirely, but that doesn't exactly seem true.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
At this point it is worth noting again that the gold cost of scribing a spell into a Wizard's spell book encompasses more than just the ink.
"The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it." - https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/classes#LearningSpellsof1stLevelandHigher
This is all the rules have to say on the matter. Any further breakdown as to what is actually being bought with the gold is a ruling a DM is free to make, but that is as specific as the rules get.
As Haravikk pointed out the play test version of the Order of Scribes subclass used to change both the time and gold required to copy spells into your spellbook. Here is how that feature used to look:
"The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook are halved if you use the quill for the transcription." - (Google it)
However, the final version that was published in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now only mentions changing the time taken:
"The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription." - https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tcoe/wizard#WizardlyQuill
It makes no mention of changing the gold required or the materials needed to transcribe a spell.
As a side note the Wizardly Quill feature makes no mention as to what the gold value for the ink the quill produces is. Unlike most conjured objects it doesn't vanish or have a limit to the value it can produce. At a table where a GM rules that the ink the Wizardly Quill produces has a gold value I can see a creative player engineering a contraption to turn the quill into an ink factory.
I am fairly sure ''produce'' is used as synonymous to make or create and means it's not requiring additional ink. While the Wizardly Quill doesn't specifically say it produce fine ink, i would assume it's of sufficient quality to copy spells with it since the it can cut time if you use the quill for the transcription.
Yes of course you've been over all this already. So what? That doesn't make your arguments any more convincing than the first time that you've said them.
You've now claimed twice that I haven't read through this thread even though I've told you that I have. Don't do it again.
This isn't entirely true. From the "Your Spellbook" sidebar in the Wizard class description, we have this information:
Yes, it's true, the text doesn't do the math for us. Mostly, if that were included it would mostly just bloat the text with redundant and unnecessary additional information. For the purposes of our discussion here it would be nice if they had summarized the costs above in one concise sentence that we could all cut-and-paste and agree upon, but sometimes it takes a little digging to consolidate the information that's provided.
If you want to give the impression that you have already read and understood opposing arguments, you should acknowledge them instead of ignoring them. When you made your point using the definition of produce, you failed to acknowledge that I already addressed that point. You've failed to acknowledge it again, even though I just made the same point that I made earlier in the thread.
I agree. The quill doesn't require any additional ink.
Like you said, that's an assumption. Nothing in the quill says that it produces fine ink. You might have a point if the quill magically producing fine ink were the only way to scribe spells with it, but nothing says that the quill can't produce its ink from a reservoir, so it could just be filled with fine ink. Whether or not the quill's magically produced ink is "fine," the quill can be used to scribe spells, which means your assumption is pretty baseless.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It doesn't require ink just like Undead Nature doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep which to me all means it runs without.
It kind of does though. The quill will always produce ink of any color. In addition to this I suppose you could try to put your own ink into it but you would end up writing with 2 inks at once which probably will not yield very good results regardless of how fine each ink is individually.
Yeah, I agree. It doesn't require ink. It can use physical ink, though, because it would still be producing ink onto a writing surface, which is all that the feature says it does.
It's not a perfect analogy because the wording is different, but a monster with Undead Nature can still breathe, eat, drink, and sleep.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The quill will always produce ink of any color. I know this. My point is that the location it is producing this ink from could be a physical reservoir. That would still be following all the rules.
If it's producing ink (from a physical reservoir) onto a writing surface, it seems weird to believe that it would also produce another ink at the same time. It doesn't say that it produces two inks, it just says that it produces ink, which is what it would already be doing.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Nope. This quill produces ink of any color. The ink that you put into a physical reservoir has a fixed color.
Look, I have looked at all of the relevant text and I have determined that when I am the DM and this situation comes up, that there will be no monetary cost involved in completing this process because that's my interpretation of the rules as written, among other reasons. If for some reason you want to rule in your games that it costs just as much for this Wizard as for any other Wizard then go knock yourself out I guess -- as the DM you can rule it however you want.
Correction: the quill produces ink in any color. It doesn't say anything about the ink, just how it's produced. There's no reason that that statement should restrict what inks can be produced (in a color of your choice) by the feature. Besides, even if you were right, you could choose the ink that's produced to be the color that the ink is.
Example: If there were a magical tube, and you could put golf balls through it, and the tube said that it "produces the golf balls in a color of your choice on the other side of the tube," then it wouldn't mean you couldn't put any golf balls through the tube, it would mean that you could put any golf balls through the tube that you want and they'd come out in a color of your choice.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)