Page 186 under long rest (second column under main heading of resting sub heading of long test.) it says "a long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"
Whch version do you have my PHB does not mention it either.
mine says version
620A9217000001 EN
ISBN: 978-0-789-6560-1
First printing aug 2014 ( this printing includes corrections to the first prnting)
Page 186 under long rest (second column under main heading of resting sub heading of long test.) it says "a long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"
Whch version do you have my PHB does not mention it either.
mine says version
620A9217000001 EN
ISBN: 978-0-789-6560-1
First printing aug 2014 ( this printing includes corrections to the first prnting)
98765
Mine says first printing aug 2014 (this printing includes corrections to the first printing)
As for the other details I will have to look when I get home. I bought my book from Amazon about a month ago.
It seems that the first printing parts are themselves an error as how does a first printing include corrections?
Regardless, I don't see the problem. Non-elves need to do 6 sleep - 2 light activity. elves can do 4 - 4. That's it.
Only a theoretical problem that may matter if the party is attacked after the elf has had his trance but before 8 hours has passed as it would determine if the elf regained spells during this time.
This isn't really a benefit for the elf as it goes mean an extra encounter for the day for him while the rest of the party has an extra encounter during the night.
Since the elf has to wait till a new day to take a long rest it wouldn't matter.
Or is the rules now where you can take as many long rests as you like?
Regardless, I don't see the problem. Non-elves need to do 6 sleep - 2 light activity. elves can do 4 - 4. That's it.
Only a theoretical problem that may matter if the party is attacked after the elf has had his trance but before 8 hours has passed as it would determine if the elf regained spells during this time.
This isn't really a benefit for the elf as it goes mean an extra encounter for the day for him while the rest of the party has an extra encounter during the night.
Since the elf has to wait till a new day to take a long rest it wouldn't matter.
Or is the rules now where you can take as many long rests as you like?
To regain the spell or other class abilities the elf has to wait 8 hours. This was clear in the sage advice. The trance allow the elf to "sleep" less no to halve the long rest.
Regardless, I don't see the problem. Non-elves need to do 6 sleep - 2 light activity. elves can do 4 - 4. That's it.
Only a theoretical problem that may matter if the party is attacked after the elf has had his trance but before 8 hours has passed as it would determine if the elf regained spells during this time.
This isn't really a benefit for the elf as it goes mean an extra encounter for the day for him while the rest of the party has an extra encounter during the night.
Since the elf has to wait till a new day to take a long rest it wouldn't matter.
Or is the rules now where you can take as many long rests as you like?
To regain the spell or other class abilities the elf has to wait 8 hours. This was clear in the sage advice. The trance allow the elf to "sleep" less no to halve the long rest.
Which I disagreed with because the Players Handbook says the Elf gains the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 4 hours of trance. The only benefit available is the benefits of taking a long rest, as a human does not gain any benefit from 8 hours of sleep and at best doesn't gain penalties for 6 hours of sleep, but that's not a benefit, its just not occurring a penatly. And that it makes no sense to alter 2/3 of a sentence and keep the first part.
This of course is dependent on which of us has the correct intended printing. So its possible that WotC intended the elf to need 8 hours, but it appears their wording doesn't really support that.
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep. Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.
In the Compendium Crawford distinguishes between two things, RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as Intended). I think it is important to note that Crawford does not argue that Trance as written doesn't allow an elf to only spend 4 hours in an extended rest. Since he goes straight to his second criteria of RAI, that would seem to indicate to me that Crawford himself would at least allow RAW as implying an elf only needs 4 hours of trance to have a long rest. Basically there is a preference to answering questions with RAW but sometimes he uses RAI instead to state what the designers had intended.
So I would say RAI may very well imply that an elf does indeed need 8 hours of rest for a long rest, however as written this doesn't seem to be the case.
With that said, largely I'd say the current wording of the PHB would influence that, and I'm not sure which version is the current one.
Page 186 under long rest (second column under main heading of resting sub heading of long test.) it says "a long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"
Whch version do you have my PHB does not mention it either.
mine says version
620A9217000001 EN
ISBN: 978-0-789-6560-1
First printing aug 2014 ( this printing includes corrections to the first prnting)
98765
The only difference I find is that my copy says (this printing includes corrections) and the number is 9876
It would appear to me that even though I bought my book a month ago that somehow through whatever means Amazon uses that I very well may have received a much earlier printing. (At least I'm assuming that I have the earlier printing. If by chance you bought your copy closer to Aug 2014 I might be wrong about that assumption)
The final numbers indicate which print run it is - if you have 987654321 you have a 1st print, whereas version 9876 means you have the 6th printing run.
@NightsLastHero - does the text on page 186 of your PHB mention that a Long Rest needs 6 hours sleep? If so, then it looks like WotC have start puttin in errata that they haven't put in the errata round up yet.
The final numbers indicate which print run it is - if you have 987654321 you have a 1st print, whereas version 9876 means you have the 6th printing run.
@NightsLastHero - does the text on page 186 of your PHB mention that a Long Rest needs 6 hours sleep? If so, then it looks like WotC have start puttin in errata that they haven't put in the errata round up yet.
Yeah, my PHB on page 186 says that Long Rest needs to be at least 8 hours, requires at least 6 hours sleep, and no more than two hours of light activity.
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep. Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.
In the Compendium Crawford distinguishes between two things, RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as Intended). I think it is important to note that Crawford does not argue that Trance as written doesn't allow an elf to only spend 4 hours in an extended rest. Since he goes straight to his second criteria of RAI, that would seem to indicate to me that Crawford himself would at least allow RAW as implying an elf only needs 4 hours of trance to have a long rest. Basically there is a preference to answering questions with RAW but sometimes he uses RAI instead to state what the designers had intended.
So I would say RAI may very well imply that an elf does indeed need 8 hours of rest for a long rest, however as written this doesn't seem to be the case.
With that said, largely I'd say the current wording of the PHB would influence that, and I'm not sure which version is the current one.
It seems to me that, RAW and RAI, the Trance feature does not replace the time needed for a long rest. IN the trace feature, they talk about the sleep, not the long rest, and by rules sleep and long rest aren't the same thing.
I disagree, the sage advice makes pretty clear that the elf only needs to trance for 4 hours, and can spend the other 4 hours on watch. I would rule that an elf is unaware of his surroundings while in a trance, and thus subject to surprise and ambush just like any other sleeping character, but they are perfectly capable of taking half the watch.
i think the idea here is that being on watch is not a particularly restful, or even light, activity. if they are doing the job correctly than they are at least vigilant to their surroundings and a bit "hyperfocused". while a few hours of this might not be too taxing, thus allowing a Long Rest to work, 4 or more hours would be fairly taxing.
a "light activity" is reading, sharpening a blade, meditation, cooking, and other simple tasks.
thus an elf could not have reverie and than watch for 4 hours and get a long rest. they were working half the rest period of 8 hours.
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep. Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.
In the Compendium Crawford distinguishes between two things, RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as Intended). I think it is important to note that Crawford does not argue that Trance as written doesn't allow an elf to only spend 4 hours in an extended rest. Since he goes straight to his second criteria of RAI, that would seem to indicate to me that Crawford himself would at least allow RAW as implying an elf only needs 4 hours of trance to have a long rest. Basically there is a preference to answering questions with RAW but sometimes he uses RAI instead to state what the designers had intended.
So I would say RAI may very well imply that an elf does indeed need 8 hours of rest for a long rest, however as written this doesn't seem to be the case.
With that said, largely I'd say the current wording of the PHB would influence that, and I'm not sure which version is the current one.
It seems to me that, RAW and RAI, the Trance feature does not replace the time needed for a long rest. IN the trace feature, they talk about the sleep, not the long rest, and by rules sleep and long rest aren't the same thing.
Normally I would agree, but there is no benefit for 8 hours of sleep. (there is a penalty for going a significant amount of time without sleep) Humanoids also don't need 8 hours of sleep during a long rest, they only need 6. So the only possible correlation and benefit that an elf could get is from a long rest. So I think the original wording to a long rest would lean toward Trance not counting, but the current wording seems to lean toward Trance replacing the sleep portion of a long rest.
Essentially, if you change nothing in the definition of long rest, a human and an elf would have to sleep/trance for 6 hours as both can only do any light activity and watch for at most 2 hours. This makes Trane pointless as it doesn't grant any benefit in less time than sleep would. And if you change the light rest period to 4 hours, then it begs the question why that part of the sentence changed and nothing else.
The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.
The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.
Wait. The sleep during a long rest is mandatory. It is stated clearly in the PHB. The SRD does mention the sleep, but not the minimum amount of time for the sleep.
So sleeping is necessary. The PHB says 6 hours minimum. For elves is 4 hours of trance and trance does not mean whatchful.
The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.
As mentioned previously my copy of the Players Handbook, which I think we established as the most recent? does in fact state that sleep is part of a long rest and lists requirements for it to being at least 6 hours.
Though I could have misunderstood and this could have been the original wording which is now changed. Though odd since I just bought my copy a month ago.
The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.
Wait. The sleep during a long rest is mandatory. It is stated clearly in the PHB. The SRD does mention the sleep, but not the minimum amount of time for the sleep.
So sleeping is necessary. The PHB says 6 hours minimum. For elves is 4 hours of trance and trance does not mean whatchful.
I see you have the same copy of the PHB as I do. We have stumbled upon a change in printings. One edition of the printings states the same thing that the SRD does, another edition (the most recent I think) actually does list requirements of sleep. Technically the Elf's Trance ability should be reflected to six hours now, and clarification that an Elf can still only engage in a watch for two hours (or 4 whatever the intent is).
The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.
Wait. The sleep during a long rest is mandatory. It is stated clearly in the PHB. The SRD does mention the sleep, but not the minimum amount of time for the sleep.
So sleeping is necessary. The PHB says 6 hours minimum. For elves is 4 hours of trance and trance does not mean whatchful.
I see you have the same copy of the PHB as I do. We have stumbled upon a change in printings. One edition of the printings states the same thing that the SRD does, another edition (the most recent I think) actually does list requirements of sleep. Technically the Elf's Trance ability should be reflected to six hours now, and clarification that an Elf can still only engage in a watch for two hours (or 4 whatever the intent is).
Indeed. Ok we can debate on the watch time, but the sleep is mandatory during a long rest.
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So if the errata doesnt mention adding it... and then we have different printings happening, this seems weird. Would need to have WotC confirm.
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
Well actually sleep not necessary for long rest part of long rest can be sleep but not per se.
Regardless, I don't see the problem. Non-elves need to do 6 sleep - 2 light activity. elves can do 4 - 4. That's it.
In the Compendium Crawford distinguishes between two things, RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as Intended). I think it is important to note that Crawford does not argue that Trance as written doesn't allow an elf to only spend 4 hours in an extended rest. Since he goes straight to his second criteria of RAI, that would seem to indicate to me that Crawford himself would at least allow RAW as implying an elf only needs 4 hours of trance to have a long rest. Basically there is a preference to answering questions with RAW but sometimes he uses RAI instead to state what the designers had intended.
So I would say RAI may very well imply that an elf does indeed need 8 hours of rest for a long rest, however as written this doesn't seem to be the case.
With that said, largely I'd say the current wording of the PHB would influence that, and I'm not sure which version is the current one.
The final numbers indicate which print run it is - if you have 987654321 you have a 1st print, whereas version 9876 means you have the 6th printing run.
@NightsLastHero - does the text on page 186 of your PHB mention that a Long Rest needs 6 hours sleep? If so, then it looks like WotC have start puttin in errata that they haven't put in the errata round up yet.
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If you have questions/concerns, please Private Message me or another moderator.
Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
The current printing (and SRD) have no mention of requiring sleep during a long rest. All creatures can benefit from a long rest, and it takes 8 hours. Even though many creatures have no need for or even can't sleep. Long rest does not require sleep and if you have a printing that mentions otherwise it is outdated and irrelevant to the conversation.
This is especially important when you consider that players can only benefit from one long rest per day. If they are travelling and do not encounter any issues in a given day, there is no reason for them to long rest that night (travelling is limited to 8 hours a day to avoid forced marching, not 8 hours per long rest), so if they do encounter danger, they could rest immediately after and still be wide awake.
However, even while wide awake, they can only do 2 hours of keeping watch. Which means you would probably give them disadvantage on their passive perception if an enemy group were to try to sneak up on them. But should the watchman call out a warning, they are instantly ready.
The same is true for elves. Even in trance they are somewhat aware of their environment, which means if a warning was called out they would respond immediately. The advantage of still being conscious means you have another set of eyes that might catch the infiltration (even if at a diminished capacity) and they can respond immediately to a threat. A sleeping character starts the combat not only surprised, but also prone and unconscious.