So it's confusing, as the rules contradict themselves here if we use any amount of common sense or language.
I disagree. The confusion lies in people not understanding the difference between what they think is darkness and what darkness actually is. If you can get inside the eye of a hurricane at night, you can realize what darkness is actually not. How much any sort of light assists in vison. The complete lack of anything to obscure vision is completely gone, starlight completely lights up the area but the shadows from objects (down trees etc.) is truly blackness. Sunlight is so strong as to minimize what is in shadow, but starlight is not bright enough to penetrate shadows. One can then understand the use of a campfire is just a horrible example.
By rule, darkness does not work like that in D&D 5e. The rules intentionally greatly simplify lighting conditions. In real life there are infinite possible intensity levels of illumination ranging from just a few photons within an extremely dark space all the way up to light that is so intense that it is blinding and damaging. There is often a gradual gradient of transition "between" these different areas.
In 5e, there are exactly 3 levels of illumination -- bright light, dim light, and darkness. Crucially, these are all categories of illumination, each of which contain many various levels of real life levels of illumination. Darkness is a category. It is not only the total absence of light. It's never defined as such. Instead, it is a category of lighting which causes creatures with normal vision to be handicapped in a certain way. They cannot see well enough so they are mechanically blinded, suffering disadvantage when making attacks and so on.
So you all are saying that you can draw a line of sight through darkness (magical) but not into or out of it?
There is line of sight into, out of, and through Darkness, including the Darkness that is created by the darkness spell. Darkness is not a phenomenon that affects Line of Sight. Instead, it is governed by a different rule -- that of Obscured Areas. Areas filled with Darkness are Heavily Obscured -- You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
The differences between mundane Darkness and the magical Darkness that is created by the darkness spell are:
-- Normally a creature with Darkvision can see the things that are in Darkness within a specified range as if they were in Dim Light. This magical Darkness prevents that.
-- Normally a nonmagical light source will illuminate an area of a certain radius within Darkness. This magical Darkness prevents that. By extension, weak spells which affect areas by creating a source of magical light there are dispelled by this magical Darkness.
In all other ways, the area created by the darkness spell behaves like mundane Darkness.
"To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn’t pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight."
Now, we aren't going to get into a debate about a stone wall or a thick curtain. But "a dense cloud of fog" is an example of something that blocks line of sight. So let's look at the Fog Cloud spell:
"You create a 20-foot-radius Sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The Sphere is Heavily Obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a strong wind (such as one created by Gust of Wind) disperses it."
The only game effect of Fog Cloud is to create a Heavily Obscured area - which is the same as both magical and non-magical Darkness (to non-Darkvision).
There doesn't seem to be any rules text that justifies treating magical and non-magical Darkness differently in terms of line-of-sight. However, the rules text for Darkness and Fog Cloud don't seem to justify treating the Fog Cloud and Darkness spells differently either.
"To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn’t pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight."
Now, we aren't going to get into a debate about a stone wall or a thick curtain. But "a dense cloud of fog" is an example of something that blocks line of sight. So let's look at the Fog Cloud spell:
"You create a 20-foot-radius Sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The Sphere is Heavily Obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a strong wind (such as one created by Gust of Wind) disperses it."
The only game effect of Fog Cloud is to create a Heavily Obscured area - which is the same as both magical and non-magical Darkness (to non-Darkvision).
There doesn't seem to be any rules text that justifies treating magical and non-magical Darkness differently in terms of line-of-sight. However, the rules text for Darkness and Fog Cloud don't seem to justify treating the Fog Cloud and Darkness spells differently either.
I don't think that necessary follows. Yes, Darkness and Fog Cloud both create Heavily Obscured Areas, but it is the fog created by Fog Cloud that blocks Line of Sight.
It is not clear if Darkness does. Heavily Obscured just says "You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space. See also “Blinded,” “Darkness,” and “Playing the Game” (“Exploration”)."
Ignoring some of the weird dynamics that causes, you only have the Blinded condition when trying to see something in the area. You don't have the condition when trying to see something outside, including on the other side of the area.
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
Obscured Areas: A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque.
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
Obscured Areas: A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque.
I don't think the opaqueness is referencing whether it blocks line of sight but rather whether it completely obscures anything within the area. The full quote provides the context.
Obscured Areas
An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured. In a Lightly Obscured area—such as an area with Dim Light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage—you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the Rules Glossary) when trying to see something there.
If as DM i determine an Heavily Obscured area of heavy fog is opaque and block vision, there won't be any line of sight you can trace that pass through it.
Line of Sight: To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
Obscured Areas: A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque.
I don't think the opaqueness is referencing whether it blocks line of sight but rather whether it completely obscures anything within the area. The full quote provides the context.
Obscured Areas
An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured. In a Lightly Obscured area—such as an area with Dim Light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage—you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the Rules Glossary) when trying to see something there.
So is this how you GM it in your games? Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?
That is interesting because if the attacker and defender are both in darkness the attacks are straight rolls.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
Obscured Areas: A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque.
I don't think the opaqueness is referencing whether it blocks line of sight but rather whether it completely obscures anything within the area. The full quote provides the context.
Obscured Areas
An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured. In a Lightly Obscured area—such as an area with Dim Light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage—you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the Rules Glossary) when trying to see something there.
So is this how you GM it in your games? Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?
That is interesting because if the attacker and defender are both in darkness the attacks are straight rolls.
From what they've said, it would be if you are targeting something in darkness you would have the blinded condition to it. This would be true if you were in the darkness or outside of it. As long as the target is in the darkness, you have the blinded condition in reference to targeting it. If both you and the target are in darkness, then you both have the blinded condition when trying to target the other. Because you are "unseen", you have advantage on the attack, and because you are "blinded", you have disadvantage, so you do a straight roll when you are both in darkness (as long as neither has darkvision [when speaking of mundane darkness]).
It goes without saying that Unseen Attackers & Targets see both their Advantage and Disadvantage on the same roll cancel each other.
Sure, I was mostly responding to this statement: "Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?"
Which wasn't what was being said anyway (no one ever said both target and attacker had to be in darkness for the blinded condition to apply), so I just was explaining what WOULD happen if both attacker and target were in darkness.
Also, can something "go without saying" if there is a specific rule discussing it? If it went without saying, I feel like it wouldn't be mentioned in the rules. The written rules are explicitly "saying".
Also, can something "go without saying" if there is a specific rule discussing it? If it went without saying, I feel like it wouldn't be mentioned in the rules. The written rules are explicitly "saying".
What i meant by that is that Unseen Attackers & Targets say;
"When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll" and "When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it."
Without saying having "Advantage and Disadvantage on the same roll cancel each other."
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
Obscured Areas: A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque.
I don't think the opaqueness is referencing whether it blocks line of sight but rather whether it completely obscures anything within the area. The full quote provides the context.
Obscured Areas
An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured. In a Lightly Obscured area—such as an area with Dim Light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage—you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the Rules Glossary) when trying to see something there.
So is this how you GM it in your games? Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?
That is interesting because if the attacker and defender are both in darkness the attacks are straight rolls.
Some people are ruling it that way (the last thread is from pre-2024 books):
How to apply the mentioned rules (Unseen Attackers, Blinded condition) in some situations, such as inside a Giant Toad, was also discussed here: Giant Toad, Bite & Swallow attack (you were there, Wysperra, and I mean the thread, not the Toad’s stomach! :))
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
Obscured Areas: A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque.
I don't think the opaqueness is referencing whether it blocks line of sight but rather whether it completely obscures anything within the area. The full quote provides the context.
Obscured Areas
An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured. In a Lightly Obscured area—such as an area with Dim Light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage—you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the Rules Glossary) when trying to see something there.
So is this how you GM it in your games? Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?
That is interesting because if the attacker and defender are both in darkness the attacks are straight rolls.
There is another post with the weird interactions of the Blinded condition in these situations, so I just have to go with what makes sense on a case-by-case basis. Edit: TarodNet's ears must have been burning! They provided the links.
In this case, if you are not in Darkness and you are trying to perceive something also not in Darkness but there is an area of Darkness between you and the thing, I don't think Line of Sight is intended to be blocked.
If you are in a pitch-black dungeon carrying a torch, you can see someone else carrying a torch 100 feet away, right? General Darkness will create a Heavily Obscured area. Darkness says that Darkness fills the sphere (or radiates form the emanation) and Darkvision can't see through it so it may be intended to block Line of Sight. Either way, I don't think it's the Heavily Obscured rule of Darkness that does it. Does that make sense?
Darkness Spell: For the duration, magical Darkness spreads from a point within range and fills a 15-foot-radius Sphere. Darkvision can't see through it, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it.
The part I am interested in: Alternatively, you cast the spell on an object that isn't being worn or carried, causing the Darkness to fill a 15-foot Emanation originating from that object. Covering that object with something opaque, such as a bowl or helm, blocks the Darkness.
So I cast Darkness on a small object that is not being worn. I then pick up and give the object to my Imp Familiar. With instructions to hover near enemy spell caster, and have it ready its move action, so as soon as the spell caster moves, the imp moves with the caster, keeping them in the dark and unable to see targets.
DM dependent. As our table we can’t cast o a rock and kick it to move it. That’s for all spells like this. I would mot allow for the familiar to move the item that darkness was casted on.
Darkness Spell: For the duration, magical Darkness spreads from a point within range and fills a 15-foot-radius Sphere. Darkvision can't see through it, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it.
The part I am interested in: Alternatively, you cast the spell on an object that isn't being worn or carried, causing the Darkness to fill a 15-foot Emanation originating from that object. Covering that object with something opaque, such as a bowl or helm, blocks the Darkness.
So I cast Darkness on a small object that is not being worn. I then pick up and give the object to my Imp Familiar. With instructions to hover near enemy spell caster, and have it ready its move action, so as soon as the spell caster moves, the imp moves with the caster, keeping them in the dark and unable to see targets.
DM dependent. As our table we can’t cast o a rock and kick it to move it. That’s for all spells like this. I would mot allow for the familiar to move the item that darkness was casted on.
Why?
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pronouns: he/she/they
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By rule, darkness does not work like that in D&D 5e. The rules intentionally greatly simplify lighting conditions. In real life there are infinite possible intensity levels of illumination ranging from just a few photons within an extremely dark space all the way up to light that is so intense that it is blinding and damaging. There is often a gradual gradient of transition "between" these different areas.
In 5e, there are exactly 3 levels of illumination -- bright light, dim light, and darkness. Crucially, these are all categories of illumination, each of which contain many various levels of real life levels of illumination. Darkness is a category. It is not only the total absence of light. It's never defined as such. Instead, it is a category of lighting which causes creatures with normal vision to be handicapped in a certain way. They cannot see well enough so they are mechanically blinded, suffering disadvantage when making attacks and so on.
So you all are saying that you can draw a line of sight through darkness (magical) but not into or out of it?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
There is line of sight into, out of, and through Darkness, including the Darkness that is created by the darkness spell. Darkness is not a phenomenon that affects Line of Sight. Instead, it is governed by a different rule -- that of Obscured Areas. Areas filled with Darkness are Heavily Obscured -- You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
The differences between mundane Darkness and the magical Darkness that is created by the darkness spell are:
-- Normally a creature with Darkvision can see the things that are in Darkness within a specified range as if they were in Dim Light. This magical Darkness prevents that.
-- Normally a nonmagical light source will illuminate an area of a certain radius within Darkness. This magical Darkness prevents that. By extension, weak spells which affect areas by creating a source of magical light there are dispelled by this magical Darkness.
In all other ways, the area created by the darkness spell behaves like mundane Darkness.
So you ARE saying that shooting something from one side (outside) of magical darkness to the other side (outside) of magical darkness has no penalty.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
From the DMG on Line of Sight:
"To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn’t pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight."
Now, we aren't going to get into a debate about a stone wall or a thick curtain. But "a dense cloud of fog" is an example of something that blocks line of sight. So let's look at the Fog Cloud spell:
"You create a 20-foot-radius Sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The Sphere is Heavily Obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a strong wind (such as one created by Gust of Wind) disperses it."
The only game effect of Fog Cloud is to create a Heavily Obscured area - which is the same as both magical and non-magical Darkness (to non-Darkvision).
There doesn't seem to be any rules text that justifies treating magical and non-magical Darkness differently in terms of line-of-sight. However, the rules text for Darkness and Fog Cloud don't seem to justify treating the Fog Cloud and Darkness spells differently either.
I don't think that necessary follows. Yes, Darkness and Fog Cloud both create Heavily Obscured Areas, but it is the fog created by Fog Cloud that blocks Line of Sight.
It is not clear if Darkness does. Heavily Obscured just says "You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space. See also “Blinded,” “Darkness,” and “Playing the Game” (“Exploration”)."
Ignoring some of the weird dynamics that causes, you only have the Blinded condition when trying to see something in the area. You don't have the condition when trying to see something outside, including on the other side of the area.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
When you determine line of sight between two spaces, if you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight. This is not necessarily the Fog Cloud spell but any source of fog heavy enought, as described in Vision and Light rules:
I don't think the opaqueness is referencing whether it blocks line of sight but rather whether it completely obscures anything within the area. The full quote provides the context.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
If as DM i determine an Heavily Obscured area of heavy fog is opaque and block vision, there won't be any line of sight you can trace that pass through it.
So is this how you GM it in your games? Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?
That is interesting because if the attacker and defender are both in darkness the attacks are straight rolls.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
From what they've said, it would be if you are targeting something in darkness you would have the blinded condition to it. This would be true if you were in the darkness or outside of it. As long as the target is in the darkness, you have the blinded condition in reference to targeting it. If both you and the target are in darkness, then you both have the blinded condition when trying to target the other. Because you are "unseen", you have advantage on the attack, and because you are "blinded", you have disadvantage, so you do a straight roll when you are both in darkness (as long as neither has darkvision [when speaking of mundane darkness]).
It goes without saying that Unseen Attackers & Targets see both their Advantage and Disadvantage on the same roll cancel each other.
Sure, I was mostly responding to this statement: "Only if you are in darkness and are targeting something in darkness does the blinded condition apply?"
Which wasn't what was being said anyway (no one ever said both target and attacker had to be in darkness for the blinded condition to apply), so I just was explaining what WOULD happen if both attacker and target were in darkness.
Also, can something "go without saying" if there is a specific rule discussing it? If it went without saying, I feel like it wouldn't be mentioned in the rules. The written rules are explicitly "saying".
*shrug*
What i meant by that is that Unseen Attackers & Targets say;
"When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll" and "When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it."
Without saying having "Advantage and Disadvantage on the same roll cancel each other."
Some people are ruling it that way (the last thread is from pre-2024 books):
How to apply the mentioned rules (Unseen Attackers, Blinded condition) in some situations, such as inside a Giant Toad, was also discussed here: Giant Toad, Bite & Swallow attack (you were there, Wysperra, and I mean the thread, not the Toad’s stomach! :))
There is another post with the weird interactions of the Blinded condition in these situations, so I just have to go with what makes sense on a case-by-case basis. Edit: TarodNet's ears must have been burning! They provided the links.
In this case, if you are not in Darkness and you are trying to perceive something also not in Darkness but there is an area of Darkness between you and the thing, I don't think Line of Sight is intended to be blocked.
If you are in a pitch-black dungeon carrying a torch, you can see someone else carrying a torch 100 feet away, right? General Darkness will create a Heavily Obscured area. Darkness says that Darkness fills the sphere (or radiates form the emanation) and Darkvision can't see through it so it may be intended to block Line of Sight. Either way, I don't think it's the Heavily Obscured rule of Darkness that does it. Does that make sense?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Just so I'm clear on what you're saying:
The circle is an area of magical darkness.
A can see and target B no problem.
A can see and target D no problem unless A has Darkvision in which case they cannot because Darkvision cannot penetrate magical darkness.
A cannot see or target C
C can target A no problem unless C has Darkvision.
C cannot see E but Advantage and Disadvantage cancel each other out so straight rolls.
Did I miss anything?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
DM dependent. As our table we can’t cast o a rock and kick it to move it. That’s for all spells like this. I would mot allow for the familiar to move the item that darkness was casted on.
Why?
pronouns: he/she/they