You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
It could be interpreted as "see something that is in a Heavily Obscured space", or as "see something while being in a Heavily Obscured space", or both.
It's the first one -- "see something that is in a Heavily Obscured space".
This term is only ever used in the general rules to describe an area or to describe objects within one of those areas. The concept is that the area itself covers things up so that you cannot see those things when attempting to do so. For example, if you were attempting to see an object that was surrounded by an area of very thick fog, you would be unable to do so.
Besides the Glossary entry, the term is defined in the general rules in a section of text called "Obscured Areas" (meaning, again, that it is the area itself that is obscured). Within that section, there is a definition for a "Lightly Obscured area" and a "Heavily Obscured area" -- these both describe and define a particular area. The introduction to this section begins with: "An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured."
The only other place in the general rules where the term is used is within the Hide action to describe the state of a creature as being "heavily obscured" as a prerequisite for attempting to Hide. This means that the creature is currently located in a Heavily Obscured space and thus, by definition, cannot be seen by other creatures. For example, perhaps you walk into an area of very thick fog so that your enemy cannot see you and then you might choose to attempt to Hide there.
The reason why I would agree with Tarod is sheer logic.
With your wording, if I'm surrounded by a heavily obscured fog, but I try to see an object outside of it, then I can see it clearly, despite being surrounded by the fog.
While the description would allow you to interpret it this way, it's completely nonsensical...
In my opinion, a heavily obscured area should be treated as an obstacle blocking your vision, no matter if it includes only you, or only the object you're trying to see, or both...
[...] With your wording, if I'm surrounded by a heavily obscured fog, but I try to see an object outside of it, then I can see it clearly, despite being surrounded by the fog. [...] In my opinion, a heavily obscured area should be treated as an obstacle blocking your vision, no matter if it includes only you, or only the object you're trying to see, or both...
Yeah, that's how I see it, too.
The linked threads also have opinions about the difference between mundane and magical Darkness. When dealing with non-magical darkness in a particular scenario, I apply common sense. Let me add this reply here
The problem is not so much that both mundane and magical Darkness is Heavily obscured but that the different category of illumination from the presence or absence of light obscure vision the same way any other sources do.
That's an interesting read. I completely disagree with this part of the post though:
So being in a fog cloud or total darkness reads as though it has 0 impact on combat.
That's not true at all. What I find weird about this "the advantages cancel out" is that people seem to read it as "it's as if they were fighting clearly", but no. Even if the advantages cancel out, they still both have the blinded condition and can't see their targets, which means they have to guess their location. And the rules state:
So you can try a stealth check to move around without being heard, forcing your target to miscalculate your location. Hell, if you have magical fly, you might not even need that check. So there's a big difference between 2 creatures fighting in the clear and 2 creatures fighting in magical darkness or a fog cloud. Another big difference is opportunity attacks:
Opportunity Attacks
You can make an Opportunity Attack when a creature that you can see leaves your reach using its action, its Bonus Action, its Reaction, or one of its speeds.
Opportunity Attacks for sure, and I'd add also any spell or feature that says "that you can see" would be affected, so definitely, fighting in a Heavily Obscured space is relevant.
For me it's both, Obscured Areas are part of Vision and Light rules relating to elements that are affected by sight, so effects that obscure vision can hinder you, wether in it or when trying to see something there;
Obscured Areas
An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured. In a Lightly Obscured area—such as an area with Dim Light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage—you have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the rules glossary) when trying to see something there
One thing I noticed about the wording for heavily obscured over in the hiding thread was that the description for heavily obscured refers to a location being heavily obscured, rather than a creature being heavily obscured in a location that is otherwise not. Should we take this to mean that only locations should be considered heavily obscured, as opposed to a creature who is unseen for whatever reason?
Quite frankly, I've never seen anywhere in the rules the term "Heavily Obscured" used to describe anything else than an area. The term to describe a creature that cannot be seen is "invisible". Even when you hide, if you succeed your stealth check, you're considered "invisible".
Quite frankly, I've never seen anywhere in the rules the term "Heavily Obscured" used to describe anything else than an area. The term to describe a creature that cannot be seen is "invisible". Even when you hide, if you succeed your stealth check, you're considered "invisible".
As I mentioned previously, the context of a creature being heavily obscured appears in exactly one place in the general rules -- in the description for the Hide action:
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight;
Again, in this context this means that the creature (you) is currently located in a Heavily Obscured space and thus, by definition, cannot be seen by other creatures. It is used as a prerequisite for attempting to Hide, which makes sense since the first thing that you would need to do in order to even attempt to Hide is to move to a location where you cannot be seen by other creatures.
The reason why I would agree with Tarod is sheer logic.
With your wording, if I'm surrounded by a heavily obscured fog, but I try to see an object outside of it, then I can see it clearly, despite being surrounded by the fog.
While the description would allow you to interpret it this way, it's completely nonsensical...
In my opinion, a heavily obscured area should be treated as an obstacle blocking your vision, no matter if it includes only you, or only the object you're trying to see, or both...
Yes, this is a common misconception. What you are describing has nothing to do with the rules for Heavily Obscured areas. The blocking of your vision by a physical obstacle is handled by a different rule -- the rule for Line of Sight. As far as I know, in 2014 the rules which handled Line of Sight were only found in the DMG. I'm less familiar with the 2024 version of the DMG but as far as I know those rules are mostly still intact there.
So, if you are located within an area of thick fog, the rules for Heavily Obscured areas dictate that some other creature would have the Blinded condition when trying to see you. Meanwhile, if you are trying to see something that is outside of the fog, then the actual fog blocks your Line of Sight.
This distinction and attention to which rule we are applying is important because of Darkness. If you are located within Darkness, you are in a Heavily Obscured area and therefore other creatures cannot see you. However, if you are looking outwards into a brightly lit area, you can see into that area just fine because there is nothing physically obstructing your Line of Sight. Lurking in Darkness while your enemy walks by along a brightly lit path is a buff to you and is generally good strategy.
Don't try to read more into the rules for Obscured areas than what is actually written there. It's not a Heavily Obscuring area -- the area doesn't actually DO anything to you if you are in it. It's a Heavily Obscured area. It is the area that is obscured from view. Just picture in real life when you are squinting and trying to peer deep into a very dark and shadowy corner or into the back of a cluttered closet. That area is obscured from your view. That's the concept. In fact, you might indeed have proper Line of Sight into that shadowy corner since there is nothing physically in your way -- and yet, you still cannot see into it. Attempting to see into it causes you to have the Blinded condition while you are doing so. The area is obscured from you.
My ruling is that obscured areas actually obscure vision in them and reduce visibility and line of sight, even blocking vision except for presence or absence of light which i handle differently and this work fine for my games. As the Dungeon Master Guide explains;
Visibility Outdoors: When traveling outdoors, most characters can see about 2 miles in any direction on a clear day, except where obstructions block their view. That range increases to 40 miles if they are atop a mountain or a tall hill or are otherwise able to look down on the area from a height. Lightly Obscured conditions reduce visibility: rain reduces maximum visibility to 1 mile, and fog reduces it to between 100 and 300 feet.
Line of Sight: To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.
You have to remember that not everything needs a rule, you need to use your mind as well
If I am heavily obscured from your vision, you are, mechanically, Blinded for the purposes of attacking me. whether I am similarly blinded depends on the nature of the obscuration: if we are in a darkened room, you hold up a torch, and i am outside the light source range? You cannot see me, but i can see you if I am in a ball of fog or smoke, then you cant see me, but i cant see you
How can you tell the difference between these two scenarios? by using your experience that tells you "I cannot see thru fog, whether i am outside or inside the cloud, and therefore a character could not either"
rules exist to create a framework for the game to function, so you don't have people go "well i used fireball and a 40' explosion would be obviously lethal so he should be dead"
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The wording of Heavily Obscured is unclear:
It could be interpreted as "see something that is in a Heavily Obscured space", or as "see something while being in a Heavily Obscured space", or both.
Which one is it?
As I understand it, it's both.
But, you know, some people disagree. For example, this is a recent thread using the 2024 rules: Trying to look at something gives advantage to attackers?
The following threads are also useful for reading others' opinions or getting a sense of the consensus:
It's the first one -- "see something that is in a Heavily Obscured space".
This term is only ever used in the general rules to describe an area or to describe objects within one of those areas. The concept is that the area itself covers things up so that you cannot see those things when attempting to do so. For example, if you were attempting to see an object that was surrounded by an area of very thick fog, you would be unable to do so.
Besides the Glossary entry, the term is defined in the general rules in a section of text called "Obscured Areas" (meaning, again, that it is the area itself that is obscured). Within that section, there is a definition for a "Lightly Obscured area" and a "Heavily Obscured area" -- these both describe and define a particular area. The introduction to this section begins with: "An area might be Lightly or Heavily Obscured."
The only other place in the general rules where the term is used is within the Hide action to describe the state of a creature as being "heavily obscured" as a prerequisite for attempting to Hide. This means that the creature is currently located in a Heavily Obscured space and thus, by definition, cannot be seen by other creatures. For example, perhaps you walk into an area of very thick fog so that your enemy cannot see you and then you might choose to attempt to Hide there.
The reason why I would agree with Tarod is sheer logic.
With your wording, if I'm surrounded by a heavily obscured fog, but I try to see an object outside of it, then I can see it clearly, despite being surrounded by the fog.
While the description would allow you to interpret it this way, it's completely nonsensical...
In my opinion, a heavily obscured area should be treated as an obstacle blocking your vision, no matter if it includes only you, or only the object you're trying to see, or both...
Yeah, that's how I see it, too.
The linked threads also have opinions about the difference between mundane and magical Darkness. When dealing with non-magical darkness in a particular scenario, I apply common sense. Let me add this reply here
Just one last thought from me: the rules on this topic are pretty much the same between the 2014 and 2024 versions, even with the updated wording.
So even using the 2024 rules, this 2014-thread is still interesting, Natrel: If a Creature is Heavily Obscured, Do Advantage and Disadvantage on Attacks Cancel Out?
That's an interesting read. I completely disagree with this part of the post though:
That's not true at all. What I find weird about this "the advantages cancel out" is that people seem to read it as "it's as if they were fighting clearly", but no.
Even if the advantages cancel out, they still both have the blinded condition and can't see their targets, which means they have to guess their location.
And the rules state:
So you can try a stealth check to move around without being heard, forcing your target to miscalculate your location. Hell, if you have magical fly, you might not even need that check.
So there's a big difference between 2 creatures fighting in the clear and 2 creatures fighting in magical darkness or a fog cloud.
Another big difference is opportunity attacks:
No sight, no opportunity attacks.
Opportunity Attacks for sure, and I'd add also any spell or feature that says "that you can see" would be affected, so definitely, fighting in a Heavily Obscured space is relevant.
For me it's both, Obscured Areas are part of Vision and Light rules relating to elements that are affected by sight, so effects that obscure vision can hinder you, wether in it or when trying to see something there;
One thing I noticed about the wording for heavily obscured over in the hiding thread was that the description for heavily obscured refers to a location being heavily obscured, rather than a creature being heavily obscured in a location that is otherwise not. Should we take this to mean that only locations should be considered heavily obscured, as opposed to a creature who is unseen for whatever reason?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Quite frankly, I've never seen anywhere in the rules the term "Heavily Obscured" used to describe anything else than an area. The term to describe a creature that cannot be seen is "invisible". Even when you hide, if you succeed your stealth check, you're considered "invisible".
As I mentioned previously, the context of a creature being heavily obscured appears in exactly one place in the general rules -- in the description for the Hide action:
Again, in this context this means that the creature (you) is currently located in a Heavily Obscured space and thus, by definition, cannot be seen by other creatures. It is used as a prerequisite for attempting to Hide, which makes sense since the first thing that you would need to do in order to even attempt to Hide is to move to a location where you cannot be seen by other creatures.
Yes, this is a common misconception. What you are describing has nothing to do with the rules for Heavily Obscured areas. The blocking of your vision by a physical obstacle is handled by a different rule -- the rule for Line of Sight. As far as I know, in 2014 the rules which handled Line of Sight were only found in the DMG. I'm less familiar with the 2024 version of the DMG but as far as I know those rules are mostly still intact there.
So, if you are located within an area of thick fog, the rules for Heavily Obscured areas dictate that some other creature would have the Blinded condition when trying to see you. Meanwhile, if you are trying to see something that is outside of the fog, then the actual fog blocks your Line of Sight.
This distinction and attention to which rule we are applying is important because of Darkness. If you are located within Darkness, you are in a Heavily Obscured area and therefore other creatures cannot see you. However, if you are looking outwards into a brightly lit area, you can see into that area just fine because there is nothing physically obstructing your Line of Sight. Lurking in Darkness while your enemy walks by along a brightly lit path is a buff to you and is generally good strategy.
Don't try to read more into the rules for Obscured areas than what is actually written there. It's not a Heavily Obscuring area -- the area doesn't actually DO anything to you if you are in it. It's a Heavily Obscured area. It is the area that is obscured from view. Just picture in real life when you are squinting and trying to peer deep into a very dark and shadowy corner or into the back of a cluttered closet. That area is obscured from your view. That's the concept. In fact, you might indeed have proper Line of Sight into that shadowy corner since there is nothing physically in your way -- and yet, you still cannot see into it. Attempting to see into it causes you to have the Blinded condition while you are doing so. The area is obscured from you.
My ruling is that obscured areas actually obscure vision in them and reduce visibility and line of sight, even blocking vision except for presence or absence of light which i handle differently and this work fine for my games. As the Dungeon Master Guide explains;
You have to remember that not everything needs a rule, you need to use your mind as well
If I am heavily obscured from your vision, you are, mechanically, Blinded for the purposes of attacking me.
whether I am similarly blinded depends on the nature of the obscuration: if we are in a darkened room, you hold up a torch, and i am outside the light source range? You cannot see me, but i can see you
if I am in a ball of fog or smoke, then you cant see me, but i cant see you
How can you tell the difference between these two scenarios? by using your experience that tells you "I cannot see thru fog, whether i am outside or inside the cloud, and therefore a character could not either"
rules exist to create a framework for the game to function, so you don't have people go "well i used fireball and a 40' explosion would be obviously lethal so he should be dead"