If a tiefling rogue with blind sense casts darkness and fights within it, assuming the enemy has no similar advantage, how does blind sense give an advantage to the rogue?
Does the rogue, knowing where the enemy is within 10 feet get advantage, or cancel disadvantage, or does some other mechanic come into play?
Being in total darkness (due to the spell for example) means you get the "Blind" condition. Said condition means that you have disadvantage on your attacks, while all enemies get advantage on their attacks against you. Therefore the rogue would get advantage which in turn would also allow him to deal sneak attack damage.
If a tiefling rogue with blind sense casts darkness and fights within it, assuming the enemy has no similar advantage, how does blind sense give an advantage to the rogue?
Does the rogue, knowing where the enemy is within 10 feet get advantage, or cancel disadvantage, or does some other mechanic come into play?
Darkness makes the area dark. And therefore you have the blinded condition. I believe the way blindsight works you are basically treated as having sight within that range and would not be blinded. (As the condition for blinded requires you to be looking in the darkness but there is no darkness for you within the range of your blindsight) Basically the blindness condition doesn't affect you.
It would still makes your Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Advantage, and your attack rolls have Disadvantage and if the enemy can't see in it it would also which would makes both of you rolling with neither of them, rolling one d20.
If a tiefling rogue with blind sense casts darkness and fights within it, assuming the enemy has no similar advantage, how does blind sense give an advantage to the rogue?
Does the rogue, knowing where the enemy is within 10 feet get advantage, or cancel disadvantage, or does some other mechanic come into play?
Darkness makes the area dark. And therefore you have the blinded condition. I believe the way blindsight works you are basically treated as having sight within that range and would not be blinded. (As the condition for blinded requires you to be looking in the darkness but there is no darkness for you within the range of your blindsight) Basically the blindness condition doesn't affect you.
If I'm not mistaken, the original post is referring to the Rogue's Blindsense, not the form of vision (Blindsight)
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.
Your Blindsense in an area of Darkness doesn't remove the disadvantage on your attacks.
If a tiefling rogue with blind sense casts darkness and fights within it, assuming the enemy has no similar advantage, how does blind sense give an advantage to the rogue?
Does the rogue, knowing where the enemy is within 10 feet get advantage, or cancel disadvantage, or does some other mechanic come into play?
Darkness makes the area dark. And therefore you have the blinded condition. I believe the way blindsight works you are basically treated as having sight within that range and would not be blinded. (As the condition for blinded requires you to be looking in the darkness but there is no darkness for you within the range of your blindsight) Basically the blindness condition doesn't affect you.
If I'm not mistaken, the original post is referring to the Rogue's Blindsense, not the form of vision (Blindsight)
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.
Your Blindsense in an area of Darkness doesn't remove the disadvantage on your attacks.
I think it is intended that you would still have the penalties you only know where the creatures are. But knowing where the creatures are doesn't help you attack any better. Creatures who can hear always know where an invisible creature is, but they still suffer the penalties because they still can't see them. If it was intended to function like blindsight they would have just said they rogue gains blindsight as long as they can hear.
Darkness makes the area dark. And therefore you have the blinded condition.
Although what you've said above seems to be how most people play, that is not the rule as written.
Darkness (Glossary):
An area of Darkness is Heavily Obscured.
Heavily Obscured (Glossary):
You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
Being located within darkness is a buff.
That's why the Darkness spell goes out of its way to describe how you could cast it onto an object that you could pick up and carry around with you, turning it on and off as desired by blocking or unblocking the object.
If you were in one-on-one combat against an enemy and you were trying to give yourself the best chance of winning the combat . . . if one of you had to be located within Darkness and the other had to be located within a brightly lit area AND you got to choose which one of you was located where -- the correct answer is to put yourself into the darkness and put your enemy into the brightly lit area. If you do this, your enemy will have the Blinded condition, and you will not and therefore you will be on the better side of the advantage/disadvantage rules.
In the 2014 rules there was various flavor text that said things like "Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness." The trope is meant as something advantageous that you can do. I know for sure that many groups didn't play this way, but who knows what the percentages were on that.
Let’s stop and think this thru, Darkness makes you heavily obscured (if you are in or beyond the darkness) so those trying to hit you from inside or outside the darkness are considered blind so they have disadvantage to hit you. However, you also have the blinded condition so you have disadvantage trying to hit them. Having some form of blindsight is/should eliminating the the condition within the range of the blindsight. Any interpretation that doesn’t do this renders blindsight useless. the question then is the range of the blindsight vs the range of the darkness. Darkness has a range of 15’ while blind senses have ranges from 10’ to 30’+. This creates some interesting possibilities. Inside the darkness vs a foe also inside: your foe has disadvantage to hit you, you on the other hand are not blinded and so you have advantage on anyone within melee range (5’-10’(reach)). Where it really gets interesting is when you are near the edge of the darkness, now you can see out with your blind senses but foes outside can’t see in and are also blinded so you get advantage vs them but they have disadvantage vs you ( unless they also have some sort of blind sense whose range includes you. If any sort of blind sense doesn’t negate the blinded condition then it is effectively useless so by RAI they all have to negate blindness and the blinded condition.
However, you also have the blinded condition so you have disadvantage trying to hit them.
Why would I have the Blinded condition? Nothing about standing in the darkness makes me have the Blinded Condition. I would only have the Blinded Condition if the enemy that I was attacking was also in the Darkness. If I am attacking someone who is outside of the darkness I would have advantage.
Having some form of blindsight is/should eliminating the the condition within the range of the blindsight. Any interpretation that doesn’t do this renders blindsight useless.
Blindsight doesn't currently interact correctly with the Blinded condition, but that's a separate discussion.
As for "blindsense", the Level 14 Rogue feature from the 2014 rules, that's a totally different story. However, I do not see an equivalent ability in the 2024 rules unless it is now tucked away into a subclass that I'm not aware of or something.
If following the 2014 rules, the answer to the OP is that you just don't have to guess the square if the enemy is hidden. But the hidden enemy would still be Unseen and Unheard and therefore he would gain the benefits of the Unseen Attackers and Targets rule when it comes to applying advantage and disadvantage. If he is attacking, his advantage for being Unseen would cancel out with the fact that he is blinded when trying to see us. If we are attacking, then our advantage for being an Unseen attacker would be canceled out by having disadvantage while trying to attack an Unseen Target. If he can somehow see us in the Darkness, like with Darkvision, then our attack is now at disadvantage.
I have to assume that when a creature with Darkvision ("can see . . . in Darkness . . . as if it were Dim Light") attempts to look into a Heavily Obscured area caused by Darkness, he does not actually "have" the Blinded condition while doing so. As written, technically, that might be a bad assumption. But for now, we'll go with that.
Where it really gets interesting is when you are near the edge of the darkness, now you can see out with your blind senses but foes outside can’t see in and are also blinded so you get advantage vs them but they have disadvantage vs you
This is how it works anyway if you are inside Darkness and your enemy is outside of it. You can see out of the Darkness by default, you don't need blindsight for that. This has been made even more clear in 2024 from how the rules for Darkness and for Heavily Obscured areas are written.
[...] As for "blindsense", the Level 14 Rogue feature from the 2014 rules, that's a totally different story. However, I do not see an equivalent ability in the 2024 rules unless it is now tucked away into a subclass that I'm not aware of or something. [...]
Let’s stop and think this thru, Darkness makes you heavily obscured (if you are in or beyond the darkness) so those trying to hit you from inside or outside the darkness are considered blind so they have disadvantage to hit you. However, you also have the blinded condition so you have disadvantage trying to hit them. Having some form of blindsight is/should eliminating the the condition within the range of the blindsight. Any interpretation that doesn’t do this renders blindsight useless. the question then is the range of the blindsight vs the range of the darkness. Darkness has a range of 15’ while blind senses have ranges from 10’ to 30’+. This creates some interesting possibilities. Inside the darkness vs a foe also inside: your foe has disadvantage to hit you, you on the other hand are not blinded and so you have advantage on anyone within melee range (5’-10’(reach)). Where it really gets interesting is when you are near the edge of the darkness, now you can see out with your blind senses but foes outside can’t see in and are also blinded so you get advantage vs them but they have disadvantage vs you ( unless they also have some sort of blind sense whose range includes you. If any sort of blind sense doesn’t negate the blinded condition then it is effectively useless so by RAI they all have to negate blindness and the blinded condition.
For the described situation, this is also how we play at my table.
As you said, Blindsight helps you against Heavy Obscured Areas, always taking into account your position and the Blindsight's range.
Why would I have the Blinded condition? Nothing about standing in the darkness makes me have the Blinded Condition. I would only have the Blinded Condition if the enemy that I was attacking was also in the Darkness. If I am attacking someone who is outside of the darkness I would have advantage.
Not only you ignore what opaque means, but you also misinterpret what trying to see something there implicate in terms of how vision operate .
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition when trying to see something there.
Vision goes out from your eyes, hence why we often refer it as line of sight . And before you can try to see outside Darkness, you must first see in it, which you can't because normal vision and even Darkvision can’t see through it.
Why would I have the Blinded condition? Nothing about standing in the darkness makes me have the Blinded Condition. I would only have the Blinded Condition if the enemy that I was attacking was also in the Darkness. If I am attacking someone who is outside of the darkness I would have advantage.
Not only you ignore what opaque means, but you also misinterpret what trying to see something there implicate in terms of how vision operate .
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition when trying to see something there.
Vision goes out from your eyes, hence why we often refer it as line of sight . And before you can try to see outside Darkness, you must first see in it, which you can't because normal vision and even Darkvision can’t see through it.
None of that is true according to the rules, which have improved clarity in 2024.
What you are saying is not the concept of an obscured area. An obscured area is an area that is obscured from your view. Not to be confused with the separate rule which governs Line of Sight.
Here's a quick example to understand Heavily Obscured areas. I put my coffee cup down on the table. I can see the coffee cup. Now I throw a dishtowel over the coffee cup such that it drapes completely over it and onto the table. The dishtowel obscures my view of the coffee cup and everything else that might be in the area under the dishtowel.
That's ALL it means for the area to be Heavily Obscured. That's what "opaque" means for this rule, as confirmed by the Glossary entry that does not mention that word at all and instead simply references its definition for this rule, which is the mechanically important part. Mechanically, I would have the Blinded condition when attempting to see the coffee cup, because I cannot see it because it's located in that area.
Now, completely separately from this, and handled on a case-by-case basis depending on the particular object, effect or environmental feature in question, we can also determine if that particular thing blocks our Line of Sight. That rule from the 2014 DMG did not list Darkness as an example of something that would block Line of Sight, which makes perfect logical sense.
The Darkness spell creates an area of magical Darkness.
From the Glossary, an area of Darkness is Heavily Obscured. Also from the Glossary, a Heavily Obscured area just means that you cannot see something that is located in a Heavily Obscured space. That's because, by default (with normal senses), if you try to do so you have the Blinded condition. The Blinded condition specifies that you can't see -- therefore, you cannot "see through" the Darkness to an object that's within that Darkness. But if you look elsewhere, you are not Blinded.
In other words, as you shift your focus between something that is within the Darkness and something that is outside of the Darkness, your eyes actually go back and forth very quickly between being Blinded and not being Blinded. If you did this very quickly, you would be seeing a strobe light effect. Blinded, Not Blinded, Blinded, Not Blinded, Blinded, Not Blinded, and so on. While you are Not Blinded, you can "see through" the Darkness just fine. Because you're not Blinded . . . and because nothing about Darkness actually interrupts Line of Sight.
Now, let's go back to the default case where you have normal senses and are trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space, and so therefore you are Blinded. Well, if you have Darkvision, this is countered:
If you have Darkvision, you can see . . . in Darkness within that range as if it were Dim Light. You discern colors in that Darkness only as shades of gray.
So, if you have Darkvision and you try to see something in a Heavily Obscured space, you are not Blinded because you would use the rules for a Lightly Obscured area instead of for a Heavily Obscured area to determine whether or not you are Blinded and how well you can see.
However, the Darkness spell creates an area of Magical Darkness, not just Darkness. The spell description is written such that all of the normal rules for Darkness apply, and in addition, creatures with Darkvision cannot see through this type of Darkness the way that they can with normal Darkness. The way that they "see through" normal Darkness that is different from normal senses is that they can see something in a Heavily Obscured space. So now, they can no longer do that. As a result, a creature with Darkvision is Blinded when trying to see something in a space that is obscured by Magical Darkness.
The Darkness spell creates an area of magical Darkness.
From the Glossary, an area of Darkness is Heavily Obscured. Also from the Glossary, a Heavily Obscured area just means that you cannot see something that is located in a Heavily Obscured space. That's because, by default (with normal senses), if you try to do so you have the Blinded condition. The Blinded condition specifies that you can't see -- therefore, you cannot "see through" the Darkness to an object that's within that Darkness. But if you look elsewhere, you are not Blinded.
In other words, as you shift your focus between something that is within the Darkness and something that is outside of the Darkness, your eyes actually go back and forth very quickly between being Blinded and not being Blinded. If you did this very quickly, you would be seeing a strobe light effect. Blinded, Not Blinded, Blinded, Not Blinded, Blinded, Not Blinded, and so on. While you are Not Blinded, you can "see through" the Darkness just fine. Because you're not Blinded . . . and because nothing about Darkness actually interrupts Line of Sight.
Now, let's go back to the default case where you have normal senses and are trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space, and so therefore you are Blinded. Well, if you have Darkvision, this is countered:
If you have Darkvision, you can see . . . in Darkness within that range as if it were Dim Light. You discern colors in that Darkness only as shades of gray.
So, if you have Darkvision and you try to see something in a Heavily Obscured space, you are not Blinded because you would use the rules for a Lightly Obscured area instead of for a Heavily Obscured area to determine whether or not you are Blinded and how well you can see.
However, the Darkness spell creates an area of Magical Darkness, not just Darkness. The spell description is written such that all of the normal rules for Darkness apply, and in addition, creatures with Darkvision cannot see through this type of Darkness the way that they can with normal Darkness. The way that they "see through" normal Darkness that is different from normal senses is that they can see something in a Heavily Obscured space. So now, they can no longer do that. As a result, a creature with Darkvision is Blinded when trying to see something in a space that is obscured by Magical Darkness.
What a bad conclusion coming from a bad reading. I normally hate getting this technical, but there's faulty logic in your argument based on your interpretation that the rule refers to things only looking into the Heavily Obscured area; but that's not what the rule says.
The rule says: "You have the Blinded condition when trying to see something there." It doesn't say "inside" or "in", meaning it is all inclusive in what it affects. If you're looking from the outside into the area, you're Blinded, but you're also Blinded if you're in the area looking in and out because you're there.
Using your own example about what opaque means but with people: a person covers themselves with a thick blanket and you try to see them, but the blanket obscures your view of the person and everything else that might be in the area under the blanket. However, the person inside the blanket also has their vision obscured of everything inside the blanket and outside of it while there. The blanquet is opaque, therefore not see-through. In the case of Darkness, the spell is the blanket.
Was it worded poorly in the rule? Most likely, but it doesn't change the meaning
If you're looking from the outside into the area, you're Blinded, but you're also Blinded if you're in the area looking in and out because you're there.
Nope, that's incorrect. That's not what the rule says. The rule only applies when trying to see something "there", which refers to the area being discussed.
It already worked this way in 2014, but it has become a lot clearer that it does indeed work this way in 2024.
You are also ignoring the Glossary entry for this rule, which summarizes the mechanically important portions of the rule while eliminating the flavor. In the Glossary entry, the word "opaque" is never mentioned. That's because that word has a specific definition created by the rule itself -- the common english definition is not used for this rule. In the Glossary entry, instead of using the word, they simply jump straight to using its definition, which is the mechanically relevant part.
Once again, the entire text from the Glossary for the rule for a Heavily Obscured area:
Heavily Obscured
You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space. See also “Blinded,” “Darkness,” and chapter 1 (“Exploration”).
As written, it is not ambiguous. The rule is clear in 2024.
Using your own example about what opaque means but with people: a person covers themselves with a thick blanket and you try to see them, but the blanket obscures your view of the person and everything else that might be in the area under the blanket. However, the person inside the blanket also has their vision obscured of everything inside the blanket and outside of it while there. The blanquet is opaque, therefore not see-through. In the case of Darkness, the spell is the blanket.
This is all totally incorrect. That's not at all what I've said about what opaque means for this rule.
The Heavily Obscured area rule ONLY specifies that I cannot see the person that is located under the blanket. This rule says NOTHING about whether or not the blanket prevents the person underneath it from seeing things that are outside of it. (In fact, in real life, depending on the blanket, the person actually might be able to see out from underneath it.)
To determine whether or not the person under the blanket can see something that is outside of the blanket, you must refer to a different rule -- the rule for Line of Sight. With this rule, it is handled on a case-by-case basis depending on the particular blanket involved, or whatever other object or effect may or may not be actually blocking Line of Sight.
NONE of that is part of the rule for a Heavily Obscured area. That's not the concept of a heavily obscured area and that's not what the rule says.
Once you determine that a creature is located within a heavily obscured area and is attempting to see something that is located outside of that area, you have to determine exactly what is causing the area to be obscured, and whether or not that object or effect actually blocks Line of Sight or not according to the Line of Sight rule, NOT the Heavily Obscured area rule which does not address that question at all. In the 2014 DMG, Darkness was not listed as an example of something that blocks Line of Sight -- because it doesn't do that.
I promise you -- when a character looks up into the sky at night, they CAN see the moon and the stars.
I am 100% certain about how this mechanic works based on the rules as they are written. I am willing to die on this hill regardless of how long other people want to drag out threads like this with incorrect information.
You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space. See also “Blinded,” “Darkness,” and chapter 1 (“Exploration”).
As written, it is not ambiguous. The rule is clear in 2024.
That's absolutely incorrect. As written, it is completely ambiguous. "In a heavily obscured space" could refer to either "trying" or "something" with equal probability, and it could even be phrased as it is specifically so that it encompasses both those possibilities. These sorts of prepositional phrases can freely float in English grammar; there's no requirement that they have some position relative to their referent. I don't really care what the designers intended the text to mean and won't argue for any position here; I rule in whatever way makes most realistic sense. But any claim to the unambiguity of the text is objectively, and obviously, incorrect.
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If a tiefling rogue with blind sense casts darkness and fights within it, assuming the enemy has no similar advantage, how does blind sense give an advantage to the rogue?
Does the rogue, knowing where the enemy is within 10 feet get advantage, or cancel disadvantage, or does some other mechanic come into play?
Being in total darkness (due to the spell for example) means you get the "Blind" condition. Said condition means that you have disadvantage on your attacks, while all enemies get advantage on their attacks against you. Therefore the rogue would get advantage which in turn would also allow him to deal sneak attack damage.
Darkness makes the area dark. And therefore you have the blinded condition. I believe the way blindsight works you are basically treated as having sight within that range and would not be blinded. (As the condition for blinded requires you to be looking in the darkness but there is no darkness for you within the range of your blindsight) Basically the blindness condition doesn't affect you.
It would still makes your Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Advantage, and your attack rolls have Disadvantage and if the enemy can't see in it it would also which would makes both of you rolling with neither of them, rolling one d20.
If I'm not mistaken, the original post is referring to the Rogue's Blindsense, not the form of vision (Blindsight)
Your Blindsense in an area of Darkness doesn't remove the disadvantage on your attacks.
I think it is intended that you would still have the penalties you only know where the creatures are. But knowing where the creatures are doesn't help you attack any better. Creatures who can hear always know where an invisible creature is, but they still suffer the penalties because they still can't see them. If it was intended to function like blindsight they would have just said they rogue gains blindsight as long as they can hear.
Although what you've said above seems to be how most people play, that is not the rule as written.
Darkness (Glossary):
Heavily Obscured (Glossary):
Being located within darkness is a buff.
That's why the Darkness spell goes out of its way to describe how you could cast it onto an object that you could pick up and carry around with you, turning it on and off as desired by blocking or unblocking the object.
If you were in one-on-one combat against an enemy and you were trying to give yourself the best chance of winning the combat . . . if one of you had to be located within Darkness and the other had to be located within a brightly lit area AND you got to choose which one of you was located where -- the correct answer is to put yourself into the darkness and put your enemy into the brightly lit area. If you do this, your enemy will have the Blinded condition, and you will not and therefore you will be on the better side of the advantage/disadvantage rules.
Does anyone actually play the game that way?
In the 2014 rules there was various flavor text that said things like "Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness." The trope is meant as something advantageous that you can do. I know for sure that many groups didn't play this way, but who knows what the percentages were on that.
Let’s stop and think this thru, Darkness makes you heavily obscured (if you are in or beyond the darkness) so those trying to hit you from inside or outside the darkness are considered blind so they have disadvantage to hit you. However, you also have the blinded condition so you have disadvantage trying to hit them. Having some form of blindsight is/should eliminating the the condition within the range of the blindsight. Any interpretation that doesn’t do this renders blindsight useless. the question then is the range of the blindsight vs the range of the darkness. Darkness has a range of 15’ while blind senses have ranges from 10’ to 30’+. This creates some interesting possibilities. Inside the darkness vs a foe also inside: your foe has disadvantage to hit you, you on the other hand are not blinded and so you have advantage on anyone within melee range (5’-10’(reach)). Where it really gets interesting is when you are near the edge of the darkness, now you can see out with your blind senses but foes outside can’t see in and are also blinded so you get advantage vs them but they have disadvantage vs you ( unless they also have some sort of blind sense whose range includes you. If any sort of blind sense doesn’t negate the blinded condition then it is effectively useless so by RAI they all have to negate blindness and the blinded condition.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Only if you are in the Darkness as per the rule for Heavily Obscured areas.
Why would I have the Blinded condition? Nothing about standing in the darkness makes me have the Blinded Condition. I would only have the Blinded Condition if the enemy that I was attacking was also in the Darkness. If I am attacking someone who is outside of the darkness I would have advantage.
Blindsight doesn't currently interact correctly with the Blinded condition, but that's a separate discussion.
As for "blindsense", the Level 14 Rogue feature from the 2014 rules, that's a totally different story. However, I do not see an equivalent ability in the 2024 rules unless it is now tucked away into a subclass that I'm not aware of or something.
If following the 2014 rules, the answer to the OP is that you just don't have to guess the square if the enemy is hidden. But the hidden enemy would still be Unseen and Unheard and therefore he would gain the benefits of the Unseen Attackers and Targets rule when it comes to applying advantage and disadvantage. If he is attacking, his advantage for being Unseen would cancel out with the fact that he is blinded when trying to see us. If we are attacking, then our advantage for being an Unseen attacker would be canceled out by having disadvantage while trying to attack an Unseen Target. If he can somehow see us in the Darkness, like with Darkvision, then our attack is now at disadvantage.
I have to assume that when a creature with Darkvision ("can see . . . in Darkness . . . as if it were Dim Light") attempts to look into a Heavily Obscured area caused by Darkness, he does not actually "have" the Blinded condition while doing so. As written, technically, that might be a bad assumption. But for now, we'll go with that.
Due to how things are written, this is currently not true. Hopefully, this will be fixed.
This is how it works anyway if you are inside Darkness and your enemy is outside of it. You can see out of the Darkness by default, you don't need blindsight for that. This has been made even more clear in 2024 from how the rules for Darkness and for Heavily Obscured areas are written.
It was removed from the Rogue, yes.
For the described situation, this is also how we play at my table.
As you said, Blindsight helps you against Heavy Obscured Areas, always taking into account your position and the Blindsight's range.
Not only you ignore what opaque means, but you also misinterpret what trying to see something there implicate in terms of how vision operate .
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition when trying to see something there.
Vision goes out from your eyes, hence why we often refer it as line of sight . And before you can try to see outside Darkness, you must first see in it, which you can't because normal vision and even Darkvision can’t see through it.
None of that is true according to the rules, which have improved clarity in 2024.
What you are saying is not the concept of an obscured area. An obscured area is an area that is obscured from your view. Not to be confused with the separate rule which governs Line of Sight.
Here's a quick example to understand Heavily Obscured areas. I put my coffee cup down on the table. I can see the coffee cup. Now I throw a dishtowel over the coffee cup such that it drapes completely over it and onto the table. The dishtowel obscures my view of the coffee cup and everything else that might be in the area under the dishtowel.
That's ALL it means for the area to be Heavily Obscured. That's what "opaque" means for this rule, as confirmed by the Glossary entry that does not mention that word at all and instead simply references its definition for this rule, which is the mechanically important part. Mechanically, I would have the Blinded condition when attempting to see the coffee cup, because I cannot see it because it's located in that area.
Now, completely separately from this, and handled on a case-by-case basis depending on the particular object, effect or environmental feature in question, we can also determine if that particular thing blocks our Line of Sight. That rule from the 2014 DMG did not list Darkness as an example of something that would block Line of Sight, which makes perfect logical sense.
Explain how normal vision can see through Darkness, while Darkvision can’t see through it?
The Darkness spell creates an area of magical Darkness.
From the Glossary, an area of Darkness is Heavily Obscured. Also from the Glossary, a Heavily Obscured area just means that you cannot see something that is located in a Heavily Obscured space. That's because, by default (with normal senses), if you try to do so you have the Blinded condition. The Blinded condition specifies that you can't see -- therefore, you cannot "see through" the Darkness to an object that's within that Darkness. But if you look elsewhere, you are not Blinded.
In other words, as you shift your focus between something that is within the Darkness and something that is outside of the Darkness, your eyes actually go back and forth very quickly between being Blinded and not being Blinded. If you did this very quickly, you would be seeing a strobe light effect. Blinded, Not Blinded, Blinded, Not Blinded, Blinded, Not Blinded, and so on. While you are Not Blinded, you can "see through" the Darkness just fine. Because you're not Blinded . . . and because nothing about Darkness actually interrupts Line of Sight.
Now, let's go back to the default case where you have normal senses and are trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space, and so therefore you are Blinded. Well, if you have Darkvision, this is countered:
So, if you have Darkvision and you try to see something in a Heavily Obscured space, you are not Blinded because you would use the rules for a Lightly Obscured area instead of for a Heavily Obscured area to determine whether or not you are Blinded and how well you can see.
However, the Darkness spell creates an area of Magical Darkness, not just Darkness. The spell description is written such that all of the normal rules for Darkness apply, and in addition, creatures with Darkvision cannot see through this type of Darkness the way that they can with normal Darkness. The way that they "see through" normal Darkness that is different from normal senses is that they can see something in a Heavily Obscured space. So now, they can no longer do that. As a result, a creature with Darkvision is Blinded when trying to see something in a space that is obscured by Magical Darkness.
What a bad conclusion coming from a bad reading. I normally hate getting this technical, but there's faulty logic in your argument based on your interpretation that the rule refers to things only looking into the Heavily Obscured area; but that's not what the rule says.
The rule says: "You have the Blinded condition when trying to see something there." It doesn't say "inside" or "in", meaning it is all inclusive in what it affects. If you're looking from the outside into the area, you're Blinded, but you're also Blinded if you're in the area looking in and out because you're there.
Using your own example about what opaque means but with people: a person covers themselves with a thick blanket and you try to see them, but the blanket obscures your view of the person and everything else that might be in the area under the blanket. However, the person inside the blanket also has their vision obscured of everything inside the blanket and outside of it while there. The blanquet is opaque, therefore not see-through. In the case of Darkness, the spell is the blanket.
Was it worded poorly in the rule? Most likely, but it doesn't change the meaning
Nope, that's incorrect. That's not what the rule says. The rule only applies when trying to see something "there", which refers to the area being discussed.
It already worked this way in 2014, but it has become a lot clearer that it does indeed work this way in 2024.
You are also ignoring the Glossary entry for this rule, which summarizes the mechanically important portions of the rule while eliminating the flavor. In the Glossary entry, the word "opaque" is never mentioned. That's because that word has a specific definition created by the rule itself -- the common english definition is not used for this rule. In the Glossary entry, instead of using the word, they simply jump straight to using its definition, which is the mechanically relevant part.
Once again, the entire text from the Glossary for the rule for a Heavily Obscured area:
As written, it is not ambiguous. The rule is clear in 2024.
This is all totally incorrect. That's not at all what I've said about what opaque means for this rule.
The Heavily Obscured area rule ONLY specifies that I cannot see the person that is located under the blanket. This rule says NOTHING about whether or not the blanket prevents the person underneath it from seeing things that are outside of it. (In fact, in real life, depending on the blanket, the person actually might be able to see out from underneath it.)
To determine whether or not the person under the blanket can see something that is outside of the blanket, you must refer to a different rule -- the rule for Line of Sight. With this rule, it is handled on a case-by-case basis depending on the particular blanket involved, or whatever other object or effect may or may not be actually blocking Line of Sight.
NONE of that is part of the rule for a Heavily Obscured area. That's not the concept of a heavily obscured area and that's not what the rule says.
Once you determine that a creature is located within a heavily obscured area and is attempting to see something that is located outside of that area, you have to determine exactly what is causing the area to be obscured, and whether or not that object or effect actually blocks Line of Sight or not according to the Line of Sight rule, NOT the Heavily Obscured area rule which does not address that question at all. In the 2014 DMG, Darkness was not listed as an example of something that blocks Line of Sight -- because it doesn't do that.
I promise you -- when a character looks up into the sky at night, they CAN see the moon and the stars.
I am 100% certain about how this mechanic works based on the rules as they are written. I am willing to die on this hill regardless of how long other people want to drag out threads like this with incorrect information.
That's absolutely incorrect. As written, it is completely ambiguous. "In a heavily obscured space" could refer to either "trying" or "something" with equal probability, and it could even be phrased as it is specifically so that it encompasses both those possibilities. These sorts of prepositional phrases can freely float in English grammar; there's no requirement that they have some position relative to their referent. I don't really care what the designers intended the text to mean and won't argue for any position here; I rule in whatever way makes most realistic sense. But any claim to the unambiguity of the text is objectively, and obviously, incorrect.