Thieve's Cant is not a written language. Period. There are secret signs and symbols that thieve's use as noted above... but the cant itself is not a specific written language. It can encompass all languages. The warlock merely knows what was said, not what was intended.
I'd argue that Eyes of the Rune Keeper cannot automatically bypass encryption or code phrases, etc., but that that's not what written Thieve's Cant is. Written Thieve's Cant is symbols that represent ideas on their lonesome - if you understand the symbol, you understand what it's trying to say. Written Thieve's Cant is essentially the Thieve's marks from Skyrim, as far as I understand it.
Eyes of the Rune Keeper is specifically about being able to interpret markings like that, up to and including much more complex sets of markings that Thieve's Cant can't support (because written Thieve's Cant isn't a full language, and Eyes of the Rune Keeper allows you to read those just fine).
So yes, Eyes of the Rune Keeper should allow you to understand the meaning of the symbols that make up Thieve's Cant, just like it can allow you to understand someone's personal method of writing shorthand or someone writing in a long-lost dead language, but it wouldn't be able to decode something written in plain English as 'Today I ate a slab of bread' to actually be a code-phrase meaning 'strike at the sound of drums'.
EDIT: Note that someone who knows Thieve's Cant could reasonably write out something in common using Thieve's Cant (rather than the secret signs/symbols ala the thieve's symbols in Skyrim) and, since it's in code, Eyes of the Rune Keeper would not work.
It depends on how the written Thieve's Cant is written whether or not Eyes of the Rune Keeper would work, in other words. If it's a shorthand symbol for the word 'Danger', Eyes of the Rune Keeper will work just fine on it - but if it's the actual written word 'Orangutan' and that means 'Danger' in this context, then Eyes of the Rune Keeper would not work.
Totally disagreed. Here an example:
In an a letter you find this: L' acqua è calda (which is the italian for "The water is hot").
With Eyes of the Rune Keeper you can see the translation: The water is hot. But only a guy with Thieves' can understand the real meanig of that message, which may be: It is the right moment to act.
Only other characters which know Thieves' Cant can get the real meaning of that message.
The question isn't whether a person can understand the code can be understood with Eyes of the Rune Keeper. That's not what LangyMD is saying. They're arguing that if written Thieves' Cant is represented as a symbolic language - such as symbols that each have a specific meaning, a symbol for 'this house is safe' for instance - then Eyes can decode it. If the message is written in common but in a code, then yes the code would still be obfuscated.
That's also what the comprehend languages tweets you linked reference. A language that is all allusion would not be understood by the Eyes. But if it's just symbols that have meaning and not a message hidden in a sentence, the argument changes. The difference is between a written phrase that means something different than literally stated and a runic language with characters that only thieves know.
Right. But Thieves's Cant RAI is a code that can be spoken in any language. It does not have its own "runes" or letters. Literally in the official description it says that it concerns only conversation:
Thieves’ Cant
During your rogue training you learned thieves’ cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that knows thieves’ cant understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly.
In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves’ guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run.
I was essentially saying that the 'secret signs and symbols' part of Thieve's Cant can be understood by the Eyes of the Rune Keeper, but the 'secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code' part can not.
It says you can "read" all writing. That means you read and understand it, just like when you get languages, it says you read, write and speak it. The invocation says you "read" it, not you look at it but can;t understand it. "All writing" means ALL: languages, codes, numbers, ALL. You can "read" them. I get really tired of "e5 snobs" who pick apart every spell and ability because they didn't get it and they're jealous. The game is supposed to be "FUN" not a trial. Lighten up a little and be glad when someone in your party gets a special ability. It will only help your party and save countless hours being stuck with unreadable texts, unable to move forward on a quest.
read
rēd/
verb
verb: read; 3rd person present: reads; past tense: read; past participle: read; gerund or present participle: reading
1.
look at and comprehend the meaning of (written or printed matter) by mentally interpreting the characters or symbols of which it is composed.
I think I'd let it work in some cases. For example, if it's a letter in common (or Orc, or whatever) that has Thieves' Cant sub-coding, then I'd say you just pick up the literal meaning and not the coded sub-text. If it's a symbol scratched on the wall of a house that means "lots of good loot here, poorly guarded," I'd probably let it work to translate that.
The reason you don't know what Theive's Cant means is not that you don't know the language, it's that you don't know the code. It can be spoken in common, and you still don't know it unless you are proficient in it.
So, you know what literal words are being said, perhaps, but at best this gives you a riddle you have some chance of puzzling out.
Sounds like a good solution to a controversial subject. My DM allows it automatically to mean "all" writing and doesn't make any extra requirements for codes, but I know some are more precise or picky over the rules, So this is a good way to appease their worries and make everybody happy.
Sounds like a good solution to a controversial subject. My DM allows it automatically to mean "all" writing and doesn't make any extra requirements for codes, but I know some are more precise or picky over the rules, So this is a good way to appease their worries and make everybody happy.
Sure, though for me, at least, it isn't about sticking to the rules so much. I mean, I do think that it's a pretty straightforward reading of the rules, but it's also how I'd run it even if I didn't think the rules gave a solution, because I think it's more interesting. I don't think that EoTRK should solve puzzles or riddles for you, which is exactly what coded language is.
I hate to re-necromancize, but I noticed that Jeremy Crawford has commented on this exact situation, so we have an official intention (what you do in your campaigns is irrelevant :p ).
I hate to re-necromancize, but I noticed that Jeremy Crawford has commented on this exact situation, so we have an official intention (what you do in your campaigns is irrelevant :p ).
Eyes of the Runekeeper is a precious invocation. Precious because you don't get a lot of them, so they need to be useful. Gimping this invocation means nobody will want to take it. As a DM my personal ruling is;
Ancient languages? Yes.
Spell scrolls? Yes. You can real ALL spell scrolls regardless of class.
Secret Ciphers? No. You need to understand context.
Being able to read all scrolls is worth an invocation pick by itself.
The big thing with Thieves Cant is from what I've read and how I run it, it's in any existing language but written in a way that onlookers won't understand it, so I see it more as a cipher and the Invocation is more about being able to read the language, so you could read what was being said, but you wouldn't be able to decipher it. Plus symbols are symbols, if it were part of an alphabet or something, you'd understand, it's honestly up to the DM on the ruling, but I would say you couldn't decipher the Thieves Cant as a Warlock
The big thing with Thieves Cant is from what I've read and how I run it, it's in any existing language but written in a way that onlookers won't understand it, so I see it more as a cipher and the Invocation is more about being able to read the language, so you could read what was being said, but you wouldn't be able to decipher it. Plus symbols are symbols, if it were part of an alphabet or something, you'd understand, it's honestly up to the DM on the ruling, but I would say you couldn't decipher the Thieves Cant as a Warlock
Thieves cant is ANY language. Common, Dwarven, giant, whatever.
It says you can "read" all writing. That means you read and understand it, just like when you get languages, it says you read, write and speak it. The invocation says you "read" it, not you look at it but can;t understand it. "All writing" means ALL: languages, codes, numbers, ALL. You can "read" them. I get really tired of "e5 snobs" who pick apart every spell and ability because they didn't get it and they're jealous. The game is supposed to be "FUN" not a trial. Lighten up a little and be glad when someone in your party gets a special ability. It will only help your party and save countless hours being stuck with unreadable texts, unable to move forward on a quest.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
How does that work with other symbols? Like... in modern context if you've got Eyes of the Runekeeper, do you see the symbols on the bathroom doors and see, "Ah, this clearly states "women's restroom". Although I guess I'm just picturing it as the character literally seeing the written words in their native language... mostly because I work in visual art and that's how I would convey that concept visually in a comic or TV show or something.
Some points: 1) Writing is a way of encoding speech into written symbols. 2) Writing is a way of intentionally recording meaning. 3) Thieves' Cant as a speaking method is an a way of encoding speech to obscure obvious meaning, which still intentionally transmitting that meaning. 4) Thieves' Cant as a full mode of communication must be written down in "full language". The short-hand symbols are useful as labels only, with clear meanings as of the time of writing. That last bit is important: as of the time of writing. 5) Eyes of the Rune Keeper is a magical ability with access to a fuller reality and information set than is available in any normal sense. 6) Magic is very often associated with the setting of Intention. Without clear intention, some say, there cannot be magic. Call it Will. (Or perhaps Bob. Whatever.) 7) Eyes could be acting as a computer (as described above) literally translating the words as inscribed into the mind of the Warlock, perhaps gleaning the words' meaning from across time (think: Tardis). Eyes could also be looking past the literal words to read the original intention of the inscriber; this would be a more powerful, even dangerous, ability. This is akin to being able to look at an encrypted document, immediately divine the 256-bit SSL key, read the text, and understand the _meaning_ of the text as written by the author. All but that last step should bring to mind the means-and-ways of quantum encryption, something that we can (almost?) do now. The last step of divining the intention of the author is pure high magic (not discussed here). Possible, but certainly not easy. Nonetheless, it has been mentioned that Eyes would certainly be able to read a page of an ancient, forgotten language. It may not be convenient, but languages...and dialects...evolve over time. A word clearly understood to mean X 200 years ago, could now be clearly understood to mean Y. Or 20 years ago. Or 2. In the 1980s, everyone knew was spam was. Eyes would know that a document was written to describe a fried breakfast meat; Eyes would also know that a document was written to describe low-value advertisements with a substantial annoyance factor. I.e., it would know intention, not just the literal words. Bottom Line: How powerful is the Patron? Do They have the ability to grant this ability? It is not trivial at that final level, and would make anyone with the ability a true danger to any Monarch, Government, or Power with written secrets. Remember that the Warlock would have Reason for asking for this ability originally, and would be giving up other, powerful options.
Thieve's Cant is not a written language. Period. There are secret signs and symbols that thieve's use as noted above... but the cant itself is not a specific written language. It can encompass all languages. The warlock merely knows what was said, not what was intended.
I think I'd let it work in some cases. For example, if it's a letter in common (or Orc, or whatever) that has Thieves' Cant sub-coding, then I'd say you just pick up the literal meaning and not the coded sub-text. If it's a symbol scratched on the wall of a house that means "lots of good loot here, poorly guarded," I'd probably let it work to translate that.
EDIT: I see LangyMD already said this.
Thread necromancy!
I'm the minority. Thieves cant is a cypher, not a language, imho, so I wouldn't allow it. It uses double speak and context clues.
The reason you don't know what Theive's Cant means is not that you don't know the language, it's that you don't know the code. It can be spoken in common, and you still don't know it unless you are proficient in it.
So, you know what literal words are being said, perhaps, but at best this gives you a riddle you have some chance of puzzling out.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
DM asks you to make an Intelligence check to discern the meaning of the cant when you read it. Easy enough.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Sounds like a good solution to a controversial subject. My DM allows it automatically to mean "all" writing and doesn't make any extra requirements for codes, but I know some are more precise or picky over the rules, So this is a good way to appease their worries and make everybody happy.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I hate to re-necromancize, but I noticed that Jeremy Crawford has commented on this exact situation, so we have an official intention (what you do in your campaigns is irrelevant :p ).
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/07/is-eyes-of-the-rune-keeper-intended-to-let-you-understand-codes-such-as-numeric-ciphers-or-thieves-cant-jargon/
We do bones, motherf***ker!
Eyes of the Runekeeper is a precious invocation. Precious because you don't get a lot of them, so they need to be useful. Gimping this invocation means nobody will want to take it. As a DM my personal ruling is;
Ancient languages? Yes.
Spell scrolls? Yes. You can real ALL spell scrolls regardless of class.
Secret Ciphers? No. You need to understand context.
Being able to read all scrolls is worth an invocation pick by itself.
The big thing with Thieves Cant is from what I've read and how I run it, it's in any existing language but written in a way that onlookers won't understand it, so I see it more as a cipher and the Invocation is more about being able to read the language, so you could read what was being said, but you wouldn't be able to decipher it. Plus symbols are symbols, if it were part of an alphabet or something, you'd understand, it's honestly up to the DM on the ruling, but I would say you couldn't decipher the Thieves Cant as a Warlock
Thieves cant is ANY language. Common, Dwarven, giant, whatever.
you just say phrases and such to get meanings.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.wikihow.com/Play-Snaps?amp=1
example of thieves cant in real life.
how is the hero eradicating rats early?
translation- Hi There. Taking first letter of each word, another example of thieves cant.
the rule of thieves cant itself even says it. A person without thieves cant canNOT decipher it.
My Eyes of the Runekeeper failed to divine the embedded image even though I can clearly read the representation. :)
src="data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAA4AAAAOCAQAAAC1QeVaAAAAi0lEQVQokWNgQAYyQFzGsIJBnwED8DNcBpK+DM8YfjMUokqxMRxg+A9m8TJsBLLSEFKMDCuBAv/hCncxfGWQhUn2gaVAktkMXkBSHmh0OwNU8D9csoHhO4MikN7BcAGb5H+GYiDdCTQYq2QubkkkY/E6CLtXdiJ7BTMQMnAHXxFm6IICvhwY8AYQLgCw2U9d90B8BAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==" type="image"
Was this your intent? Good example :) .. but you seemed to be arguing the other side of it ...
That's my reading of it. Eyes of the Rune Keeper allows you to read an alchemy book, but it doesn't give you understanding of the words.
So you end up with something like Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Shaka, when the walls fell.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
How does that work with other symbols? Like... in modern context if you've got Eyes of the Runekeeper, do you see the symbols on the bathroom doors and see, "Ah, this clearly states "women's restroom". Although I guess I'm just picturing it as the character literally seeing the written words in their native language... mostly because I work in visual art and that's how I would convey that concept visually in a comic or TV show or something.
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Good discussion.
Some points:
1) Writing is a way of encoding speech into written symbols.
2) Writing is a way of intentionally recording meaning.
3) Thieves' Cant as a speaking method is an a way of encoding speech to obscure obvious meaning, which still intentionally transmitting that meaning.
4) Thieves' Cant as a full mode of communication must be written down in "full language". The short-hand symbols are useful as labels only, with clear meanings as of the time of writing. That last bit is important: as of the time of writing.
5) Eyes of the Rune Keeper is a magical ability with access to a fuller reality and information set than is available in any normal sense.
6) Magic is very often associated with the setting of Intention. Without clear intention, some say, there cannot be magic. Call it Will. (Or perhaps Bob. Whatever.)
7) Eyes could be acting as a computer (as described above) literally translating the words as inscribed into the mind of the Warlock, perhaps gleaning the words' meaning from across time (think: Tardis). Eyes could also be looking past the literal words to read the original intention of the inscriber; this would be a more powerful, even dangerous, ability. This is akin to being able to look at an encrypted document, immediately divine the 256-bit SSL key, read the text, and understand the _meaning_ of the text as written by the author. All but that last step should bring to mind the means-and-ways of quantum encryption, something that we can (almost?) do now. The last step of divining the intention of the author is pure high magic (not discussed here). Possible, but certainly not easy.
Nonetheless, it has been mentioned that Eyes would certainly be able to read a page of an ancient, forgotten language.
It may not be convenient, but languages...and dialects...evolve over time. A word clearly understood to mean X 200 years ago, could now be clearly understood to mean Y. Or 20 years ago. Or 2. In the 1980s, everyone knew was spam was.
Eyes would know that a document was written to describe a fried breakfast meat; Eyes would also know that a document was written to describe low-value advertisements with a substantial annoyance factor.
I.e., it would know intention, not just the literal words.
Bottom Line:
How powerful is the Patron? Do They have the ability to grant this ability? It is not trivial at that final level, and would make anyone with the ability a true danger to any Monarch, Government, or Power with written secrets. Remember that the Warlock would have Reason for asking for this ability originally, and would be giving up other, powerful options.