Since Subtle spell allows a Sorcerer to cast spells without verbal or somatic components, what would be the consequence of allowing a multi-classed Sorcerer 3/Druid X be able to cast certain spells while in Wildshape?
For the sake of the argument, let's say that the thematic reason why non-18th level Druids cannot cast spells while in beast form is b/c it takes them a long time to learn how to do the gestures and vocalizations needed for spells to happen. Creatures have very different voice boxes and lips than humanoids and also lack the manual dexterity to handle things like crochet needles or a quill.
So my questions are:
A) To what extent would this make for creative new ways to use spells at lower tier games?
B) To what extent would playing a multi-attribute caster class like this break the action economy or power scale?
You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
RAW, Subtle Spell would not let you cast in Wild Shape, as the Wild Shape restriction is ALL spells, not just ones with somatic or verbal components.
As a DM though, I would allow it, maybe with an increased sorcery point cost or limited uses.
The player would be giving up the wild shape attack actions to cast a spell. So they main benefit they would get is more HP, a different AC, and special qualities.
The main game breaking thing would be doing it while an owl or other thing with a fly speed.
You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
RAW, Subtle Spell would not let you cast in Wild Shape, as the Wild Shape restriction is ALL spells, not just ones with somatic or verbal components.
Right, I'm aware of that. So I'm asking IF the reason that Druids cannot cast in Wildshape, is b/c of an in-narrative reason (lack of human-like voice box and clumsier or lack of hands) rather than a meta-gaming reason (b/c the rules just say so!) what are the likely consequences?
The biggest risks of abuse I see is that the creatures they are wild shaped into will have a better AC, and so it would be harder to knock them out of concentration; or they have a fly speed or other exotic form of movement that makes them harder to hit, so they can sling spells from range with impunity.
The reasons I think are probably a little of both. You are an owl, owls don't cast spells. Also, casting spells from 60 feet in the air is OP.
Hmmm, okay, so your owl-shaped Druid can fly without concentration...at level 8. Add the 3 levels it took in Sorcercer to be able to cast spells via Metamagic. So at minimum, that's an 11th level character. I think by then a lot of encounters will include foes with flight and dangerous spell attacks at range. That seems to me a significant, but still very situational advantage.
Don't most beasts have pretty bad AC? I think with a +1 Dex, leather armor, and a shield, a druid will have better AC in caster form than in most beast forms.
Not that I'm an expert on this subject (which is why I'm broaching it here), but I could also see a Druid 'Shaped into a regular sized spider stealthing into the enemy's lair and casting the Web spell on a group of guards. Then use the Message cantrip to inform her allies that it's now okay for the party to enter the room. Follow this up with casting Quickened Absorb Elements on herself. If enemies are still in the Web, she can drop in the Web herself and light it up with Produce Flame on the next round. Effective, but not really OP.
Yeah, its not going to be game breaking, especially if they are fighting anything with a fly speed like a dragon, which could leave the druid isolated in a 1v1. Its just what the main concern would be.
As I said in my original post, I would allow it as a DM.
@WolfoftheBees - Right. Beast forms mostly have bad AC. I think the Giant Crab has an AC of 15, which is the highest. Seriously, without Barkskin or a Wizard ally with a spare Mage Armor, Wildshape forms are really easy to hit after level 5. So most of the advantages I can see of being able to cast without somatic and verbal components in Wildshape form are fairly situational unless maybe if you are playing in a low level aquatic campaign and the DM isn't expecting you to be able to use Tidal Wave while a dolphin. Or something??
I'm playing a Moon Druid and I can see several huge advantages to being able to cast while wild shaped.
Casting spells while wild shaped into a tiny beast like a rat or a mouse isn't that different from casting spells while you're under [Tooltip Not Found] which is a 4th level spell that requires Concentration
Renewing a Concentration spell like Barkskin while wild shaped is an incredible bonus over having to drop your wild shape, cast the spell, and then use your second wild shape
Being a full caster in wild shape form let's you use the wild shape's HP pool and Constitution score instead of yours and druids, dropping out wild shape form to cast spells is a huge limitation on both of those
I'd almost never be in human form if my Moon Druid could cast spells while wild shaped!
I'm playing a Moon Druid and I can see several huge advantages to being able to cast while wild shaped.
Casting spells while wild shaped into a tiny beast like a rat or a mouse isn't that different from casting spells while you're under [Tooltip Not Found] which is a 4th level spell that requires Concentration
Renewing a Concentration spell like Barkskin while wild shaped is an incredible bonus over having to drop your wild shape, cast the spell, and then use your second wild shape
Being a full caster in wild shape form let's you use the wild shape's HP pool and Constitution score instead of yours and druids, dropping out wild shape form to cast spells is a huge limitation on both of those
I'd almost never be in human form if my Moon Druid could cast spells while wild shaped!
I don't know which spell you are referring to under [Tooltip Not Found].
I should note that the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell does not allow to you ignore Material components of spells. Many spells, like Barkskin, have a material component. And to correct myself, Web also has a material component, so it would probably not be allowed even if a DM allowed Subtle Spell to be used by a 'Shaped Druid. That still imposes some major limits on the flexibility of casting this way.
The ability to cast spells from within a wildshape is an 18th-level class feature, which is a compelling reason not to house rule that you can do it with subtle spell.
RAW is clear that druids cannot cast spells in wildshape without that feature, and subtle spell doesn't change that, but if we're discussing the narrative reasons for that restriction, I would interpret it as the wildshape interfering with whatever connection to nature that allows the druid to cast their spells. By 18th level, that connection is so strong that wildshape can't break it, and separately and additionally, the druid can cast their spells without verbal or somatic components (a benefit that applies to their normal form as well).
With all due respect to the hard work that the devs put in to making the game (no easy task), I'm going to say that not everything they put in the books are balanced. The Healing Spirit spell is a good example. Ridiculously overpowered for a 2nd level spell when used out of combat. The Beastmaster Ranger would be another example. Very much underpowered without very intentional power gaming by the player to pick just the right animal companion, buy barding, choose the right feats, etc. So it would be nice to hear some explanation for why they chose level 18 versus level 15 or level 12. Part of the reason I opened this topic is to discuss How exactly having some degree of spell-casting for the 'Shaped Druid prior to 18th level would be overpowered. Or not. Taking 3 levels in Sorcerer certainly puts the character a spell level behind a pure Druid build, for instance.
The Healing Spirit spell is a good example. Ridiculously overpowered for a 2nd level spell when used out of combat.
True, but the designers have said that out of combat healing is so easy to come by that encounters are designed for players starting at max health (I don't remember if the exact quote is in regards to "full resources" or just "full health"). If you want to spend your second level slots on out of combat healing, then fine. The game is not perfectly balanced, but most of the places where there is an imbalance are due to unforeseen consequences of a design decision.
How exactly having some degree of spell-casting for the 'Shaped Druid prior to 18th level would be overpowered.
Because, for example, moon druid is balanced around combat in form. a moon druid that could cast would break the balance between moon and other druid subclasses: a druid that could cast in form would be nearly as useful of a caster as a land druid, but would also be a formidable melee opponent. You get all of the advantages of being a moon druid as well as most of the advantages of another subclass (being useful as a combat caster). This is clearly a foreseeable imbalance, so the ability is given at a very high level, where that sort of balance matters far less.
How exactly having some degree of spell-casting for the 'Shaped Druid prior to 18th level would be overpowered.
Because, for example, moon druid is balanced around combat in form. a moon druid that could cast would break the balance between moon and other druid subclasses: a druid that could cast in form would be nearly as useful of a caster as a land druid, but would also be a formidable melee opponent. You get all of the advantages of being a moon druid as well as most of the advantages of another subclass (being useful as a combat caster). This is clearly a foreseeable imbalance, so the ability is given at a very high level, where that sort of balance matters far less.
"Break the balance" so far just seems to mean "it was not designed that way." I'm asking for Examples of how this type of combination of Metamagic and Wildshape would actually be much more powerful that a full caster of the same total level. Keep in mind that the Moon Druid Sorcercer would have to be 1.5 spell levels behind them to do this.
Look, obviously, nobody would do a multi-class between two classes with such different ability score requirements unless there was some kind of useful advantage. For most people, that is the main reason for multi-classing at all. The question is not, as you say, advantages to being a moon druid as well as utility of another class. That is a desired result for Any multi-classing. A high level Sorcadin has way more resources to smite with a plain Paladin. A Shadow Monk/Devil's Sight Warlock can lock down opponents in a movable field of magical darkness that is impossible for the pure Shadow Monk.
As such, the pertinent question is: HOW this mixture of classes is demonstrably Much more powerful that a pure Druid, pure Wizard or a pure Cleric of the same total level?
Since Subtle spell allows a Sorcerer to cast spells without verbal or somatic components, what would be the consequence of allowing a multi-classed Sorcerer 3/Druid X be able to cast certain spells while in Wildshape?
For the sake of the argument, let's say that the thematic reason why non-18th level Druids cannot cast spells while in beast form is b/c it takes them a long time to learn how to do the gestures and vocalizations needed for spells to happen. Creatures have very different voice boxes and lips than humanoids and also lack the manual dexterity to handle things like crochet needles or a quill.
So my questions are:
A) To what extent would this make for creative new ways to use spells at lower tier games?
B) To what extent would playing a multi-attribute caster class like this break the action economy or power scale?
RAW, we have the following to consider:
Wild Shape Restriction
You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
RAW, Subtle Spell would not let you cast in Wild Shape, as the Wild Shape restriction is ALL spells, not just ones with somatic or verbal components.
As a DM though, I would allow it, maybe with an increased sorcery point cost or limited uses.
The player would be giving up the wild shape attack actions to cast a spell. So they main benefit they would get is more HP, a different AC, and special qualities.
The main game breaking thing would be doing it while an owl or other thing with a fly speed.
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Right, I'm aware of that. So I'm asking IF the reason that Druids cannot cast in Wildshape, is b/c of an in-narrative reason (lack of human-like voice box and clumsier or lack of hands) rather than a meta-gaming reason (b/c the rules just say so!) what are the likely consequences?
The biggest risks of abuse I see is that the creatures they are wild shaped into will have a better AC, and so it would be harder to knock them out of concentration; or they have a fly speed or other exotic form of movement that makes them harder to hit, so they can sling spells from range with impunity.
The reasons I think are probably a little of both. You are an owl, owls don't cast spells. Also, casting spells from 60 feet in the air is OP.
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By 8th level sorcerers have access to Fly and Levitate though. So they can already cast spells from 60 feet in the air quite easily.
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Both of which require concentration. A wild shape fly speed does not.
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Hmmm, okay, so your owl-shaped Druid can fly without concentration...at level 8. Add the 3 levels it took in Sorcercer to be able to cast spells via Metamagic. So at minimum, that's an 11th level character. I think by then a lot of encounters will include foes with flight and dangerous spell attacks at range. That seems to me a significant, but still very situational advantage.
Don't most beasts have pretty bad AC? I think with a +1 Dex, leather armor, and a shield, a druid will have better AC in caster form than in most beast forms.
Not that I'm an expert on this subject (which is why I'm broaching it here), but I could also see a Druid 'Shaped into a regular sized spider stealthing into the enemy's lair and casting the Web spell on a group of guards. Then use the Message cantrip to inform her allies that it's now okay for the party to enter the room. Follow this up with casting Quickened Absorb Elements on herself. If enemies are still in the Web, she can drop in the Web herself and light it up with Produce Flame on the next round. Effective, but not really OP.
Yeah, its not going to be game breaking, especially if they are fighting anything with a fly speed like a dragon, which could leave the druid isolated in a 1v1. Its just what the main concern would be.
As I said in my original post, I would allow it as a DM.
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@WolfoftheBees - Right. Beast forms mostly have bad AC. I think the Giant Crab has an AC of 15, which is the highest. Seriously, without Barkskin or a Wizard ally with a spare Mage Armor, Wildshape forms are really easy to hit after level 5. So most of the advantages I can see of being able to cast without somatic and verbal components in Wildshape form are fairly situational unless maybe if you are playing in a low level aquatic campaign and the DM isn't expecting you to be able to use Tidal Wave while a dolphin. Or something??
I would argue that if the flying speed were such an issue for a caster class, then the Aarakocra wouldn't be a playable race.
I'm playing a Moon Druid and I can see several huge advantages to being able to cast while wild shaped.
I'd almost never be in human form if my Moon Druid could cast spells while wild shaped!
Professional computer geek
To be fair, many DMs do not allow Aarakocras PCs in low level campaigns.
I don't know which spell you are referring to under [Tooltip Not Found].
I should note that the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell does not allow to you ignore Material components of spells. Many spells, like Barkskin, have a material component. And to correct myself, Web also has a material component, so it would probably not be allowed even if a DM allowed Subtle Spell to be used by a 'Shaped Druid. That still imposes some major limits on the flexibility of casting this way.
The ability to cast spells from within a wildshape is an 18th-level class feature, which is a compelling reason not to house rule that you can do it with subtle spell.
RAW is clear that druids cannot cast spells in wildshape without that feature, and subtle spell doesn't change that, but if we're discussing the narrative reasons for that restriction, I would interpret it as the wildshape interfering with whatever connection to nature that allows the druid to cast their spells. By 18th level, that connection is so strong that wildshape can't break it, and separately and additionally, the druid can cast their spells without verbal or somatic components (a benefit that applies to their normal form as well).
With all due respect to the hard work that the devs put in to making the game (no easy task), I'm going to say that not everything they put in the books are balanced. The Healing Spirit spell is a good example. Ridiculously overpowered for a 2nd level spell when used out of combat. The Beastmaster Ranger would be another example. Very much underpowered without very intentional power gaming by the player to pick just the right animal companion, buy barding, choose the right feats, etc. So it would be nice to hear some explanation for why they chose level 18 versus level 15 or level 12. Part of the reason I opened this topic is to discuss How exactly having some degree of spell-casting for the 'Shaped Druid prior to 18th level would be overpowered. Or not. Taking 3 levels in Sorcerer certainly puts the character a spell level behind a pure Druid build, for instance.
I would not allow it at all. But if you limited it to non-concentration spells it probably wouldn't be too broken.
True, but the designers have said that out of combat healing is so easy to come by that encounters are designed for players starting at max health (I don't remember if the exact quote is in regards to "full resources" or just "full health"). If you want to spend your second level slots on out of combat healing, then fine. The game is not perfectly balanced, but most of the places where there is an imbalance are due to unforeseen consequences of a design decision.
Because, for example, moon druid is balanced around combat in form. a moon druid that could cast would break the balance between moon and other druid subclasses: a druid that could cast in form would be nearly as useful of a caster as a land druid, but would also be a formidable melee opponent. You get all of the advantages of being a moon druid as well as most of the advantages of another subclass (being useful as a combat caster). This is clearly a foreseeable imbalance, so the ability is given at a very high level, where that sort of balance matters far less.
"Break the balance" so far just seems to mean "it was not designed that way." I'm asking for Examples of how this type of combination of Metamagic and Wildshape would actually be much more powerful that a full caster of the same total level. Keep in mind that the Moon Druid Sorcercer would have to be 1.5 spell levels behind them to do this.
Look, obviously, nobody would do a multi-class between two classes with such different ability score requirements unless there was some kind of useful advantage. For most people, that is the main reason for multi-classing at all. The question is not, as you say, advantages to being a moon druid as well as utility of another class. That is a desired result for Any multi-classing. A high level Sorcadin has way more resources to smite with a plain Paladin. A Shadow Monk/Devil's Sight Warlock can lock down opponents in a movable field of magical darkness that is impossible for the pure Shadow Monk.
As such, the pertinent question is: HOW this mixture of classes is demonstrably Much more powerful that a pure Druid, pure Wizard or a pure Cleric of the same total level?