There's a serious issue with an aspect of the tortle that was not clearly enough written.
It has to do with natural armor. There are numerous players contending that one can use Unarmored Defense as a tortle. This frankly makes no sense, given that you cannot remove the shell, which gives you the base AC and prohibits you from using dex as an AC modifier. A FAQ or errata needs to be issued.
A second, less serious, issue has to do with the phrase "ill suited to wearing armor'. Players interpret this as NOT preventing the tortle from wearing armor. Which, of course, is silly, given that the rules do not provide you with a 'plus' by armor type, they provide you with an AC. So adding leather armor over your shell does not increase your armor class. I am sure some might argue you should be able to drape chain over the shell. But chain provides you with a base AC, not a bonus to your AC. This should have been written to preclude the tortle from wearing armor, not that it's merely difficult.
A tortle's natural armor is an AC calculation. Unarmored Defense is an AC calculation. You cannot use more than one AC calculation at a time. Therefore, you cannot use Unarmored Defense and a tortle's natural armor at the same time. However, there is nothing keeping you from using Unarmored Defense instead of your natural armor.
This should have been written to preclude the tortle from wearing armor, not that it's merely difficult.
Why write a rule to preclude Tortles from wearing armour, when it's not needed? If someone wants to play a Tortle that wears some custom suit of armour, knowing there is no game benefit, then let them!
As Matthias noted above, AC calculations don't stack.
Whether that be the Tortle's natural armour, the unarmoured defence ability, or wearing physical armour - only one of these can be chosen to calculate AC with.
Ah, but there IS something that prohibits you from using Unarmored defense. You CANNOT remove the tortle shell. And the shell prohibits you from using Dex as an AC bonus.
Ah, but there IS something that prohibits you from using Unarmored defense. You CANNOT remove the tortle shell. And the shell prohibits you from using Dex as an AC bonus.
No, the shell prevents you from adding your Dex modifier to your tortle natural armor AC.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Ah, but there IS something that prohibits you from using Unarmored defense. You CANNOT remove the tortle shell. And the shell prohibits you from using Dex as an AC bonus.
Natural armor, like regular armor, is an AC calculation. However, it doesn't count as wearing armor so Unarmored Defense is still valid. And Unarmored Defense is another AC calculation. Whenever you have two valid AC calculations in effect, you get to choose which one you use. There is nothing that says the Tortle cannot benefit from unarmored defense.
Also note that Shell Defense stacks with whichever AC calculation you choose because it is a bonus and not a calculation.
Kerrigan, gold dragonborn pact of the chain fiend warlock (8)/favored soul sorcerer (3): Survived Strahd Roland Crowe, stout halfling pirate (7): off working other angles while the party fights giants Alekhine Dorvanellyn, eladrin bladesinger (7): Fighting giants
I think the way to look at this, is how all the other natural armor PC races work
In this instace we can look at the lizardfolk:
You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield’s benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
and for noting the tortle rules:
Due to your shell and the shape of your body, you are ill-suited to wearing armor. Your shell provides ample protection, however; it gives you a base AC of 17 (your Dexterity modifier doesn’t affect this number). You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
Now the reason Tortle sys no adding DEX to the value is for normal AC calculation (not given by class proficiencies or armor) you would add DEX to a base value. While I know some people say the ill suited to wearing armor prevents you from wearing it I would argue that rule comes from the " You gain no benefit from wearing armor," part.
As for unarmored defence, spell effects, etc. These are seperate armor calaculations looking at the PHB
"Characters wear armor or carry shields, however. Without armor or a shield, your character’s AC equals 10 + his or her Dexterity modifier. If your character wears armor, carries a shield, or both, calculate your AC using the rules in chapter 5. Record your AC on your character sheet. Your character needs to be proficient with armor and shields to wear and use them effectively, and your armor and shield proficiencies are determined by your class. There are drawbacks to wearing armor or carrying a shield if you lack the required proficiency, as explained in chapter 5. Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use."
I would argue with neither Lizardfolk or Tortle saying otherwise you can always choose to use alternate calculations rather than your natural armor. Both due to no where it saying as such also due to the fact everyone else has a base "natural armor" equivalent in the AC 10+DEX calculation. Now the key thing to now something i will note for everyone, is this they must choose at any point which AC calculation they are using meaning if they choose unarmored defence at the point it is better then AC17 any other race could have reahed that point so it does not effect balance.
Also at worst as you are DMs most likely as you are arguing your ruling take precedence over everything including the rulebook and as such it doesnt really matter.
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Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/6/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 1 Hexblade Warlock
So just to be clear the Constitution bonus from unarmored defense for a barbarian would not apply
It would have been better to start a new thread than to dig this back up. However, barbarian unarmored defense of 10+dex modifier+con modifier+ a shield is valid, assuming that your DM rules it so. Essentially, the tortle natural armor is a built in Splint Armor without the strength requirement or disadvantage on stealth checks. The only non-magical armor that provides better AC is Plate since all other armors max at 17 (or lower) with their respective dex bonuses.
I personally think that not gaining a benefit from armor is saying that the AC 17 doesn't change if you are wearing anything less than plate or some sort of magical armor that would provide a better AC regardless of the character wearing it. However, I would have that conversation with my DM before selecting a tortle to ensure that my expectations of the character are the same as what theirs would be in that regard.
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There's a serious issue with an aspect of the tortle that was not clearly enough written.
It has to do with natural armor. There are numerous players contending that one can use Unarmored Defense as a tortle. This frankly makes no sense, given that you cannot remove the shell, which gives you the base AC and prohibits you from using dex as an AC modifier. A FAQ or errata needs to be issued.
A second, less serious, issue has to do with the phrase "ill suited to wearing armor'. Players interpret this as NOT preventing the tortle from wearing armor. Which, of course, is silly, given that the rules do not provide you with a 'plus' by armor type, they provide you with an AC. So adding leather armor over your shell does not increase your armor class. I am sure some might argue you should be able to drape chain over the shell. But chain provides you with a base AC, not a bonus to your AC. This should have been written to preclude the tortle from wearing armor, not that it's merely difficult.
A tortle's natural armor is an AC calculation. Unarmored Defense is an AC calculation. You cannot use more than one AC calculation at a time. Therefore, you cannot use Unarmored Defense and a tortle's natural armor at the same time. However, there is nothing keeping you from using Unarmored Defense instead of your natural armor.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Ah, but there IS something that prohibits you from using Unarmored defense. You CANNOT remove the tortle shell. And the shell prohibits you from using Dex as an AC bonus.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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That's a fascinating ruling, considering it allows you to completely ignore the prime physical characteristic of the tortle.
One can now be a tortle without having to be a tortle, except when one wants to occasionally.
Kerrigan, gold dragonborn pact of the chain fiend warlock (8)/favored soul sorcerer (3): Survived Strahd
Roland Crowe, stout halfling pirate (7): off working other angles while the party fights giants
Alekhine Dorvanellyn, eladrin bladesinger (7): Fighting giants
I think the way to look at this, is how all the other natural armor PC races work
In this instace we can look at the lizardfolk:
You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield’s benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
and for noting the tortle rules:
Due to your shell and the shape of your body, you are ill-suited to wearing armor. Your shell provides ample protection, however; it gives you a base AC of 17 (your Dexterity modifier doesn’t affect this number). You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
Now the reason Tortle sys no adding DEX to the value is for normal AC calculation (not given by class proficiencies or armor) you would add DEX to a base value. While I know some people say the ill suited to wearing armor prevents you from wearing it I would argue that rule comes from the " You gain no benefit from wearing armor," part.
As for unarmored defence, spell effects, etc. These are seperate armor calaculations looking at the PHB
"Characters wear armor or carry shields, however. Without armor or a shield, your character’s AC equals 10 + his or her Dexterity modifier. If your character wears armor, carries a shield, or both, calculate your AC using the rules in chapter 5. Record your AC on your character sheet. Your character needs to be proficient with armor and shields to wear and use them effectively, and your armor and shield proficiencies are determined by your class. There are drawbacks to wearing armor or carrying a shield if you lack the required proficiency, as explained in chapter 5. Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use."
I would argue with neither Lizardfolk or Tortle saying otherwise you can always choose to use alternate calculations rather than your natural armor. Both due to no where it saying as such also due to the fact everyone else has a base "natural armor" equivalent in the AC 10+DEX calculation. Now the key thing to now something i will note for everyone, is this they must choose at any point which AC calculation they are using meaning if they choose unarmored defence at the point it is better then AC17 any other race could have reahed that point so it does not effect balance.
Also at worst as you are DMs most likely as you are arguing your ruling take precedence over everything including the rulebook and as such it doesnt really matter.
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/6/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 1 Hexblade Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
So just to be clear the Constitution bonus from unarmored defense for a barbarian would not apply
It would have been better to start a new thread than to dig this back up. However, barbarian unarmored defense of 10+dex modifier+con modifier+ a shield is valid, assuming that your DM rules it so. Essentially, the tortle natural armor is a built in Splint Armor without the strength requirement or disadvantage on stealth checks. The only non-magical armor that provides better AC is Plate since all other armors max at 17 (or lower) with their respective dex bonuses.
I personally think that not gaining a benefit from armor is saying that the AC 17 doesn't change if you are wearing anything less than plate or some sort of magical armor that would provide a better AC regardless of the character wearing it. However, I would have that conversation with my DM before selecting a tortle to ensure that my expectations of the character are the same as what theirs would be in that regard.